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#1 David Birchall

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 17:50

A friend here in Vancouver has spent the past three years or so compiling chassis lists, with histories, of all the Porsche four cam cars: From the 550 Spyders through the Carrera Coupe's and the RSKs and 904s. Is anybody else working on a similiar project?

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#2 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 08:44

Not exactly similar but slightly overlapping. I'm working through the 1957-1960 1500cc F2 trying to sort out the various cars described as a 550 or a 1500RS or a RSK or a 718 and use the correct model numbers. Close enough?

Allen

#3 David Birchall

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 16:00

Close enough that I think I should put you two in touch :D

#4 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 16:19

I am trying to put some more info together on the 904 Carrera GTS car , I know there is a chassis list , but that wont do for me only ! :smoking:My second task then is the RSK and RS60/61 , but now........

#5 dbw

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 18:04

try warren eads at spydersport.com

#6 john ruston

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 18:47

Use the Two 904 books as basis.There are four in Uk including 079 Filipiniti car.Irvine Laidlaw has the works 6 cyl car ,Bill Stevens what has to be the most original of them all and james Corner,a French example that he used on this years Tour Auto,There is a start

#7 D-Type

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 19:44

I find it surprising that nobody has yet published a Porsche Spyder list - after all Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, and Lotus have been covered together with some more obscure makes like Buckler.

#8 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 20:02

So could anyone give me a beginners guide to all 550/1500RS/RSK/718 Porsches?

I know the true F2 car, the 718/2, was a centre-seat open-wheel version of the sports 718 but I'm a lot less clear on all the others.

#9 David Birchall

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 21:02

Originally posted by D-Type
I find it surprising that nobody has yet published a Porsche Spyder list - after all Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Maserati, and Lotus have been covered together with some more obscure makes like Buckler.


I hope that my friend will comment on all this shortly.

#10 TEJ

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 21:05

Have a look at this http://www.race-cars...ty/porscher.htm

#11 Alan Cox

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 21:14

Originally posted by John Ruston
There are four in Uk including 079 Filipinetti car.



Does this one no longer belong to the Porsche Museum?

As discussed in this recent thread http://forums.autosp...166#post2789166

#12 john ruston

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 06:07

Alan
Its been in UK for past year.Understand Mags will be asking you about it this weekend.Its with Pace Motorsport and Martin Greves

#13 David Birchall

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 03:42

I was surprised to learn that registrations for this Bulletin Board are closed, consequently I have been asked to post the following from Bob LeFlufy who has been working for several years now on histories of the various Porsche 4 cam cars:


I have been working on a potential book project, attempting to document the history of all of the Porsche 550 and 718 Spyders, by chassis number, with individual histories for each car, and their present location and condition.

While there is no shortage of written material on the cars generally, I have not been able to locate any such detailed information. A number of people around the world have data bases including some of the cars, however I have not found any published information that attempts to be comprehensive. May of the existing repositories of information are proprietorial and so not forthcoming with information.

Such information exists for 904s, partially for 906s and for Carrera Speedsters, but no 550/718 reference books.

What began as a hobby remains so, but has attracted some interest from potential publishers, and while that in itself is not going to be a commercial success for me, it does seem worthwhile from an historic/enthusiast point of view. I am hoping to publish mid 2008.

Any information on individual cars would be gratefully received, and if anyone wants specific information on a particular chassis number I am happy to oblige. I am not anxious to widely share the list as such, for obvious reasons, but will share information on specific cars.

Along the way, I have been more casually collecting information on the other 4 cam cars, and 906s. My data there is not as exhaustive but is slowly growing. Fist the Spyders, then who knows?

Cheers

Bob LeFlufy
1939 Rufus Drive
North Vancouver, BC
Canada
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E-mail Blfhbob@shaw.ca



#14 David Birchall

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 03:47

Further from Bob Leflufy:

For your Porsche F 1 guy, here is a quick summary of the F2 and F 1 designs from Porsche, Chief Designers names included


Porsche

1957: Porsche 550 1500RS (F2) - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1958: Porsche 718 RSK (F2) - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1959: Porsche 718/2 (F2) - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1961: Porsche 787 - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1962: Porsche 804 - Hans Honich (CD)
The 550 RS and RSK entries represent some sports cars that Porsche entered as F 2 cars, on their way to designing and building the true single seaters Types 787 and 804. There were very few true single seaters ever built, and the only two I knowof outside the factory are at the Wheatcoft Museum, an ex Stirling Moss car, and in Reno, the only points paying F 1 win, driven by Gurney at The Fremch Grand Prix, Rouen, in I think 1961.


