Jump to content


Photo

Ralf Schumacher leaves Toyota


  • Please log in to reply
117 replies to this topic

#51 WACKO

WACKO
  • Member

  • 2,293 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:01

Originally posted by BorderReiver
He's got the McLaren seat ;) .


Yeah probably quite litterally only a seat. In some kind of F1 vintage auction ;)

Advertisement

#52 Frans

Frans
  • Member

  • 7,701 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:02

that's a great time to throw a PARTYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schumacher-less F1 ...... BRING it ON! :up: :up:

#53 WACKO

WACKO
  • Member

  • 2,293 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:07

Originally posted by pacificquay


Ridiculous as it may seem, I think there is actually a possibility of that.


Err.. you set me thinking. There is one slight possibility that I overlooked and it's called Prodrive
It would get him a damn McLaren indeed. :

#54 F1 Tor.

F1 Tor.
  • Member

  • 2,832 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:09

Originally posted by Frans
that's a great time to throw a PARTYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Schumacher-less F1 ...... BRING it ON! :up: :up:


Frans-less Bulletin Board....BRIN.....sorry, that's my inside voice talking. Carry on.;)

#55 Umpire

Umpire
  • Member

  • 787 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:21

I would not like to see him gone from F1...I think that given the proper circumstances he can still shine. I find it hard to believe his skill level would have deteriorated so badly since 2003.

#56 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 5,717 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:21

F1 Tor. stop day dreaming. we're not (THAT) lucky
if ralf doesn't deserve to be in F1, neither does trulli. he has beaten him in every year except this one (trailing 7-2). I think at podiums ralf looks even better.
were toyota expecting more? sure...put a great driver in that car and he could have scored maybe 5 points more over a season.
toyota's problem are not the drivers. it's the white big thing with panasonic written on it.
ralf had a too big salary? why do you say that? he had what he negociated. there is no such thing as a too big paycheck. it's not like he stole the money or something.

#57 gaheir

gaheir
  • Member

  • 56 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:52

the financial aspect is far less important than the chance of being involved in the development of a car and being successful afterwards.

He is basically saying I dont need money, give me a seat!

#58 Gilles4Ever

Gilles4Ever
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 19,943 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:53

Originally posted by HoldenRT
I don't understand your perspective talking about wins. The only people that expect all of the drivers to win are ones that don't understand the sport, or don't follow it etc.


I said "if he had a car as competitive as the Williams he drove, he would have won races." wtf have other drivers and their abilities got to do with it? Do you deny that had that Toyota been as competitive as the Williams he won in that he wouldn't have won races in it?

In a season there is usually only 4 drivers that have machinery capable of winning. The rest are left to battle it out between themselves, and try and impress with their performances. Whether that be someone like Sato or Sutil stealing 8th place and a point or someone like Nico getting lots of 7th places.

The point is impressing with good performances, not winning. And Ralf failed. You can be in a Spyker or STR and still impress like Vettel did. Ralf failed. And from 2005 to now, he's got progressively worse and worse. The number of times he missed Q2 in the last 2 seasons, the amount of silly incidents, he did have a couple good drives but they were so rare. Probably only 2-3 in the last 2 years. Even in 05 in those first few races where Trulli got 2nd places, Ralf was nowhere in comparison. I don't care about his salary his performances were flat out dissappointing, alot worse then Fisi.


In a car that was capable of winning, Ralf won! The way you seem to categorise drivers who have "failed" I would say that it leaves the door open to say half the drivers in the field are failures.

Ralf has truly sucked this year, especially in qualifying, his races havent been all that bad really, considering where he has started compared to trulli and where he has finished compared to Trulli.

My post was in response to:

Originally posted by Bruce
I loved his quote "I was hoping for a more competitive car"


I think that Toyota were hoping for a more competitive driver...


I think Ralf and Trulli were competitive drivers, probably still are and its not their skills that have not allowed Toyota to win. To say Toyota were hoping for a more competitive driver is IMO, crap. They got the two most competitive drivers they could, at the time Ralf was fairly hot property. Toyota havent won, not because of uncompetitive drivers, but because of uncompetitive cars.

#59 Gilles4Ever

Gilles4Ever
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 19,943 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 01 October 2007 - 17:59

Originally posted by Bruce


Given the amount of money that Toyota were paying him, I think that they could have expected a competitive driver - instead, they got someone who had great difficulty beating his vastly less well-paid team-mate.

