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Vettel to Toro Rosso


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#1 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 09:52

BMW has just released this statement:

The BMW Sauber F1 Team is allowing Sebastian Vettel to take the step into a Formula One cockpit. The 20-year-old from Heppenheim is being released to move to Scuderia Toro Rosso with immediate effect.

BMW Motorsport Director Mario Theissen explains: “As our test and reserve driver Sebastian has carried out sterling work for us. When he stood in for Robert Kubica in the USA Grand Prix he made history by becoming the youngest debutant to earn a world championship point. However, the current testing rules mean that he barely gets a chance to drive for us. Now he has been offered the opportunity to get inside a Toro Rosso cockpit. We have sponsored and coached Sebastian over a number of years. To place obstacles in his career path now would go against our concept of talent promotion.”

Theissen continues: “BMW and Red Bull have a longstanding partnership in supporting Sebastian. Toro Rosso is the sister team of Red Bull Racing, and in that context it makes sense for us to release him. In a sponsoring partnership the main thing is to use the best opportunities that present themselves to a young driver at any given time.”

Taking over the role of reserve driver for the BMW Sauber F1 Team will be Timo Glock, who is currently a test driver. The 25-year-old from Brensbach- Wersau is championship leader in the GP2 Series and would forgo a GP2 race should he have to step into the breach for the BMW Sauber F1 Team.


So is he testing or racing for them?

(more here)

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#2 Buttoneer

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 09:56

It says testing, so I assume it means testing. But that situation might only last until Speeds next DNF...

Edit: I note your source doesn't mention testing but Autosport does.



#3 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 09:58

Ah I see - there wasn't an Autosport story when I saw the release.

#4 Buttoneer

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:00

I can't think what reason your source might have for dropping that particular fact from the story other than to court controversy.

#5 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:05

No I'm just looking at the plain BMW release (quoted in full above).

The thing is, it talks about not standing in the way of his career. Well, he was already third driver at BMW, so in what sense is becoming third driver at a lesser team a step forward for his career?

That's what makes me think he'll be doing more than testing.

#6 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:08

ITV-F1 claims he's replacing Speed: http://www.itv-f1.co...spx?PO_ID=40208

#7 AFCA

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:09

That's what's more or less reported by AMuS yesterday...

#8 kismet

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:11

No no no... team kismet was going to adopt Scotty and now he's out? Very annoying that.

#9 AFCA

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:13

STR confirms it now.

#10 Ilaya

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:14

Plain and simple imo, Speed is out and Vettel is in, we just have to wait for the Toro Rosso press release.

Guess "Now he has been offered the opportunity to get inside a Toro Rosso cockpit." gave it away, because what would be the point from being a testdriver at BMW to being a test driver at TR.

#11 tidytracks

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:14

WELCOME HOME - VETTEL TO JOIN SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO

Scuderia Toro Rosso announces that as from the Hungarian Grand Prix, Sebastian Vettel will replace Scott Speed as the driver of car number 19.

Vettel will drive for the team in all the remaining rounds of the 2007 FIA Formula 1 World Championship.

Having joined the Red Bull Junior Team in his early karting years at the age of 12 and been guided by us and BMW through his Formula BMW and Formula 3 career, we now welcome Sebastian back to the Red Bull family.

#12 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:15

If everyone keeps moving up one...



:clap:

#13 bystander31

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:15

Excellent news :up: :up: All we need now is Bourdais to replace Tonio, Tonio can test for Red Bull for one year and then replace DC :up:

#14 Orin

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:16

Good news :up:

I've never been a fan of Speed. I wish Vettel well, it will be interesting to see how he compares to Liuzzi.

#15 tidytracks

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:17

If you ask me, I think it's a ****ing shame.

While I don't think Scotty was ever going to set the world on fire, he's been treated like crap.

If Liuzzi goes the same way, then it will just be the final insult.

The team suffers from bad management in every conceivable aspect.

