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Vettel to Toro Rosso


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#101 Burai

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 19:50

Originally posted by CWeil
I don't know if it's about who is going to be made to give up their seat or who will willingly give it up to persue better options.

I'm strongly doubting, though, that Bourdais is going to go to STR next year, having seen what happened recently and knowing what he'll be able to achieve (or, rather, not achieve). It would be a bad career move.


I don't see it as a bad career move. Champ Car is a total joke in the eyes of F1 bosses right now. He needs to get out of there at the first opportunity. At the moment he's in danger of being forever remembered as the guy that dominated Champ Car once all the money and talent left.

He absolutely has to take this risk because no-one in F1 outside of Berger takes him even remotely seriously. If he's that good he will shine. You can't build a car bad enough under the current regulations to completely mask a guy's potential.

He's done all he can ever do in the US. He could win the next 10 Champ Car titles and it still wouldn't make the front half of the F1 grid look at him any more. He might as well take a gamble that gets him closer to his ultimate goal.

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#102 David M. Kane

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 20:39

Race Addicted:

A shadow of his former self...

#103 ezequiel

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 21:35

Originally posted by Wouter

Don't you mean for Minardi? I remember a fine race from Sarrazin, a one-off in a Minardi and IIRC it was at Interlagos. In 1999.


Indeed. If I'm not mistaken, he spun off while chasing Wurz's Benetton. Sarrazin is definitely a driver I would have liked to see in F1 more time...

#104 armonico

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 04:16

If Vettel can start working in Toro Rosso as he has recently commented about what he reconks is the best way to have a F1 career, then I think he will do very well. He'll start slowly but he will only go up from this point.

He must have one thing in mind now, he must keep the car inside the tarmac. He must try not to spin out. The more time he spends in the track the more experience he will get.

#105 former champ

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 04:28

Impressing in a poor car can be done if you are a superb talent and Alonso was just that at Minardi in 2001. His race performances that year were frightingly good, on a regular basis. Regarding outqualifying Villeneuve at Indy, one should note that JV was a second slower than teammate Panis, hence its obvious (as was said) that JV was driving a car that was stuffed (as JHope mentioned). Not that it takes away from Alonso who was on superb form but I rate some of his race performances that year far ahead of that one qualy session.

He proved he could go lap after lap at an extreme pace, that's what stood him out for me in that Minardi.

#106 JSDSKI

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 04:42

Bourdais has to go to STR and try to impress in F1 if he wants his career to forward. His age, the time, an opportunity, and support within the F1 circus (Berger), have come together and he has his shot. He must grab it or his career will take an entirely different twist. A successful career, no doubt. But without the F1 ticket punched.

#107 united

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 07:54

Face to face :)

http://www.formulama...speed_large.jpg

That's Johannes Klien's torso in the background, representing another RBR reject...

#108 wingwalker

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 10:59

i'd like to see bourdais in F1, just to see what is current champ lineup worth, as "not much" is everyone's opinion.

#109 Keir

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 13:53

..... and I'd like to see myself driving F1 !! Bourdais is in a nowwhere series driving into oblivion. F1 would be a true waste of time for all involved.

#110 race addicted

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 15:19

I might've forgotten all about it, but I think this is the first time I've been made aware of Villeneuve's probs on Indy '01.
I brought Ralf Schumacher and Kingfisher into this discussion, but in the latest F1Racing it says that Kingfisher's deal with Toyota is for three years. I wonder who set out the rumour of Schumacher possibly being able to take Kingfisher with him to another team then!

Of course Bourdais should try all he can to get a ride in F1, more or less regardless of how competitive the team he ends up with might be. If he trounces his team-mate, depending on who that is, he'll move up the ladder.

#111 Sakae

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 16:20

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Agreed, regardless Bourdais needs to move on, he has nothing further to claim in Champ Car. He is in danger of becoming another Paul Tracey.

When Tracy was anywhere near accomplishments that SB has to his credit?

#112 Sakae

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 16:30

I think Vettel' entry to TR could be seen as opportunity which is knife edge wide. The life with teams like that could be a career killer. Hamilton was lucky, but that's the way to go. Rake up 1000 hrs of testing before you take a race, and then you show up as a hero.

#113 FlashMaster

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 16:44

I think Vettel should've waited until next season. He drove superb races in formula BMW WITHOUT TC ! Next year it'll be much easier to see who is really fast and who's not.

#114 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 17:20

Originally posted by tidytracks

Don't forget, even Alonso looked average in a Minardi.



