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Speed's ultimate price: the toll...


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#51 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 14:20

The Talbot and Schuppan thing I could have got mixed up, but I knew it was a car going slow and another unsighted, but the wing end plate, I never knew that... I was told it was nosediving into the fence and the support bar buckling up...
Mustn't listen so closely to Jonesy any more...
As for the pulley, I think I recall Bruce telling me that, too.

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#52 Barry Lake

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 14:21

Reg Smith was killed at Bathurst October 1960 - I saw that one. Same spot as all the rest were killed at Bathurst, after the second hump. During the Australian GT Championship. I was on the pit crew of Johnny Caines' ex-Paul England Ausca in the same race (erk! does that mean I am old? Nah!)
Ian Mountain, Orange (Gnoo Blas) January 1955. I wasn't there but remember it was the year before I first went there. That was January 1956, the first time Reg Hunt drove his 250F in Australia. Also the first appearance of Jack Neal's Jaguar Special that later became the Jagford (I must remember to give Jim Larkin a call, haven't spoken to him for four or five eyars now).

#53 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 14:25

Showing your age, all of which was three years and more before I ever saw Bathurst...
Generator on the Vee, not alternator... small difference, but a matter of fact, I suppose.

#54 Barry Lake

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 14:28

You mentioned Clyde Hodgins. A fellow who pit crewed for me a few times around 1966-1967 used to always dive for the Sun-Herald newspaper on Sunday when he saw someone with it, saying, "Can I read Clyde's Clangers please?"
He used to break up laughing at the ridiculous mistakes.
Remember, when future historiands go back to "original source" material, Clyde's Clanger's will be among them. I hope they will be able to sort she sh*t from the clay.
Wasn't it Clyde who raced a Daimler SP250 in Production Sports Cars at Warwick Farm, very slowly, then gave his inexperienced (driving-wise that is) girlfriend Virginia Lighezzolo a drive and she was quicker than he was? I think she drove it all the time after that.

#55 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 14:36

When John Scott-Davies ran the Lola T70 at the Farm (the one Geary bought and later put on the road), he reported that it would be raced by 'Archie Scott-Thomas.'
Bob and I broke up over that, because we knew that KB had a hand in the preparation and had probably thrown the wrong name to 'Clod Hygene' deliberately.

#56 Barry Lake

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 14:37

I wanted to write generator but my memory said Bruce had called it an alternator. I thought maybe he knew something I didn't. After all, I know of someone who drove a Type (35 or 37?) Bugatti in Vintage events with an alternator hidden under the seat driven by a belt from the tailshaft. One way of overcoming vintage electrical gremlins but not really in the spirit of things. So I thought maybe they did the same with Vees.
The Vee I had in the 1980s had a generator, but then it had a lot of old stuff on it. My Vee specialist told me I had everything his car had, but I couldn't get near his times. So I entered young Paul Stokell - king of the Vee drivers back then - in my car at Amaroo Park, where he was an ace. He couldn't overtake anyone and was passed by a few. He came back and said, "If that's the best they can do for you, I'd suggest you sell it." So I did. More bad memories to add to the list. There is a story behind what happened, but not for telling here. That's another one for "The Book" to be published after my funeral.

#57 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 14:42

Have you set a date for that yet?

What Vee did you have and who prepared same?

#58 Barry Lake

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 15:05

I can't mention names I might finish up in trouble.
As for the date of the funeral, it will have to be after I finish all my unfinished projects, perhaps around 2037 or so. You had better stick around because I am planning to have the wake before the funeral so I can attend, and I will have a whole horde of hot looking dancing girls there. It's going to be a hell of a party - very similar to my 40th birthday party (which I haven't had yet due to lack of funds and time).

Jokes aside, you mentioned Mike Kable elsewhere. I went to his funeral and the wake or whatever you call it afterwards. Mike asked me, and I assume most other people, to have a good time, not to be morbid. There was a large roll-up at Cronulla RSL Club. It had a huge dining room with spectacular views up Cronulla and North Cronulla beaches. The big crowd included many ex-drivers - Frank Matich among them, and everyone had a great time. Mike would have loved it.
He could be a pain in the butt at times, especially if you travelled with him (driving to Melbourne for the AGP and 11 days in Italy for the Fiat centenary are two recent experiences I am trying to forget) but he was passionate about motoring and motor sport and did a lot of good for the sport over the years in various ways.
And he went out in style - Alfa Romeo funeral cars and all.
I'll bet he had a smile on his face!

#59 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 15:09

Now we get serious... any of those dancing girls looking for me?
I'll make it for the wake, but I don't think I can make the birthday..

