Jump to content


Photo

The book thread: In memory of Pete Fenelon


  • Please log in to reply
7751 replies to this topic

#3501 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,580 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:32

This month's Vintage Racecar carries a full review of "Sunset on Kyalami", the first of a 3 part history of that circuit, covering 1961 to 1971. Apart from a detailed race by race account, it also features hundreds of colour and b/w photographs taken by Brian Bennett, one of the co authors, who was track scrutineer for 20 years. It also has photos of unusual local cars and the many specials which competed. Most photos are previously unpublished. It looks useful and suitably niche/specialist to warrant shelf space
At R420/ $US54 plus post it is available from mkegel at worldonline dot co dot za
I am advised that the all-in airmailed price to UK is Rand660 - about £45
Phone no and address available.
Usual disclaimers
Roger Lund.

Advertisement

#3502 HDonaldCapps

HDonaldCapps
  • Member

  • 2,482 posts
  • Joined: April 05

Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:58

Originally posted by David M. Woodhouse
Unrelated, but relevant: the new Joel Finn book American Road Racing: 1948-1950 is very, very good, continuing the groundwork laid in his book on the 1930s. There is a great deal of material on the major players of the time, Erwin Goldschmidt, Alec Ulmann, Briggs Cunningham, etc., and much insight into the exclusionary policy of the early SCCA days, plus many photos I have not previously seen. I talked to Finn at Amelia Island and he says that the next book is well underway.


I wish I had been able to catch Joel Finn's presentation in Watkins Glen at the IMRRC earlier this month, but the schedule was packed to the breaking point. One thing that the Finn book does is fill in a gap that only recently has been drawing any real attention -- American road racing in the immediate post-war years. While more familiar than most with this period, there were a number of photographs and other tidbits of information that got my attention. This is a very important book in that it is only place you will find so much of this information in one glump and get an appreciation of how it developed and grew. I think this is one of those books that will end up sitting on the "Ready Shelf" as I call it, one of those you keep handy since you know you will be referring to it on a frequent basis.

Finn accumulated so much information that there will be at least one additional book on the formative years of American road racing. I am looking forward that one as well since there are quite a few stories to be told from those years.

I have to put in a word for Bill Green, the fine historian of the IMRRC. As stated in the acknowledgements by Finn, Bill was an important source of research assistance for this book. I give great credit to Finn for knowing who the right "go-to" guy was for this book. I think that this makes the book the valuable resource that it is, Finn being able to draw upon those resources at the IMRRC and several other places which kept the materials so they would be available years later.

It ain't cheap, but it is worth it....

#3503 fines

fines
  • Member

  • 9,647 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 27 May 2008 - 17:35

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
I think this is one of those books that will end up sitting on the "Ready Shelf" as I call it, one of those you keep handy since you know you will be referring to it on a frequent basis.

"Ready Shelf", I like that! :up: At my home, it's called "the floor", though... :lol: :blush:

#3504 Herbert

Herbert
  • Member

  • 340 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 29 May 2008 - 23:12

If you`re interested in the history of the Avus race track in Berlin, a new book was released recently. It has a lot of unpublished images and very readable text with a lot of information. And there are results of all races held at the track from Motorcycling or F3 to F1 or the Treser TR1-Cup in which Tom Kristensen participated in 1988.

http://www.amazon.de...e/dp/3768824527

#3505 Tom V

Tom V
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 31 May 2008 - 12:43

Hello,

Has any every bought a book from this place?

toadhallbook

I thought they were ok until I recently placed an order. I wanted Janos Wimpffen's "Open Roads and Front Engines" instead they sent me "Spyders and Sillhouettes", a book I already have. I understand people can make mistakes but when I try to contact them I get no reply at all. I have sent them 3 ! emails already over the past 2 weeks and didn't get any reply at all.

If there is anyone here who has had the same problems with this shop please contact me.

