361 replies to this topic

[Zawed]

I was just reading Doug Nye's book on The history of the Grand Prix 1966-85, looking at the entry for Eagle. Apparently Richie Ginther just gave up one year, decided he was'nt going race any more after driving a few races for Eagle. I have read a bit about the racing across the 60s and it seems to me he was an underrated driver. Lots of podiums for Ferrari and BRM, and a race winner with Honda. What happened to him, where did he go?

[Megatron]

I think he got mad after a DNQ at Indy.

He was a fantastic driver in his day. Many forget that he actually tied Graham Hill in points in 1963 at BRM for second, and his name will be forever etched in history as the man who gave Honda thier first win in F1.

[Joe Fan]

Yes, Richie was a very underrated driver. Much like Masten Gregory, Richie never received the credit or attention he truly deserved in my opinion. Richie was noted for his mechanical knowledge and technical abilities of setting up a car. He scored points in his first six F1 starts. How many drivers have done that? In addition to giving Honda their first win, he also gave Goodyear tires their first win in Formula One.

As far as his death, my information states that he died of a heart attack just days after vactioning in France. He attended BRM's 40th anniversary celebrations just before this and apparently he looked frail and sick.

[Gil Bouffard]

According to a couple of knowledgable folk, Richie was considered a technical genius at Ferrari. He was the one that found "downforce," with the rear "spoiler," on the 246SP.

According to the same source, the mechanics at BRM thought he was a GOD!

Richie apparently had a problem pushing himself away from the bar. This according to a close friend of his. This didn't help his health at all.

Richie was a bit like Lauda, in that when it became no longer fun to race, he quit.

He ran an MG or Triumph (I believe), racing team for a while.

According to the president of the American Auto Racing Writers and Broadcasting Association (AARWBA), the current Automobile Quarterly has an excellent article on Richie.

Gil

[Hans Etzrodt]

There is a very good account about Richie Ginther in American Grand Prix Racing by Tim Considine. This is a very well researched book, which I recommend highly to anybody who visits this BB. It covers the years from 1908 to the 90's. I wish there were more books like this, a treasure chest of information and many pictures also. Once this book is out of print, people will chase after it.

The Ginther story in this book confirms that he was not in good health. It says, that in 1989 at a track reunion in Donington after driving the BRM, Ginther, then 59, had to be assisted out of the car. A few days later, while vacationing in France, his heart gave out.

[Zawed]

Thanks for the info, guys

[Joe Fan]

Like Hans, I too highly recommend the book American Grand Prix Racing by Tim Considine. It is a must have in my opinion. It will stand the test of time and even will be a great read for the non-American as well.

One thing that I would like to add is that I really liked Richie Ginther's personality in the interviews I have seen him in. He was a real down to earth guy who didn't hide behind a phoney facade.
[p][Edited by Joe Fan on 09-18-2000]

[f li]

Gil,

Perhaps you're thinking of Toyota when you said Triumph? I know he managed a team for Toyota when they ran those lovely 2000's (can't recall whether their proper name was 2000 GT's or GT-2000's). As a kid, I watched one of the races from the top of their transporter after Richie gave me permission.

[Gil Bouffard]

You're more right than I am, I remember that they were coupes and it was the last involvement in auto racing by Richie Ginther.

Gil

[GT Action Photo]

R.Ginther at 1960 Riverside Times GP
Photo: James W.LaTourrette


1959 Ferrari 246S Dino s/n 0784,Dick Merritt driving.
Photo: GT Action Photo

When Richie Ginther retired from racing, he moved to Mexico
and lived on a beach front location.
Richie and his brother were close friends to Phil Hill in
Southern Califorina in the early 1950s.

With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh

[Roger Clark]

I always thought of Ritchie Ginther as a good number two; he didn't have the speed and the determination to be a natural winner but he was a superb tester. His greatest race was surely Monaco in 1961, for which he would have received more recognition if Moss hadn't driven when of the best races in history the same day. He retired after failing to qualify for both Indianapolis and Monaco. He had the wisdom to see that he'd lost his motivation and the courage to retire immediately.

The following is an interview with Ginther from autocourse 1961. It's rather long, but i think it's interesting for the insights into Ginther's character and the life of a Ferrari driver in the early 60s.