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#60 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 06 October 2000 - 17:07

Originally posted by fines
Oh, and it was Nov 25, 1920, BTW!

Hans, what about the date format ;)!


Michael,
You are right! Gaston Chevrolet died instantly at the crash on 25 November 1920, whereas O'Donnel died the following day.

#61 Barry Lake

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Posted 08 October 2000 - 15:13

I am not sure if this is on the origianl list, but here's one not well known, I believe:

Don Beauman, born 26 July 1928, killed when he crashed his Connaught sports car during the Leinster Trophy 9 July 1955.
The circuit is not mentioned, I should know it from the race title, but it won't come to me at the moment. Perhaps someone like Roger Clark would know, without having to look for it.

#62 Eric McLoughlin

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Posted 08 October 2000 - 15:47

Although it's well before my time - the Leinster Trophy was usually held on public roads at the Curragh Army Camp, County Kildare, not far from where the Gordon Bennnet races were held and also not far from the modern Mondello Park circuit.

#63 Roger Clark

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Posted 08 October 2000 - 16:35

The 1955 Leinster TRophy was held on a road circuit in County Wicklow. THe Autosport report says that conditions were very hot and that te road surface had started to melt. It implies that this contributed towards Beaumann's accident, but a later letter from the President of the Leinster MC denied this.

The race was a handicap, won by David Piper in a 750cc Lotus MG. Beaumann recorded fastest lap on his first of the race. He crashed on his second.

#64 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 October 2000 - 20:54

What a mental picture... a Lotus 6 with a P-type MG engine!
Sorry, that's off topic..
I've got a lot of dates for you Barry, will probably post them tonight.

#65 Indy500

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Posted 08 October 2000 - 21:43

Pfew,

I have got myself quite a job. I just updated my list and it's huge.
I expected to find a few more dates, but thats an understatement.
I profes that racing is a sport, but not a game !

Has anyone got somekind of data on the 24 hours of Spa Franchorchamps, I remmeber that on the old circuit their were some casualties and I remmember an accident on the new circuit on top of the radillion there was a crash involving a French reporter that was driving a Porsche 924 in the 24 hours, but i can't figure out who he was, and when it happend.

There are also a lot of men who died when racing Paris-Dakar anyone got something on that ?

What about motorracing ? I'm thinking of the Manx TT for example. Last year i read an article that said that there were 199 pilots killed on the mountain circuit. Any comment an that ?




#66 Indy500

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Posted 08 October 2000 - 21:43

BTW,

For those who want the updated list, please let me know



#67 Barry Lake

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Posted 09 October 2000 - 06:07

I looked this up for another thread, but thought it had a place here, to appease the conscience of anyone who has qualms about recording the date of driver deaths.

My Twenty Years of Racing:
"To race is to live. But those who died while racing knew, perhaps, how to live more than all the others. I humbly dedicate these Memoirs to those who died so that others might live."
Juan Manuel Fangio.

#68 Barry Lake

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Posted 09 October 2000 - 06:19

Indy500
Yes I would love to have an updated list.

#69 Barry Lake

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Posted 09 October 2000 - 06:32

Indy500
Try this for an exercise. Write down today's date and the number of drivers you have on your list. Then look at it in a couple of years time. You will see it was not huge, but tiny.
I have been through this before with lists and databases. If you had any idea how large they would become, you would never start them in the first place.
On the bright side, look at all the assistance and encouragement you are getting here. Much better than the old days of writing it on paper without even knowing if anyone else in the world was interested.

#70 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 13:56

A few more... first, the ones I've mentioned before:
Carey Thompson (manager of Larry Perkins), Sept 1980, aged 34.
Colin Trengove, Lola T330/2, Adelaide International Raceway, private practice, 28th April, 1981.
Now some odd ones, maybe shouldn't be here:
Bert Needham Sr, prepared Studebakers... tuning an Avanti and a fan blade broke and sliced into his head.
Evan Thomas... heart attack after practice, November 6, 82.
Peter Gregg (Porsche driver) suicided Dec 16, 1980 after a year without any wins.
Mike Hailwood, road accident (his daughter too, isn't that right?), March 81
Peter Antill, great motoring and road transport pioneer, June 15, 1981.
Garrie Cooper, Elfin designer, builder and driver, heart attack, April 24, 1982.
Merv Waggott (engineer and engine designer and builder), crashed when bird struck his Busby Mini Mustang plane, July 3, 1982.
Gavin Youl, cancer, October 1982 (aged 46)
Bruce Hindhaugh, car owner & preparer & driver, suicided October 15, 1980.
George Coad, heart attack at 55, July 31, 1980.
Norm Saville, after crashing in Repco trial and losing his two young companions, Norm had a cancer develop while recuperating, died Feb 22, 1980.
Jack (Milko) Murray, rally driver, died Feb 10, 1981.
And the one that does belong:
Bob Gardiner (Alfa) Sandown, April 12, 1981.
Meanwhile, the Sandown marshal incident took place Feb 82.
Still haven't found the McDonough incident...