If Ralfie's career is over, he has no one to blame but himself. He signed with them, knowing what the team was, and he took their money without complaint.


He was a competitive driver, he was winning races when the car was capable, its not like Toyota gave him a race winning car and that he didn't win in it!

As to "knowing what the team was", I dont think there were many in the paddock that didn't think Toyota would produce race winning or championship winning cars. He went there, it was his choice, C'est la Vie.

Advertisement

#60 inca_roads

inca_roads
  • Member

  • 1,424 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 01 October 2007 - 18:04

Ralf was out-performed by Trulli early on in 2005, but actually just about evened it up by the end of the season. He has been poor this year, however you have to take in to account that qualifying has been possibly as important as it's ever been and he has definitely got one of the very best qualifiers as his team-mate.

Still, i don't think he's done enough this season at all, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does infact get a decent drive next season.

#61 IMHO

IMHO
  • Member

  • 671 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 01 October 2007 - 18:32

I think most people in F1 with the power to make such decisions would take Ralf over PdlR or Wurz in a heartbeat. He still has a chance to get a decent seat for next year. He is a proven race winner. Whether he still has the fire and desire in him is another question all together.

#62 Dragonfly

Dragonfly
  • Member

  • 4,496 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 01 October 2007 - 18:59

Originally posted by brunopascal
Good for Toyota that Ralf is leaving, he's been underperforming for long now.


Had it been Alonso in Toyota instead in 2005, he could probably have won 1 or 2 races. The car was pretty competitive in some races that year.


Ha,ha. Even his brother in a better car managed to "win" only the infamous USGP. :lol:

#63 Wouter

Wouter
  • Member

  • 5,778 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 01 October 2007 - 19:06

Originally posted by IMHO
I think most people in F1 with the power to make such decisions would take Ralf over PdlR or Wurz in a heartbeat. He still has a chance to get a decent seat for next year. He is a proven race winner. Whether he still has the fire and desire in him is another question all together.

Agreed on that. Like those 2, Ralf is very experienced and there is little doubt he is a good bit faster, especially compared to the way Wurz is struggling this year.

If Prodriver will be in F1 next year (see the dedicated thread - there appear to be problems wrt the Concorde agreement), his chances for a seat get bigger because there are 2 more seats (good seats!) to fill.

#64 Mohican

Mohican
  • Member

  • 739 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 01 October 2007 - 19:41

You are forgetting that of all the German drivers his year, Ralf has been - by some margin - the least impressive given the circumstances.

Heidfeld, Sutil and Vettel have all been far better - Ralf is finished from a marketing standpoint (even in Germany) and that is what will kill off is F1 career.

#65 Juan Kerr

Juan Kerr
  • Member

  • 2,555 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 01 October 2007 - 19:46

Ralf has a great positive attitude he is always smiling at PR events and always gives positive interviews without bitching about anyone, he is also used to coping with major egos like Montoya and his brother, he generally gets on well with his teammates. The Mercedes link could be great I think Ralf is perfect for the corporate image of McLaren and the setup engineering would bring back his ability to shine above the rest when all is well.
Ralf to McLaren I say.

#66 HoldenRT

HoldenRT
  • Member

  • 5,176 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 01 October 2007 - 20:28

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
I said "if he had a car as competitive as the Williams he drove, he would have won races." wtf have other drivers and their abilities got to do with it? Do you deny that had that Toyota been as competitive as the Williams he won in that he wouldn't have won races in it?

And I said I don't understand this perspective. That winning is the be all and end all. Do you think Sutil or Nico are being payed to win?

A drivers job isn't to win, it's to maximise the potential of the car and achieve the best result possible.

Driving a Toyota does excuse you from not winning but it doesn't excuse you from putting in good solid performances on a regular basis.

In a car that was capable of winning, Ralf won! The way you seem to categorise drivers who have "failed" I would say that it leaves the door open to say half the drivers in the field are failures.

Ralf has truly sucked this year, especially in qualifying, his races havent been all that bad really, considering where he has started compared to trulli and where he has finished compared to Trulli.

Yes, but in a car that is midfield at best Ralf has sucked and there is no excuse for that. It doesn't matter what Ralf would be doing if he was in a McLaren because he is not. He is in a Toyota, and has to acheive the best results possible for them. Even if that's 8ths and 9ths instead of 1st to 4ths. You might be right about some of his races where he is handicapped by a bad grid position, but what about the rookie errors, like hitting Sakon last week or causing the incident at Indy this year in turn 1?