If Berger and Tost stay in charge, I personally would give it 12 months before Vettel's out as well and another promising young career has been chucked down the shitter.

I'm really quite angry about this whole thing :mad:

#16 Hyatt

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:23

babyface Vettel for Speed? dont know if thats a good idea ...

#17 united

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:27

Now Liuzzi will finally have a benchmark, not in Hungary of course, but after two or three GPs.

#18 Bart

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:33

Why do people seem to think Liuzzi is better than Speed? I see no evidence for this at all. If anything I'd say Speed has shown more pace, and it's 3-3 in qualifying over the last 6 races.

#19 Buttoneer

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:41

Originally posted by tidytracks
If you ask me, I think it's a ****ing shame.

While I don't think Scotty was ever going to set the world on fire, he's been treated like crap.

I quite agree.

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#20 Hacklerf

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:51

Originally posted by tidytracks
If you ask me, I think it's a ****ing shame.

While I don't think Scotty was ever going to set the world on fire, he's been treated like crap.

If Liuzzi goes the same way, then it will just be the final insult.

The team suffers from bad management in every conceivable aspect.

If Berger and Tost stay in charge, I personally would give it 12 months before Vettel's out as well and another promising young career has been chucked down the shitter.

I'm really quite angry about this whole thing :mad:



i agree :up:

#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:53

Will he keep doing WSR on the off weekends? Because that'd be pretty cool.

#22 Jackman

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:55

Alternately, Parente looks a lock on another title now.

#23 carbonfibre

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 10:58

Im not saying STR have treated speed and liuzzi very well but both drivers certainly havent set the world on fire, now Liuzzi has to up his game or else he is next, i have never been impressed by liuzzi.

#24 tidytracks

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:10

Linoge, I was always taught that if you've got nothing nice to say, it's often better to say nothing at all.

Your post however provided a genuine insight into the discussion, so thanks for that.

#25 united

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:10

Originally posted by Bart
Why do people seem to think Liuzzi is better than Speed? I see no evidence for this at all. If anything I'd say Speed has shown more pace, and it's 3-3 in qualifying over the last 6 races.


I do not think Liuzzi is better. But potentially, if Liuzzi is not going to be beaten by Vettel even Tost should admit that Scott was a decent driver.

#26 tidytracks

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:13

Originally posted by united


I do not think Liuzzi is better. But potentially, if Liuzzi is not going to be beaten by Vettel even Tost should admit that Scott was a decent driver.


And, following that point on, what happens if (frankly I think it's a matter of "when") Liuzzi wipes the floor with Vettel?

#27 Jackman

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:13

Not much - it's not as though Tost will admit the team is crap.

#28 Ilaya

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:17

Originally posted by Linoge80
An asshole replaces an other asshole.

Care to elaborate why you think that both Speed and Vettel qualify as assholes?

Although Speed never impressed me in F1 and his outspokeness didn't go down well with me, I surely didn't wish him an exit like this. The guy gave it his best shot and was a bit stuck in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Hope he keeps Red Bull supporting him and finds a seat in CCWS, they could do with an American driving better than midfield right now.

STR must not be all bad with Vettel going there and Bourdais interested in driving there.
I hope Vettel settles in quickly and gives Liuzzi a run for his money.

#29 scheivlak

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:21

Originally posted by tidytracks


And, following that point on, what happens if (frankly I think it's a matter of "when") Liuzzi wipes the floor with Vettel?

I can't see Vettel doing worse than Liuzzi, who is currently even behind Albers in the WDC standings because of his uncanny talent to put his car into the armco at any moment he seems to perform a decent job.
If Liuzzi suddenly start performing better, it's maybe because of the wake up call that Vettel's entry in the team produced ;)

#30 kNt

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:23

Originally posted by tidytracks
WELCOME HOME - VETTEL TO JOIN SCUDERIA TORO ROSSO

Scuderia Toro Rosso announces that as from the Hungarian Grand Prix, Sebastian Vettel will replace Scott Speed as the driver of car number 19.