Tester to the Prancing Horse

Ritchie Ginther is interviewed by Jerry Sloniger





RITCHIE GINTHER the race driver, cannot be separated from the dedicated' Ferrari tester who says flatly " 1 wanted to do testing and was very happy to get the job," when his Maranello duties are mentioned. He admits, " 1 inherited the job of test driver," and adds seriously " it has been very important to me in racing." In two years of direct race/test work he has established a very special niche in the Italian scheme of racing, moving from a non-contract driver who did well from the first to a vital part of the red competition machine.
It was never a simple matter of getting in and testing. As Ritchie notes, the Ferrari mechanics are individuals. " They have a lot of pride, and feel that a driver is a driver and a mechanic a mechanic. This could be a handicap because a lot of times 1 like to get in and do something myself, to understand it better. We have had some changes now and everything goes along fine."

Living in Maranello with wife Jackie and Puck, their strong-minded dachshund, Ritchie is always handy, although his between race duties aren't arranged on any set schedule. 1 go over two or three times a day," he comments. " If they want anything all they have to do is have the gate keeper come across. The hotel is right across from the factory."
The Ginther-Ferrari rapport has been eased considerably through the months with increasing confidence on both sides, but a simple thing like learning the language has made a big difference too. Ritchie says, " 1 picked up the Italian to pass my thoughts on over here. Never had any foreign language at school in Santa Monica (California)." As he says, " all of the mechanics speak only Italian. Anything done with them or the engineers has to be done in Italian."
This vital link in the test programme grew one step at a time. Ritchie remembers, " 1 knew a key Italian word and somebody knew a key English word. With a bunch of hand signals, we got the point over. Most of my vocabulary is technical, no question. Conversation-wise I'm very limited." He grinned and added, " Jackie has quite a few books on grammar, language and that. She studies a lot." The life of a test driver's wife is obviously filled with hotel rooms and suitcases. Ritchie admits, " we're getting used to hotel living but we don't like it. We're both very homesick for California, even if we are learning how to pack bags."
There is a definite routine to testing, as separate from racing. Ritchie is careful to explain his part like this. " 1 do all the testing before the cars are sent to a race to see if they are right." He digressed a moment to make a point that all the Ferrari men test their own cars as well and continued. The only thing we can tell on that sort of test, of course, is whether the gearbox, clutch, engine and so forth work properly. It's a routine at Modena, our test track. 1 take the cars that are going to a race out for about ten laps apiece and then tell them of any little problems."
This is the every-day side of Ferrari reliability and the side Ritchie Ginther prefers to discuss. He is careful to point out the differences a circuit can make, saying, " our test track at Modena is unique of course. What makes a car go fast there doesn't have to work anywhere else." But the personality of the cars can be judged.
Ritchie says, " if 1 have experienced something and it has registered strongly enough 1 can come in and say the toe-in isn't proper or something like that. Once you get used to our cars you can tell easily when one shock isn't equal. Right or left particularly. Fore and aft is more difficult. This is of great importance to me in racing and of great importance to them too."
Actually he didn't drop into factory testing for the first time last season after joining the factory team. Ritchie worked previously with the California Ferrari outlet and spent some time in Italy on their problems. He remembers, " one time when 1 came over they didn't have a test driver and 1 did quite a bit on sport cars for them," He prefers the full race and test routine to the business end, although the California job did help him think in metric terms and to know Ferraris intimately. As he says, " 1 can picture 10 mm as easily as 125 thousandths."
The wiry American's background in mechanics is a mixture of natural curiosity and practical schooling. He says, " 1 had no formal engineering training, apart from taking all the mechanical shops 1 could in school. I took machine shop and auto shop and mechanical drawing and things like that. Right after school I went to work for Douglas Aircraft in tool and die and you have to read blueprints and understand why things are done a certain way - not just how. You learn a lot about materials for instance."
From there, and in between riding and driving stints, Ritchie did two years in the service which included the Aircraft and Engine Mechanics school. He notes, " 1 learned a tremendous amount. Things you accept but don't go into. All this has aided me all through this project." Thus is a test driver who can handle the cars at race speeds started. As Ritchie says, " being just a test driver wouldn't interest me but being part of an engineering staff and testing does."
The race interest came naturally from being around the cars.

