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Bruno Senna 2008


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#1 Barri

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 00:20

Where will be Bruno be in 2008?

Will he test a F1 soon?

Will he be in F1 in 2008?

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#2 senna da silva

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 00:38

Originally posted by Barri
Where will be Bruno be in 2008?

Will he test a F1 soon?

Will he be in F1 in 2008?


I hope so, but I think he may be better served racing in GP2 another year.

#3 tkulla

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:12

Actually, I suspect next year will be crucial for Bruno in GP2. He had a solid rookie campaign, but next year he needs to show that he's a top prospect for F1 by dominating his teammate and contending for the title.

#4 predatore

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:29

De Grassi > Bruno.

#5 coyoteBR

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:43

Kazuki Nakagima (I know he'll race in Brazil, but no words about his future)
Nelsinho Piquet
Sebastién Bourdais
Lucas di Grassi
Timo Glock
Lucca Filippi
Alexandre Prémat
Xandi Negrão
Marko Asmer
Romain Grosjean
Kamui Kobayashi
Adam Carroll

After you get seats for these, we can talk Bruno S.

#6 mach4

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:56

Originally posted by coyoteBR
Kazuki Nakagima (I know he'll race in Brazil, but no words about his future)
Nelsinho Piquet
Sebastién Bourdais
Lucas di Grassi
Timo Glock
Lucca Filippi
Alexandre Prémat
Xandi Negrão
Marko Asmer
Romain Grosjean
Kamui Kobayashi
Adam Carroll

After you get seats for these, we can talk Bruno S.


Xandi Negrão? What has he ever done besides coming from a rich family?

#7 ViMaMo

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 02:59

Originally posted by coyoteBR
Kazuki Nakagima (I know he'll race in Brazil, but no words about his future)
Nelsinho Piquet
Sebastién Bourdais
Lucas di Grassi
Timo Glock
Lucca Filippi
Alexandre Prémat
Xandi Negrão
Marko Asmer
Romain Grosjean
Kamui Kobayashi
Adam Carroll

After you get seats for these, we can talk Bruno S.


):

Jamie Green creamed Alexander Premat in F3!


#8 senna da silva

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 03:21

Originally posted by coyoteBR
Kazuki Nakagima (I know he'll race in Brazil, but no words about his future)
Nelsinho Piquet
Sebastién Bourdais
Lucas di Grassi
Timo Glock
Lucca Filippi
Alexandre Prémat
Xandi Negrão
Marko Asmer
Romain Grosjean
Kamui Kobayashi
Adam Carroll

After you get seats for these, we can talk Bruno S.


Bourdais has a seat.

#9 tidytracks

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:18

Kazuki Nakajima - ART (GP2) with an outside shot at Toyota (F1)
Nelsinho Piquet - Renault or Williams (F1)
Sebastién Bourdais - Toro Rosso (F1)
Lucas di Grassi - Good shot for Renault (F1) tester. Failing that I worry for him in F1.
Timo Glock - 95% set for Toyota race seat (F1) with Williams an outside chance
Luca Filippi - 3rd year of GP2 with a test role at Honda (F1)
Alexandre Prémat - DTM
Xandi Negrão - You're kidding, right?
Marko Asmer - He needs at least 2 years in GP2
Romain Grosjean - GP2, probably as Nakajima's team-mate at ART.
Kamui Kobayashi - GP2. He was desperately unimpressive in recent GP2 testing. He'll be there in 2008, although where is anyone's guess.
Adam Carroll - Back to GP2 with iSport if he can get the budget

After you get seats for these, we can talk Bruno S. - Carroll's team-mate at iSport in GP2. Test runs with a few F1 teams leading to a full time race or test gig in 2009.

#10 gio66

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 13:39

Bruno will race another year in GP2, maybe on iSport.
He did a good job in Jerez with the Paul Jackson's team and he's very pleased for the record lap.
The iSport is a completely different car than Arden... (look at the Conway and Van Der Garde best laps).
He would run the GP2 Asian Series too, to accumulate more experience, but is not sure.
2008 will be the "year of truth": Bruno should win or... stops his career. There's no other way.