#3506 fbarrett

fbarrett
  • Member

  • 1,000 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 31 May 2008 - 16:49

Tom:

Hi, I'm Frank Barrett, owner and evidently the chief-error-maker at Toad Hall Motorbooks! Sorry for your problem, and sorry your e-mails never reached me. Please ship the book back with a note, and I will immediately ship you the correct book; in fact, I'll get it on the way now, without waiting for you to return the book. If you would like to e-mail me directly, please try fbarrett@aol.com or call me at 303/237-0911.

#3507 kayemod

kayemod
  • Member

  • 7,175 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 31 May 2008 - 16:53

Originally posted by fbarrett
Tom:

Hi, I'm Frank Barrett, owner and evidently the chief-error-maker at Toad Hall Motorbooks! Sorry for your problem, and sorry your e-mails never reached me. Please ship the book back with a note, and I will immediately ship you the correct book; in fact, I'll get it on the way now, without waiting for you to return the book. If you would like to e-mail me directly, please try fbarrett@aol.com or call me at 303/237-0911.


Very impressive! The POWER of TNF.

#3508 Mallory Dan

Mallory Dan
  • Member

  • 2,673 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 03 June 2008 - 11:31

Simon Arron kindly donated, as he usually does, some books at the Northern TNF meet recently. I picked up the Roger Smith one, "F1 Analysis", I think its called. Anyone else seen it? Very interesting read, it uses masses of stats from F1 Championship events between 1950-2007, to come up with some conclusions on best driver, closest era etc etc. One of these is that, in his view (and I agree), the Schumacher/Ferrari domination 2000-04 just about killed F1 as a spectacle...

#3509 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 10,834 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 03 June 2008 - 11:41

But he hasn't been there since 2006!

Have you watched it recently, Dan?

#3510 M Needforspeed

M Needforspeed
  • Member

  • 184 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 03 June 2008 - 12:06

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Simon Arron kindly donated, as he usually does, some books at the Northern TNF meet recently. I picked up the Roger Smith one, "F1 Analysis", I think its called. Anyone else seen it? Very interesting read, it uses masses of stats from F1 Championship events between 1950-2007, to come up with some conclusions on best driver, closest era etc etc. One of these is that, in his view (and I agree), the Schumacher/Ferrari domination 2000-04 just about killed F1 as a spectacle...



yes, I have a signed book by him since February .This book is a huge work, but sadly, here,and without even knowing the contents, some criticized the initiative .It has killed this book, far too soon .

I can understand that we can ' t compare the eras, but , as I said in another thread ("who the best driver of all time" or something like this, started at TNF quite Two month abo ) , this book is worth every penny.

This book , though still a new release, should be reconsidered ;imagine Roger has took on his spare time, to compile all these statistics, and he put new insights on new criterias on it . :eek:

here , for instance, what Michael Oliver said on the Clark /Senna thread about this book;He his one that is positive to this book .

Originally posted by Michael Oliver


Gentlemen,

You need to get your hands on a new book which has recently come out. It is called 'Analysing Formula 1' by Roger Smith. He has spent his life analysing statistics, working for the well-known research firm AC Nielsen, and has come up with a very interesting set of conclusions, which I won't spoil by revealing on this forum. But he looks at the top guys by every possible measure and then combines it all into an all-time ranking at the end. His results are based purely on facts, not perceptions, unlike another book which has recently come out on a similar theme...

Michael










#3511 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 03 June 2008 - 13:47

:wave: Which way you ever look at it , statistics is needed for getting various overviews. Dealing with eras etc, is the same , looking over the years and dealing with statistics and the like my self , I believe there are still a lot who thinks the champ is the one who wins most races ..........whatever way you look at it this book by Roger Smith sure is a hell of a work and brings some other views on the table . Any F1 freak ought to buy it to have a look and get confirmation of your thoughts or in some examples get surprised , and in other see that there are other ways to look at it...........it belongs in any F1 library !No regrets here for bying it !

:up: :smoking:

#3512 Mallory Dan

Mallory Dan
  • Member

  • 2,673 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 03 June 2008 - 14:47

Originally posted by Barry Boor
But he hasn't been there since 2006!

Have you watched it recently, Dan?