Vettel will drive for the team in all the remaining rounds of the 2007 FIA Formula 1 World Championship.

Having joined the Red Bull Junior Team in his early karting years at the age of 12 and been guided by us and BMW through his Formula BMW and Formula 3 career, we now welcome Sebastian back to the Red Bull family.

Welcome to the family, and if you behave, Daddy Tost doesn't slap you ;).

#31 Orin

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:33

Originally posted by tidytracks


And, following that point on, what happens if (frankly I think it's a matter of "when") Liuzzi wipes the floor with Vettel?


Liuzzi's never done anything in F1 to mark him out as a true talent. If Vettel is retained in 2008 I'd expect him to beat Liuzzi, but it's a bit much to ask him to do so in his rookie season. As for Liuzzi vs. Speed, they seem about the same ability level, but I guess Liuzzi's not such a pain in the ass.

#32 tidytracks

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:44

I love this whole "What's Liuzzi ever done?" thing.

Right now, in F1, what have any of them done? A few have won races, most have scored points, one has won a world championship.

There are mitigating factors in all of this, and just because Liuzzi, Speed, whoever and wherever, haven't shown what has been expected of them, doesn't simply reflect their relative levels of talent.

It's not that black and white, and you know it's not.

They wouldn't be racing unless the people who know talent from chuff believed in them. Enough incredibly good drivers go to pasture every season to suggest that the few who do make it to F1 are, for the most part, there on talent.

Everything I've ever seen of Liuzzi tells me that in the right car and at the right team, he'd be frighteningly fast. I'd go as far as to say on raw pace he'd be quicker than Kimi. I'm not basing that on titbits from website articles or what I've seen on TV, I'm basing that on what I've seen him do in the flesh in a number of cars at race tracks across the world since 2003.

But, as already said, it's not that black and white. It has never been in F1 and it will never be.

Take Chris Amon... never won a race. If you look at his career you could easily say, well he never won a race so he's never really done anything in F1. Bollocks. He was arguably one of the greatest drivers that ever raced in F1, and easily the finest to never win a race.

Simple stats do not tell the whole truth, and as we are increasingly seeing at Toro Rosso, there are a lot of mitigating factors bubbling under the surface which we are only just beginning to discover.

#33 scheivlak

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:55

Originally posted by tidytracks
ITake Chris Amon... never won a race. If you look at his career you could easily say, well he never won a race so he's never really done anything in F1. Bollocks. He was arguably one of the greatest drivers that ever raced in F1, and easily the finest to never win a race.

Simple stats do not tell the whole truth, and as we are increasingly seeing at Toro Rosso, there are a lot of mitigating factors bubbling under the surface which we are only just beginning to discover.

To compare Liuzzi with Chris Amon is outrageous. Yes Liuzzi is very talented and fast, but he so unfocused and just squanders his talent. Chris was not only far more succesful but also far more dedicated.

And BTW, Chris won Formula 1 races (and won many other races including the Le Mans and Daytona 24h) but they did not count for the WDC.

#34 Group B

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:56

Originally posted by Ilaya

Care to elaborate why you think that both Speed and Vettel qualify as assholes?

No, he can't.

#35 Bumper

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:56

Originally posted by Orin
If Vettel is retained in 2008 I'd expect him to beat Liuzzi, but it's a bit much to ask him to do so in his rookie season.


Why? Vettel has had plenty of F1 testing and a F1 race under his belt. True talent will always shine through in some way. My take is, and with STR's reputation taken into consideration, that Vettel is under pressure to perform straight away and if he does not outshine Liuzzi this year his contract will not be extended into 2008.

With Bourdais waiting in the wings it seems Liuzzi and Vettel are on some kind of beauty parade. Or maybe it has already been decided behind the scenes that there are going to be 2 Sebastiens next year and Liuzzi is being kept on for now only out of necessity.