Porsche AG
Dr Ing F Porsche KG ('57-'59, Barth '60)
Porsche System Engineering ('60-'62)



1962: Bonnier, Gurney (P Hill)
1961: Bonnier, Gurney, Herrmann
1960: Barth, Herrmann
1959: Von Trips
1958: Barth
1957: Maglioli, Barth
1962: Porsche 804, 718
1961: Porsche 718, 787
1960: Porsche 718
1959: Porsche RSK, 718
1958: Porsche RSK
1957: Porsche 550RS

#15 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 08:20

Originally posted by David Birchall
... that registrations for this Bulletin Board are closed ...

Are they? Are you sure?

Thanks for posting the note from Bob. I will get in touch with him egaridn the early F2 cars.

Allen

#16 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 12:28

:wave: Allen , you missed a "g" in "egraridn" :wave:

#17 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 12:28

You win! :blush: Honestly I never noticed it before :kiss: This should have been post 19 , but saving space.....

#18 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 22:02

Wow! That is a new record even for my lejendry misspeling.

I think there's an 'r' and a 'g' missing from 'regarding'.

#19 Racer.Demon

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 13:42

Originally posted by David Birchall
Further from Bob Leflufy:

For your Porsche F 1 guy, here is a quick summary of the F2 and F 1 designs from Porsche, Chief Designers names included


Porsche

1957: Porsche 550 1500RS (F2) - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1958: Porsche 718 RSK (F2) - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1959: Porsche 718/2 (F2) - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1961: Porsche 787 - Wilhelm Hild (CD)
1962: Porsche 804 - Hans Honich (CD)
The 550 RS and RSK entries represent some sports cars that Porsche entered as F 2 cars, on their way to designing and building the true single seaters Types 787 and 804. There were very few true single seaters ever built, and the only two I knowof outside the factory are at the Wheatcoft Museum, an ex Stirling Moss car, and in Reno, the only points paying F 1 win, driven by Gurney at The Fremch Grand Prix, Rouen, in I think 1961.


Porsche AG
Dr Ing F Porsche KG ('57-'59, Barth '60)
Porsche System Engineering ('60-'62)



1962: Bonnier, Gurney (P Hill)
1961: Bonnier, Gurney, Herrmann
1960: Barth, Herrmann
1959: Von Trips
1958: Barth
1957: Maglioli, Barth
1962: Porsche 804, 718
1961: Porsche 718, 787
1960: Porsche 718
1959: Porsche RSK, 718
1958: Porsche RSK
1957: Porsche 550RS


This looks like information taken straight from 6th Gear, so I assume Allan is well versed in that, erm, regard. ;)

Anyway, I'm interested as well, if only for our soon-to-be-launched Carel Godin de Beaufort tribute site, which could do with a broad view on the succession of several Spyder cars from Porsche.

As a management summary here's what I know:

- 550 RS: the original ladder-framed Spyder
- 550A RS: the improved version with a space-frame
- 718 RSK: the race-bred Spyder (in non-RS guise the 550s were road-going cars as well)
- 718 RSK central-seat: its most famous example is the Colotti-built Behra version
- 718/2: the works single-seater RSK F2 derivation (usually known in Grand Prix circles as '718')
- 718 RS60: the 1960 update
- 718 RS61: the 1961 update for which a Coupé version was developed as well, which had an outward liking to the 356-based Carrera Abarth GTL
- 718 W-RS: open-top derivated from the RS61 Coupé, fitted with a 2-litre engine

The full-body 550, 550A and RSK were all driven as F2 cars as well.

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#20 D-Type

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 14:04

Originally posted by Racer.Demon

~
- 718 RSK central-seat: its most famous example is the Colotti-built Behra version
- 718/2: the works single-seater RSK F2 derivation (usually known in Grand Prix circles as '718')
~

The full-body 550, 550A and RSK were all driven as F2 cars as well.

I think the Colotti-built Behra Porsche should be classified as a design in its own right. Although it used many Porsche components it also incorporated a lot of Colotti elements. Given that it was produced in 1958 when the works were making the transition from the 550 to the 718 I suspect that a lot of the Porsche components would have been from the 550 although the engine was obviously of the 718 type.

Overall, this is a different machine from the centre seat 718 RSK 'Spyder' and the centre seat open wheeler 718/2 produced by the factory.