#11 gio66

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 13:42

Originally posted by tidytracks

Luca Filippi - 3rd year of GP2 with a test role at Honda (F1)


Luca Filippi - ART (GP2) and test driver Honda (F1)

#12 tidytracks

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 13:44

Originally posted by gio66


Luca Filippi - ART (GP2) and test driver Honda (F1)


ART highly debatable. I'd love to see it, but I just don't know. iSport seems more likely but I think a Carroll / Senna line-up is the preferred option there.

#13 tidytracks

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 13:47

Originally posted by gio66
Bruno should win or... stops his career. There's no other way.


Slightly harsh assesment I think...

Senna only started racing in 2004, so to claim his career would be over if he wasn't GP2 champ next year is unrealistic.

He's done, BMW 2004, Brit F3 2005, Brit F3 2006, GP2 2007

Thats a hell of a learning curve with no (real competitive) karting experience.

#14 gio66

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 14:06

Originally posted by tidytracks


ART highly debatable. I'd love to see it, but I just don't know. iSport seems more likely but I think a Carroll / Senna line-up is the preferred option there.


It seems that, in Spa, there has been a meeting with Nicolas Todt in the Ferrari's hospitality.
These are the rumors...

#15 gio66

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 14:11

Originally posted by tidytracks


Slightly harsh assesment I think...

Senna only started racing in 2004, so to claim his career would be over if he wasn't GP2 champ next year is unrealistic.

He's done, BMW 2004, Brit F3 2005, Brit F3 2006, GP2 2007

Thats a hell of a learning curve with no (real competitive) karting experience.


What you say is true but Bruno wants to win.
He wants to show to be a good driver.
He wants to become a champion.
He is not interested in running like one of the many.
He don't need nor money nor publicity. He only needs to win.

#16 united

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 14:49

I think Senna should stop exploiting his brand name and start some real racing. He was not convincing at all in his first year in GP2. In my eyes he is no better than Villa, for instance. A lot of people expected something more especially after some classy debut years by Piquet-Jr and Hamilton in GP2.

#17 tidytracks

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 14:57

Originally posted by united
I think Senna should stop exploiting his brand name and start some real racing. He was not convincing at all in his first year in GP2. In my eyes he is no better than Villa, for instance. A lot of people expected something more especially after some classy debut years by Piquet-Jr and Hamilton in GP2.


I kind of see where you're coming from, but there's more to his season than meets the eye. Arden are always strong for the first few races and then tail off in GP2. Bruno won only his third ever GP2 race (second weekend). Not Hamilton, nor Piquet, being the examples you pick out, were able to do that. And all this on a track at which GP2 had tested not more than a month previously and the top 20 drivers had been within a second of each other.

Senna is hardly exploiting his name. As he's said, sure it helps to open doors, but its not his name that wins races. It's not his name that gets into the car.

Even Kovalainen looked shit in an Arden at the end of the season for the simple reason that the team does very little development work and does very little listening to its drivers.

The fact that Bruno was able to keep dragging the team up was a testament to him. I, for one, was impressed. And bear in mind the fact that he, as a rookie, beat Andi Zuber who was racing for the championship winning iSport team, and his job becomes all the more impressive.

I think he needs time to adapt, to grow and to learn, but don't slam the kid based on a misconception.

#18 gio66

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 18:21

Originally posted by united
A lot of people expected something more especially after some classy debut years by Piquet-Jr and Hamilton in GP2.


A lot of people?

Who?

Maybe some press who already dreamed that SUDDENLY, without any practical apprenticeship, is arrived the phenomenon that would allowed them to write so many pages and sell more newspapers. Certainly not those who understand a bit of motorsport and knows very well that, as you may have talent you still need, in your third year career with a very difficult car to drive, one only thing: TO LEARN!

