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Massa- Kubica at Fuji


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#1 thiscocks

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 16:58

As I fondly remembered watching this battle at the end of the race, I thought id watch a clip on you-tube which is on-board with Massa (see link at bottom). Well, I cant actually believe how bad their race eticate is watching this. Every overtake is one or the other bascically pushing each other off the track! Massa in particular, doesnt leave any room for Kubica when its obvious he is alongside (he must know hes along side, or perhaps the view really is that bad??!!).

It also just highlights how F1 needs to get rid of these crappy tarmac run-off areas. Massa beat him over the line from bascically being TOTALY off the track, on a different peice of (probably grippier) tarmac. How does that work?.. :|

Although it was a great battle to watch, and the kind off arnoux-villneuve style racing you dont see too often, it does highlight how the drivers care little about racing conduct mainly because (I suspect) the cars are so safe, and they never fear a big accident.

enjoy: massa-kubica

Any thoughts?

Tim

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#2 IMHO

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:12

Ridiculous "racing", bring back gravel, no, make it a 3 meter deep moat full of man-eating 15 ft. African crocodiles. Tarmac at the edge of the circuit is for pussies. They are supposed the best drivers in the world after all and should be able to keep it on the track.

#3 robnyc

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:12

Awesome!!!! Massa really impressed me there.

Best on track battle since Alonso Button in 04 I think.

#4 Tigershark

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:22

Originally posted by thiscocks
Any thoughts?

There's way too much tarmac next to the track, both Kubica and Massa were all over the place during this fight, creating wider corners at their own chosing and cutting others. On the other hand it looked nice, and I can't fault the drivers for doing it. This is something the circuits should put a stop to.

#5 IMHO

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:24

Looked nice?
Looked pathetic is more like it.

#6 Yellowmc

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:29

If that wasn't on the last lap both would be penalised, it was almost as if they thought - "Hold on, he just cut the corner so I'm going to cut the next one regardless of where he is!"

#7 Atreiu

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:31

You guys will always find something top complain about.
Perhaps Massa should just have sit tight waiting for Kubica to wave him through.

#8 imaginesix

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:33

Originally posted by Atreiu
You guys will always find something top complain about.
Perhaps Massa should just have sit tight waiting for Kubica to wave him through.

:lol: :up:

I'm sure you guys were all very good at colouring within the lines at an early age, but the rest of us don't mind it if a driver crosses the line when the circumstances call for it.

#9 ensign14

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:39

They took those risks BECAUSE of the tarmac everywhere. It leads to a different racing attitude.

#10 Lontano

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:39

Really bad driving from massa there. kubica returning the favour wasn't good, but Massa was simply pathetic.

#11 Buttoneer

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:41

Originally posted by thiscocks

Any thoughts?

Yes. Publishing it here means Bernard will have his legal eagles on the case to have it removed even quicker now.

Which is a shame because...well because it's quite brilliant to watch.

#12 kar

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:53

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Yes. Publishing it here means Bernard will have his legal eagles on the case to have it removed even quicker now.

Which is a shame because...well because it's quite brilliant to watch.


Indeed, that was racing. Good thing it wasn't for the lead though or a podium position lest we'd have been mired in challenge and counter challenge with the fia and stewards.

That brand of racing, sadly, is no longer really permissible :(

#13 SuperDaan

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 17:53

here we go, from the moment the overtaking starts.
my opinion:

1st corner: Massa takes the inside and overtakes.
2nd corner: kubica overtakes and massa lifts.
3rd corner: Massa brakes very late, overtakes at the inside, runs a bit wide after that.
4rd corner: Kubica comes from the left and pushes Massa over the kurbs on the run off area or whats it called there, Massa rejoins the track but let room on the left for kubica.
5th corner: Kubica tries to overtake on the outside, Massa kept he's race line and kubica is forced on the run off area. Kubica overtakes Massa.
6th corner: Massa takes back the inside and overtakes
7th corner: Massa runs a bit wide, Kubica takes the inside and forced Massa to the run off area, Massa steps on the throttle and overtakes again.


Result: Just a lot of overtaking and stuff, thanks to the rain offcourse in which the difference in braking can be made. No harm from both here in my opinion.