Ehhhhhh......

No he did not. He looked absolutely amazing, which is what is wrong with both Speed and Liuzzi.

All decission makers in and around F1 know and understand that the Toro Rosso team is unable to field a car capable of contending for points on merit, so both Liuzzi and Speed need to show 'specialness' considering their tools at hand.

And this is where they have both failed miserably throughout their F1 tenure.

Alonso in a Minardo scored zero points, but that mean nothing Minardi basically never scored any points. But he qualified a Minardi 17th at Indianapolis, outqualifying a Honda engined former WDC, and holding the Renault of Fisichella at bay for several laps, Fisichella incensed as he thought he had to be lapping the Minardi.

This season who is the better driver Rosberg or Wurz? If you look at points, obviously Wurz, but if you pay attention Rosberg is WAAAAYYYY ahead of Wurz, and had it not been for Hamilton Rosberg would be the revelation of the 2007 season.

Don't think that points is the full story, try to actually pay attention to what happens over a full raceweekend.

:cool:

#115 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 13:09

Originally posted by bystander31
Excellent news :up: :up: All we need now is Bourdais to replace Tonio,


First see if Vettel can beat Tonio, or if Tonio will crush Vettel Webber-style and that the Vettel hype is all hot air :wave:

From a Vettel supporter who advocates Vettel taking a Toyota works racing seat :up: but finds it unreasonable :down: that Speed and Liuzzi can both be considered bad when they could only be compared to each other after all.

#116 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 13:13

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
both Liuzzi and Speed need to show 'specialness' considering their tools at hand.

And this is where they have both failed miserably throughout their F1 tenure.


They both run near the top 10 and put their car in the top 10 and even top 5 of practice sessions.

If this is not special then bloody hell !!!!

Alonso was usually within the back few rows and did not have another serious young gun challenger in equal machinery to claw and fight* as the Minardi Marques/Yoong times ensured good parts to be fitted to the car of the charger unlike Minardi's later Verstappen/Wilsons times when things were more even.

*Unlike the Speed/Liuzzi scenario!

#117 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 13:17

Originally posted by race addicted


I wonder how arrived at that conclusion? Webber did a very stellar job for Minardi in '02, but for me there's never been a question; Alonso's 2001-season for Minardi was extremely impressive! He outqualified one of the B-A-R's once or twice btw.


The 2001 Minardi had reasonable handling but no horsepower, but the 2002 Minardi had reasonable horsepower but no handling.... It's a puzzler. :)

Alonso and Webbers performances were decent but Speed and Liuzzi were doing just as well racing the tough midfield teams like multiple world champions Williams plus works squads like Honda.. a much more fair and even battles as all teams have several $100 m motor-cars but the STR has much less resources, data and infrastructure to run their car - very much a hand tied behind their back yes?!

#118 race addicted

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 16:10

Liuzzi's and Speed's efforts are not near Alonso's and Webber's performances while at Minardi.
With Webber and Alonso, you often felt they did more than they "should" have with the car they had, and in addition they were praised left, right and centre.
Speed and Liuzzi makes too many mistakes, somehow manages to post slower laptimes in qualifying than they did in free practice (everyone else improves by a few tenths - this is justified critisism that Tost and Berger has served them), and doens't get much praise heaped upon them.
...and I'm not just thinking about comments from their own team - Alonso and Webber got recognition from everywhere. There's really no comparison.
-and for clarification, I'm among those who rate Liuzzi's speed as quite good, but he seldom extracts it.

#119 scheivlak

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 16:21

Originally posted by V8 Fireworks


They both run near the top 10 and put their car in the top 10 and even top 5 of practice sessions.

If this is not special then bloody hell !!!!

For me that was a pretty sure sign that the car wasn't bad at all, but that the drivers are hopelessly inconsistent.

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#120 race addicted

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 16:25

I'm baffled by people being impressed with Liuzzi or Speed having been in the top five or ten in free practice , when that obviously only means that not too many others did qualifying-sims at the same time.

#121 Orin

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 16:29

Good news, Vettel will remain at STR for 2008

http://www.itv-f1.co...spx?PO_ID=40227

So he'll have a proper shot at Liuzzi. :up:

Surely BMW must have decided to keep Heidfeld on for another year?