#36 Orin

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 11:58

Originally posted by tidytracks
I love this whole "What's Liuzzi ever done?" thing.

Right now, in F1, what have any of them done? A few have won races, most have scored points, one has won a world championship.


People like Webber, Button, Trulli, Heidfeld, Kubica, Wurz, Rosberg, etc. might not have achieved any great statistical impact, but have all made people sit up in their seats and take notice on occasion. Liuzzi's been around for years and has done nothing that I can remember to mark himself out. He's been hyped to the heavens and shown nothing special. No stand-out drives, no gung-ho attacking moves or gutsy defences, he may as well have not been there. Sorry, but that's my opinion. On the other hand, I believe Vettel may be a real talent. Time will tell.

#37 united

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:03

tidytracks,

I would think it is a little bit far fetched to compare Amon and Liuzzi. Liuzzi was not the first driver who started his career in weak teams, and I am afraid - not the last. Heidfeld for example managed to escape from low budget hell twice, second time without any so called 'young drivers program' support.

But in Liuzzi/Speed case the biggest problem is Marko with his pointless drivers' search, I've written about it many times. Actually STR is now taking an option on a driver that was groomed by Theissen and I am sure there is a strong possibility that Vettel will return to BMW one day.

And frankly saying, I was not impressed by Vettel's debut race. He was passable for a teenager rookie, but in terms of Hamilton standard it was a complete failure. Remove Heidfeld and add another inexperienced driver in the team (it means no ready set up) and Vettel would have rather pale face.

#38 Orin

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:04

Originally posted by Bumper


Why? Vettel has had plenty of F1 testing and a F1 race under his belt. True talent will always shine through in some way. My take is, and with STR's reputation taken into consideration, that Vettel is under pressure to perform straight away and if he does not outshine Liuzzi this year his contract will not be extended into 2008.

With Bourdais waiting in the wings it seems Liuzzi and Vettel are on some kind of beauty parade. Or maybe it has already been decided behind the scenes that there are going to be 2 Sebastiens next year and Liuzzi is being kept on for now only out of necessity.


And if Vettel really shines, do BMW race him in 2008? I don't know whether STR have an option on him after this season. Of course I hope Vettel shows indications of his true talent, but I'm not so sure he can be expected to beat a seasoned driver with only half a season remaining and in a completely new car: both Rosberg and Kovalainen struggled at first, the latter despite being embedded in 'his' team for a full year beforehand (and the former having had a full winter's testing). Vettel is really being thrown in the deep end.

#39 tidytracks

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:08

Originally posted by scheivlak

To compare Liuzzi with Chris Amon is outrageous. Yes Liuzzi is very talented and fast, but he so unfocused and just squanders his talent. Chris was not only far more succesful but also far more dedicated.

And BTW, Chris won Formula 1 races (and won many other races including the Le Mans and Daytona 24h) but they did not count for the WDC.


I was merely pointing out the fact that statistics alone do not tell the whole story. Nowhere did I directly compare Amon and Liuzzi, nor would I, because for as big a fan of Tonio as I am, I agree completely with you that at STR he has entirely lost the focus that had made him such a promising talent.

I was merely using the example of Amon to show that it is possible to look at a driver of his greatness and from a straight look at the F1 stats say, "well he was crap, he never won anything" when in fact the real story is so much deeper.

Originally posted by Orin

Liuzzi's been around for years and has done nothing that I can remember to mark himself out. He's been hyped to the heavens and shown nothing special. No stand-out drives, no gung-ho attacking moves or gutsy defences, he may as well have not been there.


This is only his second full season of competition in F1, as the 2005 farce probably did more harm than good. That said, he scored points on his F1 debut after some ballsy driving which showed teh potential he might have had to do something special in a half decent car.