Do you remember Hockenheim last season? Bridgestone had a tremendous advantage, Webber was more competitive then usual (on for a 4th or 5th until car failure), Ferraris were cruising with huge lead.. and the Toyotas pace was as strong as Webbers. Trulli had an engine penalty so he is excused, but Ralf? No penalty.. he crashed into someone at the hairpin similar to he did last race attempting to overtake in quali... and then in the race wacked DC (DC got airbourne if you remember)at the same hairpin.. on lap 1.. THEN got a stop go penalty for speeding in the pitlane.. if you remember Renaults were off the pace that race with blistering and lack of pace from mass damper removal.. and Trulli closed right up onto Fisi and Alonso at the end and finished 6th or 7th despite the penalty. Ralf was 30-40 secs behind despite having no engine penalty while Trulli still managed a points finish. Without it Trulli would of been in Webbers position. It's just one race but it's a good example of not maximsing the potential of the car I was talking about cause that weekend Toyota were strong.

I think Ralf and Trulli were competitive drivers, probably still are and its not their skills that have not allowed Toyota to win. To say Toyota were hoping for a more competitive driver is IMO, crap. They got the two most competitive drivers they could, at the time Ralf was fairly hot property. Toyota havent won, not because of uncompetitive drivers, but because of uncompetitive cars.

Trulli STILL IS a competitive driver. Ralf was and still is occasionally.. sometimes he does very good drives, but not nearly as often and it's gotten worse and worse as more time has gone on. This is exactly what I'm talking about, you are talking about Toyota not having won.. but if you are measuring the drivers it's not about winning, it's about putting in solid drives. Unless you are in the McLaren or Ferrari. The results sheet might say that one driver scored more points (like earlier in the season when Wurz had more then Nico) but we as fans can still look at it and say that Nico has easily outdriven him. When people say Ralf wasn't competitive it's not because he hasn't won with Toyota. It's because he's put in alot of subpar performances. He didn't maximise the potential of the car regularly. That's his job as a driver.

Yes I agree, it's Toyota's fault that they haven't won races. But it's not Toyota's fault that Ralf hasn't been as good a driver as he could of been. Trulli hasn't been perfect either, but IMO has been pretty good considering. The autosport top 50 list last year had Trulli 6th or something like that and I thought it was pretty fair. He was on for some podiums but the car died like France and Monaco.

What others praise as his good positive PR attitude I dislike, because he can have a dissappointing performance, and then still say he is top 3 driver or (as recently as a week ago) say that he is heading to a top team. :confused: If it turns out to be true fair enough, but it's easier to respect someone like Wurz, who puts his hand up and says he needs to improve. Rather then acting like he is driving at his peak.

#67 F575 GTC

F575 GTC
  • Member

  • 920 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 01 October 2007 - 20:40

If he's not sticking with F1 i doubt he'd got to the DTM; with all the utter nonsense going on between Audi and Mercedes in that, i couldn't see him going for that.

I reckon one possiblity is that Audi might bring an R10 to race in the Le Mans Series. With Peugeot in it and Pescarolo possibly going to buy a customer 908; Audi might be enticed to come and beat them in Europe - especially seeing as they've got the grip on the P1 class in the ALMS. Ralf's driven sportscar's before - and at Le Mans - so he wouldn't be totally alien to the concept (also that JV has done LM this year might help). Either that or a works drive with Audi in the ALMS + a drive in the R10 at La Sarthe. I'm not sure if i remember it right but i seem to recall Frank Biela said he was going to cut down his racing (or retire) in the next few years (08 onwards) so there might be a seat going for Ralf.
The only other sportscar idea would be if Porsche got a factory RS going in the LMS, i doubt Penske would take him on anyway.

#68 wrighty

wrighty
  • Member

  • 3,592 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 01 October 2007 - 20:52

Originally posted by F575 GTC
If he's not sticking with F1 i doubt he'd got to the DTM; with all the utter nonsense going on between Audi and Mercedes in that, i couldn't see him going for that.


Indeed, anyone would take a week or two to see how that particular fracas shakes down methinks :

I've been critical of Ralf this year on here and this was on the cards, but his pre-emptive strike (of announcing before Toyota do) says to me that he wants to stay in F1 and he's 'on the market'. Fair play....I wondered about his motivation but if he wants to take a smaller slice to stay in F1 then I'll not criticise :blush: STR perhaps?