#122 Romulus

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 17:21

Originally posted by Ralliart
This is a win win for BMW. Vettel gets race experience, Speed, the burr in the saddle is out, Liuzzi will be further shown to be mediocre and will be out at the end of the year. BMW could then, in my opinion, run Kubica and Vettel next year. Heidfeld should go. Vettel and Kubica are rising stars while Heidfeld is on the downside of his F1 career. He's not going to get any faster/better and could go to Toyota, Renault or Toro Rosso or race in another category like DTM. Multi-year contracts are, in my opinion, realy the wrong way to go. I don't when it started but, I think, for example, Trulli was signed for 5 years. If a team, Toyota in tht instance, wants to get rid of him they have to buy out the last year(s) and all, unnecessarily expensive. Base a contract on performance - whatever the team's perimeters. Speed didn't produce, he whined (publicly), get rid of him. Liuzzi doesn't perform, get rid of him. Why hamstring yourself with a multi-year contract? What, Trulli wouldn't have signed with Toyota if he was on a one year? Of course he would have. Heidfeld/Kubica and Bourdais/Vettel lineups wouldn't be bad for next year although, like I said, Heidfeld should be shown the door (along with Schumacher, Trulli, Coulthard, Barrichello and Fisichella - none of whom is going to get any quicker).



:rotfl:
Time for a reality check?

Heidfeld is clearly the best of the rest right now.

#123 OSX

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 18:15

Originally posted by MiPe
I think Vettel' entry to TR could be seen as opportunity which is knife edge wide. The life with teams like that could be a career killer. Hamilton was lucky, but that's the way to go. Rake up 1000 hrs of testing before you take a race, and then you show up as a hero.


I don't think so. I think this is a way for BMW to let Vettel gain driving plus racing experience before he'll races for them. BMW has two decent drivers at the moment and it's obvious in light of this Vettel deal with Toro Rosso that Heidfelt will remain at BMW for at least another year. It's really nice to see at least one of the Red Bull teams to sign a deal with promising young rising star finally. :up:

#124 David M. Kane

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 18:22

No doubt BMW is the winner. SV gets experience, he remembers who helped him out. IF he impresses he's invited back by BMW.Not a dissimilar situation to what Heidfeld was in with McLaren. In the end SV is sort of the master of where he ship sails. At least this way he doesn't become the next Jos Verstappan.

#125 Orin

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 18:28

Originally posted by David M. Kane
No doubt BMW is the winner. SV gets experience, he remembers who helped him out. IF he impresses he's invited back by BMW.Not a dissimilar situation to what Heidfeld was in with McLaren. In the end SV is sort of the master of where he ship sails. At least this way he doesn't become the next Jos Verstappan.


Yes, I agree. I expect Vettel to show something during 2008 and BMW will then sign him for 2009. I guess Heidfeld will move to Red Bull at that point, taking over from DC :)

...at this point DC will literally hoist Allen from the ITV commentary booth and take his place next to Brundle! :D

#126 David M. Kane

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 19:30

Orin:

We can only dream! DC might be quiet good, given some of the comments I'ver heard him make on his car radio!

Then maybe this new racing network could pick-up the British GP coverage? Speed TV has, IMO, opinion become way too NASCAR orient. I'm not against NASCAR but 24x7...PLEASE...I can take only so much of the language being slaughtered like squealing pigs! I call it "holler" talk, like down in a holler in the Smokey Mountains. Whatever we let's NOT set an example of proper English, let's continue "holler talk/holler ebonics".

#127 Dudley

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 19:53

It seems weird to me that Toro, with more drivers than seats and an excellent opportunity to test Vettel, would offer him a deal before he ever races for them.

#128 wingwalker

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 19:56

Originally posted by Dudley
It seems weird to me that Toro, with more drivers than seats and an excellent opportunity to test Vettel, would offer him a deal before he ever races for them.



maybe they were confident that speed was really crappy and vettel is really good.

#129 Group B

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 19:56

Yes, bit strange. Still, at least it takes the pressure off; maybe that even played a part.

#130 ezequiel

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 21:14

Originally posted by race addicted


I wonder how arrived at that conclusion? Webber did a very stellar job for Minardi in '02, but for me there's never been a question; Alonso's 2001-season for Minardi was extremely impressive! He outqualified one of the B-A-R's once or twice btw.


I also remember Tora Takagi in a weak Tyrrel-Ford qualifying 13th in his debut (hehe, though he later spun off in the first lap)...

#131 Dudley

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 22:15

Originally posted by wingwalker



maybe they were confident that speed was really crappy and vettel is really good.


