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Will Coughlan and Stepney be banned from motorsports?


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#1 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 15:49

According to the last ruling:

"The WMSC will also invite Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan to show reason why they should not be banned from international motor sport for a lengthy period and the WMSC has delegated authority to deal with this matter to the legal department of the FIA."

Apparently I can't post (lengthy?) polls, so I ask your opinion. Will both be banned or only one of them?

I think Stepney has no chance, although he is not proven guilty of anything yet. He is still a very talented individual, and if he does not serve jail time in Italy, I suspect many teams could use his expertise. But really, at what expense? His image is seriously compromised. Unless he is innocent and was a victim of a complete set up by Ferrari, as I first heard Autosport's Tony Dodgins imply:

"The F1 grapevine is fast-moving and it's unlikely that Stepney's dinner with Coughlan or his May 9 meeting with Fry remained secret for long. Within a week came rumours in the Italian media that [/u]Stepney had sabotaged[/u] the Ferraris pre-Monaco. White powder had allegedly been found around the fuel tanks. I'm not implying anything, merely stating the chronology."

Well, Mr. Dodgins, by merely stating this, you did imply something was fishy with meeting with rivals -> sabotage story come up. I think this suggestion is completely despicable, but I've seen many say worse things of Ferrari. What do you guys think?


Coughlan, on the other hand, may very well be pardoned, if you think about it, that they could use the same reasons Mclaren was found guilty but not punished. According to FIA standards, it will be very difficult for anybody to gather evidence that he used the stolen information from the Ferrari F2007. Where would he use it, on his personal Caterham 7 (Or whatever else he has)? If there is no evidence he used it at Mclaren (that is why Mclaren was clear), then there will probably no way he used it anywhere else (Honda, for instance, or in his own car), so on this count, he is free to go. According to FIA, possessing carries no penalties. So the results of the hearing would probably read:

"The WMSC is satisfied that Mike Coughlan was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty."


Or, beyond possessing stolen info, do you think he could be found lacking in another count?

Sphere.

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#2 David M. Kane

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 17:41

Will banning them even be necessary?

#3 Peter Perfect

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 17:54

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Will banning them even be necessary?


True. If it's proved that both of them dealt in stolen documents why would any team trust them?

#4 kyriakos75

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 18:03

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S
Unless he is innocent and was a victim of a complete set up by Ferrari, as I first heard Autosport's Tony Dodgins imply:

"The F1 grapevine is fast-moving and it's unlikely that Stepney's dinner with Coughlan or his May 9 meeting with Fry remained secret for long. Within a week came rumours in the Italian media that [/u]Stepney had sabotaged[/u] the Ferraris pre-Monaco. White powder had allegedly been found around the fuel tanks. I'm not implying anything, merely stating the chronology."

Well, Mr. Dodgins, by merely stating this, you did imply something was fishy with meeting with rivals -> sabotage story come up. I think this suggestion is completely despicable, but I've seen many say worse things of Ferrari. What do you guys think?


I noticed that too. I wouldn't be surprised if I read that on a british tabloid, but I was very disappointed and disillusioned to see such BS on Autosport (like when I read this: "his mouth pursed into the shape of a cat's anus (his trademark paralinguistic trait when he's genuinely livid").

#5 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 18:10

Well, If I were Stepney or Coughlan I would I at least try to work in any FIA regulated championship, and for that I'd need to go and seek clearence from WMC. Their expertise is motoracing. What else they could do?

Unless they ignore FIA's championships (which dominates all Europe) and look for a job in America. Nascar, perhaps?

#6 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 18:13

Originally posted by kyriakos75


I noticed that too. I wouldn't be surprised if I read that on a british tabloid, but I was very disappointed and disillusioned to see such BS on Autosport (like when I read this: "his mouth pursed into the shape of a cat's anus (his trademark paralinguistic trait when he's genuinely livid").


Yes, I was disappointed too. But Ferrari is really hated among the British in general (that's why you wouldn't be surprise to read that in the tabloids - they must sell), and after this episode the level of hatred reached the level of exposing some journos bias.

