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Massa- Kubica at Fuji


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#51 IMHO

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 00:28

Originally posted by karlth


When?

1st corner. Massa overtakes Kubica on track.
1st corner, exit. Kubica retakes his position on the inside, again on track.
2nd chicane. Massa dives down the inside of Kubica, they touch and Kubica is forced onto the grass.
2nd chicane, exit. Kubica comes off the grass onto Massa's driving line, forcing the brazilian onto the grass on the other side.
3rd corner. Massa holds the car as both cars barrel down into the 3rd corner side by side. Massa drifts onto Kubica's driving line forcing him off road and onto the slippery concrete grass. Kubica briefly runs on a exit road before sliding over the road infront of Massa.
5th corner. Kubica returns again and attacks on Massa's inside. Massa is forced onto the grass again and onto the service road. Both of them then drag race over the finish line.

I didn't see any extra tarmac just regular service roads. In Kubica's case it made no difference while it possibly saved Massa in the last corner and kept the battle alive.


That's not grass
That's bricks with grass

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#52 Tigershark

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 00:42

Originally posted by karlth
Awfull examples there. Both Schumacher and Montoya ran off road when fighting for their position.

Really? That's the point. Montoya did run off the track in the hairpin but instead of, like Massa, abusing the fact there was tarmac there he moved in behind Raikkonen and passed him later on during the lap. Schumacher also ran off as he was trying to make a corner that he couldn't - and he had to go for the grass and give up his position to Hill. Unlike Kubica and Massa, who abused the fact that there was no grass in Fuji and simply cut the corner(s) without giving up their position.

#53 saudoso

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:17

Originally posted by Tigershark

Really? That's the point. Montoya did run off the track in the hairpin but instead of, like Massa, abusing the fact there was tarmac there he moved in behind Raikkonen and passed him later on during the lap. Schumacher also ran off as he was trying to make a corner that he couldn't - and he had to go for the grass and give up his position to Hill. Unlike Kubica and Massa, who abused the fact that there was no grass in Fuji and simply cut the corner(s) without giving up their position.


I'd say you'd better stick with slot car racing.

#54 saudoso

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:18

Originally posted by IMHO


That's not grass
That's bricks with grass


And it's slippery.

#55 saudoso

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:19

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
It was an awesome display of fairness from Kubica if you ask me. Massa clearly drove him off the road twice in the clip, as he almost did to Alonso at Nurburgring. Combined with his numskullery of an attempt to overtake Hamilton at Sepang, I seriously think Massa is one of the worst wheel to wheel racers in F1.

Great to watch though, even if it was totally dependant on tarmac runoff areas.


FM is a bastard.

#56 saudoso

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:19

Bunch of sissies :eek:

#57 karlth

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:25

Originally posted by IMHO


That's not grass
That's bricks with grass


It is grass. In one instance as listed he runs over concrete grass, i.e. bricks with grass. Very slippery.

#58 karlth

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 01:30

Originally posted by Tigershark
Unlike Kubica and Massa, who abused the fact that there was no grass in Fuji and simply cut the corner(s) without giving up their position.


Why do you say there is no grass at Fuji circuit?

Have you watched the video?

#59 SoBizarre

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 08:55


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#60 wingwalker

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 09:42

F1 fans want less on track action. in other news, apocalypse is approaching.

#61 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 09:49

That's not racing though. That was rental gokart level 'overtaking'. The only clean overtake in the video is when Massa goes under Kubica at the beginning of the clip in the left hander. After that Kubica chops him on the straight and from then on it's an amateur purse swinging match.

#62 WACKO

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 09:52

A miracle that both made it to the finish. Never seen drivers shove each other off track over and over like this. Aside from the racing aspect, seeing it from onboard cam makes it even a bit more impressive.