But even if you're confident, why jump the gun. It's unlikely anyone is actually going to "steal" him for 08 so why not take the chance to try before you buy.

I can only assume a condition of BMW letting go was a full year contract.

I also remember Tora Takagi in a weak Tyrrel-Ford qualifying 13th in his debut (hehe, though he later spun off in the first lap)...


I don't think anyone questions that Tora could be very very quick. What he couldn't was do it as consistently as Alonso did in 2001, or put together a race like Japan.

#132 David M. Kane

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 23:27

Desperate people do desperate things...As the General in "War Games" said, "I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it would help!" :p

#133 Orin

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 08:22

I suspect Theissen wouldn't release Vettel for just half a season: we've seen how Kovalainen struggled in the first half in the Renault, despite testing for a year with the team. Vettel would be thrown in to a new car in a new team with no testing and given only 1/2 a season. This way BMW ensure Vettel is given a proper chance to show his worth.

#134 Group B

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 09:38

Great first session :up:

#135 Dudley

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 12:55

Originally posted by Orin
I suspect Theissen wouldn't release Vettel for just half a season: we've seen how Kovalainen struggled in the first half in the Renault, despite testing for a year with the team. Vettel would be thrown in to a new car in a new team with no testing and given only 1/2 a season. This way BMW ensure Vettel is given a proper chance to show his worth.


Yeah, and on that basis it's a risk I think I'd have taken.

#136 race addicted

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 13:16

Originally posted by Group B
Great first session :up:


Indeed, and another seriously impressive effort in the second as well. Matching Liuzzi right from the off far exceeded my expectations.
Very, very well done! His potential is good, and unless Liuzzi has just got problems finding a good set-up, signs are that Vettel is the quicker of the two.

#137 Group B

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 13:25

Originally posted by race addicted


Indeed, and another seriously impressive effort in the second as well. Matching Liuzzi right from the off far exceeded my expectations.
Very, very well done! His potential is good, and unless Liuzzi has just got problems finding a good set-up, signs are that Vettel is the quicker of the two.


Yup, mine too. I'd have said >0.5 of Liuzzi would be a respectable first weekend in the car. Fingers crossed for tomorrow :up:

#138 juary

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 23:20

Originally posted by Group B


Yup, mine too. I'd have said >0.5 of Liuzzi would be a respectable first weekend in the car. Fingers crossed for tomorrow :up:


For a first taste of the STR really not bad....i think that Liuzzi have to wake up or he will make the Speed's end....

#139 David M. Kane

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 23:23

There are some great photos of the very young SV on the Pitpass site.

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#140 911

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Posted 03 August 2007 - 23:24

Very impressive first outing with STR. Let's see how he does the rest of the weekend. Liuzzi - you better up your pace tomorrow.

#141 CWeil

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 00:20

I have some info, but will wait until the end of the weekend. The two cars aren't exactly equal this weekend...but it's been that way all year.

Not bad at all for Vettel, but it's not exactly like he's been short on F1 seat time this year (like, say, Winkelhock and Yamamoto).

#142 Taboot

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:01

Quote:
"Then maybe this new racing network could pick-up the British GP coverage? Speed TV has, IMO, opinion become way too NASCAR orient. I'm not against NASCAR but 24x7...PLEASE...I can take only so much of the language being slaughtered like squealing pigs! I call it "holler" talk, like down in a holler in the Smokey Mountains. Whatever we let's NOT set an example of proper English, let's continue "holler talk/holler ebonics"."

Thank you for setting an example of proper English or whatever we let's not said you hollered about oriental NASCAR.

#143 Knuckles

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 07:09

Originally posted by Jackman
I don't believe it is possible to shine in a Toro Rosso or a Spyker, mostly because the cars are so comparatively poor that it is impossible to find any speed in them.


The Arrows was arguably a worse shitcan. Yet, Hill did find at least one outstanding performance (if helped by tyre situation) and a couple decent ones in it.

#144 ezequiel

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 18:06

Originally posted by Knuckles


The Arrows was arguably a worse shitcan. Yet, Hill did find at least one outstanding performance (if helped by tyre situation) and a couple decent ones in it.