#7 Peter Perfect

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 18:23

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


Yes, I was disappointed too. But Ferrari is really hated among the British in general (that's why you wouldn't be surprise to read that in the tabloids - they must sell), and after this episode the level of hatred reached the level of exposing some journos bias.


Surprised to see that Ferrari are hated in Britain. It's certainly not been my experience. Where have you seen that?

#8 Mauseri

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 18:26

Originally posted by Peter Perfect
True. If it's proved that both of them dealt in stolen documents why would any team trust them?

Well, one of them might have worked for the best interest of his team, even putting his personal career at stake.

It's nothing new, that a single person ends up as spit cup and the corporate washes it's hands.

#9 jimm

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 21:03

My feeling is that this is likely the only thing that most here will agree on is that they should be banned. Stepney especially. How can you let this guy back in motorsports (not that anyone would ever trust him). That is the problem with a traitor....the other side can't trust him either. This man may have been mad at Ferrari (what the hell did they do to him anyway?) but actually, nothing excuses his behavior and what he did which, it must be said, is less than he tried to do..... :down: Even if he serves no jail time he will be the OJ Simpson of racing.

#10 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 21:53

Originally posted by Peter Perfect


Surprised to see that Ferrari are hated in Britain. It's certainly not been my experience. Where have you seen that?


Hate is perhaps a too strong word, I don't know. But whatever it is, it is everywhere.
Oh everywhere, specially in the last coverage on the Mclaren spy affair. The British journalists (Brundle, Dodgins, etc) were all for Mclaren. I think for them F1 is mostly a British thing who take over the world. I am exaggerating for effect, but you should know that.

If you want anedotal evidence, I'd mentioned Jeremy Clarkson reviews between Ferrari's and the British cars. The classic one was the one with Damon Hill testing the F 550 and the Aston Martin DB 7. His concluding remarks were something along the lines of: "What English Gentleman with that kind of money would chose a Italian car over our finest, specially a Ferrari, is beyond me".

#11 EvilPhil II

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 22:07

I think what you mean is the modern Ferrari team, 1997 - Present, has been unloved by the British public in general because they are a bunch of moaning, bad loser, political, cheating, unsporting whingers...

#12 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 22:10

Originally posted by EvilPhil II
I think what you mean is the modern Ferrari team, 1997 - Present, has been unloved by the British public in general because they are a bunch of moaning, bad loser, political, cheating, unsporting whingers...

Well, it seems that if that is the criteria, Mclaren will be loathed for what, until 2017? Mclaren just outdone everything in Ferrari's past with the last "guilty of possessing stolen secrets no pushishment for using it in its cars".

#13 EvilPhil II

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 22:21

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S

Well, it seems that if that is the criteria, Mclaren will be loathed for what, until 2017? Mclaren just outdone everything in Ferrari's past with the last "guilty of possessing stolen secrets no pushishment for using it in its cars".


I dont think so mate. At least there drivers have always been free to race each other within reason.

#14 David M. Kane

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 22:28

Jimm:

There is a saying in sport and it related to business too, "if someone doesn't want to be here, let 'em go, they can only sour others within the group." This attitude of a contract is a bloody contract so we're holding you to it is what did Ferrari in. I hope they learned their, so far they haven't shown any signs of learning from this experience.

#15 EvilPhil II

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 22:40

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Jimm:

There is a saying in sport and it related to business too, "if someone doesn't want to be here, let 'em go, they can only sour others within the group." This attitude of a contract is a bloody contract so we're holding you to it is what did Ferrari in. I hope they learned their, so far they haven't shown any signs of learning from this experience.


Exactly. the one thing this trial shows is that this problem started with Ferrari acting unreasonably towards there employee. So they shot themselves in the foot and then as always they blame everyone else. I am sick of them to be honest, I wouldnt miss them if they left F1 tomorrow.

#16 Gareth

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 22:44

Originally posted by EvilPhil II


Exactly. the one thing this trial shows is that this problem started with Ferrari acting unreasonably towards there employee.

You're right: Stepney has shown that he is absolutely amazing and one of the best men in F1. Ferrari were fools to not promote him.

#17 as65p

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 23:05

Originally posted by Gareth

You're right: Stepney has shown that he is absolutely amazing and one of the best men in F1.