#14 Dragonfly

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:00

I say ban them from racing for life. Thus all "new age" "fans" will be satisfied.
:rotfl:

#15 wingwalker

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:16

I really would like to say something other than WTF when I see people complaining about this one. Yes, they both totally went at it. Yes, they both were driving dangerously. Yes, Massa won the position by using run off. SO WHAT? That was the best piece of balls out racing in 2007 by a long shot, and you people are complaining? I guess some fans do enjoy Spain-esque perfect processions. Massa and Kubica shook hands after that and were definitely happy about what they have done, how come some F1 fans are not?

edit: And how does overtaking on run offs work? Run offs are made from super grip pavement so the car can stop as fast as possible there. There was a lot more grip there in the wet than on the regular line, this launched Massa's car forward.

#16 jonpollak

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:20

Thank you WW :up:

Some of you call yourselves race fans?
Oh I can hear it now...
Health and Safety guidelines FORBID this kind of unrefined childish behaviour and PS. you had better not smack your kids regardless of the offence


God forbid drivers should ****ing try to race with each other!?!??!?!?!
sheesh.

Bravo to the both of them.
Jp

#17 F1Champion

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:25

That was great to watch, so what if there was run-off available, it lead to exciting racing. As I remember Dijon 79 relied on a bit of run-off as well.

#18 Dragonfly

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:35

ww, jp, F1Champ
Glad that there are still people like you (and my humble self too) .

#19 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:43

Actually, it´s the very reason I watch racing, because that´s what I want to see, knock ´em down, drag ´em out racing. I really find it hard to get excited by driver X gaining 0.425 of a second on his 2nd pit stop etc. Maybe that´s why I love watching MGP so much. I guess I´m just a good old fashioned country boy at heart. :lol:

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#20 Ricardo F1

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:45

Originally posted by Yellowmc
If that wasn't on the last lap both would be penalised, it was almost as if they thought - "Hold on, he just cut the corner so I'm going to cut the next one regardless of where he is!"

Exactly. It was fun, great to watch, but had that been lap two they'd have been given drive thrus.

#21 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 18:52

Amateur :

#22 f1seb

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 19:12

I love that. Just as you think Massa has made the pass here comes that BMW white nose into the picture, then you think he got him again for good.....and then again the white nose starts sneaking in there. Awesome racing.

#23 Panch

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 19:31

I think everyone wants more like this :clap:

#24 cardin

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 19:48

A few of you would be better off folowing this:

#25 Mauseri

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:06

THat's why tarmac run off areas suck. Track should be track only.

#26 Tigershark

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:07

Originally posted by wingwalker
Yes, Massa won the position by using run off. SO WHAT?

The run-off is not there to blast past a driver defending his position when you can't take the line you wanted to take. Both Kubica and Massa abused the tarmac run-offs in a way that changed the rules of racing in a way that some don't appreciate. Just as I don't like cutting the Monza chicane, I don't like using the tarmac run-off on the outside of a corner to force your way past a driver who is driving a defensive line.

When Schumacher and Hill had their famous fight in Spa 1995, the grass in Les Combes discouraged the two drivers to drive over the line and it took Hill two or three laps to get his attack sorted out, Schumacher ended up on the grass and lost the position. He didn't apply full throttle on the 'super-grip tarmac' and blast past Hill down to Rivage - because he couldn't, he lost the battle and the place. Massa lost the place to Kubica as well, who had the better line into the last corner, but instead of accepting defeat Massa 'adjusted' the track and took the place from Kubica.

Just to show that you don't have to abuse the tarmac to take a position:

#27 imaginesix

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:18

There's a difference between going off track to pass someone and going off track because there's no more room on the track. Neither of them drove off track by choice but once they were there they made the best of the situation, as they should.

#28 Paul Prost

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:25

Some of the ballsiest driving I've seen in a while.

I think Kubica is in the wrong actually.. the first time Massa passes him (or the 2nd) he takes the racing line out of the corner and a wide exit... Kubica could lift and relinquish the position... but instead he takes to the grass.. cuts the corner.. but stays in front of Massa. IMO what he did counts as 'cutting the corner to retain position' and he should have had to have let Mass pass again before having another crack.

I've got no problems with drivers passing other drivers and closing the door on them on corner exits. After all, that's what Alonso did to Heidfeld in France and people are calling it one of the most memorable passes of '07. The other driver (who has been passed) can always lift off and tuck in behind.. its their choice if they want to risk an off-track excursion to keep fighting for position.

I do have problems with drivers moving on other drivers at 300 km/h + on a straight.. and intentional T-boning etc.