Phil Hill lived down the block in California and was schoolmate of Ritchie's brother. Ritchie rode with him in Pan Americana race " and helped him work on his car, or car driving over all the different canyon roads along the we coast." Incidentally, Ritchie grins and adds, " I'm not a old car fan like Phil. 1 can appreciate them and look at the but 1 don't have any desire to start a collection or restore the 1 have helped him with his but not a whole lot."
His own racing began fairly tentatively in 1951 at the no defunct Pebble Beach run. Then came military service Ritchie remembers, " 1 didn't start racing again myself until 1954 or 1955. That was an Austin Healey. From there 1 we to Porsche and from Porsches to Ferraris where I've bee ever since. In between 1 raced some Astons." The climb as driver parallels many Americans who have found their way t Europe. In Ritchie's words, " 1 came to Le Mans in 1957 t drive a two-litre Chinetti entry and was in Sebring the firs time in 1957 as well, driving a two-litre with Howard Hivel Chinetti was definitely a part of my coming here, like Phil an probably every American who came to Europe."
Thus the path to testing led via racing. With each event hi value to the team as a trial driver became stronger, though h will not say so himself. Ritchie did say, " 1 definitely intended to do the testing this year (1961). It was my job from the first 1 mean, many drivers dislike the idea of having to test. The consider it a bother and are more interested in racing itself Whereas 1 have a lot of mechanical interest and it was a good opportunity to learn the cars. 1 am familiar with the refinements."
Such a discussion always comes back to that language barrier. Ritchie admits, " sometimes 1 get frustrated enough to pick up the tools and try to do it myself, when 1 can get to the car. When 1 just can't get the point across." As the season progressed he was allowed to " get to the car " mo and more often, as he and the engineers of Ferrari found common ground in ideas and - just as important - in language. They both know what a " piccolo " change mean now. Ritchie says. " we understand each other. If the engineer says there'll be a little bit of difference that's what I'm looking for. If he says this might not work at all but try it I'm just out on my own. being very careful."
The test programme benefits because " we work well together now," as he says. " They're not afraid to tell me what the change is because we understand each other. They know, that if my lap times are good it's working and if they aren't good something isn't working. They don't feel I'm by the knowledge of what we've done."