"For me GP2 is a two-year project, and this year will be a very good learning year. I want to go for the title in 2008. It will be a big challenge because GP2 is a very competitive series."
So Bruno said on january http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/56224

The season started so FANTASTIC! Even a win in Barcelona and maybe someone has "flyed too much higher", but not Bruno! Unfortunately, after Silverstone the car had many inexplicable problems for the team and he has not yet managed to get out. If you look at his teammate Zaugg (which, according to many people, should have been a phenomenon, but is almost always finished behind Bruno, both proof that race, and have not seen the podium this year!) you'll see that his exploits were modest.

Finally, I would like to say that Bruno, in my opinion, is not being managed well! This year, at the same price, he could be on ART or iSport (Banco Santander pays the entire cost), but that XXXX of Berger convinced him for Arden.
But that's another story....

Sorry for my terrible English.

#19 noikeee

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 18:31

Yeah, I was a tad disappointed with his second half of the season, but wouldn't write him off, at all. The first half was a good indicator, and the fact that he beat Zaugg convincingly as well - just look at how good Zaugg looks in A1GP now, A1GP might not be the best place to judge drivers, but it's enough to give a clear message that Zaugg isn't useless. It's also quite clear Arden was Bruno's biggest problem this year.

I expect him to be in a championship contender team for next year, and him to win a couple races. Whether he'll be good enough to get the same sort of status as Hamilton/Rosberg/Kovalainen/Piquet earned in GP2, remains to be seen. But it's a possibility.

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#20 molive

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 01:52

For a Senna, he's doing OK.;)

#21 gio66

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 09:27

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/63380

#22 united

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 09:27

Originally posted by tidytracks


I kind of see where you're coming from, but there's more to his season than meets the eye. Arden are always strong for the first few races and then tail off in GP2. Bruno won only his third ever GP2 race (second weekend). Not Hamilton, nor Piquet, being the examples you pick out, were able to do that. And all this on a track at which GP2 had tested not more than a month previously and the top 20 drivers had been within a second of each other.

Senna is hardly exploiting his name. As he's said, sure it helps to open doors, but its not his name that wins races. It's not his name that gets into the car.

Even Kovalainen looked shit in an Arden at the end of the season for the simple reason that the team does very little development work and does very little listening to its drivers.

The fact that Bruno was able to keep dragging the team up was a testament to him. I, for one, was impressed. And bear in mind the fact that he, as a rookie, beat Andi Zuber who was racing for the championship winning iSport team, and his job becomes all the more impressive.

I think he needs time to adapt, to grow and to learn, but don't slam the kid based on a misconception.


In hindsight, I would say that my initial comment was a little bit harsh. I am not trolling, and frankly saying trolling is impossible for GP2 guys. But I am convinced that for obvious reasons Senna is receiving some preferential exposure while his results are not correlating with this. Your strongest point is that Senna won his 3rd race in the season. I am not going to mention some extreme nature of the 1st Barcelona race, but we cannot hide from the fact that the first 9 races (both sprint and feature) of the season were won by 9 different people. To a certain extent that flatters everyone who won.

After this initial phase of growth, there was some massive downturn for Senna. I believe that he only returned to claiming points in Istanbul and validating result in Monza races. Basically there were two high points of his season - Barcelona and Monza. If you insist on comparing him to Zuber, I would compare Senna to Carroll, who came out of the blue in France and managed to leave the best impression.

And now for that 2 years programme. I reckon Hamilton was also on a two years schedule which turned into the title in the very first year of participation. And Lewis DID have some troubles during his first season. So it depends.

I am going to agree with you totally on a fact that Senna needs another year in GP2 to create a fuller and brighter picture, and if I am going to look like pointless basher after that I will be the first to admit my mistake.

#23 tidytracks

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:01

Originally posted by united


In hindsight, I would say that my initial comment was a little bit harsh. I am not trolling, and frankly saying trolling is impossible for GP2 guys. But I am convinced that for obvious reasons Senna is receiving some preferential exposure while his results are not correlating with this. Your strongest point is that Senna won his 3rd race in the season. I am not going to mention some extreme nature of the 1st Barcelona race, but we cannot hide from the fact that the first 9 races (both sprint and feature) of the season were won by 9 different people. To a certain extent that flatters everyone who won.

