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Alonso/Hamilton Hungary qualifying controversy (merged)


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Poll: Alonso/Hamilton Hungary qualifying controversy (merged) (228 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Good - Excellent use of the rules (39 votes [17.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.18%

  2. Bad - Shows no regard for fairness (168 votes [74.01%])

    Percentage of vote: 74.01%

  3. No opinion (20 votes [8.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.81%

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#3651 F1Johnny

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 13:52

Originally posted by Durant
I cant see how a few hundred less revs would really change the fact the heating ducts are too small. I would think the general operation of the engine would produce most of the heating the last few hundred revs wouldnt matter too much.


We don't expect you to see how that could happen. You yourself said you are not an engineer.

Originally posted by Durant
Also,now the question must be asked why was Hamilton given smaller ducts and a speed advantage over Alonso? And why on earth would Mclaren risk smaller ducts just on Hamiltons car when he just needed a safe result to be WC while Alonso was the one who needed to win the race? The excuses just dont make sense do they?


You can't have it both ways. Both garages share information, you get upset that Hamilton is stealing ideas from Alonso. They separate the garages, you complain why Hamilton is using setups and strategies that Alonso is not privy to. Make up your mind.

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#3652 Internet

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 13:59

Originally posted by Durant


Well is this is true, it also typified his stupidity, and he obviously didnt learn anything from China and yet again his hunger to beat Alonso brought him undone and could have directly resulted in losing the WC. There was simply no need to sacrifice cooling for pace, they should have used the best cooling possible. He only needed a 4th place for the WC so it should have been as reliable as possible. Anyway you try to spin it the blame ends up on Hamilton. Keep trying though. :up:


So what you're basically saying Hamilton is a true racer and Alonso is a cruise and collector? Anyway like it has already been said in this thread, there was a spanish representative in Brazil making sure that Alonso got everything he wanted.

#3653 undersquare

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:06

Originally posted by Durant


Well is this is true, it also typified his stupidity


If only he'd had you to ask :rotfl:

#3654 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by Durant
Anyway you try to spin it the blame ends up on Hamilton. Keep trying though. :up:

How you can respond to a post providing unbiased technical insight and that shows your previous opinion (providing Hamilton with less cooling was a conspiracy against Alonso) to be completely wrong, and claim other people are "spinning it" is beyond me.

The only person "spinning it" in this thread is you, Arrow.

#3655 F1Champion

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:09

Originally posted by scarbs
Lewis and his race engineer make the decision what cooling to run. Its not a conspiracy headed by the top management of McLaren. Trading pace for cooling is a common set up parameter, If you recall Lewis was quite strategically aggressive in the final races, this typified his approach.

Revs are critical to cooling, if you recall when the 19k rpm limit was brought in, several teams had to reduce their revs and accordingly their cooling packages. While some teams had as much as 1000rpm to lose in qualifying (where cooling is less critical), most teams only had a few hundred revs to shed during the race, which is what the cooling capacity for the car is set up for. By cutting a few hundred revs he was able to balance the temperatures, this again is common practice for drivers during a race. He would not need to stay at those revs for the full race, he may well have been allowed more revs for certain periods for strategic reasons (i.e. pit stop windows and lapping slower cars etc) or due to a lower ambient temperature or engine temp.


A crystal clear explanation. :up:

#3656 Durant

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:10

Originally posted by Internet


So what you're basically saying Hamilton is a true racer and Alonso is a cruise and collector?


No im saying Alonso is smart and Hamilton is not.

#3657 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:11

Originally posted by Durant
No im saying Alonso is smart and Hamilton is not.

1 set up parameter judged slightly incorrectly (which isn't a decision taken solely by the driver either) and Alonso is smart and Hamilton is not? What a strange binary world you live in. :drunk:

#3658 Durant

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:11

Originally posted by Gareth

How you can respond to a post providing unbiased technical insight and that shows your previous opinion (providing Hamilton with less cooling was a conspiracy against Alonso) to be completely wrong, and claim other people are "spinning it" is beyond me.

The only person "spinning it" in this thread is you, Arrow.


I know he said hes not biased but that doesnt mean its true. He seems to be defending Hamilton at every possible opportunity so he seems pretty biased to me.