This carries over to racing but not always and entirely to the benefit of fast laps by Ginther. Asked if he was very conscious of his dials during a race Ritchie answered promptly, " yes, too conscious of them, really, because in testing you have to watch them all the time and it becomes a habit. During a race it only distracts from your job. Take Rheims. There has been a lot of talk about oil pressures but 1 was aware mine was down from the start of the race and it concerned me. 1 dropped my revs right from the start. 1 took 500 off the red line and eventually another 500.
" Once 1 moved into the lead the writing was on the wall. The pressure was going down lap by lap and 1 was sure 1 wouldn't finish. 1 stopped primarily because there was a drastic fault in the engine and 1 didn't want to destroy it. As it happened 1 managed not to by shutting off quickly enough. 1 hate to see anything broken."
This love of fine machinery explains his strong views on the form Grand Prix racing must take for him. Specifically he has positive views on driving to lead the race or driving to finish. " There's no question about it," he insists, " 1 drive to finish. Maybe that's not the proper attitude, 1 don't know, but 1 do it. There are two ways of driving, no question. You can drive to finish, which to me is very important, or you can drive to lead and stand a chance of not finishing which 1 don't endorse." Thinking a minute, he added, " 1 always drive to win. That's the whole essence of racing; if you can win by going faster yourself rather than by abusing the machine."
The word " odds " appears in any discussion Ritchic holds on racing. He emphatically doesn't mean racing luck but rather the percentages for and against the machinery coming through with flying colours. And he brooks no opinion that the chance lies with the machine. He obviously lays the praise or blame squarely on the driver-and does his job accordingly. This too is a facet of the test driver.
" If something happens to your car when you're driving to the limit," he explains, " it can just happen and that's that. But 1 can't endorse abusing the car to stay in front. Take Ferraris. They are damn strong cars, probably stronger than any others that are really competitive. And 1 want to lead, but if 1 have to over-rev to do it 1 just won't. The odds against the machine finishing are long enough and they fall off completely when you take it out on the car. If you start moving the red line up another 500, for instance, that's going fast the wrong way."
This is a basic reason for his love of testing, and the reason for his perplexed look when asked why some drivers don't like it. " It's hard to say. Maybe some don't have any mechanical knowledge whatsoever. Maybe some are racing selfishly. They only want to race for the glory and not for the true accomplishment." He added again, " It's very difficult to say," and apparently filed the question mentally to consider later. Ritchie does that.
He is very sure he wouldn't like the old Auto Union system where the drivers weren't allowed an opinion. " Not unless there was some interim person with the responsibility for getting the car right on the track." He explains, " you can take all the machines and processes you want and set a car up properly on the gauges but it doesn't mean it will be proper on the race track. There's no question it makes a difference when a team has a Chapman or an Uhlenhaut. A capable designer who can take the car on the track is the ideal situation."
Speaking of the Ferraris in particular Ritchie admits, " up to this point we definitely had a distinct advantage in Formula 1 and no need to bring on anything more. There were oil troubles with the wide angle motor when we started, from the flat design. It was a problem that hadn't existed before because the oil didn't drain out of the flat vee and cam boxes. It was solved by work on the channels and scavange pumps." This is one of the fields where he steers clear of specific answers. Heating problems fall into the same category. Ferrari's tester notes, " they sometimes run hot but we aren't getting into overheating at all." Incidentally, one car seemed hotter at Rheims than would be good for it, but it turned out to be a faulty gauge.
Specific temperatures or pressures are not a Ginther subject for discussion. Ritchie can quote them without reference sheets but he states frankly, " 1 don't think temperatures and such are of any interest to the general public." His reasoning goes like this: " 1 am completely free at the factory. 1 can go into any department 1 please, including experimental, only because 1 never said anything to anybody. The temperatures or pressures, for instance, can't do any other builder any good but the point is, once the factory starts seeing that 1 am telling people about their cars it becomes more difficult for me."
Being able to follow a " mod." from conception to the track is more than part of his job to Ritchie, it is the basis for his driving style and he is understandably reluctant to change that. " If 1 don't understand the reason for a change it's very difficult to test it. We had that problem in the past, where 1 didn't know and they weren't getting full benefit of a test drive. Now 1 make a point to be right at the beginning and follow through drawing, casting, machining, assembly - right down the line.
Admitting that the opposition was lighter than expected, Ritchie added, " actually we found our cars were pretty versatile. Take Aintree. We practiced in the dry and raced in the wet but the change was pretty much a matter of tyres. We have very little chance to test in the wet at Modena. It started to rain one day, for instance, and we were going to pack it up. You don't like to get all wet testing, but to me it was very important to take advantage of the spell to see how the problem showed itself there."
Digressing, in answer to a question, Ritchie agreed, " there must be such a thing as a rain driver, I'm sure. 1 think any good driver should be able to do both. Everybody asks me if I'm a rain driver and 1 say no, because 1 don't like it. But still, it rains during races and you have to drive so there's only one thing to do."
As for style, he admits " 1 am a study-driver in a sense. That's another advantage of testing. You can try different lines in the turns and look at your lap times to see what difference it made. You discover a lot of tricks in testing to make a car go faster without going any faster yourself or frightening yourself or something. This is another phase where testing helped me. It's all knowledge." Applying that knowledge proves his confidence. He very frankly likes monopostos better, " and it's a shame because 1 like them to the extent that 1 can only drive them well. Our new sports car (rear-engined) is so much better that 1 enjoy it very much but generally speaking 1 don't care for sports car racing over here."
The reason is his independence. " 1 like the responsibility of driving the car myself. In a sports car race you are driving with somebody and maybe they're doing a good job up in the first three places or something. If you go out and crash you've not only dropped yourself out but ruined all the work your codriver has done as well."
Ritchie is very conscious of the limits a new driver faces. Learning the cars from testing is only part of his work, and he considers racing very much a job of work. He can tell you honestly that he didn't have the self-confidence at a given race to go faster, and add with equal candour, " 1 think it's built up considerably this year. Take Spa. 1 went thinking 1 was a novice driver. 1 wanted to keep this thought in mind and concentrate on learning the circuit very well. It is a dangerous circuit but 1 approached that race with a very good mental attitude. Now 1 feel 1 know the circuit a little, although not intimately." He is very aware of the limits, another grant from testing. As Ritchie says, " 1 always leave safety margins everywhere in testing. You are trying new things or cars back from a race that haven't been rebuilt, only inspected. You have to leave that margin." He didn't say so, but it exists in his racing as well.
Like racing, testing is a matter of approach. Ritchie approaches both realistically. " Most testing is just trial and error," he admits, " which is why 1 never say ' do such and such.' You indicate the directions, that's all."
Ritchie's direction in racing is already sign-posted. Choosing his words very carefully he explains, " 1 do not feel that as a driver 1 am a public figure though this is not true of all drivers. 1 would rather not be one. 1 enjoy racing for myself. It's like testing. You try a lot of things that don't work and everybody wants to know what it was you tried. If it didn't work why tell anybody and if it does why let them all know?" In other words, it's a careful, planned business of doing better with a feeling for the machinery.
Or, as Jackie Ginther commented after Monte Carlo, " he's a lot easier to live with when he does a good job out there."