Name me one driver from Spyker or Toro Rosso who could have shown something amazing in the equipment they've had at their disposal over the last two years? Tonio and Scott's regular trips into the gravel have been spawned, I would argue, from overpushing in a car not up to the task, with team bosses demanding the impossible. I would argue that, given the equipment at his disposal, Liuzzi has sometimes shown flashes of brilliance, but that all too often the talent has been hidden by stupid mistakes caused by unrealistic pressure to squeeze more from a car than is humanly possible. Don't forget, even Alonso looked average in a Minardi.

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#40 armonico

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:14

Originally posted by tidytracks

Don't forget, even Alonso looked average in a Minardi.


If you say so.

#41 Orin

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:23

Originally posted by tidytracks


This is only his second full season of competition in F1, as the 2005 farce probably did more harm than good. That said, he scored points on his F1 debut after some ballsy driving which showed teh potential he might have had to do something special in a half decent car.

Name me one driver from Spyker or Toro Rosso who could have shown something amazing in the equipment they've had at their disposal over the last two years? Tonio and Scott's regular trips into the gravel have been spawned, I would argue, from overpushing in a car not up to the task, with team bosses demanding the impossible. I would argue that, given the equipment at his disposal, Liuzzi has sometimes shown flashes of brilliance, but that all too often the talent has been hidden by stupid mistakes caused by unrealistic pressure to squeeze more from a car than is humanly possible. Don't forget, even Alonso looked average in a Minardi.


I used to support Minardi and I can tell you that it's quite possible for drivers to make stand-out contributions in terrible machinery. Ditto Jordan, Arrows, etc. I don't really follow Spyker but I believe Sutil is showing very strongly despite the car and his lack of experience.

#42 Jackman

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:36

I don't believe it is possible to shine in a Toro Rosso or a Spyker, mostly because the cars are so comparatively poor that it is impossible to find any speed in them. Sutil's reputation to date relies entirely on one semi fast lap when he was able to find enough of a dry line during a wet session in Monaco just before the flag came out to inadvertantly top the session - does that really mean he's shone?

As for Liuzzi, I think he's done more than most down in the bowels of F1: he overtook Michael Schumacher in racing conditions during his first race, after all. Could he do more? Certainly, and you've only got to look at his test with Sauber when he matched Schumacher's Ferrari times on the same tyres in Jerez despite it being his first time in the car, and second time in any F1 car. On the day he thought he was fighting for the drive there, only to be told they'd just signed Villeneuve.

I still wonder how much better Liuzzi would be received by people if he'd had that drive. And I know that the team wished he'd had it too.

#43 Dudley

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:41

Originally posted by tidytracks

Don't forget, even Alonso looked average in a Minardi.


Nice work, leave the giveaway it was a joke post till the last sentence.

Wait, this WAS a joke right?

#44 arthurive

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:45

Originally posted by tidytracks


And, following that point on, what happens if (frankly I think it's a matter of "when") Liuzzi wipes the floor with Vettel?


Liuzzi has no chance.
The team wants him out as well. What do you think the mood will be like within the team?
Every effort will be made to help Vettel succeed and Liuzzi fail.
Tonio must know that his days are numbered as well.

#45 Jackman

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:47

Originally posted by Dudley
Nice work, leave the giveaway it was a joke post till the last sentence.

Wait, this WAS a joke right?

What exactly did Alonso do that was so impressive at Minardi? You could actually argue that Webber, the following year and in the same car, did a better job with what he had.

#46 jaisli

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 12:55

Originally posted by Jackman
What exactly did Alonso do that was so impressive at Minardi? You could actually argue that Webber, the following year and in the same car, did a better job with what he had.