#3659 Durant

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:15

Originally posted by Gareth

1 set up parameter judged slightly incorrectly (which isn't a decision taken solely by the driver either) and Alonso is smart and Hamilton is not? What a strange binary world you live in. :drunk:


You make it sound like it was an accident. The cooling ducts are one of the most fundamental and critical aspects of the car so its not something you just stuff up on one car and I still cant see why the cars would be running different engine cooling considering they used the same cars and engines. It was either sabotage by the team or Hamilton got greedy and wanted to squeeze out every ounce of speed from his car just to beat Alonso. Sadly it all backfired as Alonso sorted him out on lap one then Hamilton sorted himself out a few laps later. Justice served.

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#3660 scarbs

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:17

How am I defending up Hamilton, all I have told you is how the fault is likely to have happened.

#3661 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:19

Originally posted by Durant


I know he said hes not biased but that doesnt mean its true. He seems to be defending Hamilton at every possible opportunity so he seems pretty biased to me.

He's posted what happened. The fact that you see that as "defending Hamilton" is your problem with the truth, not Scarb's problem with bias.

#3662 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:22

Originally posted by Durant


You make it sound like it was an accident. The cooling ducts are one of the most fundamental and critical aspects of the car so its not something you just stuff up on one car and I still cant see why the cars would be running different engine cooling considering they used the same cars and engines. It was either sabotage by the team or Hamilton got greedy and wanted to squeeze out every ounce of speed from his car just to beat Alonso. Sadly it all backfired as Alonso sorted him out on lap one then Hamilton sorted himself out a few laps later. Justice served.

I didn't say it happened by accident, I said Hamilton and his race team got it slightly wrong. You telling me this is the first time in F1 the cooling's been judged incorrectly?

And your "sabotage by the team or Hamilton got greedy ... just to beat Alonso" is (as you're so fond of saying Arrow) just something you made up from your keyboard.

I admit there was an error in the set up. The difference between you and I is that 1 error on set up made in consultation with the race team does not make someone "stupid" to me and the person who got it right "smart".

Like I said, you live in a strange and sad binary world - I guess nuances and degrees are a little too complex for you, eh?

#3663 Durant

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:23

Originally posted by scarbs
How am I defending up Hamilton, all I have told you is how the fault is likely to have happened.


Your defending the team and Hamilton for their choice of duct. It was clearly sabotage or a stupid risk.

#3664 undersquare

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:26

Originally posted by Durant


Your defending the team and Hamilton for their choice of duct. It was clearly sabotage or a stupid risk.


The team sabotaged Fernando by taking a stupid risk with Hammy's car.

Obvious, now you say it :rotfl:

#3665 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:29

Originally posted by scarbs
How am I defending up Hamilton, all I have told you is how the fault is likely to have happened.

Durant is the new name for a poster who keeps getting banned by the mods here for trolling. Durant aka Asperon aka RTX aka DavidG aka Arrow.

I normally quite enjoy sitting back to watch him draw people in, but I'd rather he didn't with you as your input is usually invaluable for cooling down arguments between the grown ups who post here.

#3666 F1Johnny

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:31

Originally posted by scarbs
How am I defending up Hamilton, all I have told you is how the fault is likely to have happened.


Give up scarbs. There is so much more rubbish to come from Durant, you will not believe a single individual could be so obtuse.

#3667 Durant

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:32

Originally posted by Gareth

I didn't say it happened by accident, I said Hamilton and his race team got it slightly wrong. You telling me this is the first time in F1 the cooling's been judged incorrectly?


First time ive heard of it and first time a car has switched to N because of it. How could Hamilton be the only driver all season to get this 'slightly wrong'? This isnt a spring or wing setting this is engine cooling. And considering all the advanced telemetry at hand, why wasnt the over heating noticed and fixed before it actually got so bad the car malfunctioned. And if the car over heated and the team turned down the revs for the rest of the race, why days after the race was Whitmarsh still unsure of the cause and talking about magnetic fields? And why did two drivers using, apparently the exact same car and engine require different engine cooling? Did they even have different cooling?