#69 holiday

holiday
  • Member

  • 3,470 posts
  • Joined: October 01

Posted 01 October 2007 - 20:54

Originally posted by Bruce
I should get out my old magazines and find the article where that twit Peter Windsor suggested that between them the Schumacher brothers would win 12 or 13 WDC....


Still by far the most successful brothers in formula 1, and not totally so because of Michael's contribution. Just compare them with, say, the Stewart brothers.

#70 wrighty

wrighty
  • Member

  • 3,592 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 01 October 2007 - 21:09

Originally posted by holiday


Still by far the most successful brothers in formula 1


if it mattered :kiss:

#71 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,420 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 October 2007 - 21:26

Ralf is by no means a bad driver, but if Formula One is going to gain Glock and Bourdais next season, he's probably the weakest of all the nothing-left-to-prove guys out there (i.e. him, Trulli, Barrichello, Fisi, Coulthard). Strange guy, and other than his salary and his surname, I don't see what can justify the sheer level of antipathy he receives.

I like the idea of him in sportscars, although he strikes me as more likely than anyone else in the current field to quit racing full stop once his F1 career is over.

#72 inca_roads

inca_roads
  • Member

  • 1,424 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 01 October 2007 - 21:53

Didn't they recently decide to keep the same members of the GPDA board (of which Ralf is one)? That might suggest he's pretty confident of finding a seat somewhere.

#73 riffola

riffola
  • Member

  • 940 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 01 October 2007 - 22:15

Dude's a decent driver, I thought he's earned his stay in F1 over the years. Salary is debatable but he's definitely worthy of being in F1.

#74 Mauseri

Mauseri
  • Member

  • 7,490 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 01 October 2007 - 22:42

Originally posted by gaheir
the financial aspect is far less important than the chance of being involved in the development of a car and being successful afterwards.

He is basically saying I dont need money, give me a seat!

With the money earned at Toyota he could buy himself a seat in Spyker then :up:

#75 Pilla

Pilla
  • Member

  • 2,337 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 01 October 2007 - 22:54

I like Ralf, and I think he would be a good respite from the primadona drivers that Mclaren have had over the past few years. I don't know if he deserves another shot at the top (although you can hardly say he blew it) but he will be a good number 1B for Mclaren, not capable to pull together a whole season so he wont challenge Hamilton by the end but still not a slow driver and one that can fight for wins and score points.

#76 MPea3

MPea3
  • Member

  • 2,143 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 01 October 2007 - 23:17

Before you guys dream up scenarios where Ralf ends up in all sorts of teams, you may want to consider that the determining factor will be how much Ralf thinks he's worth. Does anybody realistically think Williams will pay him the sort of numbers he's gotten from Toyota? Don't give me the "he'll drive for nothing in a competitive car" line, he showed that to not be the case when he went to Toyota in the first place. His inconsistency has shown that he falls into the same category as many other good but not great F1 drivers... fast on occasions, but unable to put together a complete season.

I suppose he may land somewhere because of his name and speed, and if so, good for him. A far as his development abilities, they didn't show at Toyota, regardless fo whose fault that is. Besides, I think that the pendulum is swinging increasingly toward engineers, telemetry, and testing programs having more to do with car development than drivers.

#77 MarkWRX

MarkWRX
  • Member

  • 816 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 01 October 2007 - 23:36

Originally posted by pkenny
I noticed that yesterday he parked his car but was then sent back out, this might have been the camel that broke the straw's back.


Yeah, I recall his older brother bending his suspension at Monaco, pitting and hoping out of the car, only to have Ross Brawn get in his face. A few moments later, a very red-faced Michael Schumacher climbed back in and finished the race, several laps down.

#78 F1 Tor.

F1 Tor.
  • Member

  • 2,832 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 02 October 2007 - 00:45

After racing for all these years, it would surprise me if he became a tester. My guess is that Ralfie knows his huge paydays are done and will probably negotiate(himself?) some kind of performance based contract-$$ per point, win, getting out of Q1 ;)

#79 stevewf1

stevewf1
  • Member

  • 3,254 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 02 October 2007 - 01:13

I like this quote:

"For me, the financial aspect is far less important than the chance of being involved in the development of a car and being successful afterwards."