Well, he was seen exactly in that light until the end of 2006. Now suddenly he is a moron. I wonder what the tifosi will think of Ross Brawn, shoud he decide to work for another team in the future...

#18 scheivlak

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 00:01

Originally posted by as65p


Well, he was seen exactly in that light until the end of 2006. Now suddenly he is a moron. I wonder what the tifosi will think of Ross Brawn, shoud he decide to work for another team in the future...

I don't see Brawn trying to blackmail his current employer.

#19 as65p

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 07:28

Originally posted by scheivlak
I don't see Brawn trying to blackmail his current employer.


...and I don't expect him to in the future.

But neither would I have expected it of NS, once an integral part of the "dream team" and revered by the tifosi, who now seemingly turns out to be quite a **** - IF the allegations against him are true, which, however likely, is still not technically proven. Remeber he still claims innocence, and if he is, it wouldn't be "blackmailing" but rather him fighting with his back against the wall. Very unlikely, but not completely impossible.

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#20 Jerome

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:17

What I would like to FIA to do, is not neccesarily bann Coughlan and Stepney from motorsports, but formulate a kind of moral code how the knowledge-race between F1 teams should be run.

I think very few posters on Atlas, for example, feel that Coughlans posession of the 780 plus pages about the Ferrari was within the normal and moral realms of F1. However, suppose we would found out that Honda would hire photographers to covertly take pictures of Ferrari F1 cars at Fiorano? Is that considered to be normal and moral conduct? How about members of F1 teams tipping of other teams, just about the legality for instance, of one special component?

I feel rather puzzled by these questions, because I have discovered that unconsciously, I always assumed espionage was in a way ingrained in F1. The Coughlan-case showed me that ultimately, espionage can lead to real cases of betrayal, and criminal acts, even.

The basic question for mei is: In F1 you try to find out what the other guys are doing, and you should. But where do you draw the line?

#21 30ft penguin

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:19

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S
If you want anedotal evidence, I'd mentioned Jeremy Clarkson reviews between Ferrari's and the British cars. The classic one was the one with Damon Hill testing the F 550 and the Aston Martin DB 7. His concluding remarks were something along the lines of: "What English Gentleman with that kind of money would chose a Italian car over our finest, specially a Ferrari, is beyond me".


He sounds a bit different in more recent reviews - e.g. "for me, a Ferrari is a scaled-down version of God" ...

#22 Garagiste

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 12:20

And in previous ones - JC is a Ferrari worshipper.
In his old "Unleashed on cars" video his quest for the best car in the world ever included the line:
"It can't be the best car in the world because it's not a Ferrari", before he awarded the accolade to the 355.
You'll have to do better than that Sphere! Ferrari night not be worshiped by everybody in the UK, but they are only hated (or even mildly disliked) by a small number of F1 fanatics.

#23 Melbourne Park

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 13:11

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


Hate is perhaps a too strong word, I don't know. But whatever it is, it is everywhere.
Oh everywhere, specially in the last coverage on the Mclaren spy affair. The British journalists (Brundle, Dodgins, etc) were all for Mclaren. I think for them F1 is mostly a British thing who take over the world. I am exaggerating for effect, but you should know that.

If you want anedotal evidence, I'd mentioned Jeremy Clarkson reviews between Ferrari's and the British cars. The classic one was the one with Damon Hill testing the F 550 and the Aston Martin DB 7. His concluding remarks were something along the lines of: "What English Gentleman with that kind of money would chose a Italian car over our finest, specially a Ferrari, is beyond me".


Top gear is an English show, its not widely viewed in Italy, but the wonder is that Clarkson is of course a Ferrari nutto - he loves them totally. Hammond loves Zondas though - and who could blaim him? ;)
Its a shame Sphere does not understand much about what Clarkson thinks about English gentleman, the closest they have to one is James, and James car viewpoints are not Clarkson's, and many such references are ironic and fun, and not mean't to be anything close to decisive.

Sphere's incorrect view on Clarkson is just another example of how if a biased viewpoint is strong it leads to getting things totally wrong.

#24 WHITE

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 13:14

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
What I would like to FIA to do, is not neccesarily bann Coughlan and Stepney from motorsports, but formulate a kind of moral code how the knowledge-race between F1 teams should be run.