#3668 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:39

Originally posted by Durant


First time ive heard of it and first time a car has switched to N because of it. How could Hamilton be the only driver all season to get this 'slightly wrong'? This isnt a spring or wing setting this is engine cooling. And considering all the advanced telemetry at hand, why wasnt the over heating noticed and fixed before it actually got so bad the car malfunctioned. And if the car over heated and the team turned down the revs for the rest of the race, why days after the race was Whitmarsh still unsure of the cause and talking about magnetic fields? And why did two drivers using, apparently the exact same car and engine require different engine cooling? Did they even have different cooling?

So now it didn't happen?

Make up your mind. So far, you seem to think either the overheating couldn't have happened and the car going into neutral was Hamilton's fault for pressing the button, or it did happen and the team were sabotaging Alonso's car by giving him the worse set up, or it did happen and Hamilton took a stupid risk*.

I do not know the answers to your questions because the theory on overheating is not mine, it's one I am taking on face value from someone with far more knowledge on the matter than you or me. What I do know, though, is that you have no idea what happened and are all over the map with what you (apparently) know about this. The only constant being, in your many contridictory statements, that whatever you know happened shows Hamilton to be bad and Alonso good.



(*I particularly like how if it's a set up detrimental to Alonso, cooling is a team decision whereas if it's a set up detrimental to Hamilton, cooling is a driver decision)

#3669 scarbs

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:54

Originally posted by Durant


Your defending the team and Hamilton for their choice of duct. It was clearly sabotage or a stupid risk.


That’s a curious conclusion to reach?

I think stupidity is too strong a word. An error of judgement, yes. But sabotage, no.

If you recall the temperature rose during the race day (recall that several teams found their fuel was cooler than 10 degrees below ambient). Being light on cooling was risk, Lewis and his technical team decided it was worth taking. They were proved wrong as the temperature increased during the day causing an exceptional failure on the car.

Certainly the choice to consider being marginal could be viewed as unnecessary given his position in the championship, their choice over Fernando’s perhaps reflects their relative experience, maturity and aggression. How you view the merits of those different attributes is what draws people to the drivers and the sport. Everyone will love or hate different drivers.

As for me I ignore the drivers and just focus on the cars.

#3670 F1Champion

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 14:55

What's done is done, the childish thing is the constant desire to prove Hamilton to have made a mistake. Why this insecurity? Because he beat Alonso? What would you rather prefer that Hamilton was 'clever' and set the car up for maximum cooling and took the points for the WDC, thus proving that he beat Alonso and has done something in the history of sport that Alonso himself couldn't even match? :drunk: :stoned: Either way Hamilton is in the record books for the best start for a rookie and for his age, get over it.

#3671 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 15:12

If only Lewis had copied Fernando's setup, eh?

#3672 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 15:35

Originally posted by Internet


So what you're basically saying Hamilton is a true racer and Alonso is a cruise and collector?


or another way to say it would be Hamilton is an F1 driver and Alonso is a 2X world driving champion.

The talk goes on. Some interesting points made but nothing really new so far.

Question, why the rush to judgment? Why do Hamilton fans so desperately deny some of the possibilities, any of the ones that might indicate that Hamilton made an error strangely enough, all in the face of what is basically no information.

Someday we may know what really happened it does not look like today is that day.

MP if you would be so kind as to call be some names it would make my day.

#3673 F1Johnny

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 15:40

Originally posted by SlateGray
Question, why the rush to judgment?


Oh the irony.

#3674 Scudetto

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 15:43

Originally posted by SlateGray

Why do Hamilton fans so desperately deny some of the possibilities, any of the ones that might indicate that Hamilton made an error strangely enough, all in the face of what is basically no information.


For the same reason that Alonsites feel compelled to fault Hamilton when what little information IS available suggests otherwise?

#3675 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 15:51

Originally posted by F1Johnny


Oh the irony.

It's not irony, it's hypocrisy.

Signed

Alanis Morissette

#3676 F1Johnny

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:00

Originally posted by Buttoneer

It's not irony, it's hypocrisy.

Signed

Alanis Morissette


I think a full dose of both.

#3677 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:00

Originally posted by Scudetto


For the same reason that Alonsites feel compelled to fault Hamilton when what little information IS available suggests otherwise?


So you also think Hamilton is a backstabbing team betraying overrated chocker? :p

#3678 Scudetto

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:03

Originally posted by SlateGray


So you also think Alonso is a backstabbing team betraying overrated chocker? :p


Corrected for accuracy.