Easy for him to say after getting what, $60 million or so from Toyota over the last 3 years?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Advertisement

#80 djellison

djellison
  • Member

  • 1,725 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 02 October 2007 - 07:22

Originally posted by Juan Kerr
Ralf has a great positive attitude he is always smiling at PR events and always gives positive interviews without bitching about anyone,


You must be talking about someone else. That's the absolute opposite of Ralf. Anyone who saw him at Goodwood a few years ago would know that.

Doug

#81 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,438 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 02 October 2007 - 10:33

Originally posted by stevewf1
I like this quote:

"For me, the financial aspect is far less important than the chance of being involved in the development of a car and being successful afterwards."

Easy for him to say after getting what, $60 million or so from Toyota over the last 3 years?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Well, in his place I'd have the same approach now. Can you blame him for that?

#82 Frans

Frans
  • Member

  • 7,701 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 02 October 2007 - 13:41

I hear rumours that Jos Verstappen's manager is in contact with Toyota.

Especially with the new regulations next year, this could be they're BEST move to move forwards!!!!!!!



:clap: :clap: :clap:

#83 canon1753

canon1753
  • Member

  • 618 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 02 October 2007 - 17:08

Originally posted by stevewf1
I like this quote:

"For me, the financial aspect is far less important than the chance of being involved in the development of a car and being successful afterwards."

Easy for him to say after getting what, $60 million or so from Toyota over the last 3 years?

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Financial Security is a good thing. Maybe he will now try NASCAR, like JV....

I think the accident he had at Indy in 2004 really set Ralf back. He can still drive on occasion, but we certainly can say that Willi got Ralf an over the top deal at Toyota and we all know that. The results in the past 3 years were not there, for whatever reason.

#84 F1 Tor.

F1 Tor.
  • Member

  • 2,832 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 02 October 2007 - 17:14

Originally posted by djellison


You must be talking about someone else. That's the absolute opposite of Ralf. Anyone who saw him at Goodwood a few years ago would know that.

Doug


I think he was talking about Cora.;)

#85 Allexxis

Allexxis
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 02 October 2007 - 17:31

99% of the time Ralf was simply a moving chicane and nothing special to even write home about.

I have been astounded that he actually lasted this long in F1, and if it was not for his brothers name you can bet your ass he would have been history along time ago.

But, for that 1% Ralf was truly marvelous. We saw that in some of his wins, the guy was simply not consistent.

He should hit the DTM circuit and call it a career. But when it comes to Ralf the poorer you do the better job you get ...so watch him being at McLaren next year :down:

#86 Jerome

Jerome
  • Member

  • 2,088 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 02 October 2007 - 17:37

I think that Ralf was a very good driver... but I always had the feeling his motivation was not innerly driver, but exterior. It happens with a lot of musicians and sportsmen. A couple of years ago, Wayne Ferreira, one of the best tennisplayers South Africa ever had, if not the best, retired and said: 'I never loved playing. I just was that good at it.'

That is the same feeling I've always had about Ralf Schumacher.

#87 riffola

riffola
  • Member

  • 940 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 02 October 2007 - 19:50

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
I think that Ralf was a very good driver... but I always had the feeling his motivation was not innerly driver, but exterior. It happens with a lot of musicians and sportsmen. A couple of years ago, Wayne Ferreira, one of the best tennisplayers South Africa ever had, if not the best, retired and said: 'I never loved playing. I just was that good at it.'

That is the same feeling I've always had about Ralf Schumacher.

Very true! Michael drove because he absolutely loves and lives for driving. Ralf drove because when they were kids everyone said he had more talent than Michael, so he drove because it was a way to make a living, not because he lives to drive, he drives to live. I feel.

#88 F1Lurker

F1Lurker
  • Member

  • 457 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 02 October 2007 - 19:54

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
I think that Ralf was a very good driver... but I always had the feeling his motivation was not innerly driver, but exterior. It happens with a lot of musicians and sportsmen. A couple of years ago, Wayne Ferreira, one of the best tennisplayers South Africa ever had, if not the best, retired and said: 'I never loved playing. I just was that good at it.'

That is the same feeling I've always had about Ralf Schumacher.


:up: :up:

#89 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,478 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 02 October 2007 - 20:37

I hope he stays in F1 next year, racing. But I have a feeling he won't.... : I don't think he's a candidate for Williams and I strongly doubt he'd join Spyker or whatever they'll be called next year.
He's got good connections at KingFisher though, so perhaps Super Aguri?? But it's hard to imagine either Sato or Davidson leaving that team.