After this initial phase of growth, there was some massive downturn for Senna. I believe that he only returned to claiming points in Istanbul and validating result in Monza races. Basically there were two high points of his season - Barcelona and Monza. If you insist on comparing him to Zuber, I would compare Senna to Carroll, who came out of the blue in France and managed to leave the best impression.

And now for that 2 years programme. I reckon Hamilton was also on a two years schedule which turned into the title in the very first year of participation. And Lewis DID have some troubles during his first season. So it depends.

I am going to agree with you totally on a fact that Senna needs another year in GP2 to create a fuller and brighter picture, and if I am going to look like pointless basher after that I will be the first to admit my mistake.


You're not being a pointless basher at all. Unlike some posters on this bb your arguments are reasoned and calm! Debate can be enjoyable and doesn't have to be filled with rhetoric and childish points scoring.

As someone who has followed GP2 intimately from its outset however I have to say that comparing between teams is a tough task. I only brought up Zuber as he was in the championship-winning team and is highly regarded (rumoured to be testing for Honda later this year) and so the fact that Senna finished above him, I think, speaks highly of Bruno.

Comparing Senna with Carroll however really is a tough task. There has perhaps never been another driver in the series so well suited to the characteristics of the car as Adam Carroll. His experience of the series and of this level shone through this season. He was massively impressive, but he always is. The great news is that if we really want a comparison, it looks as though we may get one at iSport next season as Carroll and Senna are rumoured to be the team's preferred line-up.

You pick Monza up as a high point, and I fully agree - and for that reason you have to look at the solid job Senna did at a team which perpetually slips further and further off the pace as the season wears on.

We can try and compare drivers to each other until we are blue in the face, but the one thing that keeps coming back to me is that Bruno is so very inexperienced compared to the guys against whom he is racing. To me that makes each of his achievements that much more impressive.

#24 gio66

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:16

Originally posted by united
After this initial phase of growth, there was some massive downturn for Senna. I believe that he only returned to claiming points in Istanbul and validating result in Monza races.


You forget the podium in Magny Cours and third place in qualifying in Spa.

Basically there were two high points of his season - Barcelona and Monza. If you insist on comparing him to Zuber, I would compare Senna to Carroll, who came out of the blue in France and managed to leave the best impression.


Of course, you can compare what you want but Carroll (an excellent driver) was in its third year in GP2. You can not make a similar comparison.


And now for that 2 years programme. I reckon Hamilton was also on a two years schedule which turned into the title in the very first year of participation. And Lewis DID have some troubles during his first season. So it depends.


I think that Lewis is a predestined. He goes beyond any comparison

#25 united

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:25

Originally posted by tidytracks


You're not being a pointless basher at all. Unlike some posters on this bb your arguments are reasoned and calm! Debate can be enjoyable and doesn't have to be filled with rhetoric and childish points scoring.

As someone who has followed GP2 intimately from its outset however I have to say that comparing between teams is a tough task. I only brought up Zuber as he was in the championship-winning team and is highly regarded (rumoured to be testing for Honda later this year) and so the fact that Senna finished above him, I think, speaks highly of Bruno.

Comparing Senna with Carroll however really is a tough task. There has perhaps never been another driver in the series so well suited to the characteristics of the car as Adam Carroll. His experience of the series and of this level shone through this season. He was massively impressive, but he always is. The great news is that if we really want a comparison, it looks as though we may get one at iSport next season as Carroll and Senna are rumoured to be the team's preferred line-up.

You pick Monza up as a high point, and I fully agree - and for that reason you have to look at the solid job Senna did at a team which perpetually slips further and further off the pace as the season wears on.

We can try and compare drivers to each other until we are blue in the face, but the one thing that keeps coming back to me is that Bruno is so very inexperienced compared to the guys against whom he is racing. To me that makes each of his achievements that much more impressive.


I am strongly rooting for Carroll to get this iSport seat, and Paul Jackson is full of praise for him, but budget is a perennial problem for Adam. But if he manages to get the drive along with Senna, there will be a pretty decent benchmark for a young Brazilian and a great possibility to hear some feedback from Adam himself. He seems to be really friendly with his team mates (Villa is a great example), so it's a win win situation for Senna.