[Zawed]

Good article Roger, thanks

[Dave Ware]

Ginther ran a team of Porsches in the early seventies and I believe the late sixties. I do know that in '71 he ran a 911 at Le Mans for SCCA driver Alan Johnson and future star Elliott Forbes-Robinson (there's that name again!).

On the cover of Johnson's first edition of "Driving in Competition" are Johnson and EFR in 914s at Riverside, and I believe these are Richie's entries.

Richie was mightly pissed off at not having a guaranteed starting spot at the '67 Monaco race (or was it '66?), and that's why he quit F1.

Dan Gurney once said of Richie that after he retired from racing, he just dropped out of sight.

Richie was a mechanic for Phil Hill in California at one point. There was a photo of one of Phil's early races, Carrol Speedway, I believe, and the caption indicated that a person in the background, jumping and waving to cheer on his driver, was Richie.

Dave

[Joe Fan]

I have just come across information which gives Richie Ginther credit for making the first Ford GT40 drivable at Le Mans in 1964. Apparently, these cars were practically undrivable down the Mulsanne straight in practice/testing and it was Richie's advice and expertise that made the cars stable enough so that they were drivable.

[Huw Jenjin]

Both Bruce McLaren and Roy Salvadori were involved in the development of the GT40. I find it hard to believe that these two let a problem like that slip through their fingers, is this fact or heresay?

[Mike Argetsinger]

Both Roy Salvadori and Bruce McLaren identified the high speed handling problem of the GT-40 early on in testing - at least as early as Monza in October'63 with the prototype. Roy was particularly outspoken on the point although Bruce was in general agreement. The issue was that at that point in the development program they (the test drivers)had trouble convincing the engineeers (Roy Lunn, Eric Broadley and John Wyer's people) that there was in fact a problem. By the following spring -in testing at Goodwood, Silverstone, and at the LeMans trials - the car had only improved marginally (by Roy's point of view)although Bruce was less outspoken about the problems. According to Roy, John Wyer had the idea to fit a spoiler and the last time he (Roy) tested the car it was with the spoiler in place and he felt the car transformed and the high speed stability problem solved and generally that a real breakthrough had been achieved. Roy withdrew from the program at this time - Bruce obviously stayed. Now where Richie Ginther fits in to the development phase I don't know on a first hand basis, although I will look it up. I would not doubt that he played a major role in developing the car to be as great as it ultimately became - he was after all a great intuitive engineer and test driver. But I only think it is fair to note that Salvadori and McLaren had first identified the problem (specifically the high speed stability issue as posted here above) and were part of the solution.

[Roger Clark]

Mike's story is consistent with my understanding. At the 1964 Le Mans trials Jo Schlesser had a massive accident caused by high speed instability. There was much debate within the team as to whether the problem was aerodynamic or was caused by a fault in the rear suspensioon. Following the trials they took the car to the MIRA test facility and experimented with spoilers which cured the problem.

This was before Ginther joined the team, although he had been involved with a similar problem and cure for Ferrari in 1961.

[Joe Fan]

Mike, Phil Hill is the one who said that Richie Ginther deserved credit for solving the GT40 handling and instability problems at Le Mans in '64. I have John Wyer, Carroll Shelby, Phil Hill all on one video tape talking about the GT40 and yes, what you are saying is correct but Phil Hill gave Richie the credit for making the car drivable at Le Mans in 1964.

[Mike Argetsinger]

As I attempted to make clear - I have no doubt in my mind that Richie Ginther played a major role - perhaps even a decisive role for all I know. And if Phil Hill said it, it is good enough for me. His information would be the best available. It is a fact though that at the MIRA test session -the last one Roy Salvadori was involved in - they were clearly headed in the right direction and for the first time had identified that spoilers were going to be the answer.

[Ray Bell]

Frank Gardner told me that Richie shot himself (or gassed himself) in a caravan in Mexico. I have subsequently posted this on threads on this forum. I don't know if I have any other confirmation of either detail (where and how), but I don't believe there is any conflict in my mind with other information. I feel very sure he died in Mexico.

Edit: Moving along to 2014. As I have posted above, this was what Frank Gardner told me.

Shot or gassed himself - obviously untrue.

Caravan in Mexico - quite possible. After crossing desert areas of the US and seeing thousands of people living in caravans or 'trailer homes' it is not to be discounted that he may have been in one of these.