#63 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:16

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
That's not racing though. That was rental gokart level 'overtaking'. The only clean overtake in the video is when Massa goes under Kubica at the beginning of the clip in the left hander. After that Kubica chops him on the straight and from then on it's an amateur purse swinging match.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#64 giacomo

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:22

So-called race fans are complaining about some on-track action. Unbelievable.

It seems modern F1 has the fans it deserves for the sterile show and the disgusting politics.

#65 karlth

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:22

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
That's not racing though. That was rental gokart level 'overtaking'. The only clean overtake in the video is when Massa goes under Kubica at the beginning of the clip in the left hander. After that Kubica chops him on the straight and from then on it's an amateur purse swinging match.


I haven't heard that before.

Two Formula 1 drivers frantically racing on the last lap of the race in torrential conditions is "an amateur purse swinging match."

Then again my guess is that you are just trolling.

#66 karlth

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:23

Originally posted by giacomo
So-called race fans are complaining about some on-track action. Unbelievable.


Isn't it.

#67 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 10:29

Originally posted by karlth


I haven't heard that before.

Two Formula 1 drivers frantically racing on the last lap of the race in torrential conditions is "an amateur purse swinging match."

Then again my guess is that you are just trolling.


What of several examples of straightlining corners did you miss?

#68 prty

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:10

I agree with Ross Stonefeld in that, for me that wasn't good racing. I liked a lot more Kovalainen vs Raikkonen in Nurburgring, for example.

#69 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:14

Originally posted by prty
I agree with Ross Stonefeld in that, for me that wasn't good racing. I liked a lot more Kovalainen vs Raikkonen in Nurburgring, for example.


Look, it must have been great racing. It even got my wife´s attention for heavens sake. And believe me, where F1 is concerned, I thought that was impossible :up:

#70 prty

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:18

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Look, it must have been great racing. It even got my wife´s attention for heavens sake. And believe me, where F1 is concerned, I thought that was impossible :up:


It was exciting to see, but messy racing IMO.

#71 Risil

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:22

Fantastic battle. Now let us never, ever speak of it again. :)

#72 karlth

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 11:49

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


What of several examples of straightlining corners did you miss?


All of them obviously.

This is straightlining a chicane:

Posted Image

While Massa and Kubica are forcing each other off the track and onto the grass. Always losing pace from it, apart from possibly Massa's final run.

It was a great battle.

#73 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:13

Yeah, and forcing other guys off the road isn't racing. It's ramming where the other guy gets out of the way in time.

#74 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:18

some should start watching karting if they are complaining these moves were hard

#75 noikeee

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:32

It was a very entertaining battle, refreshing to see, but both drivers weren't fair to each other. I preferred when the defending was "i'm gonna try to block you putting side-by-side with myself, but once you get side-by-side i'm gonna be fair and give you just enough space for you not to leave the road". Nowadays it is more like "I'm gonna let you get side-by-side, and then I'm gonna push you off the track. Move to the run-off area or we crash".

#76 HUY

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:39

Originally posted by karlth
Here is another "disgusting" overtaking move:

The master at work:



Something that will be remembered long after any one of us here are gone.


I think Zanardi should have been penalised for that move, as he cut the corner. Any honest driver would have lifted to let the other driver through once again.

#77 karlth

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:41

Originally posted by paranoik0
It was a very entertaining battle, refreshing to see, but both drivers weren't fair to each other.


Which is probably why they congratulated each other after the race?

#78 noikeee

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 12:51

Originally posted by karlth


Which is probably why they congratulated each other after the race?


Well, both obviously have a different view on what they think it's "fair". It's their personal problem if they end up crashing at another race due to these ethics, so if the drivers are ok with it, it's ok. I wouldn't race like that if I was there, but then again they're world class professional racing drivers, and I'm a guy who only drove a kart once and sucks at GP4.