I think very few posters on Atlas, for example, feel that Coughlans posession of the 780 plus pages about the Ferrari was within the normal and moral realms of F1. However, suppose we would found out that Honda would hire photographers to covertly take pictures of Ferrari F1 cars at Fiorano? Is that considered to be normal and moral conduct? How about members of F1 teams tipping of other teams, just about the legality for instance, of one special component?

I feel rather puzzled by these questions, because I have discovered that unconsciously, I always assumed espionage was in a way ingrained in F1. The Coughlan-case showed me that ultimately, espionage can lead to real cases of betrayal, and criminal acts, even.

The basic question for mei is: In F1 you try to find out what the other guys are doing, and you should. But where do you draw the line?



Another question would be : who could claim being virtuous enough to draw the line ?

#25 Montoya1

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 13:14

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S

Mclaren just outdone everything in Ferrari's past with the last "guilty of possessing stolen secrets no pushishment for using it in its cars".



Total Crap! Unless you have evidence that McLaren used it? If you do then you had best get in touch with Todt who will love you forever.

I think it is typically simplistic of you and your ilk to sweepingly say that the British hate Ferrari. I used to be the biggest fan they could have but then they stopped being Ferrari in all but name and that passion died. This would have happened whatever nationality I was, and plenty of my countrymen still adore them - both the F1 team and the road cars.

And to compare what McLaren are embroiled in now with past Ferrari actions is ludicrious.

The Todt years and the antics of M Schumacher have changed Ferrari in many, many peoples eyes, and hearts, and that has nothing to do with nationality. It used to be if you heart beat faster for F1 racing them Ferrari, even if you supported other teams, were an integral (in fact vital) part of F1. If they left F1 now I would not miss them for a second. I would not miss McLaren either, but for totally different reasons.

#26 Melbourne Park

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 13:30

Originally posted by Montoya1



Total Crap! Unless you have evidence that McLaren used it? If you do then you had best get in touch with Todt who will love you forever.

I think it is typically simplistic of you and your ilk to sweepingly say that the British hate Ferrari. I used to be the biggest fan they could have but then they stopped being Ferrari in all but name and that passion died. This would have happened whatever nationality I was, and plenty of my countrymen still adore them - both the F1 team and the road cars.

And to compare what McLaren are embroiled in now with past Ferrari actions is ludicrious.

The Todt years and the antics of M Schumacher have changed Ferrari in many, many peoples eyes, and hearts, and that has nothing to do with nationality. It used to be if you heart beat faster for F1 racing them Ferrari, even if you supported other teams, were an integral (in fact vital) part of F1. If they left F1 now I would not miss them for a second. I would not miss McLaren either, but for totally different reasons.


For me, I am still trying to figure out the ex Schumacher Ferrari. So far I am confused, but I think Ferrari are too.

#27 JSDSKI

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 14:42

Coughlan: 1 year ban from FIA controlled motor sports (if guilty of espionage).
Stepney: 5 year ban (if guilty of sabotage), 1 year ban (if guilty of espionage), nothing (if framed)

Sabotage will be viewed as much worse than espionage because of the safety implications. Espionage is part and parcel of F1 culture and entertainment - why should they get more than any other person or company guilty of violating FIA reg's?

They will write books.

#28 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 14:43

Originally posted by 30ft penguin


He sounds a bit different in more recent reviews - e.g. "for me, a Ferrari is a scaled-down version of God" ...


Well, he got the money, but yet he bought a Mercedes SLK as his car, right? Strange then.

#29 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 14:48

Originally posted by Melbourne Park


(..) many such references are ironic and fun, and not mean't to be anything close to decisive.


No shit sherlock...that was my point about "anedotal evidence". Do you know what this means? It means it is not scientific, and it is not necessarily the personal view of the one who annouces it, me or Clarkson.


Sphere's incorrect view on Clarkson is just another example of how if a biased viewpoint is strong it leads to getting things totally wrong.


Clarkson joke was meant for an audience. It would make no sense otherwise. By saying that no self respect British would forgo an Aston for a Ferrari, it does not mean Clarkson himself agrees with that, in fact, he could be seen as criticizing a widely popular view: "Why don't you buy British, whenever you can?"