Something else Frank said at that time, and I didn't post this, was that he was alone. Clearly he had a partner in life and so it all seems to be a story Frank had heard and passed on or some kind of sour grapes.

It all came in the middle of a discussion about testing and in reference to my comment that Richie was said to be a 'human dynamometer'.

Edited by Vitesse2, 02 November 2014 - 10:55.

[Elspeth]

In the early sixties he lived in my home town & we used to see him around town on his motorcycle. And he had some kind of race car he was working on in his garage.[p][Edited by Elspeth on 10-04-2000]

[MN]

Originally posted by f li
.....(can't recall whether their proper name was 2000 GT's or GT-2000's)......

2000GT. Yamaha project with Toyota name tag.
Collectors item in Japan, about us$150K or more.

[Ray Bell]

Magic car, if a bit busy in the styling, led the Japanese industry out of its shallow mediocrity...

[Barry Lake]

Toyota 2000GT?
I remember seeing one up at Town & Country Garage where I used to dyno test my race engines. The owner had tossed the original engine and shoe-horned in a Leyland P76 V8 engine. I'll bet he kicks himself when he sees $150,000 price tags on original units now.

[Ray Bell]

Bill Buckle had one, Barry, and I think there was another one in Australia... remember any more?

[Dennis David]

Dear Mr. David,
I don't know if you are the person who can correct some of the misinformation concerning my father-in-law, Richie Ginther, that appears on your website, but I'm assuming you are because the site has your name on it.

In his later years, Richie did not live in a trailer. He lived in a lovely beachside house in Baja with Cleo Von Neumann, who is now Cleo Davidson. Granted, much of the money it took to build this house might have been supplied by Cleo's divorce from John Von Nuemann, however, Richie did have a business of his own after he retired from racing which he sold before moving to Mexico. He also sold his home, bought a motorhome, and traveled the United States, some of the time with his son, my husband Bret.

I don't mean to sound defensive, but it is a common misconception that Richie's life ended along with his racing career and that he turned into a homeless bum. It is a perception that he himself had to fight and now, since he cannot speak for himself, I feel someone should.
Cathy Ginther

[Dave Ware]

Well, thank Cathy Ginther for us for providing some accurate info on her father-in-law.

Perhaps when he's done with his Masten Gregory book, JF can write one about Richie and set the record straight.

Dave

[MoMurray]

Someone made mention of the great book "American Grand Prix Racing" earlier in this thread. I have a copy of the book and one of the great things about the book is although published in 1997, it remains absolutely accurate and not a bit dated. That is also one of the saddest things about American Grand Prix Racing. No American driver has come along to make this book obsolete since it was published. Good book but a poor reflection on US racing in the year 2000.

Bobby Rahal is the CEO of a team...does that count? Only if Bobby remembers where he came from when the time comes to choose drivers (although both of his champcar drivers are non American). I know the teams are commercial entities and so must act in their best financial interest and I don't blame them. However, the much feted US GP at Indy will surely fail if an American driver is not promoted through to F1. There is plenty of talent available so what is the problem. Is corporate America not doing it's part. Is NASCAR sucking in all the talent and sponsorship that might push a US driver to F1. I don't know the answers. Also, as I am not American, I am sure this is not just nationalistic pride. But surely a country the size of the US with such a rich heritage and involvement in motorsports should be represented.



Mo

[Dave Ware]

Corporate America is definately not doing it's part...you could also say that CART is not doing it's part to market CART to make it a good investment for potential advertisers.

We also have our version of Football, Baseball, etc...many other countries don't have those distractions. I'm told that in Brazil there are two sports of consequence: Soccer and Auto Racing. And you can see how many racers that country is producing, often with corporate sponsorship to make it possible. America just has too much going on.

Jimmy Vasser had the chance to join Villenuve at BAR when the team was new. I continually wish he had taken it.

Dave

[Jaxs]

I'm confused, I was under the impression that the majority of the testing and sorting of the GT40's was carried out by the FoMoCo test driver, the much under rated Ken Miles or was that the Mark II

[Barry Lake]

There is a very nice story, 12 pages, on Richie Ginther in Automobile Quarterly Vol 40 No 2, May 2000.
The writer has interviewed those close to Ginther and has a lot of accurate detail on his post-racing life.
A lot of nice photographs too - both racing and personal.

[bobbo]

Some great info here!

Wanted to bring it up front again!