#26 gio66

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:25

Originally posted by tidytracks


You pick Monza up as a high point, and I fully agree - and for that reason you have to look at the solid job Senna did at a team which perpetually slips further and further off the pace as the season wears on.

We can try and compare drivers to each other until we are blue in the face, but the one thing that keeps coming back to me is that Bruno is so very inexperienced compared to the guys against whom he is racing. To me that makes each of his achievements that much more impressive.


Your final analysis is perfect.

I know Bruno and I was present in Monza.
After qualifying, Bruno was very angry with the team, he almost broke relations
Like a miracle, the day after his Dallara was much more performance and reached the 4th and 3rd place.
It seems as if the team has woken up only after Bruno's angry.

P.S. Maybe, one day I will learn English...

#27 tidytracks

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:31

Originally posted by united


I am strongly rooting for Carroll to get this iSport seat, and Paul Jackson is full of praise for him, but budget is a perennial problem for Adam. But if he manages to get the drive along with Senna, there will be a pretty decent benchmark for a young Brazilian and a great possibility to hear some feedback from Adam himself. He seems to be really friendly with his team mates (Villa is a great example), so it's a win win situation for Senna.


And a win-win situation for iSport who have shown, as ART did in 2005 and 2006, that the only way you win the crown is with two strong drivers.

On the basis of their championship, and with a commercially attractive name like Bruno Senna on board, I'm hoping their sponsorship department can come up trumps and get the team enough funding to place Adam for minimal budget.

#28 united

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:34

Originally posted by gio66
I think that Lewis is a predestined. He goes beyond any comparison


With due respect, Piquet did not look that appalling near Hamilton in 2006.

#29 tidytracks

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 10:59

Originally posted by united


With due respect, Piquet did not look that appalling near Hamilton in 2006.


He looked far from appalling, and that's a fact missed by a lot of people. Don't forget he was in a team that he had to lead, with no real backup from his team-mate, and not only did he take the championship of a spec series to the wire with the kid who is re-writing F1 history, but he took his team to second in the championship based almost entirely on his own points haul.

#30 selespeed

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 11:13

basicaly nelsinho kicked ass! :)

#31 pingu666

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 14:57

from what little i saw, hami and piquet where very very close in gp2

#32 predatore

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:27

Originally posted by pingu666
from what little i saw, hami and piquet where very very close in gp2


Yep.

#33 Buttoneer

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:57

Originally posted by pingu666
from what little i saw, hami and piquet where very very close in gp2

It was Nelsinho's second year in GP2.

#34 carbonfibre

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:58

Yep Piquet jr really drove a fantastic 2nd part of the season in his last GP2 season.

#35 molive

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 16:32

Hey, no one here can deny that having Piquet and Senna names back in F1 would be cool (well, at least for Brazilian fans it would for sure). I enjoyed watching Villeneuve (and now Rosberg) carry on with their father's legacies. Otoh, guys like Andretti and Fittipaldi (the nephew) didnt quite make it (at least in F1), despite the famous surname.

#36 united

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 17:14

Originally posted by molive
Hey, no one here can deny that having Piquet and Senna names back in F1 would be cool (well, at least for Brazilian fans it would for sure). I enjoyed watching Villeneuve (and now Rosberg) carry on with their father's legacies. Otoh, guys like Andretti and Fittipaldi (the nephew) didnt quite make it (at least in F1), despite the famous surname.


I strongly defy this approach. Though no one can argue that some father's sons have real talent, certain people are really using its name for additional promotion. Promising driver + Senna surname = a huge interest for a casual viewer (who is really not that enlightened about GP2 or F3 or whatever). Promising driver + John Doe name = lack of interest.

#37 carbonfibre

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 17:21

About Senna: he didnt really impress me that much this year. He did some good stuff but overal to many mistakes. I hope he does another year of GP2 and then show he has improved.