You're talking about Arrows in 1997...well, that year there were at least two less competitive teams: Old-spec-Ford powered Tyrrell and Hart-powered Minardi. And rookie team Stewart did not show much better than Walkinshaw's team. This season, STR and Spyker are, in the first place, the only teams running old-spec engines. And for what we've seen, the Toro Rosso seems to be only better than the Spyker. In comparative terms with the rest of the field in both seasons, and taking in account the differences in general reliability (these days, F1 cars are, in general, more reliable than 10 years ago. This might seem like an advantage, but for small teams the only chances to score points in the past was sometimes survive in a race with a high level of DNFs. As it is rarer these days, small teams seem to have less chances of scoring points and "showing off" with impressive results), I would say that it was more likely to stand out with an Arrows Yamaha in 1997 than with a Toro Rosso in 2007.

#145 JSDSKI

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 21:57

Any opinions out there on Vettel's first qualifying ? Or has "Alonso-Wait" grabbed all the headlines :lol:

#146 airwise

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 01:00

I would imagine that Scott Speed and Tony are feeling quietly vindicated and Mr Berger is looking a little stupid at this moment but it's early days.

#147 arthurive

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 01:22

I have absolutely nothing against Sebastien Vettel. Whenever you are given the opportunity
you have to take it. Good for him.
But clearly, the STR is a pretty poor car, and I doubt any driver would do very well in it.
I think part of the problem that Speed and Liuzzi (dead man walking...) have had, is that they
were pushing the damned thing as far as possible, and as a result, were making mistakes.
We really don't know how good (or how mediocre) Speed and Liuzzi are, because they have never been
in a good car. In fact, they've really never been in an average car.....

For example: We all know that Button and Barrichello are both accomplished professional drivers.
Yet, if all we had to go on, was their performance in 2007, we might (erroneously) conclude that they
were both tossers.

So given this, I hope that Speed and Liuzzi both get another shot at F1 after 2007.
Liuzzi will be let go for certain, and that's probably the best thing for him. If he can look good
alongside Vettel for the remainder of 2007, maybe he'll get a decent test seat somewhere with a
chance to race again. As for Speed, his chances may not be too good, but you never know.
The botton line is, the better Liuzzi looks against Vettel, the better chance he (and Speed) would
have of being somewhat vindicated.

#148 Knuckles

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 01:36

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ezequiel
You're talking about Arrows in 1997...well, that year there were at least two less competitive teams[/QUOTE]

That may be so, but I would argue that the Arrows still was farther away from the top than the Toro Rosso is now. Think of the first race of the year, when Hill didn't qualify due to suspension parts being set up wrongly and the car extremely unstable. We haven't seen anything as embarrassing from TR.[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ezequiel As it [DNF]
is rarer these days, small teams seem to have less chances of scoring points and "showing off" with impressive results), I would say that it was more likely to stand out with an Arrows Yamaha in 1997 than with a Toro Rosso in 2007. [/QUOTE]

Well, we had two races this year in which one had great opportunities to shine, and some did.

#149 CWeil

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 05:02

Originally posted by arthurive

So given this, I hope that Speed and Liuzzi both get another shot at F1 after 2007.
Liuzzi will be let go for certain, and that's probably the best thing for him. If he can look good
alongside Vettel for the remainder of 2007, maybe he'll get a decent test seat somewhere with a
chance to race again. As for Speed, his chances may not be too good, but you never know.
The botton line is, the better Liuzzi looks against Vettel, the better chance he (and Speed) would
have of being somewhat vindicated.


Liuzzi looking good next to Vettel is a completely meaningless estimation of his "abilities" because Vettel is by far the lesser known quantity because he's a rookie who's had 1 race in a good car! It's more important for Vettel to look good next to Liuzzi than for Liuzzi to look good next to Vettel, because Liuzzi has had 2 years to show his worth relative to the strength of the car, which is what engineers up and down the pitlane actually see and take into account (unlike posters here, quite honestly). They know the STR is junk, so that factors in quite heavily.

The only real thing you can use to determine Vettel's F1 capabilities is his single previous race in a completely different (entirely better) car, which basically means nothing. Driving in previous categories helps, but is no means a definite marker, because in that regard Liuzzi (and countless others) have been much more successful than Vettel!

The point is, though, that the next few races will show that it's the car, not the driver...but everyone outside of STR and the media understand that.

#150 AFCA

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 17:39

It seems rather unlikely but teamboss Trevor Carlin says that Vettel might be driving the coming races in the World Series by Renault. ''At the moment I don't know yet. It depends on a conjoined decision from BMW Sauber and Red Bull. I think that at the beginning of next week I will already have an answer, if Sebastian doesn't return to the World Series by Renault, we will drive with another driver from Red Bull.''