All my British friends buy Triumph, and their first argument is aways: "First of all it is good enough and it is British, need I say more?"


Dear God...

#30 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 14:50

Originally posted by Garagiste
And in previous ones - JC is a Ferrari worshipper.
In his old "Unleashed on cars" video his quest for the best car in the world ever included the line:
"It can't be the best car in the world because it's not a Ferrari", before he awarded the accolade to the 355.
You'll have to do better than that Sphere! Ferrari night not be worshiped by everybody in the UK, but they are only hated (or even mildly disliked) by a small number of F1 fanatics.


Yes, he liked the F355, but in his opinion, the later F430 was inferior to both Aston and Jaguar. He didn't even like the styling... :rolleyes:

Try again.

#31 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 14:55

Originally posted by Montoya1




And to compare what McLaren are embroiled in now with past Ferrari actions is ludicrious.


Tell me one instance where Ferrari went to the brink of banning from 2007 and 2008 champioships?

Austria 2002, 2005 Tire wars, TMD, nothing came close to this. Mclaren was guilty of having all the info necessary to build and test a F2007 car. What more do you want? That they didn't have time or the ability to use that information is irrelevant for the crime they were charged for.

The Todt years and the antics of M Schumacher have changed Ferrari in many, many peoples eyes, and hearts, and that has nothing to do with nationality. It used to be if you heart beat faster for F1 racing them Ferrari, even if you supported other teams, were an integral (in fact vital) part of F1. If they left F1 now I would not miss them for a second. I would not miss McLaren either, but for totally different reasons.


You are deliberatly confusing Schumacher's actions on the track with Ferrari management screw ups. No one here is saying that Hamilton or Alonso are cheaters, and vice-versa.

Tell me one thing remotely equivalent to this regarding Ferrari? There isn't any, unless it is only in your head. Mclaren outdone everything Ferrari did wrong in the past 20 years.

#32 Garagiste

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 14:56

His opinion, to which he's entitled? As a Marque I'd say he rates them above any other.

#33 riffola

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 14:58

Same Jeremy Clarkson almost died and went to heaven when Nick Mason of Pink Flyod let him drive his Enzo around their test track. That's when he said "for me, a Ferrari is a scaled-down version of God" (I think)

Top Gear are huge Ferrari fans, rightly so. They make good cars, yes some might have some flaws but on the whole they make good cars, especially in the past twenty years or so (in terms of reliability).

Back to the topic at hand, both NS and MC should get a lifetime ban if proven guilty. It's not like any top team is going to hire them anyway.

#34 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:05

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


No shit sherlock...that was my point about "anedotal evidence". Do you know what this means? It means it is not scientific, and it is not necessarily the personal view of the one who annouces it, me or Clarkson.


In the case of your example it clearly also means 'neither true, nor provable'.

#35 Montoya1

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:06

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


Tell me one instance where Ferrari went to the brink of banning from 2007 and 2008 champioships?

Austria 2002, 2005 Tire wars, TMD, nothing came close to this. Mclaren was guilty of having all the info necessary to build and test a F2007 car. What more do you want? That they didn't have time or the ability to use that information is irrelevant for the crime they were charged for.

You are deliberatly confusing Schumacher's actions on the track with Ferrari management screw ups. No one here is saying that Hamilton or Alonso are cheaters, and vice-versa.

Tell me one thing remotely equivalent to this regarding Ferrari? There isn't any, unless it is only in your head. Mclaren outdone everything Ferrari did wrong in the past 20 years.


You do love to type utter rubbish don't you?

Where is your proof that McLaren were on the brink of being thrown out? Not what you would like to see but hard evidence.

You may feel that what McLaren have done far worse than Ferrari in the last 20 years, but there are many who do not share that opinion. Ferrari have dragged F1 into the gutter so many times I have lost count.

As for Schumacher, I know my own mind and his actions are a massive part of why people are left cold by Ferrari.

#36 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:23

Originally posted by Montoya1


You do love to type utter rubbish don't you?

Where is your proof that McLaren were on the brink of being thrown out? Not what you would like to see but hard evidence.


You talk as if I take this out of these forum, or my own head. FIA itself stated that:

"But if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship."

