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#1 h4887

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 18:10

I was watching the ALMS round from Mosport on TV recently and was struck by the fact that the circuit looks just the same as it does in GPL, i.e. 1967. Are there any other major circuits which have remained unmolested for at least forty years?

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#2 subh

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 20:46

What about Thruxton? Also, I don’t think Mugello has been changed since it opened, a few years after 1967.

#3 Gary C

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 21:24

Goodwood??

#4 Roger Clark

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 21:52

Pau.

#5 Risil

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 22:10

Indianapolis. :)

#6 lil'chris

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 22:44

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Pau.


What about the little chicane on the run back down the hill to the pits ?

#7 Rob G

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 23:07

Elkhart Lake's layout is unchanged since it opened in 1955, aside from a new chicane used only for bikes.

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 23:56

Lakeside was...

If it reopens, there's little doubt it will be unchanged. Again... except for the bike chicane.

Mallala changed about 1965, but hasn't changed since. Just improved out of sight.

Baskerville and Symmons Plains are unchanged, both opened about 1959/60.

Wanneroo Park is unchanged except for location of start/finish line and the addition of a loop for a shorter variation. It opened early '68, IIRC... 40 years in a few months.

#9 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 00:34

The Mosport of today...2007...is, in fact, slightly altered from its original layout. Circa 1997, approximately 2 metres elevation was removed from the crest of hill at the top of the back straight to help avoid blowovers. Ian Ashley would have appreciated that alteration 20 years sooner.

Otherwise...with the exception of trackside changes..., the circuit is 'as is' from its inaugural season of 1961.

#10 Disco Stu

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 01:29

They've also widened parts of the road at Mosport, the back straight in particular is quite a bit wider. Plus they've changed the character of the turns a bit without changing the turns themselves in spots. For instance, they removed an entire hillside at the inside of turn 4. It used to be a blind corner, now you can see the next turn from well in the distance.

#11 Hieronymus

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 05:35

The EAST LONDON Grand Prix Circuit in the Eastern Cape Province, South Africa.

Great circuit, great location!!

#12 Barry Boor

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 08:14

Vallelunga.

The original tiny 'kart track' (they ran F.1 cars on that!) is still there, and I don't think the extension has changed either.

#13 Catalina Park

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 08:41

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Lakeside was...

If it reopens, there's little doubt it will be unchanged. Again... except for the bike chicane.

Mallala changed about 1965, but hasn't changed since. Just improved out of sight.

Baskerville and Symmons Plains are unchanged, both opened about 1959/60.

Wanneroo Park is unchanged except for location of start/finish line and the addition of a loop for a shorter variation. It opened early '68, IIRC... 40 years in a few months.

They moved the startline and pitlane at Symmond Plains.

If you check out Google Maps photo of Mallala you can still see the extra bit that was cut off.

#14 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 10:21

Has Leguna Sec changed? I do mean that as a question as I don't know; it just doesn't strike me as a changeable circuit?

What about Donington, (does the Melbourne loop count??) Oulton Park (the Fosters loop??) and Lydden Hill in the UK?

#15 DJO

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 10:36

Mallory Park layout for cars hasn't changed since 1956 when it opened! Bikes have had various 'improvements'

#16 Catalina Park

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 10:51

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall
Has Leguna Sec changed? I do mean that as a question as I don't know; it just doesn't strike me as a changeable circuit?

What about Donington, (does the Melbourne loop count??) Oulton Park (the Fosters loop??) and Lydden Hill in the UK?

Yes, Laguna Seca has changed, they added the infield loop.

#17 alansart

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 10:59

Originally posted by DJO
Mallory Park layout for cars hasn't changed since 1956 when it opened! Bikes have had various 'improvements'


Didn't Mallory start as the oval with the hairpin section added later? For bikes they've added 3 chicanes and it's still dangerous!

Oulton Park still just about retains it's original layout. Although the chicane at Knickerbrook is not original the old bit is still there as an escape road. When was the chicane put in after the Shell Hairpin?

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:16

Originally posted by Catalina Park
They moved the startline and pitlane at Symmons Plains.

If you check out Google Maps photo of Mallala you can still see the extra bit that was cut off.


You're right... the circuit remains the circuit remains the same, but the pit lane is entirely different...

As for Mallala, in my quest to see every circuit on which the AGP had been held I arrived there and found the Ducati Motorcycle Club having a ride day. This was when it was basically inactive, and certain unused as a circuit, but Clem did rent it out to clubs etc.

Anyway, one of the guys was happy to sit me on the pillion seat of his Ducati and take me around. Then, because the AGP had been held on the original circuit with the longer stretch down the back, I walked around that part.

#19 mat1

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:31

AFAIK the Nordschleife of the Nurburgring hasn't changed since the reopening of 1971. Apart of course of the start-finish-part which is replaced by the new "Ring".

mat1

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#20 Darren Galpin

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:53

Originally posted by subh
What about Thruxton? Also, I don’t think Mugello has been changed since it opened, a few years after 1967.


First opened in 1952, the current variant opened in 1968.


Originally posted by Gregor Marshall
What about Donington


Similar, but not the same. Many of the roads were moved to avoid driving under bridges and through farmyards.....

#21 alansart

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 11:59

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Similar, but not the same. Many of the roads were moved to avoid driving under bridges and through farmyards.....


Yes, It's quite different. The long loop is still not used.

Ironically I was looking at it on Google Earth this morning as I'm heading off to the Museum tomorrow.

#22 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 12:10

Aintree, the club circuit has not changed at all and the GP track is still there in all its glory

#23 Stephen W

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 12:30

Originally posted by Steve O'Brien
Aintree, the club circuit has not changed at all and the GP track is still there in all its glory


The club circuit at Aintree is as you say unchanged. Unfortunately certain sections of the GP track have been either dug up or built on!

:wave:

#24 alansart

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 12:35

Originally posted by Steve O'Brien
Aintree, the club circuit has not changed at all and the GP track is still there in all its glory


There was talk of building a Grandstand over part of the circuit.

This is how it appears on Google Earth
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#25 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 12:43

Originally posted by alansart


There was talk of building a Grandstand over part of the circuit.

This is how it appears on Google Earth
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I thought that was definitely happening? There was a thing in the Saturday Telegraph's Motoring section earlier this year, had a nice picture of my Dad (Gerry) spinning out of the lead of a British Saloon car race in a Mk2 Capri!!

Reminds me of going to Crystal Palace with Dad in '99 for the Sevenoaks and District Sprint, after everyone had left Dad took me round the old Crystal Palace circuit which as about 85% still there, I won't mention the gate we nudged and the grandstand we narrowly missed!! :eek:

#26 alansart

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 13:18

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall


I thought that was definitely happening? There was a thing in the Saturday Telegraph's Motoring section earlier this year, had a nice picture of my Dad (Gerry) spinning out of the lead of a British Saloon car race in a Mk2 Capri!!

Reminds me of going to Crystal Palace with Dad in '99 for the Sevenoaks and District Sprint, after everyone had left Dad took me round the old Crystal Palace circuit which as about 85% still there, I won't mention the gate we nudged and the grandstand we narrowly missed!! :eek:


Unfortunately there's not much of Crystal Palce left now.

Your Dad and the Vauxhalls were just amazing around there :)

#27 alansart

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 13:34

Crystal Palace in it's current form.

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The starting straight seems to have gone and the bit around North Tower and through the trees looks like footpaths. The back straight behind the new stadium looks as though it still exists including the bridge up to the station.

The red line shows the circuit layout.

Sad really. CP was one of the few circuits you could get to on Public Transport.

#28 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 13:46

Originally posted by alansart
Crystal Palace in it's current form.

Posted Image

The starting straight seems to have gone and the bit around North Tower and through the trees looks like footpaths. The back straight behind the new stadium looks as though it still exists including the bridge up to the station.

The red line shows the circuit layout.

Sad really. CP was one of the few circuits you could get to on Public Transport.


I'm afraid I can't remember the names but the top left bit of the picture was where they did the sprint in '99 and we went from there, across the top by the pond/lake (IIRC there were/are still sleepers there) then down the back past the athletics track (the road was actually quite low there), right at the bottom and then back to the main entrace which is bottom left.

Unfortunately I was born in '77 so missed Dad winning the famous race in '71 and the last ever race in '72, luckily I have them both on film though and had Dad talking me all arounf the "lap" we did in '99!!

Such a shame it closed and you're right about the public transport, shame there aren't any others as accessible.

#29 alansart

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 14:00

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall


I'm afraid I can't remember the names but the top left bit of the picture was where they did the sprint in '99 and we went from there, across the top by the pond/lake (IIRC there were/are still sleepers there) then down the back past the athletics track (the road was actually quite low there), right at the bottom and then back to the main entrace which is bottom left.

Unfortunately I was born in '77 so missed Dad winning the famous race in '71 and the last ever race in '72, luckily I have them both on film though and had Dad talking me all arounf the "lap" we did in '99!!

Such a shame it closed and you're right about the public transport, shame there aren't any others as accessible.


That ties up with the photo.The start is what is left of North Tower and runs around the rest of the circuit until before the last corner. The bridge over the track at that point was the main entrance and also the exit from the Underground.

#30 tyjak

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 16:21

What about Limerock?

#31 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 16:24

Do any of the ovals in the States ever change corners or banking degrees?

#32 scags

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 16:28

AFAIK, Lime Rock has always been the same, execpt for the chicane on the hill that they use ocasionally.

#33 Rob G

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 16:45

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall
Do any of the ovals in the States ever change corners or banking degrees?

Yes, there are a number that have been changed - the corners at Atlanta, Richmond, and Homestead, and the banking at Homestead (a second alteration!), Bristol and Texas immediately come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.

#34 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 16:49

Originally posted by Rob G

Yes, there are a number that have been changed - the corners at Atlanta, Richmond, and Homestead, and the banking at Homestead (a second alteration!), Bristol and Texas immediately come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.


Thanks for that. I'd never really thought of it before and then it struck me and I needed to know!!

#35 Steve O'Brien

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 16:50

Originally posted by Stephen W


The club circuit at Aintree is as you say unchanged. Unfortunately certain sections of the GP track have been either dug up or built on!

:wave:


If Im not mistaken I think its only Tatts corner that has been built on, the start finish straight is still there,
I am sure I have a couple of photo's somewere of my father (Harry O'Brien) racing on the GP track in 1961 or 62 in a Lotus 20 FJ at the Aintree 200 meeting.

#36 Stephen W

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 17:15

Originally posted by Steve O'Brien


If Im not mistaken I think its only Tatts corner that has been built on, the start finish straight is still there,
I am sure I have a couple of photo's somewere of my father (Harry O'Brien) racing on the GP track in 1961 or 62 in a Lotus 20 FJ at the Aintree 200 meeting.


Unfortunately they also dug-up the part of the track at the other side of Melling Road from the end of the Railway Straight.

Although the opposite Melling Road crossing appears OK on the Google map there are some severe changes of track surface now!

:wave:

#37 2F-001

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 18:02

Just going back to the Palace for a moment... quite a bit of the course of the much earlier infiield section is discernible on the ground as pathways. Until fairly recently I use to spend many an hour cycling in and around the former track - my local 'recreation' ground.

In the aerial pics, inside of the track indicated in red, sandwiched between the back straight and a large rectangular building with a white ribbed roof (part of the swimming pool) - you can see what appears as a tiny kart track: this is a more-or-less permanent circuit used by a local radio-controlled car club.

#38 alansart

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 18:08

Originally posted by 2F-001
In the aerial pics, inside of the track indicated in red, sandwiched between the back straight and a large rectangular building with a white ribbed roof (part of the swimming pool) - you can see what appears as a tiny kart track: this is a more-or-less permanent circuit used by a local radio-controlled car club.


Well there you go - racing continues at Crystal Palace - it's better than nothing! :)

#39 h4887

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 19:08

Originally posted by Steve O'Brien
Aintree, the club circuit has not changed at all and the GP track is still there in all its glory


Sorry, it doesn't count if it's not still in use!

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#40 Cirrus

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 19:54

As has been mentioned above - in the UK, Thruxton and Mallory Park remain unchanged in layout, although resurfacing and bump smoothing at Thruxton have rendered laptime comparisons meaningless. Cadwell Park is also unchanged in layout, although some of the important (in terms of laptime) kerbs have been made considerably less friendly.

So - Mallory Park, (and maybe Goodwood) provide the best comparison between now and then. A couple of references

Mallory Park 21/10/79 FF2000 Roberto Moreno 46.4s :eek:

Goodwood 24/8/63 Formula Junior Denny Hulme (Pole time) 1:25.4

... and Jack was doing 1:26s in damp winter testing in early 1962........

#41 Barry Boor

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 21:04

IIRC the Can-Am McLarens were getting around Goodwood in not much over 60 seconds around 1970-ish.

#42 CJE

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 22:04

Sebring. I had never been there back in the day, so I don't know for sure. But I was there a few years ago for the 50th anniversary and that place reeks of history. It has a real retro feel to it!

#43 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 22:11

Summit Point :stoned:

#44 TooTall

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 22:23

Although it may not qualify as a major international circuit, Willow Springs Raceway in the high desert north of Los Angeles has the same layout and has been in regular use since the day it opened in 1953.

Cheers,
Kurt O.

#45 Barry Boor

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 22:39

CJE - the modern Sebring bears little relation to the 5.2 circuit from the 1950s and 60s. Sadly!

#46 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 22:59

Too Tall:

Isn't Willow Springs the 1st purpose built Road Circuit in North America?

#47 rdrcr

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 23:39

I'm pretty sure Kurt is correct - The long circuit at Willow Springs has effectively been in the same configuration since it opened November, 1953. So, I think you're right Dave, it's probably the oldest, purpose built road-race track in the U.S.

The Milwaukee Mile was a horse track first, but since it was converted to auto racing, (other than the years when it was still dirt), it, too, has remained unchanged - hasn't it?

#48 TooTall

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 03:38

Although Willow may be the oldest purpose built road course still in use in the US, I don't know if is the first. Off hand, and I may be wrong, but wasn't Roosevelt Raceway, used for the 1937 Vanderbilt Cup Race, purpose built?

As an aside, Willow is the first track I raced on back in 1977. Come to think of it, it was also the last, and errr, only. My wife's father raced in the early fifties and he ran several times at Willow in his MGTD-V8. Below is one of his mementos.

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Cheers,
Kurt O.

#49 Terry Walker

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 03:54

From space - and it's not far from Muroc dry lake, wasn't that where the SCTA used to run speed meets? Now within Edwards AFB. Lots of motor racing history in that neighbourhood.

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#50 George Cunningham

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 07:17

Originally posted by Disco Stu

For instance, they removed an entire hillside at the inside of turn 4. It used to be a blind corner, now you can see the next turn from well in the distance.


Do you mean the inside of turn 3 ?

I seem to recall a huge sand cliff at one time on the inside of 3 which made it almost a blind corner. The following pictures show what it looks like now:

This is the exit of 3 looking up to 4 and, as you can see, removing any hillside which might have been at the inside of 4 wouldn't have made much difference as the track just drops off to the left when it goes down through the shute at 4.

Posted Image

This is 3 looking back at 2 and the landscape appears to have been flattened out on the inside of 3.

Posted Image

I believe this can only be corner 10 coming onto the pit straight. It seems to me that the entrance and exit to 10 are a lot wider now.

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I think 1 is probably a wider as well notwithstanding the new pit exit as seen here.

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Lastly, a shot of my car on the pit straight; I don't remember it being that wide during the 1970s

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