#29 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:47

Originally posted by Tigershark

There's way too much tarmac next to the track, both Kubica and Massa were all over the place during this fight, creating wider corners at their own chosing and cutting others. On the other hand it looked nice, and I can't fault the drivers for doing it. This is something the circuits should put a stop to.


:lol:

And ban Villeneuve vs Arnoux as well. They really should moats filled with pirannah fish so that the drivers get properly punished for driving where there is no grip.

#30 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:50

Originally posted by Tigershark


When Schumacher and Hill had their famous fight in Spa 1995, the grass in Les Combes discouraged the two drivers to drive ca.

Just to show that you don't have to abuse the tarmac to take a position:


Awfull examples there. Both Schumacher and Montoya ran off road when fighting for their position.

#31 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:52

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Amateur :


:lol:

Do you still have that picture of you lawnmoving at Snetterton wasn't it?

#32 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:54

Just to compare, the legendary Gilles vs Arnoux duel, without a single chop or line change:



#33 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:58

Here is another "disgusting" overtaking move:

The master at work:



Something that will be remembered long after any one of us here are gone.

#34 Georg_Kuyumji

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:58

Lets not compare that fight to the Villeneuve Arnoux fight because that was on a proper GP Track which had an edge. The Massa / Kubica fight was about cutting corners on a giant car park.

Originally posted by karlth
Here is another "disgusting" overtaking move:

The master at work:



Something that will be remembered long after any one of us here are gone.


Sorry but I dont see anything exciting about the actual pass.

Yes, an overtaking maneuvre on the last lap for the win is awesome, Corkscrew is awesome, CART as a whole was awesome in the mid 90s, but theres nothing special or brilliant about cutting a corner.



#35 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 20:59

Originally posted by Hellenic tifosi
Just to compare, the legendary Gilles vs Arnoux duel, without a single chop or line change:


I counted around 15 traffic violations.

#36 fillern

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:04

Originally posted by karlth
Here is another "disgusting" overtaking move:

The master at work:



Something that will be remembered long after any one of us here are gone.


I became a 120% Zanardi believer that day. He was reckless, fun, "donutting" and plain crazy. I love that guy!

#37 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:06

Originally posted by Georg_Kuyumji
Lets not compare that fight to the Villeneuve Arnoux fight because that was on a proper GP Track which had an edge. The Massa / Kubica fight was about cutting corners on a giant car park.


A bit harsh considering Arnoux took to off roading as well and the conditions and visibility for Massa and Kubica were considerably worse. No driver wants to go off track, all of them were forced to by the opposing driver.

Two great duels both of them.

#38 saudoso

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:12

Originally posted by fillern


I became a 120% Zanardi believer that day. He was reckless, fun, "donutting" and plain crazy. I love that guy!


Zanardi was possessed that year. He had all the guts and all the luck availiable for the whole field.

#39 Georg_Kuyumji

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:15

Originally posted by karlth


A bit harsh considering Arnoux took to off roading as well and the conditions and visibility for Massa and Kubica were considerably worse. No driver wants to go off track, all of them were forced to by the opposing driver.

Two great duels both of them.


Yes during the course of the battle Arnoux was one time off the road. But the battle was right on the edge, while the Kubica Massa fight was about taking several times huge advantage from the cutting.

BUT I'M NOT BLAMING THE DRIVERS, if they can do it they have to do it - I blame modern era Tracks! A Race Track needs to have an edge, it should not be just lines on a giant asphalt desert.

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#40 imaginesix

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:16

Originally posted by karlth
Here is another "disgusting" overtaking move:

The master at work:



Something that will be remembered long after any one of us here are gone.

Now there's an example of an unsporting pass. Zanardi out-braked himself, Herta didn't force him off track in fact he had to take evasive action, and then Zanardi cuts in front of him again on the exit and takes the lead. That's 2 illegal moves in one corner and he gets all the praise in the world for it. Boooo! :down:

And I'm no Herta fan either.

#41 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:32

or, simply herta left the door open when he shouldn't have
nobody can outbrake himself like that coming from so far behind...herta braked pretty early, that is pretty sure...not so smart, either
ok, zanardi had guts....but so did every other champion in every sport.
sport is not something for nice guys.

overtaking implies risks...that's why it's fun. if it doesn't then the other guy is really dumb or your car is a lot quicker.