1 M.Schumacher Ferrari 1'11.708 - -
2 Ralf SchumacherWilliams/BMW 1'11.986 0.278 0.388
3 J.P.Montoya Williams/BMW 1'12.252 0.544 0.759
4 Mika Häkkinen McLaren/Mercedes 1'12.309 0.601 0.838
5 R.Barrichello Ferrari 1'12.327 0.619 0.863
6 Nick Heidfeld Sauber/Petronas 1'12.434 0.726 1.012
7 David CoulthardMcLaren/Mercedes 1'12.500 0.792 1.104
8 Jarno Trulli Jordan/Honda 1'12.605 0.897 1.251
9 Jean Alesi Jordan/Honda 1'12.607 0.899 1.254
10 Jenson ButtonBenetton/Renault 1'12.805 1.097 1.530
11 Kimi RäikkönenSauber/Petronas 1'12.881 1.173 1.636
12 G.Fisichella Benetton/Renault 1'12.942 1.234 1.721
13 Olivier Panis BAR/Honda 1'13.122 1.414 1.972
14 Eddie Irvine Jaguar/Cosworth 1'13.189 1.481 2.065
15 H-H.FrentzenProst/Acer 1'13.281 1.573 2.194
16 Pedro de la Rosa Jaguar/Cosworth 1'13.679 1.971 2.749
17 Fernando Alonso Minardi/European 1'13.991 2.283 3.184
18 J.Villeneuve BAR/Honda 1'14.012 2.304 3.213
19 Enrique Bernoldi Arrows/Asiatech 1'14.129 2.421 3.376
20 Jos Verstappen Arrows/Asiatech 1'14.138 2.430 3.389
21 Tomas Enge Prost/Acer 1'14.185 2.477 3.454
22 Alex Yoong Minardi/European 1'15.247 3.539 4.935

For starters...

#47 scheivlak

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 13:04

Or http://www.forix.com...r=20010017&c=11

#48 Against_The_Grain

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 13:05

Originally posted by tidytracks


Don't forget, even Alonso looked average in a Minardi.

Er, not really. Even in a Minardi Alonso looked impressive, and I clearly recall thinking so as the 2001 (his Minardi) season progressed. I am still not a fan of his manner, but while he's been in F1 he has stood out, for those taking notice. Here's what Wikipedia says on the subject:

_______________________________________________________________

Alonso was the third-youngest driver ever to start a F1 race when he made his debut with Minardi at the 2001 Australian Grand Prix. The team was in its first season under the control of new owner Paul Stoddart and their new car, the PS01, was neither competitive nor reliable. However Alonso's qualifying performance was good, at his first race he out-qualified team mate Tarso Marques by 2.6s. At the fourth round at Imola he outqualified both of the Benettons, a feat he repeated later in the season.[4]

Following some notable performances over the 2001 season had earned him some attention from the faster teams. It was reported in September 2001 by some of the European press that Sauber were looking to replace outgoing Kimi Räikkönen with the Spaniard although he was facing competition for the seat from Felipe Massa and then Jaguar test driver Andre Lotterer.[5] A month later it was confirmed that Massa was going to take the vacant Sauber seat for 2002.[6]

In September, his manager Flavio Briatore had begun planning to place Alonso at Benetton. Briatore considered promoting Alonso for 2002, in place of Jenson Button, but instead chose to take Alonso on as a full-time test driver for 2002.[4] At the final round of 2001 at Suzuka he finished eleventh - five places outside the points but ahead, on merit, of Heinz-Harald Frentzen’s Prost (with a Ferrari-derived engine), the BAR-Honda of Olivier Panis, the two Arrows and Alex Yoong (his new team mate).[4] Four years later, his team boss from the Minardi days, Paul Stoddart, described his race as "53 laps, pure qualifying pace".

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#49 Jackman

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 13:18

Outqualifying Tarso Marques, Alex Yoong and a Benetton team at its lowest ever ebb is what a driver is supposed to do, rather than be an indication of the extraordinary.

#50 scheivlak

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 13:28

Originally posted by Jackman
Outqualifying Tarso Marques, Alex Yoong and a Benetton team at its lowest ever ebb is what a driver is supposed to do, rather than be an indication of the extraordinary.

Did you even read my (and other) posts?