#21 Racer.Demon

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 14:31

Oh, I fully agree. That's what happens if you cut out too much detail...

#22 oldtimer

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 19:29

Out of interest, how many road going Carreras were built. I once had a 356SC, and after coming across the one and only Carrera I've ever seen, I could not help but wonder, and wonder, what that was like to drive with 50% more power than the 356SC.

Any comments out there about the Carrera coupe?

#23 Allen Brown

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 21:43

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
As a management summary here's what I know:

- 550 RS: the original ladder-framed Spyder
- 550A RS: the improved version with a space-frame
- 718 RSK: the race-bred Spyder (in non-RS guise the 550s were road-going cars as well)
- 718 RSK central-seat: its most famous example is the Colotti-built Behra version
- 718/2: the works single-seater RSK F2 derivation (usually known in Grand Prix circles as '718')
- 718 RS60: the 1960 update
- 718 RS61: the 1961 update for which a Coupé version was developed as well, which had an outward liking to the 356-based Carrera Abarth GTL
- 718 W-RS: open-top derivated from the RS61 Coupé, fitted with a 2-litre engine

The full-body 550, 550A and RSK were all driven as F2 cars as well.

Excellent Mattijs. Now we're getting somewhere.

Any idea what a 1500RS would be?

Allen

#24 David McKinney

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 22:11

I think European and US terms were different
A European list might be:
1500RS (covering all four 550 types)
RSK
RS60
RS61
I don't remember seeing '718' until post-period

#25 D-Type

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 22:12

1500 is its capacity and RS is the acronym for Rennsport so a 1500RS was one of the 550 or 550A cars.

The 1500 RSK or Type 718 RSK got its 'K' because of a K-shaped bit in the rear suspension and would never have been called a 1500RS.

#26 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 20:40

This is what I have:

1957

Umberto Maglioli in a '718RSK' at Posillipo in April. I guess this could have been an early centre-seat car.

Christian Goethals in a 550RS at Reims 14 July.

Edgar Barth and Umberto Maglioli in 'works' 550RS and Carel Godin de Beaufort in a private 550RS all at the 1957 German GP.

1958

Auguste Veuillet, Heinz Schiller and Anton von Dory in '1500RS' Porsches in French F2 races. Also Robert Buchet in a '550RS' entered by Veuillet.

Works Porsche 'RSK' for Jean Behra in at Reims 6 July and for Masten Gregory at Avus 21 Sep. Doug Nye identifies Behra's car as a works-prepared centre-seat car. I don't know if Gregory's was.

De Beaufort in a '718RSK' at the Dutch GP 26 May Possibly a centre-seat.

Edgar Barth in a '718RSK' and de Beaufort in a 500RS both at the German GP 3 Aug. I'd guess Barth's was a centre-seat.

1959

Lots of people racing cars described as '718RSK' or as 'RSK' - presumably all these are 718RSK with the '718' bit not always being used in period. The 718RSKs appear to have been all centre seat cars in 1959 (except Schell's LHD car at Pau) but I don't know about:

Christian Heins and Wolfgang Seidel at Siracusa 25 Apr
Harry Schell at Montlhéry 3 May
Ernst Vogel at Zeltweg 23 Sep
Harry Blanchard at Sebring 12 Dec

Also at Zeltweg were Franz Albert and Milivoz Bozic in '1500RS' Porsches.

1960

Christian Goethals in a Ecurie Eperon d'Or 'RSK', presumably the centre-seat 718RSK he raced at Pau in 1959.

Later on, Dawie Gous had a 'RSK' in South Africa.

#27 Racer.Demon

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 21:23

As far as I know 1500RS and 550RS are different names for the same car - the 550(A) Spyder.

The (718) RSK was introduced at Le Mans in '57, but the first centre-seat conversion happened in '58, AFAIK. So the Maglioli entry at Posillipo must have been a sportscar, as these were eligible for F2 as well.

The RSK that Beaufort used at the 1958 Dutch GP was probably on loan from the factory, as he was signed for a number of works drives in endurance races later in the year.

#28 Racer.Demon

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 21:48

Originally posted by David McKinney
I think European and US terms were different
A European list might be:
1500RS (covering all four 550 types)
RSK
RS60
RS61
I don't remember seeing '718' until post-period


One thing I just realised - are you strictly talking about sportscars here, David, as it looks like you do from the other cars on your list? How did the 718/2 F2 (and later F1) car appear on the contemporary Grand Prix entry lists?