Zanardi's move seemed better to me, although extremely risky as he obviously braked way way later than usual. I don't know what were the rules on cutting that corner, which might've been illegal, but the room he gave to Herta was fair. Would've ended in tears had Herta didn't give up from making the corner at the correct line as Zanardi went kamikaze-like past, but that's racing. In overtaking you're supposed to impede the other guy from using the correct line. You're not supposed to impede the other guy from making the corner without going to the run-off area. That's the difference.

#79 saudoso

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 14:22

Direct fight for positions on track should be banned.

Michael & Ross established the next step in car racing, the perfect strategy and execution of fast laps prior to the pit stops. No confrontation, only the rewards to the most competent.

It's really the way to go. Passing on track is politically incorrect, is unethical and a bad example for kids.

Then we should look forward to convert racing into regularity raids. This would also ban the unethical behaviour of speeding, a really really bad example.

;)

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#80 imaginesix

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 03:04

Originally posted by paranoik0
It was a very entertaining battle, refreshing to see, but both drivers weren't fair to each other. I preferred when the defending was "i'm gonna try to block you putting side-by-side with myself, but once you get side-by-side i'm gonna be fair and give you just enough space for you not to leave the road". Nowadays it is more like "I'm gonna let you get side-by-side, and then I'm gonna push you off the track. Move to the run-off area or we crash".

I agree, but I have to say that with only a few minor exceptions, this year has seen much better racing in terms of sportsmanship when racing side-by-side than in the past. I blame Michael for the past and credit Massa/Raikkonen/Alonso/Hamilton for clean, fair racing this year. The Fuji race was an exception simply because of the weather conditions. It's so much easier to over-drive the car in the wet, and for that reason I don't fault Massa or Kubica too much for cutting each other off some times, as Ross does. Though he's right, that's not good clean racing.

#81 F1Champion

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 14:28

Originally posted by imaginesix
There's a difference between going off track to pass someone and going off track because there's no more room on the track. Neither of them drove off track by choice but once they were there they made the best of the situation, as they should.


:up:

#82 thiscocks

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 11:24

Originally posted by imaginesix
I agree, but I have to say that with only a few minor exceptions, this year has seen much better racing in terms of sportsmanship when racing side-by-side than in the past. I blame Michael for the past and credit Massa/Raikkonen/Alonso/Hamilton for clean, fair racing this year. The Fuji race was an exception simply because of the weather conditions. It's so much easier to over-drive the car in the wet, and for that reason I don't fault Massa or Kubica too much for cutting each other off some times, as Ross does. Though he's right, that's not good clean racing.



:up:

Heres to more of the same in '08........

#83 pingu666

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 15:37

dirty fun there :lol:
best in the modern era, montoya, and rubens at silverstone, he just was on another level there :cool:



and one of some good defensive driving :lol:

#84 speedmaster

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 14:43

Originally posted by IMHO
Looked nice?
Looked pathetic is more like it.


It seems that Montezemolo thinks differently.... million time differently but hey, what the heck... you didn't like it so he should be fired and imolated right?

You guys surprise me more and more each day

:p

#85 idrumond

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 17:32

The drivers get out of their cars and greet each other, happy to have experienced some great fellings and giving us, the racing fans, moments we'll remember and talk about for decades.

Even so, people complain about it. I was watching that race until 3:00 AM with my father, and we stayed up about 1:30 hrs after talking about it.

Massa and Kubica did great, that's it.

#86 Mauseri

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 23:40

I'm happy this kind of crap racing wont happen this year. It's simply not possible to go off track like that without TC :up:

#87 jeremy durward

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 13:55

while i can't fault massa for flooring it out of the last corner and gaining an advantage... mainly because i know i would too. its not good racing. yes its exciting to watch, something sorely needed these days. but it was not good racing throughout, especially massa on that last turn. having said all that i love a bit of rough and tumble racing.

#88 Gemini

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 14:16

Originally posted by micra_k10
I'm happy this kind of crap racing wont happen this year. It's simply not possible to go off track like that without TC :up:


Like we had it every second race in our lifes, right?