#71 Barry Lake

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 14:24

You've spent a few hours going through old Racing Car News magazines, haven't you Ray? This is well worthwhile, I think. I don't believe these people should be forgotten.
Often, too, people ask, "Whatever happened to...?", little realising he was killed or seriously injured.

Which brings up another related issue. It would be good to also make a list of drivers who, through serious injury, have had to retire from the sport, or who have had their careers seriously interrupted.
For one thing, it might save people many hours searching for race results of particular drivers that they're never going to find.

Here is one I just came across in the book Castle Combe Circuit The First 50 Years by Lawrence and Stowe.

1992.1x.?? Mon Castle Combe Ian McArdell, racing driver was killed. Final round Castle Combe FF Series. McArdell was leading the Formula Ford Series and this was the final round. He had only to finish second but collided with his rival while contesting the lead.
There is no date for the meeting other than "late that year" (don't you love these accurate historians?) nor whether it was a Saturday or Sunday meeting, but it does say he died in hospital on the Monday afternoon.

I notice some date discrepancies in Rainer's list, with others I have seen. I can't correct them because I don't know which date is right. But it looks like the common problem of some people recording the date it was reported in the newspapers, rather than going back and working out the actual date.
Also, when people die later from injuries, you tend to get a variety of dates.


A count of Rainer's list shows 503 drivers listed. I believe it will grow to many times this number. Remember, we are talking about 116 years of competition in countries all over the world and if such things as midget speedcars and sprint cars are included (which Rainer already has done, and I have no complaints about that), the list will grow enormously.

When Johnny Rutherford raced at Bathurst I asked him about the old days of sprint cars with no roll cages and packed fields running at high speed on dirt. He said it was "like playing Russian roulette with one out and five in".


#72 Barry Lake

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 14:56

Rainer
I just noticed you have Tony Alcock, who died in the aircraft crash with Graham Hill, as "GBR".
Tony was an Australian.
Barry

#73 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 15:16

Yeah, Barry, but he was from Adelaide, wasn't he?
Didn't spend all that long looking at the RCNs, I was going through them anyway for a story I was doing, and the obits are always on roughly the same page. There's several years left to be covered... and I didnt't count Mumbles... you know, Frank Gardner's favourite dinner joke subject.


#74 Barry Lake

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 15:48

Ray
Mumbles? Rings a bell, but I can't remember who you're talking about.
I didn't get the bits about Lotus 6s and P-Type MG engines either.
Perhaps you should explain.
By the way, you win tonight. It's 3.00 am and I am going to bed (unless I remember soemthing else that has to be done.
I started work 1.30 pm Monday, worked through the afternoon, evening, night, next day... Finally sent some stories off, fell into bed at 6.00 pm tonight after 28.5 hours straight.
Then the phone rang at 9.15 pm. Mal Rose, wanting to discuss his plans for his assault on Bathurst this year.
While talking to him I saw several unfinished jobs around me, thought I would log on to Atlas F1 (which I now work between my other work very well, I have to say).
Next thing I know it's 3.00 am again and I am being totally confused by you shifting threads to the top of the list while I am going down the list!

By the way. Did you know Frank Gardner is having a big 70th birthday bash next week? I didn't get an invitation but John Stoneham, motor sport cartoonist "Stonie", did, he was just telling me today (or was it yesterday; I can't tell).

So you win Ray. I'm heading back to bed.

#75 Darren Galpin

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 15:48

The driver Ian McArdell who died at Castle Combe crashed on a Saturday. Castle Combe hadn't been granted the planning permission to hold two-day meetings at that point, and all meetings were held on Saturday's. As it was the final meeting of the year, the month must have been October, as all final race meetings at Combe are held on October (they had their last meeting this year last Saturday).

#76 Barry Lake

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 15:50

Thanks Darren. That narrows it down to about four possible dates - which is a lot better than none.

#77 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 16:03

'Mumbles' was Keith, who worked at John Malcolm's and hung around people like Andy Hanwright and Max Stewart and KB, was probably co-opted into Mildren team or Stewart's when the Wigram tale about the wash-up petrol in the latrine came up... died at 34 of a cerebral haemorrage.
Is that spelled correctly? I don't want to write that often..