#42 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:35

Originally posted by imaginesix
Now there's an example of an unsporting pass. Zanardi out-braked himself, Herta didn't force him off track in fact he had to take evasive action, and then Zanardi cuts in front of him again on the exit and takes the lead. That's 2 illegal moves in one corner and he gets all the praise in the world for it. Boooo! :down:

And I'm no Herta fan either.


great bit of racing. Not may drivers would have even thought of that pass let alone tried it. It´s one thing to leave the track at speed, and quite another to keep the car under control when you are on the mables. Gutsy move that won him the race. :clap:

#43 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:40

Originally posted by Georg_Kuyumji


Yes during the course of the battle Arnoux was one time off the road. But the battle was right on the edge, while the Kubica Massa fight was about taking several times huge advantage from the cutting.


When?

1st corner. Massa overtakes Kubica on track.
1st corner, exit. Kubica retakes his position on the inside, again on track.
2nd chicane. Massa dives down the inside of Kubica, they touch and Kubica is forced onto the grass.
2nd chicane, exit. Kubica comes off the grass onto Massa's driving line, forcing the brazilian onto the grass on the other side.
3rd corner. Massa holds the car as both cars barrel down into the 3rd corner side by side. Massa drifts onto Kubica's driving line forcing him off road and onto the slippery concrete grass. Kubica briefly runs on a exit road before sliding over the road infront of Massa.
5th corner. Kubica returns again and attacks on Massa's inside. Massa is forced onto the grass again and onto the service road. Both of them then drag race over the finish line.

I didn't see any extra tarmac just regular service roads. In Kubica's case it made no difference while it possibly saved Massa in the last corner and kept the battle alive.

#44 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:43

Originally posted by karlth


When?

1st corner. Massa overtakes Kubica on track.
1st corner, exit. Kubica retakes his position on the inside, again on track.
2nd chicane. Massa dives down the inside of Kubica, they touch and Kubica is forced onto the grass.
2nd chicane, exit. Kubica comes off the grass onto Massa's driving line, forcing the brazilian onto the grass on the other side.
3rd corner. Massa holds the car as both cars barrel down into the 3rd corner side by side. Massa drifts onto Kubica's driving line forcing him off road and onto the slippery concrete grass. Kubica briefly runs on a exit road before sliding over the road infront of Massa.
5th corner. Kubica returns again and attacks on Massa's inside. Massa is forced onto the grass again and onto the service road. Both of them then drag race over the finish line.

I didn't see any extra tarmac just regular service roads. In Kubica's case it made no difference while it possibly saved Massa in the last corner and kept the battle alive.


And lest we forget, that grass was wet and very slippery.

#45 imaginesix

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:54

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
or, simply herta left the door open when he shouldn't have
nobody can outbrake himself like that coming from so far behind...herta braked pretty early, that is pretty sure...not so smart, either
ok, zanardi had guts....but so did every other champion in every sport.
sport is not something for nice guys.

overtaking implies risks...that's why it's fun. if it doesn't then the other guy is really dumb or your car is a lot quicker.

Zanardi overshot the corner without anybody else's help. That's what I call 'outbraking himself' and it is not a legitimate way of overtaking someone.

#46 imaginesix

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 21:57

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
great bit of racing. Not may drivers would have even thought of that pass let alone tried it. It´s one thing to leave the track at speed, and quite another to keep the car under control when you are on the mables. Gutsy move that won him the race. :clap:

It was a gutsy move and it failed. Instead of acknowledging this Zanardi just rejoined the track in an unsafe manner to cut off Herta and prevent him from taking his position back. That's not great racing it's desperation.

#47 Ricardo F1

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 22:18

I'm with imaginesix, Zanardi should have been penalized.

#48 imaginesix

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 22:21

I wish I could buy you a beer. Oh, I coulda. Damn, opportunity lost.

#49 karlth

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 22:40

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I'm with imaginesix, Zanardi should have been penalized.


The marshalls declared that Zanardi had already passed Herta when he flew over the kerbing.

In hindsight it was certainly a totally illegal move but the stewards were probably caught up in the moment. They had witnessed something truly special, a legendary moment in motorracing history. It was the last lap, of the last race and the pass had come from nowhere. How could they penalize Zanardi for creating something this wonderful!

Bless them for it. :)

#50 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 23:49

It was an awesome display of fairness from Kubica if you ask me. Massa clearly drove him off the road twice in the clip, as he almost did to Alonso at Nurburgring. Combined with his numskullery of an attempt to overtake Hamilton at Sepang, I seriously think Massa is one of the worst wheel to wheel racers in F1.

Great to watch though, even if it was totally dependant on tarmac runoff areas.