Bobbo

[Jim Thurman]

Interesting stuff...I haven't had much chance to go back through old threads yet.

The only thing I can add (and hope I didn't miss mention of it) is on Richie's post driving team manager role. In addition to the Toyotas and Porsche 914 team, he fielded a Super Vee team in 1972/73 with EFR driving. I believe that was his last team.


Jim Thurman

[Buford]

Tim Considine, the author mentioned above, played "Spin" in the "Spin and Marty" series on the original "Mickey Mouse Club". Same guy. OK, as you were...

[stevew]

I'm sure everyone knows this, but I remember reading about the spoilers on those early '60s sports cars.

What I read was that the airflow over the top and back end of the car was so clean that it created lift at high speed, creating instability. When a spoiler was added, it didn't so much create downforce, but reduced the lift by "spoiling" the airflow over the back of the car.

[dretceterini]

I'm a memeber of a group called BUBBAS (Burbank Underground Breakfast and Automotive Historical Society). (I'm the youngster of the group, at 54)

We meet once a moth on the first saturday at the Coral Cafe in Burbank, California to shoot the bull about car stuff. Tim Considine, Jim Sitz, Bob Falcon, Mike Lynch, Dave Scully, John Thompson, Bob Tronolone, Woody Woodhouse and quite a few other guys and gals usually show up. Max Balchowsky and Strother McMinn used to come before they passed away, and Boris Said was there just a few days before he passed away. (damn, too many good people gone)...

Anyone is welcome!! If you happen to be in or near Los Angeles on the first saturday of any month, e-mail me and I'll give you directions; hell, I'll even pick you up if it's easier...


BTW, Ed Niles, the Ferrari dealer/collector has Richie's scrap book. I have hear the "rumors" that he killed himself, but always doubted it....he was pretty ill though...

Stu

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Wolf
.....in mine too much work...

Really?

You know, Wolf, that's the first time I've ever seen you mention that four letter word!

dretceterini... that would be a great little place to spend a few hours... wish I could make it. There is a similar 'Old and Bold' get together in Melbourne from time to time, again, with dwindling numbers...

[Carlos Jalife]

I used to go to Tijuana often and in the Rosarito beach, about 30 kilometers south, Richie lived for some time. Locals sort of knew him, I know because I asked and was pointed to his motorhome. He wasn't in the social circuit as many retirees were but he was known as the 'gringo who had been a driver'. I think I saw him, it must have been him, and said hello a couple of times but I never had the nerve to ask for an autograph, the man seemed like a normal guy and he lived with some woman. Later he moved elsewhere nearby (now I know it was to a beach house with Cleo vN) but he kept going back to the lobsters/rice/beans/beer places in the beach near where his trailer/motrhome was originally.
I heard he died in Mexico and people would say it was of age, since he looked quite frail and a lot older than he was. And I heard he drank quite a bit of beer but he was no bum or anything. Just a man who was a former famous person living his life in anonimity. but he was like a local milestone, sort of. There were all sorts of stories about him being a Baja 1000 champ and I always tried to set them straight, and I would point out he raced against the Rodriguez brothers in F1, which was the easiest signpost Mexicans could relate to. But he was like respected, part of the local folklore.
That's what I know, hope it helps.
And of course, he ran with Pedro in 1966 Le Mans, they were the only ones giving Ford a run for their money and they even led at the very beginning, but their ar wouldn't take the punishment of being the only Ferrari in the race (the rest were like very off-pace) and they had to stop frequently until they quit. Pedro liked Richie a lot for his never say die attitude.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Buford
Tim Considine, the author mentioned above, played "Spin" in the "Spin and Marty" series on the original "Mickey Mouse Club". Same guy. OK, as you were...

Not to mention playing the oldest son on the "My Three Sons" TV series.

And one heck of a good motorsports writer. I still remember my surprise the first time I saw his name listed as authoring a magazine piece, not realizing what an enthusiast he had been for years.


Jim Thurman

[Doug Nye]

Reading through this thread there seems to be a dearth of final confirmation of where, when, how little Richie's life ended.

Could we just finally make it plain that he did not die in penury in a caravan (trailer US) in Mexico. Hans's original understanding was accurate. He died in France of congestive heart failure after a lengthy period of extreme frailty, despite his relative youth.

As a kid, I believe, he had suffered a heart murmur. His father, working for Douglas aircraft at Santa Monica (?) died young from alleged heart problems, and his older brother George seems to have gone the same way (though after really abusing his body by some accounts) so there may have been something congenital perhaps?