#29 David McKinney

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 22:05

Yes, sportscars only
The centre-seat sportscars were, as far as I recall, sometimes called F2 RSKs, but even the open-wheeler version of 1959 (and 1960) was listed simply as Porsche F2, or more often just plain Porsche...

#30 D-Type

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 22:20

Wasn't there only one centre-seat RSK sports car? The car debuted by Behra at the 1958 Reims race and driven by Barth at the Nurburgring. I can't recall any other appearances.

The open-wheeled F2 car made its debut at Monaco in 1959 where Von Trips crashed it.

By 1960 the factory had at least three open-wheeled cars, driven at Solitude by Bonnier, Gurney and Hermann plus the one loaned to Rob Walker for Stirling Moss

#31 David Birchall

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 04:55

FROM BOB LEFLUFY:

To clear up some confusion, or add to it, the following information may be helpful;

It is incorrect to refer to all 550 Spyders as RS's, in fact the 550A or 1500 RS was a distinct model different in substantial ways from the 550.

550As were built from early 1956, in the chassis range 550 101 to 550 145. The RS nomenclature was never used for earlier 550 cars, at least by the factory. One sees this error made often, but it is an error.

Now RSKs and 60s and 61s were of design type 718, and the true single seat cars (Formula 2 and later, Formula 1 were design type 787 and 804. Not clear on how many of each of these "Formula cars" there were but, very few.

To refer to a 718 RSK as a single seater is slightly incorrect, they were all two seaters and a few were made convertible from center steering position to LHD cars. Took about 4 hours to convert one, was no big deal. Spyder freaks like me tend to refer to them as center steer cars. Jury is out for now, but it looks like they made about 7 of these. Confirmed center steer (convertible) cars were 718 007, 027, 028 030 and 033. I think RSK 718 001 and 002 perhaps only one, perhaps both ,may have been center steer cars as well. All the first five mentionned are present and accounted for, I think 001 and 002 may be at Porsche. The Behra F2 win at Rheims was in 007.


Finally I am unsure about the designation 718/2 but am researching that.

I stand willing to be corrected on just about anything I say, here or elsewhere. I am just a student, not the teacher.

Hope this helps

Bob LeFlufy

#32 Racer.Demon

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 07:50

Thanks to Bob for clearing up the '1500RS' issue. Yes, there are RS and non-RS 550s but I didn't know that '1500RS' only pertained to the 550A update, which was indeed significant. Being lighter and stronger, it was a much improved version of the ladder-frame 550. And didn't it also ditch the original swing-axle rear suspension that made the Auto Unions such a handful?

Were there any other non-factory RSK centre-seat conversions apart from the Behra/Colotti one?

And yes, I would be glad to know about the 718/2 designation for the F2/F1 car, if only for our Carel de Beaufort tribute site. There were five of those, 201 to 205, with 201 being the Walker/Moss car that was sold on to Carel. The others were works cars before 202 went to Filipinetti and then to Carel as well.

Finally, how 'new' was the 787 compared to the '718/2'?

#33 David Birchall

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 17:37

Bob LeFluffy just contacted me to let me know that he has a publisher for his book!
There is now a website devoted to the book and subject: www.spyderbook.net
The website has only just started but Bob hopes to fill it out a bit by the end of the week.
David B



#34 dbw

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 03:02

my old spyder[1956] had on it's chassis plate it read "550/1500RS/0048"...it was one of the original 91 550's, and not a 550A...my understanding was the four cam engines came in several tunes..GT, GS and RS..one could buy a 356 carrera coupe with a RS [rennsport]engine or a 550 with a GT [touring] engine and street trim.just my .02

#35 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 04:38

Originally posted by dbw
my old spyder[1956] had on it's chassis plate it read "550/1500RS/0048"...it was one of the original 91 550's, and not a 550A


Is this it?

http://www.motorspor...race/12883.html

Vince H.

#36 David Birchall

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 02:30

Originally posted by dbw
my old spyder[1956] had on it's chassis plate it read "550/1500RS/0048"...it was one of the original 91 550's, and not a 550A...my understanding was the four cam engines came in several tunes..GT, GS and RS..one could buy a 356 carrera coupe with a RS [rennsport]engine or a 550 with a GT [touring] engine and street trim.just my .02


DBW--Bob LeFluff really needs to speak with you.....