No Barry I must admit its 4-5 years or so since I watched a full GP on telly. And after Max has got off today, I suspect that it'll be along time since I do again, quite disgusting, and symptomatic of the
Power Politics/Money/Hype/General BS involved in it now.

TNF is much more interesting, and populated by genuine and decent people.

#3513 Flat Black

Flat Black
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 03 June 2008 - 19:15

I'm looking for a book that I used to check out from the local public library but is no longer on the shelves. If anybody can help me find it, it's you lot. Problem is, I don't know the author or the title.

Here's what I do know:

1. The book is a large work, primarily pictorial, and is about the Indy 500.

2. It was published ca. 1977-1981.

3. The book is a chronological, year-by-year, race-by-race historical account of the Indy 500 beginning with the first race in 1911.

Any clues?

#3514 Jim Thurman

Jim Thurman
  • Member

  • 4,155 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 03 June 2008 - 19:29

Originally posted by Flat Black
I'm looking for a book that I used to check out from the local public library but is no longer on the shelves. If anybody can help me find it, it's you lot. Problem is, I don't know the author or the title.

Here's what I do know:

1. The book is a large work, primarily pictorial, and is about the Indy 500.

2. It was published ca. 1977-1981.

3. The book is a chronological, year-by-year, race-by-race historical account of the Indy 500 beginning with the first race in 1911.

Any clues?

Sounds like "The Indianapolis 500" by Jack C. Fox.

Was each yearly entry two pages? Did it have a small write-up of the race at top of left page with small black & white photos of each car in the race for each year?

#3515 Flat Black

Flat Black
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 03 June 2008 - 19:53

I don't think so, Jim. IIRC, each race entry was a bit longer than two pages, and the description of the race was fairly substantial. Also, I don't recall the small B&W photos of all the cars that you mention.

It seems as though each race/chapter had an evocative heading. I remember that for 1973 it was "Fire, Water, Death," for instance. Then there was a large photo on the right page (I think) and the race commentary commenced on the left page.

#3516 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 37,169 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 03 June 2008 - 21:07

Originally posted by ensign14
Hitler's Motor Racing Battles by Eberhard Reuss

Anyone read this? Seen it in shops, looks very interesting, some of the politics involved both pre- and post-war.

Book of the Month in Octane. Hmmm.

#3517 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,041 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 03 June 2008 - 21:37

Originally posted by ensign14

Book of the Month in Octane. Hmmm.

Just ordered a copy. Various German friends were complimentary about it when it first came out there, but I felt it was a bit beyond my schoolboy German. :rolleyes:

I've also ordered Todd Gould's "For Gold and Glory", which I don't think has been discussed here. It's the book from a PBS programme made about six years ago:

http://www.pbs.org/forgoldandglory/

AFAIK never broadcast outside the US :

#3518 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,330 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 03 June 2008 - 22:09

Reuss's book is absolutely absorbing. I take minor issue with some of it but overall I think it's a terrific piece of work, well researched and extremely illuminating in all kinds of hitherto quite shadowy nooks and crannies. The explanatory footnotes ending each chapter, which enlarge upon various subjects and personalities, are particularly rich and absolutely absorbing. I thoroughly recommend it; only a little salt need be sprinkled...just here and there. Oh yes - and I CANNOT quite understand why Reuss's painstaking work has so ticked off some of the industry hagiographers. The photo content is generally p--- poor, but then this is a volume produced down to a price.

DCN

#3519 helioseism

helioseism
  • Member

  • 1,429 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 03 June 2008 - 22:40

With regards to the question by Flat Black, maybe it was "The Indianapolis 500 - A Complete Pictorial History", by John and Barbara Devaney, published in 1976 by Rand McNally. I'll check my copy for the 1973 report when I get home tonight and let you know if it is as you recall.