So this was not a "rumor". If in the future somebody (could be desperate Coughlan) somehow find a way to prove Mclaren used the information, they are banned. Excluded, history. Not that I believe that this will happen, but I bet is better than anything you can remotely produce. Do you think FIA would ban Ferrari for Schumacher's antics? Or for team orders? Oh, wait, Mclaren was cought on tape doing that too...hummm

So tell me if somethig close to this EVER happened to Ferrari? You can't.

Now how can you compare the two?


You may feel that what McLaren have done far worse than Ferrari in the last 20 years, but there are many who do not share that opinion. Ferrari have dragged F1 into the gutter so many times I have lost count.

As for Schumacher, I know my own mind and his actions are a massive part of why people are left cold by Ferrari.



You talk as if Schumacher as the only reason why Ferrari was so dominant. Ferrari has a long story before Schuimacher, my friend. Of course it was vital to have the arguably the best driver ever to drive your cars, but Todt himself once said that if it were not for Schumacher, Barrichello could have taken the 2004 WDC.

You confuse both for your own convenience. Maybe you like that state of mind.

There are medicines to cure that though.

#37 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:30

Originally posted by Buttoneer


In the case of your example it clearly also means 'neither true, nor provable'.


Oh, I think it is true alright. It is one of those things so obvious that it is best proven by anedotal evidence.

The other day a British guy just posted here that "Ferrari are cars for pimps and snobs" or something like that. Another evidence.

The same "hate" directed at Ferrari I see a scaled down version applied to Honda and Toyota.

Benetton (and Briatore) was always viewed as an anomaly by the British press, a (clothing store making F1 cars? they don't even make their own clothes, subcontracting them from Asia!"), but I suppose many of you are too young to remember that.

Honestly, after this latest disgusting decision, I think more and more F1 is turning itself into a British only sport. I hope not.

#38 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:41

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S

The other day a British guy just posted here that "Ferrari are cars for pimps and snobs" or something like that. Another evidence.


Interestingly, a German of Austrian descent killed six million Jews, blacks, homosexuals, and disabled people some sixty-odd years ago. Surely evidence of the fact that Michael Schumacher is a serial killer?

Do you see how ridiculous these statements are? Where do the opinions of all the British Ferrari fans sit with you? Are they just all liars and fair-weather fans who are just waiting for the chance to denigrate Todt and his team? The British journalists who have clearly stated how wrong they believe the FIA ruling was? I'm guessing that they must be wrong too.

You need to step away from the keyboard and take a little breather.

#39 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:46

Originally posted by Buttoneer


Interestingly, a German of Austrian descent killed six million Jews, blacks, homosexuals, and disabled people some sixty-odd years ago. Surely evidence of the fact that Michael Schumacher is a serial killer?

Do you see how ridiculous these statements are? Where do the opinions of all the British Ferrari fans sit with you? Are they just all liars and fair-weather fans who are just waiting for the chance to denigrate Todt and his team? The British journalists who have clearly stated how wrong they believe the FIA ruling was? I'm guessing that they must be wrong too.

You need to step away from the keyboard and take a little breather.


That was supposed to be a humorous non-evidence, to which you last comment would apply.

I've got plenty of biased British Journalists to quote if you ask me. Read Autosport's Tony Dodgins, which is not a tabloid journo, in his latest column we find attack after attack, insinuation after insinuation directed at Ferrari. Search Sphere Dodgins, you'll find plenty there. I will not cite comprehensive evidence, of course you can't see what's in front of your eyes.

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#40 vsubravet

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:50

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


Oh, I think it is true alright. It is one of those things so obvious that it is best proven by anedotal evidence.

The other day a British guy just posted here that "Ferrari are cars for pimps and snobs" or something like that. Another evidence.

The same "hate" directed at Ferrari I see a scaled down version applied to Honda and Toyota.

Benetton (and Briatore) was always viewed as an anomaly by the British press, a (clothing store making F1 cars? they don't even make their own clothes, subcontracting them from Asia!"), but I suppose many of you are too young to remember that.

Honestly, after this latest disgusting decision, II think more and more F1 is turning itself into a British only sport. I hope not.