A huge shame if he's done with F1, 'cause he's still a very, very good driver. His season looks worse than it has been, when he's missed that tenth that could've taken him to Q2, and once there, perhaps a good few slots higher up the grid.

Earlier there was some talk about Klien joining Toyota, but atleast in the news, that seems to have dried out a long time ago.
I'm still hoping for him though.

#90 Jerome

Jerome
  • Member

  • 2,088 posts
  • Joined: September 05

Posted 02 October 2007 - 20:49

Originally posted by race addicted


Earlier there was some talk about Klien joining Toyota, but atleast in the news, that seems to have dried out a long time ago.
I'm still hoping for him though.


Glock would be a stronger candidate, don't you think? Not more deserved perhaps, but stronger after his GP2 title.

#91 pUs

pUs
  • Member

  • 2,543 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:21

Originally posted by race addicted
I hope he stays in F1 next year, racing. But I have a feeling he won't.... : I don't think he's a candidate for Williams and I strongly doubt he'd join Spyker or whatever they'll be called next year.


I think he might end up at Williams.

#92 pUs

pUs
  • Member

  • 2,543 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 03 October 2007 - 10:24

Originally posted by Allexxis
99% of the time Ralf was simply a moving chicane and nothing special to even write home about.


99% ? Ok, I agree he's inconsistent. But that figure is just laughable. I'd say he is on it half of the time or something like that. Which, of course, is nowhere near enoguh..

#93 race addicted

race addicted
  • Member

  • 19,478 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 03 October 2007 - 14:02

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen


Glock would be a stronger candidate, don't you think? Not more deserved perhaps, but stronger after his GP2 title.


He's been very impressive in GP2, undoubtedly, but I'm not sure how much he's progressed from when he was driving F1 the last time, 'cause I wasn't blown away by that.

Quite possibly he's more talented than Klien, but I think Klien could develop nicely from where he was when he left Red Bull. ...and perhaps he has learnt a good deal while at Honda, even if he hasn't run much.

pUs - I can't find any good or logical arguments for "Ralf Schumacher to return to Williams". OK, his feedback is good apparently, but Wurz' is praised over and over. So would Schumacher do a better job racing for Williams? I doubt it. Wurz may not race for Williams next year either, probably just test and develop, but of the two I think they'd stick with Wurz.

#94 Orin

Orin
  • Member

  • 8,444 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 04 October 2007 - 11:09

I have to admit smiling at this story: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/62983

Ralf telling Toyota they'd produced a good car, only to be beaten by a teammate who'd been correct in telling them it was another dog. That couldn't have gone down well at HQ. :blush:

#95 HP

HP
  • Member

  • 14,196 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 04 October 2007 - 11:18

Originally posted by Frans
I hear rumours that Jos Verstappen's manager is in contact with Toyota.

Especially with the new regulations next year, this could be they're BEST move to move forwards!!!!!!!



:clap: :clap: :clap:

According to you Jos is attempting to get a mid-field car? What is there to cheer for?

#96 fnz

fnz
  • Member

  • 2,138 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 04 October 2007 - 12:04

Aperantly JT wants Fred once more as his team mate

#97 flyer72

flyer72
  • Member

  • 2,843 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 04 October 2007 - 19:59

Considering the McLaren VS Alonso drama unfolding making the current driver market utterly difficult to judge, most of you only mention the driving aspect! But what about marketing?

Ralf won races and did fairly well so far, he is no superstar and this year has been a tough experience for him. Toyota spent a lot of cash but only went backwards after firing Gascoyne so he hardly had the best equipment. I don't think next year is going to be any different for them. Considering this years car - the only reason why Toyota got points is because BMW-Sauber, McLaren, Renault and Williams had problems with reliability (and Honda making a really bad car). Their car shouldn't be in the points. Of course Trulli scored a few more points and qualified higher than RS - but as I see it you have a melt down between Schumacher and Toyota resulting in bad performances. Trulli is only leading RS with 2 points too - so he is hardly crushing RS.