Advertisement

#3520 Jack-the-Lad

Jack-the-Lad
  • Member

  • 1,388 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 03 June 2008 - 22:58

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Reuss's book is absolutely absorbing. I take minor issue with some of it but overall I think it's a terrific piece of work, well researched and extremely illuminating in all kinds of hitherto quite shadowy nooks and crannies. The explanatory footnotes ending each chapter, which enlarge upon various subjects and personalities, are particularly rich and absolutely absorbing. I thoroughly recommend it;

DCN


Well, a motorsports writer/historian couldn't dream of a better endorsement from a more highly regarded source,.....and a strong enough one for me to buy the book on DCN's say-so alone.

Jack.

#3521 Flat Black

Flat Black
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 04 June 2008 - 02:22

helio,

I'm 99% sure that's it. Thank you very much! Now I've just gotta get my hands on a copy of it.

#3522 helioseism

helioseism
  • Member

  • 1,429 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 04 June 2008 - 02:59

Flat Black -- yup, that's it. The 1973 report is just as you remember. There are currently 14 copies available on abe.com: link

#3523 mark f1

mark f1
  • Member

  • 1,886 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 04 June 2008 - 03:37

I have the more recent Autocourse History of the Indy 500. Anyone have both books that could compare them? For my only passing interest in the Indy 500 history, the Autocourse book met my needs perfectly.

Mark

#3524 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,088 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:26

Originally posted by Flat Black
helio,

I'm 99% sure that's it. Thank you very much! Now I've just gotta get my hands on a copy of it.


I found my copy 20 years ago in a bookshop in Maastricht (NL, close to Spa). Ever since enjoyed to have a quick look through come may.
Often a good reference, sometimes missing some details you are looking for (all books do this). Rand McNally & Company NY 1976; 286 pages; ISBN 0528818449

Posted Image

<---- This must make me this weeks "poster of the smallest pic on TNF"!?

#3525 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 04 June 2008 - 14:33

:wave: I am looking for "the" book on Jaguar E racing in the 60s. Have I overlooked something or are their no "real" racing books ? :smoking:

PS. I do have the Andrew Whyte 2 volume books.

#3526 Flat Black

Flat Black
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 04 June 2008 - 14:34

Just purchased a copy of the Devaney book on Ebay for 15 bucks. Can't wait for it to arrive. Thanks gentlemen!

:up:

#3527 petefenelon

petefenelon
  • Member

  • 4,815 posts
  • Joined: August 02

Posted 04 June 2008 - 17:11

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Simon Arron kindly donated, as he usually does, some books at the Northern TNF meet recently. I picked up the Roger Smith one, "F1 Analysis", I think its called. Anyone else seen it? Very interesting read, it uses masses of stats from F1 Championship events between 1950-2007, to come up with some conclusions on best driver, closest era etc etc. One of these is that, in his view (and I agree), the Schumacher/Ferrari domination 2000-04 just about killed F1 as a spectacle...


I saw it and didn't buy it - statistics are statistics; history is history; sport is sport. You can give me all the data you like on closeness, domination, etc. but you can't change the emotional reaction to sport. Nothing is ever going to convince me that F1 from the return of refuelling has been anything other than a sterile marketing exercise between megacorporations.

Objective analyses can tell you someone's average qualifying position, inside leg, salary, and the number of times he beat a yellow car when driving a purple one.

It doesn't tell you anything about Greatness. Greatness is nothing to do with numbers. Chris Amon was Great, but he never won a championship GP so in the eyes of the statisticians he's "less great" than Giancarlo Baghetti; Ralf Schumacher has won several GPs but he comes across as having all the personality, charm, and ability to "tiger" of a damp handkerchief.

Similarly anyone trying to tell me that the Eagle was "only as Great as" the Stewart SF3 because they both won one GP will meet with short shrift. The Eagle is a symphony in sound and sculpture that sends shivers down my spine; the Stewart is a pointy little thing with a whiny engine.

And don't even start me on "Greatness" being measured only by the World Championship. Anyone who won at Solitude is Great, full stop. End of discussion.;)

Pick the right set of data and you can 'prove' anything you like. I'd sooner see the raw data and please myself with my own conclusions than someone else's subjective analysis of it! (After all, isn't that what Excel is for - turning numbers into spurious conclusions to be fed to higher management?;) - sigh, you can tell who's been working on business plans lately!)