Massa and Kubica provided some entertainment in last lap thanks to unusual conditions, track layout and some competitive spirit from both of them

Damned, why didn't they follow one another in classis procession like we have in other 99 race out of 100.

Sorry to tell you, but IT IS possible to go off track like that w/o TC. And still run-off asphalt will have more grip if it was specifically designed to be like that :wave:

#89 Mauseri

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 20:25

Originally posted by Gemini
Damned, why didn't they follow one another in classis procession like we have in other 99 race out of 100.

It would have looked better if they both had stayed on track and done some beautiful racing changing positions technically and tactically.

Or even better, wheel to wheel, but Massa hasnt convinced me with that ability. He usually makes contact when he tries to race.

About Kubica I dont know.

#90 thuGG

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 22:43

If they have stayed on track, there wouldn't be that kind of action, simple.

#91 brakedistance

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 00:22

Can't access the video any more because f*****g Bernie has decided to stuff the fans once again. I'm sure there must be a site where I can pay an extortionate amount to watch it

#92 former champ

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 04:28

Originally posted by micra_k10
I'm happy this kind of crap racing wont happen this year. It's simply not possible to go off track like that without TC :up:


:lol:

yeah, good one.

#93 cek

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 16:58

Half of fight is made out of the track

#94 molive

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 01:41

Originally posted by brakedistance
Can't access the video any more because f*****g Bernie has decided to stuff the fans once again. I'm sure there must be a site where I can pay an extortionate amount to watch it


on again

As for this fight, Massa was simply pissed off, and would not take any BS from Kubica, who did his best (a la Bernoldi) to stay ahead. Great stuff.

#95 brakedistance

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 02:39

Many thanks

This is great racing... I don't care about ridiculous arguments about run off areas, this is what we need to see

#96 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 07:04

I think some have been lulled by watching too much NASCAR.

Man, that's exactly what I want to see.

Yeah, that's on the border - literally.

"Yes".


That's the point, is it not?

What may appear reckless to some may appear to be "a fantastic display of *world class* driving skills" to others.

I wanted to see Dennis Rodman leap out of bounds to try to save the ball. I wanted to see Jeremy McGrath use a hay bale to ricochet into the lead. It's why I watch.

There's a difference, and I'm sick of everything in the 21st century being removed from common sense and left to black and white binary conclusions. Maybe it's not like that....

There's a difference between what Massa and Kubica was doing, and say Another Driver Who Shall Remain Nameless doing kamikaze moves, or some of the "racing" I see in NASCAR involving literally bump-pushing other cars off the track. It was risky, but not necessarily anymore than anything else they routinely do on track. If it had been, I'm sure we'd have heard both drivers complaining about the other, and it's not like anyone is now planning on running knobby tires so they can make passes off-track.

#97 ferrarifanman

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 01:27

Originally posted by micra_k10

It would have looked better if they both had stayed on track and done some beautiful racing changing positions technically and tactically.

Or even better, wheel to wheel, but Massa hasnt convinced me with that ability. He usually makes contact when he tries to race.

About Kubica I dont know.


Forbid that Kubica and Massa actually want to race. Massa usually makes contact when he is in a race? Proof please..

This kind of racing is what a true F1 fan wants to see... two highly competitive talented, highly skilled drivers frantically dicing for that extra point after a hour of tough racing.

People want F1 sterilized so much now. I can't believe people really believe Massa (or Kubica) should have been punished for this. You can't remove competition from F1 drivers racing battles like these happen. It's thrilling to watch and the smarter one wins.

Kubica should have given Massa some room on the exit of that corner, but just enough room for him to catch the white line or the kerb. That would have slowed Massa down or spun him out. Instead he shut the door and Massa got a fair advantage of the run off instead. If you can take it flat why not take it flat? eh?

People just want races decided by a politican these days... sad to see F1 fans that don't want to see racing!

Matt