So what about Ralf? Does he have a future in F1? The Schumacher name is huge in Germany, and he didn't get the same amount of attention because of a poor car - but Toyota did benefit. Their sales are higher than ever in Germany and RS did help. F1 is marketing for most companies who end up paying the bills - so who would benefit from getting RS? And who would be willing to pay him? Realistically there are three options (Prodrive I don't care for - as long as there isn't a new CA):

1. Back to Williams replacing Wurz. Rosberg is already covering the German market and I don't think Williams is too keen about getting him back. I don't think this will happen but it is a possibility.

2. Replacing Alonso at McLaren. Because of the obvious Mercedes link! Getting Mercedes and the Schumacher name together would be very interesting marketingwise.

RS can hardly expect getting a huge salary if he wants to stay in F1 - so that is why I think the best sell would be:

3. Schumacher replacing Fisichella at Renault! This would create lots of attention! Flavio would get a name which he doesn't have to pay too much for - so the Renault board would be happy.

RS can hardly expect getting a number 1 contract - but I think everything at the moment depends on where Alonso will end up.

I'm not too thrilled about RS - I just don't think he is that great of a driver - but I don't deny the marketing value of the Schumacher name.

#98 Galko877

Galko877
  • Member

  • 4,173 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 05 October 2007 - 07:02

I'm not sure if RALF Schumacher's marketing value is really that big. Toyota obviously thought so and that's why they paid him so much but I can imagine they think now it was a mistake.

Ralf is not even big in Germany. A couple of years ago I saw a poll there in which he was voted the most popular German driver (even ahead of his brother!) but in the last couple of years in every popularity poll I saw he was dead last. If anything he is subject of mocking. Germans don't like the fact he is paid so much for so little.

I think his big salary (or better to say that he is showing so little for that) really cost him popularity. I don't think he would get so much criticism if he had the salary that Trulli has, for example.

#99 Galko877

Galko877
  • Member

  • 4,173 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 05 October 2007 - 07:14

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
I think that Ralf was a very good driver... but I always had the feeling his motivation was not innerly driver, but exterior. It happens with a lot of musicians and sportsmen. A couple of years ago, Wayne Ferreira, one of the best tennisplayers South Africa ever had, if not the best, retired and said: 'I never loved playing. I just was that good at it.'

That is the same feeling I've always had about Ralf Schumacher.


Even their father said once: Michael races because its his passion, Ralf races because its his job. That pretty much sums it up. A shame because I think has the talent. According to their friends Michael genuinely thought Ralf was the more talented of them! Who knows maybe he is. But he is not the workaholic that his brother was, so he couldn't really exploit that talent.

The best drivers are never just talented, but they are also very hungry, almost obsessed. That's what is missing from Ralf.

Advertisement

#100 flyer72

flyer72
  • Member

  • 2,843 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 07 October 2007 - 11:09

Originally posted by Galko877
I'm not sure if RALF Schumacher's marketing value is really that big. Toyota obviously thought so and that's why they paid him so much but I can imagine they think now it was a mistake.

Ralf is not even big in Germany. A couple of years ago I saw a poll there in which he was voted the most popular German driver (even ahead of his brother!) but in the last couple of years in every popularity poll I saw he was dead last. If anything he is subject of mocking. Germans don't like the fact he is paid so much for so little.

I think his big salary (or better to say that he is showing so little for that) really cost him popularity. I don't think he would get so much criticism if he had the salary that Trulli has, for example.


RS marketing value is huge - but it needs to be used properly and will not come automatically. Toyota hasn't helped his marketing value with their crappy cars though... Considering Toyota's sales in Germany - I can't say that they did anything wrong in terms of signing RS. Is anyone worth $20-$25 million? I have a hard time motivating costs like that, but noone forced Toyota back in 2004 to sign...

RS finished ahead of Trulli in 2005 and 2006. This year is the first that Trulli might finish ahead of RS... When RS signed the contract with Toyota - things looked quite differently. Toyota managed 4th place in the constructors championship in 2005, 2006 was a difficult year,and 2007 is a disaster. In fact the Toyota team looks like it is imploding! So whoever is going to take over from RS is going to have a hard time... Walking away is the right thing for RS.

RS can't demand a high salary anymore - and he will be lucky if he manages to stay in F1! But I think he and his manager are quite aware of that.

If RS signs up with McLaren to replace Alonso - headlines will be huge. RS needs a successfull team like McLaren as much as McLaren needs to get a good decent driver to back up Hamilton! Fisi or RS could easily be that driver. And teaming up Mercedes with the Schumacher name should be a great move. Marketingwise that would be priceless.