#3528 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 04 June 2008 - 20:30

oh yes Pete , the Toulo book has a few transporter pics , among the very few , there are however with a couple of lines 2 from 1950 when the Plate cars were "dumped" into the ship due to wire fault , after the Richmond Tr. at Goodwood , and instead one of their molested cars were flown to Sweden ! :smoking:

#3529 René de Boer

René de Boer
  • Member

  • 400 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 05 June 2008 - 17:50

Not about any book in particular, but during my visit to Pau for the WTCC and Formula 3 Euro Series last weekend, I discovered a nice little shop specialised in motoring and aviation literature and automobilia, "Motors Mania". Beautifully located near the Chateau in the historic district of Pau's city centre, really worth while a visit. Oh yes, they have a website too, and are regular exhibitors at both Rétromobile and Techno Classica. I couldn't help but include a little impression on my own Dutch motorsport website:

Link

And yes, I spent some money there as well, but not too much, 'cause I had to carry it all on the plane. How good I am travelling to Le Mans next week by car!

#3530 Flat Black

Flat Black
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 05 June 2008 - 18:12

If you'll forgive a digression, how did you like Pau? Me and the ball n' chain are thinking about taking a vacation there, or in Carcassonne. Somewhere in the French Pyrenees.

#3531 M Needforspeed

M Needforspeed
  • Member

  • 184 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 05 June 2008 - 19:53

Originally posted by Flat Black
If you'll forgive a digression, how did you like Pau? Me and the ball n' chain are thinking about taking a vacation there, or in Carcassonne. Somewhere in the French Pyrenees.


You are lucky cause I have been so many times at the Pau GP I can tell a little about the interest around .If you like moutain and all related to moutain activities, Pau is near Pyrenees, and you can go to the seaside with the Highway that is not so far .Pau itself, is well located with some places of interest.

Biarritz city and what we call the " Pays Basque " are also places of interest, with a green looking, quiet rivers shore to fish ,and charming houses .If you like caves , too, many of interest are not far from Pau .

regarding the motoring side, profit to be there to visit PAU ARNOS one of the lesser known French track, but
with a very interesting layout .Perhaps, you can have a ride on the track, with reservation .Arnos is 20 minuts only from Pau downtown .

I remember in the meddle Eighties, prior to the Pau F 3000 GP, some teams used to stop at Arnos, to set the car, though the layout isn 't really like the city track.

Finally, do you know that Pau, if we don 't count the Indy brickyard, is certainly the oldest track in the world which didn 't change his layout and distance .(As far as 1930,that 's 78 Years back, the track hasn 't changed in its shape, except some
of minor importance near the Parc beaumont ) So this non- permanent track, still used today for the GT world championships , become really an historic icon of Motor Racing.


Michel

#3532 René de Boer

René de Boer
  • Member

  • 400 posts
  • Joined: October 02

Posted 05 June 2008 - 20:38

Originally posted by Flat Black
If you'll forgive a digression, how did you like Pau? Me and the ball n' chain are thinking about taking a vacation there, or in Carcassonne. Somewhere in the French Pyrenees.


Can strongly recommend it. Nice surroudings, good cuisine. Pau itself is quite nice and there are many places of interest around as well. To me, as a devout catholic, nearby Lourdes made a very big and lasting impression (there is more in the world than just motor racing) and I spotted a well-known WTCC works driver with his wife there as well. San Sebastian is not too far and even Bilbao is within one and a half hours' drive, with the stunning Guggenheim museum.

#3533 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Nostalgia Forum Moderator

  • 24,041 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 05 June 2008 - 21:14

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Reuss's book is absolutely absorbing. I take minor issue with some of it but overall I think it's a terrific piece of work, well researched and extremely illuminating in all kinds of hitherto quite shadowy nooks and crannies. The explanatory footnotes ending each chapter, which enlarge upon various subjects and personalities, are particularly rich and absolutely absorbing. I thoroughly recommend it; only a little salt need be sprinkled...just here and there. Oh yes - and I CANNOT quite understand why Reuss's painstaking work has so ticked off some of the industry hagiographers. The photo content is generally p--- poor, but then this is a volume produced down to a price.

DCN

Received mine today. As might be expected (;)), I homed in on both the 1939 European Championship and the paint scratching story. Reuss goes into quite some detail on the 1939 Swiss GP, presenting a different viewpoint to the one propounded by Lang in his autobiography, one or two facts which I wasn't aware of and confirmation of a couple of others I'd found in German press sources - I feel another revision of "Unfinished Symphony" coming on .... :cool:

The paint scratching story has been updated for the English edition, taking into account last year's symposium.

Doug: surely you summed it up nicely with the word hagiographers? I haven't gone too deeply into the book yet, but it seems fairly obvious that Reuss is not a man to take anyone's word for anything without at least trying to find confirmation from another source. Perhaps it would be appropriate to quote Michael Ferner's current sig: "Facts are unpleasant things -- William Court".;) Maybe it's time for some "revisionism" ....

I agree on the photos - a fairly standard Haynes production; anyone who owns "Works MGs" or "Works Minis" will know the style - but they're by no means the most important bit of the book, so I can live with that. They're mostly very familiar to anyone who's studied the "Golden Era", but I suspect the publishers may also be targetting an academic market for this, where the illustrations would be less well-known.

#3534 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 37,169 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 05 June 2008 - 21:23

I have to say that photos in books like that are very much secondary to text. I KNOW what an Auto Union looks like! Rare shots of the likes of Geier or Baumer in the car are a different story of course. But I'd rather read a bit more - and from flicking through a bookshop copy it looks like there is plenty of food for thought.

#3535 Lifew12

Lifew12
  • Member

  • 4,551 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 06 June 2008 - 10:01

Originally posted by ensign14
I have to say that photos in books like that are very much secondary to text. I KNOW what an Auto Union looks like! Rare shots of the likes of Geier or Baumer in the car are a different story of course. But I'd rather read a bit more - and from flicking through a bookshop copy it looks like there is plenty of food for thought.


i have a nice shot of Geier in a Mercedes. Just thought i'd share that irrelevant point.

#3536 helioseism

helioseism
  • Member

  • 1,429 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 07 June 2008 - 01:18

New book from Palawan Pre$$, mentioned back in post 3127 of this thread, has been released:

Gullwing - The Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupé By Anthony Pritchard

http://www.palawan.co.uk/Gullwing.htm

#3537 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 07 June 2008 - 19:38

:clap: I recently got my example of Red-Hot rivals by Karl Ludvigsen . Hard bound , glazed paper ,336 pages with interesting comparison of many of the Maserati and Ferraris (in pairs) and excellent text/words and stories as to how etc. I have not read it throughly but you may add to that a host of pictures approx. as many as pages . I think I have seen a lot , but here is a lot more and ones not seen by me at least! Absolutely recommend to both Maserati and Ferrari fans as well as GP & Sports
enthusiast. Price tag OK! :smoking:

Question to the above book , page 210 , picture of Michel Poberejsky's Monza high in the air of a Fiat transporter , but what car is at the lower floor ??

At the same time I bought Karls fine "Classic Grand Prix Cars" at a crazy low price ! Get that too! :smoking:

#3538 Doug Nye

Doug Nye
  • Member

  • 8,330 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 10 June 2008 - 12:47

Originally posted by petefenelon


I saw it and didn't buy it - statistics are statistics; history is history; sport is sport. You can give me all the data you like on closeness, domination, etc. but you can't change the emotional reaction to sport. Nothing is ever going to convince me that F1 from the return of refuelling has been anything other than a sterile marketing exercise between megacorporations.

Objective analyses can tell you someone's average qualifying position, inside leg, salary, and the number of times he beat a yellow car when driving a purple one.