#37 dbw

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:56

raceannouncer; not my old car..not a real 550 in my opinion..bodys all wrong, pushrod engine..etc....my car was totally original down to the sandcast webers and steel/alloy 16" rims...

#38 dbw

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:10

just for fun..found my old state of california registration card..."date of issue;11/26/68".."licence number; RMJ177"..."body type; RDSP550"..."date first sold; 00/00/56"..."yr. model; 56"...

#39 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:10

Originally posted by dbw
not my old car...my car was totally original down to the sandcast webers and steel/alloy 16" rims...


Me again. Then I'll be quiet for a while (at least till something else interesting comes along!)

Was your car the one Duntov raced at Le Mans? What was its history?

Vince H.

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#40 dbw

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:58

all i know for sure is my car was raced at pebble beach back in the '50s by eldon beagle...after that it spent time at lukes and shoreman in berkeley calif....i sold it to a guy in florida and it ended up with john 'bat" masterson ...he ran it at monterey and as i recall it had by then acquired an international racing history...i think it went to switzerland after that...i dunno..i just used to drive it on the street to art school; it was, after all, just a used up old scca car nobody wanted...like an ex-girlfriend it would be nice to find out where it is now.

#41 mx906

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 12:40

Hi,

This post is intended for Bjorn and others that have expressed interest in 904s. I've written a book entitled "The Porsche 904, 906 & 910 In The Americas." It has been about five years in the making. It has 432 pages with close to 1000 photos. There are driver biographies, race-by-race coverage of events in North and South America where a 904, 906, or 910 was entered, and detailed chassis histories for about 90 individual cars (including about 50 904s and 904/6s). There is also a summary 904 Technical Bulletins and some discussion of the "replacement" 904s. If you are interested, you can find more information at www.sportscarracinghistory.com. The first copies will be shipped in December.

I'm also working on a similar book on the Spyders that should be out in 2008.

Thanks,
Jerry Pantis

#42 blfhbob

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 03:36

DBW

Tried to email you on the system here, it bounced back, could you drop me an email at

blfhbob@shaw.ca

Wanted some more information on your ownership of 550 Spyder 0048

Thanks

Bob

#43 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 07:58

Looking for an id , cannot show picture , Equipe Nationale Belge is there with at least Ferrari 250 GT , my target is a Porsche RS perhaps 1958-60 with 2 thin stripes (dark and pale) carrying no.2 !!!! Whose car , what race ? Any help please ? (could well be in France)

#44 Rosemayer

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Posted 28 December 2007 - 16:41

And for those who can't afford an origional.

http://chuckbeck904.com/

#45 David Birchall

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 21:44

I very much regret to inform you that Bob LeFlufy 'BlfhBob' here on TNF passed away on Friday following a very hard battle with lung cancer. This is the reason there has been no news of Bob's book for a while.

Before he died Bob searched for someone to complete his book on the racing 4 cam Porsche and found him in Seattle-just down the road-he is the son of Peter Hageman the Bentley expert and is himself an expert on Porsche. I am embarrassed to say that I don't know his first name but Bob was very happy that he has taken on the book. Hopefully the book will be completed soon.

Edited by David Birchall, 06 May 2009 - 02:54.


#46 D-Type

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 23:47

How sad to read that. My condolences to his family.

#47 fbarrett

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 00:50

Friends:

Having just re-read the early chapters of Karl Ludvigsen's Porsche, Excellence Was Expected, I suggest that you do likewise. The book contains myriad chassis numbers with accompanying details. Having created a fair list of chassis numbers (which I've passed along to Bob), I'd appreciate receiving first-hand knowledge of the history of any four-cam Porsche. Another interesting source of information on 904s is Jerry Pantis' book, The Porsche 904, 906, and 910 in the Americas.

Frank
Toad Hall Motorbooks
www.toadhallbook.com

Edited by fbarrett, 06 May 2009 - 00:55.


#48 fbarrett

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 00:55

I very much regret to inform you that Bob LeFluffy 'BLFHBob' here on TNF passed away on Friday following a very hard battle with lung cancer. This is the reason there has been no news of Bob's book for a while.


David:

Very sorry to hear that. I hope the book comes together in Bob's memory. If I can help in any way, please contact me.

Frank
303/237-0911
fbarrett@aol.com


#49 ERault

ERault
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Posted 06 May 2009 - 17:38

I am deeply sorry to hear the sad news. I hope his project lives on and make him proud.

#50 ERault

ERault
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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:39

I was wondering if someone has any news on the Spyder book project ?