#3679 undersquare

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:04

Originally posted by Buttoneer

It's not irony, it's hypocrisy.

Signed

Alanis Morissette


:D You made me go and look it up...

"The song's usage of the word "ironic" attracted attention for what many feel is an improper application of the term. Some situations that Morissette describes in the song are arguably examples of cosmic irony: events that, as the Oxford English Dictionary puts it, appear "as if in mockery of the fitness or rightness of things", such as "a death row pardon/two minutes too late". Others appear to be merely unfortunate (not even improbable or coincidental), such as "a black fly/in your Chardonnay" or "A traffic jam/when you're already late." If one discounts cosmic irony, however, it is arguable that the song is ironic in and of itself - there is a fundamental incongruity in a song titled "Ironic" which ultimately contains no irony, an interpretation that Morissette herself has supported."

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ironic_(song)

A bit long, but I'm sure you'll agree, just what this thread needed :p

Looking forward to Durant's response to this discussion of the term, also SlateGray's if someone quotes him :lol:

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#3680 Internet

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:05

Probably best if this thread was locked as it's going nowhere fast.

#3681 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:10

Originally posted by Scudetto


Corrected for accuracy.


:lol:

Alonso 2X WDC
Hamilton 2X chocker

I do hope some new information comes out, perhaps Alonso has only been muzzled for a fixed period of time and at some point down the road he will be free to say what really happened to Hamilton's car, if he knows. Otherwise we might never know and the cloud of failure hanging over Hamilton’s head may become a permanent fixture.

#3682 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:13

Originally posted by Internet
Probably best if this thread was locked as it's going nowhere fast.


Translation; Hamilton fan wants it all to go away, perhaps there is a deep seated fear that Lewis did cause the problem and said fan does not want to know the truth.

#3683 Internet

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:15

Originally posted by SlateGray


Translation; Hamilton fan wants it all to go away, perhaps there is a deep seated fear that Lewis did cause the problem and said fan does not want to know the truth.


Look as a Hamilton fan, I am perfectly willing to accept that Hamilton caused the problem by pushing too hard, going off road and damaging his car. What I am not willing to accept is you claiming that Hamilton caused the problem by pressing the wrong button when there is video evidence and professional opinion along with information about Hamilton's car having a problem before the race pointing to the contrary. Good day.

#3684 Scudetto

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:21

Originally posted by SlateGray


:lol:

Alonso 2X WDC
Hamilton 2X chocker


An observation you're entitled to, but whereas you say "choked," I'd say he made some ill-advised rookie mistakes in key situations. Perhaps that's synonymous to some, so be it. Frankly, I've got no particular love for either one of them. They're both excellent drivers with copious talent. For me, the difference lies in how Alonso handled the situtation. Given his championships and experience, I expected more of him. In my eyes, the team's propensity to bootstrap Hamilton through the season, and the extreme hype Hamilton garnered, destabilized Alonso, who, rightly or wrongly, expected to the be focal point of the team's efforts. I'd have bags more respect for Alonso if he'd just kept his head down, ignored the noise, and got on with it. Instead, he chose to say and do some things which weren't complimentary to his character. That's MY opinion.

#3685 F1Johnny

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:23

Originally posted by Internet


Look as a Hamilton fan, I am perfectly willing to accept that Hamilton caused the problem by pushing too hard, going off road and damaging his car. What I am not willing to accept is you claiming that Hamilton caused the problem by pressing the wrong button when there is video evidence and professional opinion along with information about Hamilton's car having a problem before the race pointing to the contrary. Good day.


Don't waste your time with him. It is SlateGray's ill conceived, (IMO of course) opinion, which he will never change. IMO it is a case of him and his bias taking the matter too far and he can't find a way out of the hole he has dug. Leave him be.

#3686 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:28

Originally posted by SlateGray
I do hope some new information comes out, perhaps Alonso has only been muzzled for a fixed period of time and at some point down the road he will be free to say what really happened to Hamilton's car, if he knows. Otherwise we might never know and the cloud of failure hanging over Hamilton’s head may become a permanent fixture.

I asked you a while ago what would enable you to "know" what had happened here. I guess from this the answer is it's whatever Alonso says and nothing else. Nice hero worship. :lol:

#3687 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:29

Originally posted by F1Johnny
It is SlateGray's ill conceived, (IMO of course) opinion, which he will never change.