It doesn't tell you anything about Greatness. Greatness is nothing to do with numbers. Chris Amon was Great, but he never won a championship GP so in the eyes of the statisticians he's "less great" than Giancarlo Baghetti; Ralf Schumacher has won several GPs but he comes across as having all the personality, charm, and ability to "tiger" of a damp handkerchief.

Similarly anyone trying to tell me that the Eagle was "only as Great as" the Stewart SF3 because they both won one GP will meet with short shrift. The Eagle is a symphony in sound and sculpture that sends shivers down my spine; the Stewart is a pointy little thing with a whiny engine.

And don't even start me on "Greatness" being measured only by the World Championship. Anyone who won at Solitude is Great, full stop. End of discussion.;)

Pick the right set of data and you can 'prove' anything you like. I'd sooner see the raw data and please myself with my own conclusions than someone else's subjective analysis of it! (After all, isn't that what Excel is for - turning numbers into spurious conclusions to be fed to higher management?;) - sigh, you can tell who's been working on business plans lately!)


Pete for Premier. Brilliant. :smoking:

DCN

#3539 continental

continental
  • Member

  • 46 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 10 June 2008 - 13:57

Originally posted by helioseism
New book from Palawan Pre$$, mentioned back in post 3127 of this thread, has been released:

Gullwing - The Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Coupé By Anthony Pritchard

http://www.palawan.co.uk/Gullwing.htm


Received my copy today. It looks great, with lots of racing pictures. The additional 'book of cars', describing the history of all Gullwings is a very nice and interesting bonus. Well done Mr. Pritchard!

Advertisement

#3540 continental

continental
  • Member

  • 46 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 10 June 2008 - 14:10

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
:wave: I am looking for "the" book on Jaguar E racing in the 60s. Have I overlooked something or are their no "real" racing books ? :smoking:

PS. I do have the Andrew Whyte 2 volume books.


'Cat out of the bag', by Peter Wilson, is very nice.

#3541 Tony Lethbridge

Tony Lethbridge
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 10 June 2008 - 20:05

Has anyone ever come across a novel, Knowing Max by James Long? I read it about five years ago and enjoyed it. Before you ask, no, its not about that Max. The story involves a school boy who attends the Brighton speed trials and is captivated by a young woman who drives a Lister Jaguar. He returns the following year only to see the girl killed in an accident. In later life he comes across a old trunk belonging to the girl's boyfriend, Max. To cut a long story short he eventually tracks down the car, and discovers that it was wrecked while being used in a film about the Mille Miglia in north Wales. Clearly this was supposed to be 'The Green Helmet', and also triggered some vague memory about a mystery car. Has anyone else read 'Knowing Max', and did something strange happen during the filming of the 'Green Helmet'? Apologies if this has been discussed before but I did a brief check and nothing came up.

#3542 M Needforspeed

M Needforspeed
  • Member

  • 184 posts
  • Joined: December 02

Posted 10 June 2008 - 20:22

Originally posted by petefenelon


I
It doesn't tell you anything about Greatness. Greatness is nothing to do with numbers. Chris Amon was Great, but he never won a championship GP so in the eyes of the statisticians he's "less great" than Giancarlo Baghetti; Ralf Schumacher has won several GPs but he comes across as having all the personality, charm, and ability to "tiger" of a damp handkerchief.






I buy the Roger Smith book to see what criteria he introduced, and it is always to look at a method based on numbers.But numbers are completely unable to tell which take paddock bend or Clearways in the best and the most impressive way.

But I feel completely in phase with your remarks .We must admit and witnesses statistics can do nothing to help appreciate Chris Amon achievements .Only by looking at him race during 4 consecutives laps at Clermont Ferrand, Solitude and Brands hatch showed any "serious" spectator the driver is great....And statistic will never care of what any given spectator has witnessed alone , that will be kept in his heart and that he will not have the possibility to share with others.

And this, evidently,apply to others drivers...