In 1989 Richie was invited by Rubery Owen to Donington Park to appear together with Gonzalez in a commemorative BRM film being shot there. Everyone who saw him there was extremely shocked by his all-too-evident ill health. Poor guy was a wreck.

Sadly, perhaps, he was prevailed upon to drive one of the cars. After a brief trundle he had to be helped from the cockpit. He was obviously in a very bad way, and he confided to old friends present - including I believe Bette Hill, Graham's widow - that "That was the worst experience of my entire life....". He was extremely upset and depressed. Wife Cleo helped him away to the hotel, and next day they crossed the Channel (again, this is what I have been told) to a pre-arranged holiday home in France. Very shortly after arriving there Richie suffered a fatal heart attack.

Some who were very close to Richie remember him as alternating between a lovely, capable, confident and competent engineer/driver/personality - and a dark, troubled, combative, chippy little man, deeply unhappy with his own stature (in all meanings of the word), and embittered by what he perceived as lack of recognition of his capabilities and achievements. From an early age he had been fiery, just one word out of place or perceived as a slight or criticism could see him spark up like a fighting bantam.... Through his early career while the average graph was rising he had found compensations. Later when the graph abruptly levelled, then dropped, his dark side grew darker and ever more prevalent. When his health failed Richie Ginther appears to have been eaten up from inside not only physically but mentally.

I have nothing other than hearsay evidence for the above - but the sources I promise you are first-hand and normally unimpeachable.

DCN

[lynmeredith]

A sad story Doug that brought a tear to my eye. I like to remember him from his time with Honda in the mid 60s when he gave Goodyear its first F1 win. He was greatly respected and well-liked. He seemed to be nice chap.

Lyn M

[Buford]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman


Not to mention playing the oldest son on the "My Three Sons" TV series.

And one heck of a good motorsports writer. I still remember my surprise the first time I saw his name listed as authoring a magazine piece, not realizing what an enthusiast he had been for years.


Jim Thurman

Yeah - I had forgotten about the "My Three Sons" role.

[Ralliart]

Ginther was team manager for Jo Siffert's Can Am effort in '69 for Porsche, assisted Steve McQueen in '70 as the actor was racing and gearing up for his film "Le Mans" on a 908, was invited to Europe in '77 to be ready to take part in Goodyear's umpteenth win and Lauda took care of that at Hockenheim with Ginther on the podium.
Ginther went to Indy in '67, couldn't get it up and quit on the spot - that's how I heard it.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Interesting stuff...I haven't had much chance to go back through old threads yet.

The only thing I can add (and hope I didn't miss mention of it) is on Richie's post driving team manager role. In addition to the Toyotas and Porsche 914 team, he fielded a Super Vee team in 1972/73 with EFR driving. I believe that was his last team.


Jim Thurman

In his June 1972 Letter from Europe, DSJ reports a chance meeting with Richie at an unnamed European circuit, where he was shepherding an American FSV driver (EFR presumably) in a Europe-USA match race. Very little detail, but the race was apparently won by a Liechtensteiner, so that should narrow it down a bit.

[David M. Kane]

DCN that was absolutely brillant. Thank you for a very human overview of this complex talent. I feel much, much better now and in a way at peace.

[dretceterini]

Mr.Nye:


BRAVO!!




Stu

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


In his June 1972 Letter from Europe, DSJ reports a chance meeting with Richie at an unnamed European circuit, where he was shepherding an American FSV driver (EFR presumably) in a Europe-USA match race. Very little detail, but the race was apparently won by a Liechtensteiner, so that should narrow it down a bit.

Must be Rikki von Opel.

[sat]

Manfred Schurti win 3 races in 1972 Castrol Goldpokal, but i have no evidence about american competitors in this races.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
DCN that was absolutely brillant. Thank you for a very human overview of this complex talent. I feel much, much better now and in a way at peace.

Yes, indeed... and sad to learn he found driving the BRM such a problem.

And I'll express my sincere apologies for having introduced Frank Gardner's statement to this discussion.

Lyn... those times with Honda must have been great for him too, leading the team, developing the car, heavily involved with the tyre development too. The highlight of his career, surely? The days ye rode the most highly-strung horse in the race...

[Jack-the-Lad]

I believe I've posted elsewhere that a proper Ginther biography is long overdue. Perhaps our own DCN would be the best hope for this to happen. Ginther was certainly a complex man and an underappreciated driver whose story deserves telling.

Jack