Again with telling people what others will think in the future :lol:

Still sticking to your assertion that Alonso condones racism based on no comments at all from Alonso?

#3688 robnyc

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:31

I find it really odd that so many are interested in proving Slate wrong and are having such a hard time at it..
I mean 10 pages on the button discussion in pushing it..
;)

#3689 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:33

Originally posted by Gareth

I asked you a while ago what would enable you to "know" what had happened here. I guess from this the answer is it's whatever Alonso says and nothing else. Nice hero worship. :lol:


If Mac come out and say, this is what happened I will believe them. Not what may have happened or could have happened or might have happened or did not happen but what DID actually go wrong, if they even know themselves.

If they make a clear statement indicating what happened I will accept it.

#3690 F1Johnny

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:35

Originally posted by SlateGray


Again with telling people what others will think in the future :lol:

Still sticking to your assertion that Alonso condones racism based on no comments at all from Alonso?


Whatever you say SlateGray. You're opinion is "right" as you have sucked much fact from the fact vacuum to come to your concrete conclusion.

I can't stick to an assertion I never made SlateGray.

I am really disappointed with your behaviour in this thread. I expected better from you.

#3691 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:51

Originally posted by SlateGray


If Mac come out and say, this is what happened I will believe them. Not what may have happened or could have happened or might have happened or did not happen but what DID actually go wrong, if they even know themselves.

If they make a clear statement indicating what happened I will accept it.

But you won't accept a statement on what didn't happen? :confused:

#3692 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 16:55

Originally posted by F1Johnny
I can't stick to an assertion I never made SlateGray.


Originally posted by F1Johnny
But he clearly has no problem with racism being perpetrated in his honour or support.


So people who condone racism are what then? Not racist?

#3693 SlateGray

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 17:00

Originally posted by Gareth

But you won't accept a statement on what didn't happen? :confused:


Well the only thing Mac seem to be 100% sure of is that Hamilton is not the direct cause of the problem, add that to the conflicting statements by Mac and the if's, could have been, might have been type statements and the denial just does not ring true for me. Please remember it is just MHO

#3694 F1Johnny

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 17:05

Originally posted by SlateGray
So people who condone racism are what then? Not racist?


We've been through this SlateGray. If you want to totally ignore the remainder of the discussion in that other thread, so be it. It will fit and perpetuate your disingenuous style of posting.

Originally posted by SlateGray

I beg to differ as there is no information whatever to base any decision on, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I am willing to assume Alonso is not a racist.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion.



Originally posted by F1Johnny
Fine. Your opinion. I also cannot conclude that Alonso is a racist, but I can conclude that I do not like his approach and it is serious enough a "moral negligence" in my view to warrant my forming a very negative opinion of him.


#3695 Gareth

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 17:16

Originally posted by SlateGray


Well the only thing Mac seem to be 100% sure of is that Hamilton is not the direct cause of the problem, add that to the conflicting statements by Mac and the if's, could have been, might have been type statements and the denial just does not ring true for me. Please remember it is just MHO

There have been no conflicting statements, ifs, could haves or might have beens on McLaren's statements about the "Hamilton pressed the wrong button" theory. There has been one clear and unequivocal statement on that.

There is also a video of the entire lap (2007 season review DvD) that shows that he did not press a button prior to the problem developing.

#3696 Buttoneer

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 17:31

Originally posted by Gareth

There is also a video of the entire lap (2007 season review DvD) that shows that he did not press a button prior to the problem developing.

Pah! It's not on youtube so it's not real.

#3697 undersquare

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 17:42

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Pah! It's not on youtube so it's not real.


It seems generally the most biased fanboys avoid recording races or spending $15 on the dvd, presumably to avoid any awkward conflicts... :lol:

Then among their little tricks we get "link please!" and "I'd like to see that".

#3698 Melbourne Park

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 20:57

Originally posted by SlateGray
MP if you would be so kind as to call be some names it would make my day.

Sorry, I don't know what you are asking me here?

#3699 Mauseri

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 03:31

Originally posted by Gareth
There is also a video of the entire lap (2007 season review DvD) that shows that he did not press a button prior to the problem developing.

But did he pull clutch :eek: :eek: :eek: