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The Maserati 151#002 of Maserati France


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#51 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 22:02

:wave: Sorry Barry but I really dont see what you are after. Please start from post 46 ,I feel you are a bit off topic. But let me add that Ferrari f.ex. had 107 starts to Maseratis 26 ! And with no wins for Maserati statistically seen 4 times the entries to match Ferrari still wont give any wins ! So much for records and statistics , my point however was that less money COULD give less preparation and less development and thus less reliability which certainly has been the case many times at Maserati IMO! Seldom :smoking: was it a lack of speed !

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#52 Barry Boor

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 22:11

My point is simply that irrespective of the amount (or lack) of money that was poured in to the Maserati efforts at Le Mans, their reliability, and hence their success record is dreadful!

Remember, in the mid-1950s they were entering a full works team with top level Grand Prix drivers, and during that period, they never got a single car to the finish. The two 1950s finishers were private entries.

Then, the Camoradi effort, though probably under-financed, was works backed and they never made it to the end, either.

It took Briggs Cunningham's efforts to finally get a top 6 finish - ONE!

This may be straying from the topic a bit and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Maseratis. No-one is more disappointed than I at their woeful Le Mans record.

#53 Jerry Entin

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 23:06

Willem the Great now speaks:
Maserati's record at Le Mans is pretty dismal. I don't think it had to do with any lack of money, more with bad luck, the fact that the 4-bangers in the 1960 Birdcages weren't endurance material, that the overheating V12's were too experimental and that Dallara's rear suspension used on the early Tipo 151's a nightmare. As for later Tipo 151s, one entry does not give you any reasonable odds to survive 24 hours, no matter how fast the car is.

As for the numbers, in 1961:
- of 11 Ferraris entered, 4 finished [a survival rate of 36%]
- of 5 Porsches entered, 2 finished [a rate of 40%]
- of 4 Maseratis entered, 2 finished [a rate of 50%]

Above by Willem Oosthoek: There are books avaliable David. Willemoosthoek@aol.com


#54 driverider

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:12

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
:wave: Sorry Barry but I really dont see what you are after. Please start from post 46 ,I feel you are a bit off topic. But let me add that Ferrari f.ex. had 107 starts to Maseratis 26 ! And with no wins for Maserati statistically seen 4 times the entries to match Ferrari still wont give any wins ! So much for records and statistics , my point however was that less money COULD give less preparation and less development and thus less reliability which certainly has been the case many times at Maserati IMO! Seldom :smoking: was it a lack of speed !


It is a matter of record that Maserati were under resourced - pulling out of GP racing in 57, constant changes in ownership, and the frequent running of prime Maserati entries by private teams such as Temple Buell, Col Simone etc and not the factory

The cars were often well designed and engineered but poorly tested and developed and the nature of the failures often look like poor preparation

It certainly looks like availability of money and results are linked in this period as it is also clear that the cars had the performance - a privateer team running third after five hours of LeMans against factory teams! - its a shame that they couldnt get the results that the car deserved

#55 Barry Boor

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:28

I totally agree!

#56 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:31

:wave: Thank you ! :smoking:

#57 Jerry Entin

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 14:22

Willem speaks again: Temple Buell at Le Mans? When did that happen?

As for changes in ownership, the owners did not change at all in the period that Maseratis appeared at Le Mans: 1954 to 1965.

As for lack of funds, up to 1958 Maserati had more money to spend on racing than Ferrari, thanks to the company's diversified industrial activities.

The highest finish was accomplished in 1961 by a private entrant who lacked no money.

The main reason Maserati failed at Le Mans was bad luck and the numbers game. You can't win if you don't enter enough cars.

all research Willem Oosthoek

#58 driverider

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 15:03

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Willem speaks again: Temple Buell at Le Mans? When did that happen?

As for changes in ownership, the owners did not change at all in the period that Maseratis appeared at Le Mans: 1954 to 1965.

As for lack of funds, up to 1958 Maserati had more money to spend on racing than Ferrari, thanks to the company's diversified industrial activities.

The highest finish was accomplished in 1961 by a private entrant who lacked no money.

The main reason Maserati failed at Le Mans was bad luck and the numbers game. You can't win if you don't enter enough cars.

all research Willem Oosthoek




Temple Buell in the US ran the last 250Fs - 1958 - GP cars - not sure who said they ran at Le Mans?

Maserati had frequent changes in ownership from pre war years to the present day

They might or might not have had more money to spend on racing - but it seems clear that they did not spend it on racing

A private entrant is not really any match for a full factory team

The numbers game also depends on the failure rate - this was high - mainly down to poor prep due to lack of resources

#59 fines

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 15:31

Originally posted by driverider
A private entrant is not really any match for a full factory team

Such as Tyrrell Racing Organisation against March Engineering in 1970?

Or Scuderia Achille Varzi against Officine Alfieri M. in 1949?

Or RRC Walker Racing against Cooper Cars in 1958, and against Team Lotus in 1960/1?

Don't get me started on American Racing here...

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#60 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 15:55

:wave: It is very easy not to "start" anything here .....just look at the title of this thread . :smoking:

#61 fines

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:11

Hmm, the last dozen or so posts in this thread were not about "The Maserati 151#002 of Maserati France", so are you proposing to open a new thread for this latest turn of discussions? Oh no, I recall, every time a new thread is opened you cry wolf and send the poster back to pre school figuratively, for not having searched the nine-year back catalogue of this BB! Rats!

I think it's high time you grew up, Bjørn. :(

#62 driverider

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:15

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
:wave: It is very easy not to "start" anything here .....just look at the title of this thread . :smoking:


It is easy to get blown off topic - maybe it warrants another thread

The question I asked was about personal experiences of the 151 #002

#63 driverider

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:20

Originally posted by fines
Hmm, the last dozen or so posts in this thread were not about "The Maserati 151#002 of Maserati France", so are you proposing to open a new thread for this latest turn of discussions? Oh no, I recall, every time a new thread is opened you cry wolf and send the poster back to pre school figuratively, for not having searched the nine-year back catalogue of this BB! Rats!

I think it's high time you grew up, Bjørn. :(


I never understand why people have to personalise these dicussions

There is a discussion going on about the 151 and the broader issue of maserati's resource base in this period - in so much as it is relevant to the 151 - can we just stay on topic and try and develop understanding?

#64 Paul Parker

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:48

No self promotion intended.

If you want to see some colour of this car in 1963 I have used two from Le Mans 1963 in Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69, one profile shot and one head on in the pits with appropriate persons.

I also used a 1964 Le Mans pic but this is probably familiar to many.

#65 Roger Clark

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 17:44

I believe that the three V12 Maseratis at Le Mans in 1961 all had engine capacity of around 3-litres but all had different bore and stroke. That might go some way to explaining their unreliability. I know that two finished Le Mans, but I'm referring to Maserati's general approach.

Ferrari did have eleven starters, but only three were the 3-litre V12s which were the main hope for victory. One was a V6 2.4-litre and the others GTs which weren't serious contenders for an outright win, except perhaps the Moss/Hill car. In fact, it could be argued that Ferrari were risking unreliability by spreading their resources too thinly; even the privateers often received some measure of works support. There was also the Grand Prix programme. In the next few years Ferrari were often accused of neglecting GP racing until Le Mans was over, but I don't think you can say that of 1961.

Of course, Hill and Gendebien would probably have cruised to an easy victory if two Mexican children had done as they were told and respected their elders and better

#66 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 18:06

:wave:Sorry for not living up to your standards , but here are the TNF threads I found on the T151's (via the searchBB if you spend some time ), now we are talking about that car :

Le Mans Maserati (early '60s) 16/1-01
Maseratis 19/1-01
Maserati Tipo 151 replica? 13/4-02
Maserati 151 14/12-02
Maserati Tipo 151, chassis 006 1/5-05
Maserati Tipo 151 :"The last monster from Modena" 15/11-05

the dates referring to the thread starts. :smoking: I belive there are some good additional infos here! :smoking:

#67 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 19:17

:wave: Post for Michael : Look in your mirror and you will see who needs to grow up !

:( Sorry mates!

#68 D-Type

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 22:42

Let's face it. The basic contention that the Tipo 151 was under-developed and a bit fragile like all Maserati sports cars except the 300S is true.
350S in the Mille Miglia, 450S, Tipo 61, Tipo 63 ....
But they were all magnificent beasts

#69 driverider

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 06:41

Originally posted by Paul Parker
No self promotion intended.

If you want to see some colour of this car in 1963 I have used two from Le Mans 1963 in Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69, one profile shot and one head on in the pits with appropriate persons.

I also used a 1964 Le Mans pic but this is probably familiar to many.


Has anyone a colour picture from 1965 ?

#70 Paul Parker

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 14:34

I have only ever seen or found b/w of this final evocation of 151/2 but perhaps somebody has colour somewhere although the 1965 Le Mans test weekend was pretty grey and drizzly.

Why not try Michel Bollee, he is very helpful and might know somebody who has a colour image or two. The 151 book he did with Willem Oosthoek has only b/w of the fateful weekend.

Good luck.

#71 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 15:47

Originally posted by Paul Parker
No self promotion intended.

..... in Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69, .....


:up: :up: :up: Great book!

When may we add:

Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69 II :blush:

on our book shelves????

#72 Paul Parker

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Posted 02 July 2008 - 16:17

Thank you Arjan de Roos.

Sports Car Racing in Camera 1970-79 arriving shortly and I must give credit for the assistance of the TNF regulars and their knowledge of all things old and arcane.

Thanks again!

#73 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 07:36

:wave: This last monster (the absolute last , the Tipo 65 belongs "under" bird-supercages) could be categorized into 3 : The unpainted (alu coloured for practising) , the Red (for racing with modified rear window) and the white (newcolours for 65 practice( and sad end)).
To driverider :I have yet to see colour pictures of the white one , except from scale models !

To Arjan : I can only add :up: :up: :up: as to his suggestion of a II 60-69 book (Paul !)

And to Paul : I (we) look forward to that , it being about the last period of sports cars before rules take over and make them lookalikes (?). I hope it will be a seller , so that you can .............. :smoking:

#74 Odseybod

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 09:46

Yes, '65 versio defintiely white but maybe with some blue stripes somewhere. Was standing next to it in the paddock at the Le Mans Test Days that year when they fired it up (and made my teenage trousering all sooty with its under-door side exhaust). But the only pic (black and white) I can find is of its sad remains beside the Mulsanne straight, which wouldn't tell anybody anything very much except about its underside (though will put it on here later if anyone's interested).

#75 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 11:15

:wave: T.T. , no doubt about the 3 stripes though : Red , blue ,red !

Must have been a hell of an experience ! :smoking:

#76 ry6

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 18:50

For 1963 at least the weather was kinder and the main race was this time for Sports and GT cars, and in the dry….another splendid entry was received.
Once again the Maserati was hopeless…..
For fans of this period I’ll jot down the runners from my scribbled lap chart -- lap 2 to be precise
1st Roger Penske-Zerex Special (single seater)
2nd Roy Salvadori-CT Atkins Cooper T61 Maserati
3rd
18th Jimmy Blumer-Marina Rolls Royce ( who else remembers that!!??)
19th Augie Pabst-John Mecom Lola GT Chevrolet
20th


…I’d pay serious money to see that again!!

David Fox
______________________________________________________________________

David

Please tell us a bit more about Jimmy Blumer's Rolls Royce!

Rob

#77 Tim Murray

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:11

Originally posted by ry6
Please tell us a bit more about Jimmy Blumer's Rolls Royce!

There are a few details in this earlier thread:

Rolls Royce V8 Special