#38 Juan Kerr

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 20:43

Forget Ayrton(who happens to be my favourite I admit) I think Bruno is great. There's something about his driving that looks really fast, his car always seems to be working harder than anyone elses especially in braking, he's got an oversteery setup like Hamilton(and Senna) and seems to be very competant at jumping into bigger more powerful motors.
Look at Conway in F3 he beat Senna but it was Senna that looked more electric in the wet in spa and seemed to have better car control, low and behold they get to GP2 and Senna looks way quicker and in control of the bigger car than Conway. I think he could easily cope with F1 but has a massive amount of setup engineering experience to gain first.

#39 gio66

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 21:17

If you want more information about the Bruno's career, please read here.

http://www.brunosenn...it/homeing.html

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#40 ezequiel

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 13:48

Originally posted by united
I think Senna should stop exploiting his brand name and start some real racing. He was not convincing at all in his first year in GP2. In my eyes he is no better than Villa, for instance. A lot of people expected something more especially after some classy debut years by Piquet-Jr and Hamilton in GP2.


well, Piquet Jr. was not more impressive that someone like Jani in first GP2 season...

EDIT: oh, and I think some people here are being to harsh on Bruno. He showed considerable speed in f3 and last year in GP2 he outperformed teammate Adrian Zaugg most of the time and even won a race..

#41 GreyKitten

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 17:22

Originally posted by pingu666
from what little i saw, hami and piquet where very very close in gp2


I cannot wait until Nelson Jnr gets a seat in a competitive F1 car. I'm really looking forward to seeing him and LH racing again.

Bruno:- for sure there's something there but I think he really needs another year in GP2 before we can say whether he has the potential or not.
Of course it would be great to have a Senna in F1 again, but not a second-rate Senna - a name is just a name but that is one hell of a big name to live up to!

I hope he has it and I hope he uses it well!
:)

#42 jonpollak

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 12:40

Outside of the slow start off the line
Nice job in the GP2 Asia race today
Well Done Bruno :up:

Jp

#43 F3000

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 12:51

Hi jonpollak,

Do you have any more news on the Dubai GP2 Asia race?

#44 tidytracks

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 13:08

Grosjean led from pole, Soucek gunned Senna with an overtake early on while Chandhok had a poor start.

Early laps saw Grosjean lead Soucek and Senna. Chandhok spun after his pitstop on cold tyres, while Senna was stuck behind Soucek for 35ish laps.

Senna eventually took second with around 6 laps left with a great move around the outside of Soucek, who then fell back towards Valles and Filippi.

By this point Grosjean had just set a fastest lap half a second quicker than anyone else. Worrying? Not so, when Senna smashed it with his own FL, showing the potantial for what might have been a great battle had soucek not put up such a brave and staunch defense of second place.

A good race for second back, but Grosjean walked the win by more than 10 seconds.

So the race ended: Grosjean, Senna, Soucek, Valles, Filippi, Yoshimoto, Buemi, Chandhok

the points will be:

Grosjean 12, Senna 9, Soucek 6, Valles 5, Filippi 4, Yoshi 3, Buemi 2, Chandhok 1.

ART 12, iSport 10, Meritus 7, DPR 6, FMS 5, Arden 2

#45 F3000

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 13:16

Thanks very much tidytracks, nice to know what happened.

It should be even better tomorrow watching Senna and Grosjean work their way to the front.

#46 WACKO

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 19:33

I hope Ferrari will give Bruno a chance to test. Yeah I know, still day dreaming of the Senna name on a Ferrari. Cliché it is, but it would be cool wouldn't it?...

#47 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 19:36

If it was Ayrton, maybe.

#48 Juan Kerr

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 20:03

I wonder if Senna will do a better job at overtaking than Romain and perhaps end up even closer on points at the end of the weekend ?

#49 Jacquesback

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 20:27

Originally posted by WACKO
I hope Ferrari will give Bruno a chance to test. Yeah I know, still day dreaming of the Senna name on a Ferrari. Cliché it is, but it would be cool wouldn't it?...


I'd like to see the name of Senna on the side of a McLaren again consistently destroying the Ferraris. :up:

#50 carbonfibre

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 21:07

Better get yourself a old video or dvd....;)