#3543 Tom V

Tom V
  • New Member

  • 26 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 10 June 2008 - 20:28

Originally posted by fbarrett
Tom:

Hi, I'm Frank Barrett, owner and evidently the chief-error-maker at Toad Hall Motorbooks! Sorry for your problem, and sorry your e-mails never reached me. Please ship the book back with a note, and I will immediately ship you the correct book; in fact, I'll get it on the way now, without waiting for you to return the book. If you would like to e-mail me directly, please try fbarrett@aol.com or call me at 303/237-0911.


I just wanted to mention that everything got sorted out between me and Toad Hall Motorbooks, I received a copy of Open Roads yesterday. Frank Barett did everything he mentioned above. So I am after all a happy costumer :)

#3544 David Beard

David Beard
  • Member

  • 4,886 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 10 June 2008 - 20:50

Originally posted by petefenelon


I saw it and didn't buy it - statistics are statistics; history is history; sport is sport. You can give me all the data you like on closeness, domination, etc. but you can't change the emotional reaction to sport. Nothing is ever going to convince me that F1 from the return of refuelling has been anything other than a sterile marketing exercise between megacorporations.


Absolutely Pete...but judged against what I paid for this book, I thought it was absolutely brilliant. :)

#3545 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 37,169 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 10 June 2008 - 21:16

And occasionally statistics might open the eyes to something not so obvious...after all, there's this constant myth that Mario only won the title in '78 cos Ronnie followed him all the time...it's just not true. Even a brief analysis blows that particular story out of the water.

#3546 Bjorn Kjer

Bjorn Kjer
  • Member

  • 3,623 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 11 June 2008 - 05:15

:wave: I like to WATCH a race , to READ about it and the whole season when over, but I also DO statistics to accompany my views and thoughts , in the end the whole lot doesnt change , so Amon and others are easy to remember IMO. I am aware that none of your "for or against statistics "goes after Roger Smith , so I still think he did an excellent and a bit different job with that book , which by the way does not talk about "greatness" but only about cool facts. Like it or not!

#3547 dewittereus

dewittereus
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 11 June 2008 - 17:21

Originally posted by bradbury west
This month's Vintage Racecar carries a full review of "Sunset on Kyalami", the first of a 3 part history of that circuit, covering 1961 to 1971. Apart from a detailed race by race account, it also features hundreds of colour and b/w photographs taken by Brian Bennett, one of the co authors, who was track scrutineer for 20 years. It also has photos of unusual local cars and the many specials which competed. Most photos are previously unpublished. It looks useful and suitably niche/specialist to warrant shelf space
At R420/ $US54 plus post it is available from mkegel at worldonline dot co dot za
I am advised that the all-in airmailed price to UK is Rand660 - about £45
Phone no and address available.
Usual disclaimers
Roger Lund.


I have been trying to contact Mr. Kegel via email. But had no response sofar. Any suggestions about other sources? Must say I have not looked yet at Chater's website. But books about South African racing are most of the times hard to (such as the book about the Springbok Series, or the one about John Love).

#3548 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 4,580 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 11 June 2008 - 18:10

I understand that he is in the process of sorting out a wholesale distributor to manage distribution for him, which will make things easier in due course. He told me that my copy went off via airmail last week so I will report when it arrives. I am not sure where his e mail/computer is based, office etc and I think he is fairly busy earning a living. I have telephoned him and found him a most obliging person. For obvious reasons I am reluctant to post his 'phone no. on a public forum. ZA is a couple of hours forward from the UK, so should be the same time zone for much of Europe, so calling is at a reasonable time.
If you want his number pls contact me. I am happy to forward a scan of the book review from VR.
Usual disclaimers
Roger Lund.

#3549 helioseism

helioseism
  • Member

  • 1,429 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 11 June 2008 - 19:55

You might try this link to order "Sunset On Kyalami".

#3550 raceannouncer2003

raceannouncer2003
  • Member

  • 2,225 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:31

Martin Rudow has finished his new book on Pacific Northwest sports car racing in the 60s, called "Weekends of Glory". He will apparently have a launch for the book at the Historic Races at Pacific Raceways, Kent, Washington on the July 4-6 weekend. The launch will be on the Friday. Here is a link to the webpage:

http://www.rspubs.com/ls/index.asp

Vince H.