Not quite true about that bit. I can state confidently that F1 is increasing its presence in Asia, especially India. I can't give you the exact numbers but I'd be very surprised if there are less than 50 million F1 fans today in India; 5 years ago it'd been about 1-2 million and that is stretching it a bit. And a lot of F1 fans, in India, are Ferrari/MS fans but there are growing number of McLaren fans too - courtesy, FA and LH.

#41 vsubravet

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:56

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


That was supposed to be a humorous non-evidence, to which you last comment would apply.

I've got plenty of biased British Journalists to quote if you ask me. Read Autosport's Tony Dodgins, which is not a tabloid journo, in his latest column we find attack after attack, insinuation after insinuation directed at Ferrari. Search Sphere Dodgins, you'll find plenty there. I will not cite comprehensive evidence, of course you can't see what's in front of your eyes.


I think we tend to focus a bit more on the British media for obvious reasons (the home of the motorsport industry, atleast for F1) and English being the international language, the focus is very much on what the BRITISH MEDIA and the F1 English websites say or write about. I think if we were to sample the media in other languages, we should be able to get a fairly representative opinion. And even among the British media, not all are ganging up against Ferrari, I'm sure.

#42 Ralliart

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 15:59

Why would any F1 team want to hire either one of them? Both talented, of course, but hardly irreplacable. Five years from now they'll both have an opportunity to work in motorsports but I'd bet any F1 aspirations in the future remain just that.

#43 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:00

Originally posted by vsubravet


Not quite true about that bit. I can state confidently that F1 is increasing its presence in Asia, especially India. I can't give you the exact numbers but I'd be very surprised if there are less than 50 million F1 fans today in India; 5 years ago it'd been about 1-2 million and that is stretching it a bit. And a lot of F1 fans, in India, are Ferrari/MS fans but there are growing number of McLaren fans too - courtesy, FA and LH.


I didn't mean that it would be for British viewers only, but FIA is doing their best to promote Hamilton and the British Manufactures, apparently.

But of course there is hope. One day, Hyunday will be there with the others.

What i'd really love is the entrance Porsche, Alfa Romeo (I know, FIAT, but somebody else could buy it), Autounion. But not like Jaguar did, though, that was horrible.

#44 Buttoneer

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:05

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S

I've got plenty of biased British Journalists to quote if you ask me.


I'm asking.

#45 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:05

Originally posted by Ralliart
Why would any F1 team want to hire either one of them? Both talented, of course, but hardly irreplacable. Five years from now they'll both have an opportunity to work in motorsports but I'd bet any F1 aspirations in the future remain just that.


First, a ban from FIA, means a ban from WRC, DTM, BTCC, etc. Pretty much every form racing available, but NASCAR, IRL, etc.

If Coughlan is cleared as Mclaren was, what is so bad about him? He could be useful to Prodrive, Honda, Toro Rosso. Coughlan should ASK to be heard by FIA and await any evidence of use of the stolen information to be given by Ferrari. Since there's probably none that FIA would consider, he would be given the permision.

Unless you also think nobody would want to drive for Mclaren also...

#46 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:06

Originally posted by Buttoneer


I'm asking.


Don't hold your breath. I don't have time to change your mind, life is short, you know.

#47 vsubravet

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:08

More teams coming into F1 is always welcome for the sport. About FIA favouring the British manufacturers, I'd say they are more into the German, especially BMW, manufacturers. MM and the ex-BMW/GPMA Chairperson (?) Mr. Goeschel get along very well; there have been whispering innuendoes that most of the proposed rules for 2009, 2010 & 2011 favour BMW.

#48 wj_gibson

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:12

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


Don't hold your breath. I don't have time to change your mind, life is short, you know.


That rather suggests you lack the examples you were suggesting you could easily namedrop.

#49 as65p

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:13

Originally posted by SphereTL1000S


Don't hold your breath. I don't have time to change your mind, life is short, you know.


With close to a hundred posts a week, the time argument doesn't sound very credible, coming from you...

 ;)

#50 SphereTL1000S

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 16:14

Originally posted by wj_gibson


That rather suggests you lack the examples you were suggesting you could easily namedrop.


I told you about Tony Dodgins. It went unchallenged. Enough for now.