#78 Indy500

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 19:31

Ian McArdell crashed on the 9/10/1992 and died the next day in a hospital.

I've found this on a website that hosts an Ian McArdell trophy.



#79 jarama

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Posted 10 October 2000 - 22:23

Hi Ray,

yes, in the accident that claimed the life of Mike "the bike" Hailwood, 3-21-81, died too his daughter, named Michelle.

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#80 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 October 2000 - 00:38

I thought so... about seven or eight, as I recall.

#81 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 October 2000 - 14:04

Barry.. do you know if Sid Gamble died at Westmead in 1962/63? I saw him crash, nothing was ever mentioned of him again that I knew about.

#82 Barry Lake

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Posted 11 October 2000 - 16:01

I have a record that states Mike Hailwood crashed on the 21st but died two days later, the 23rd March.

#83 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 October 2000 - 16:09

Nothing on Sid Gamble? I'm the one taking the early night tonight...

#84 Barry Lake

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Posted 11 October 2000 - 16:21

The name is familiar. Was this in a speedcar?
I don't have him on my list, but Bill Lawler, the speedway historian has them all documented, I think.
I will see what he is prepared to tell me. But I don't want to push my luck; he is helping me with Jack Brabham's results.

#85 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 October 2000 - 21:32

Yes, Repco Holden speedcar. Went straight into the fence at the top end of the speedway. Helmet broke in half.

#86 Barry Lake

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Posted 12 October 2000 - 15:53

Rainer
On your driver list you have Herbert MacKay-Fraser as being killed at age 20. I believe this should be age 30 (born 1927, died 1957).

#87 rainern

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Posted 14 October 2000 - 12:02

Thanks Barry.....it will be corrected.

#88 Barry Lake

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Posted 16 October 2000 - 12:32

I haven't seen this in print, but it was on the TV news in Sydney on Sunday evening, with video of the pick-up truck slamming into the outer wall.
This is as much as I picked up (it is possible I didn't quite catch the name correctly):

Saturday 14 October 2000, Texas, USA (looked like a banked oval). Tony Roper, racing driver was killed, aged 35. Pick-up truck race.

The news item said it was "the third death... this year". I didn't catch if that was, "at this track", or "in this category", or whatever.

#89 Indy500

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Posted 16 October 2000 - 17:49

It was the 3rd Nascar driver who died this year.
First there was Adam Petty then Kenny Irwin and now Tony Roper.

There was another fatalitie this weekend in the IHRA dragracers.



#90 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 October 2000 - 10:02

The great man, Doug Whiteford, died on January 15, 1979. Almost twenty years after thumping someone at Bathurst and in the process losing all he had (his precious Maserati 300S included)
Three times winner of the Australian GP, a competitor of the highest rank from 1940 to 1960, and then a balls-out racer in whatever anyone would put under him… usually Datsuns.
I first saw him appear over the Northern Crossing, flat out after exiting the esses at Warwick Farm. He hit the crossing too fast, was seemingly out of control, but gathered it all up and pressed on… in the Datsun 2000. That was about 1966, and he’d never been round the Farm before.
Peter Manton didn’t race that long, one of his first outings being Lobethal in 1948. He died on January 6, 1978.
Len Lukey, a Gold Star champion and industrialist, raced just inside the rear-engined era in Australia, in fact battled against the last car (the 250F of Stan Jones) to take a front engine over the line in the AGP. He died of cancer on October 28, 1978, leaving his benefactors in a real quandary… for he had wanted to sell the Phillip Island property before he died.
Gunnar Nilsson had died, much younger, on October 20 the same year.

#91 Barry Lake

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Posted 20 October 2000 - 14:21

Ray
Can you tell us more about Whiteford "losing everything"? You sound as though you know the story. What business interests did he have, who did he thump, when, why, what did he do for a living after he lost it all?

By the way, I spoke to midget speedcar historian Bill Lawler about Sid Gamble's crash at Westmead. He said Sid was seriously injured but recovered and sometimes turns up these days at historic speedcar functions.

#92 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 October 2000 - 20:54

Well, that's something, isn't it...
Apparently some joe in the street spoke to Whiteford and he thumped him. The only reference I have ever seen to it was - I think - fairly obscure... in Jim Gullan's limited edition book (see Cummo, the only one I know with a copy). Gullan also referred to fighting back in the forties in which Whiteford got involved, and how his temper was terrible.
Which belied his cool on the circuit?
He was in a motor repair business with Gullan back then, but I know nothing about his later life. The people who ran the Team Datsun racing would possibly know... remember him in those little 1000s at Bathurst?
I might be with Patto this week, I can ask him. John Medley, I think, is another who knows the story, and Roy Williams in Geelong.

#93 Barry Lake

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Posted 21 October 2000 - 15:05

Ray
By "Patto" I take it you mean Bill Patterson?
If so, would you like to ask him what race meetings he ran at in England in 1951 with the Cooper-JAP?
How many meetings, where, anything else he has to offer.

#94 Barry Lake

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Posted 21 October 2000 - 15:08

Rainer

I just came across another incorrect entry in your list of driver fatalities that I am sure you would like to put right.

You have 28 June 1946 Rene Mazaud.

This should read 28 July 1946 Robert Mazaud. Nantes is correct and Maserati 4CL.

#95 rainern

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Posted 21 October 2000 - 18:00

Thanks Barry.
I will correct ASAP and will put out an edited list after the weekend.



#96 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 22 October 2000 - 04:30

Rainer
I'm digging out details of New Zealand drivers who have paid the ulimate price which I will post soon.
Before you update your list there is a correction to be made in the Bill Caldwell listing.
He was killed at Teretonga, which is in New Zealand not Australia, on the 29th of January 1966.
I always thought of him as a New Zealander but I have recently come across a reference to him being a Sheffield-born Scot.

#97 Don Capps

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Posted 22 October 2000 - 04:31

Just back from several days at Watkins Glen in the Research Library. Here are a few names I stumbled across while looking for other "stuff," which is why I never seem to make much progress...

From the Edwin C. Waterhouse Motorsport Collection at Watkins Glen

Der Kraftfahrsport im Neuen Deutschaland
Herausgegben von der Oberfte Nationale Sportbehõrde fûr Die Deutsche Kraftfahrt
Adolf Meurer
Verkehrsverlag Deutschand g.m.b.h., Berlin 1935

“In Memoriam 1934” pages 156 – 158, with list on page 157
Helmut Barth
Fritz Baumann
Erwin Braband
Horst Brandstetter
Friedrich Brunswig
Walter Frenzel
Edith Frisch (also on page 180; photo in cockpit of car)
Arthur Gottschall
Karl Hess
Erich Hirth
Erwin Klaile
Klasse (? – only last name given)
Wilhelm Kobbe
Hans Mosick
Wilhelm Murken
Willy Prõtzig
Bertram Rûbsamen
Liselotte Sack
Otto Schanz
Bruno Schmidt
Werner Schmõker
Bernhard Schneid
Willy Werlich
Willy Weskott
Hans Witzel
Hans Zeune
Leopold Démeuter
Gunnar Kalén
Noir (? – only last name given)
Walter Nordem

Speedway News
Art Wright, Editor
Post Office Box 513
Altoona, PA

1932, January: Volume 1, Number 1

“Humble Tribute” on pages six and seven:
* Jimmy Gleason, 17 Feb. 1898 to 12 Sep. 1931; qualifying for Syracuse race
* Herman Schurch, 7 Apr. 1903 to 7 Nov. 1931; in practice on Legion-Ascot Speedway, LA
* Francis Quinn, 22 Mar. 1903 to 13 Dec. 1931; accident on Golden Gate Highway, 5 miles north of Fresno, CA
* Joe Caccia, 19 Jan. 1899 to 26 May 1931; in practice at Indianapolis
* Bernie Katz, 31 Oct. 1902 to 11 May 1931; from injuries suffered on 10 May at Woodbridge (NJ) Speedway

Plus this from a friend:
George Koehne, Lt Col USAF (ret), died in December 1964 from burns. He crashed at Riverside turn 9 on 10 October 1964 while driving his second Genie.

(Note that there were two females who died in 1934 of the 30 listed...all these in Germany!)

#98 Barry Lake

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Posted 22 October 2000 - 06:29

I have a more complete date for Bevan Gibson, Elfin 400, killed at Bathurst. 7th April 1969.

#99 Barry Boor

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Posted 22 October 2000 - 09:18

I think I've read through all 3 pages of this string, but apologies if I've missed these three.
I actually saw a guy named David Dunnage (maybe Dunning) crash fatally at Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch driving a Cooper in a race around 1960.
And nobody seems to have listed that awful day at Rouen in 1970 when 2 young French drivers were killed in separate accident in a race won by another up-and-comer named James Hunt. The drivers, as I recall were Jean-Luc Salomon and Denis Dayan.

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#100 Barry Boor

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Posted 22 October 2000 - 09:27

I've just thought of another one. After Francois Migault left the Connew team, he drove a March owned by a friend of his named Daniel (?) Rouveyren (?) - spelling may be inaccurate. I am pretty certain that Rouveyren was killed in that car at a hill climb in France some time during 1973.
Can anyone filled in the details