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The third B.R.M (Bruce Johnstone)


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 16:34

Deep in my memory banks is the fact that the B.R.M that Bruce Johnstone drove at the 1962 Oulton Park Gold Cup had a white nose.

If my memory is correct, can anyone tell me if the car he drove later at the South African Grand Prix (apparently a different chassis) had any distinguishing colours on it?

And before anyone leaps upon me, I HAVE searched but cannot find any references. :)

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#2 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 16:53

mail me or give me your mail and you will get......

#3 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 17:09

Pee Emmed, Bjorn!

#4 Alan Cox

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 17:20

I haven't checked, Barry, but I recall that the issue of Motor Sport which reported the '62 Gold Cup carried a photo of Johnstone in the centre spread of B&W photos which showed it with a white nose. In DCN's B.R.M. vol 2, there is also a photo of the car with a white noseband à la Tony Marsh. It was the car which was damaged at the German GP when NGH ran over a camera.

At Oulton, it was chassis 5785, while at East London it was 571. DCN doesn't refer to any unusual livery at the SA GP, whereas he does at Oulton Park.

#5 Hieronymus

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 17:43

No white nose band, just mono-coloured at SAGP.

#6 Pablo Vignone

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 17:47

I was recently re-reading the entertaining Tony Rudd book, "It was fun" IIRC, and he wrote that was Sir Alfred Owen that insisted to have Johnstone in the team for that final 1962 GP. Rudd gave the OK providing that Johnstone had his own mechanics and placed the car in the pits far from the B.R.M. works team. At least, that¡s what my memory tell me now...

#7 Rob Ryder

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 19:12

Hope this helps Barry...

Posted Image
(Picked up on the internet circa 2003 : copyright unknown : will remove if requested)

Rob

#8 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 20:01

Thanks, Rob. Yes, that's exactly as the old memory recalled it, and only 45 years ago! Begs the question, why? It DOES resemble the Tony Marsh nose colour design, doesn't it?

And thanks too to Bjørn for the information supplied; definitely plain green at East London.

I see some design on the helmet in Rob's picture......

#9 Hieronymus

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 20:19

Plain green? Dark green, I presume. Only have a b/w photo, so can't judge.

#10 Alan Cox

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 20:22

It wouldn't be a nosecone originally destined for Tony Marsh, would it? He did. after all, cancel his order for the car didn't he? One might assume that the "works" top body section was damaged at the 'Ring.

#11 Barry Boor

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 23:01

Interesting theory, Alan, but Tony's cars were an altogether different shade of green and I couldn't imagine the works bothering to paint the nose knowing that he would be painting the rest of it.

#12 Hieronymus

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 08:24

Posted Image

Johnstone & BRM at the 1962 SAGP

#13 Barry Boor

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 08:31

Ah! So it was THAT car! Thanks, H. :up:

#14 MrMacca

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 08:51

Beaten to the post........I checked the Youtube video and could see at the start it was a '61 car...........

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#15 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:11

Tony Rudd was very much opposed to running a car AT ALL for Bruce Johnstone, who really ended up with the rough end of the stick. The young man also failed to endear himself to the Bourne mafia due to his habit of charging around Lincolnshire in a Ford Anglia with his crash helmet and driving gloves on the rear parcels shelf. Peter Berthon and Raymond Mays had brought him to Bourne, but there was no job for him to do there. Ultimately he was provided with a car for the Oulton Park Gold Cup "as long as he didn't bother the team".

Its nose band was a different design from that used on Tony Marsh's cars. Tony's nose band swept back to a point on top of the nose panel.

I'd have thought that due to Bruce's South African connections orange would indeed have been an apporpriate colour - as later adopted by BRM due to orange being the house colour of the owning Rubery Owen group. But I have seen no evidence that the band on Bruce's car at Oulton was other than white.

Ernest Owen - Sir Alfred Owen's younger brother - developed a real bee in his bonnet about BRM using the company house colour, and he wanted their drab green replaced by Rubery Owen's overall orange.

Tony Rudd managed to stave him off by explaining that orange was the Dutch national racing livery. Ernest was dubious, concluding that Rudd was trying to pull a fast one. Ultimately Tony managed to convince him that was why De Beaufort's Porsche was orange. A compromise was then reached with the disappointed Ernest, whereby the cars remained green but adopted the dayglo orange nose bands, and the mechanics wore bright orange overalls (instead of usually grubby oil-soaked 'white' or blue as previously).

DCN

#16 Stephen W

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:32

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Tony Rudd was very much opposed to running a car AT ALL for Bruce Johnstone, who really ended up with the rough end of the stick. The young man also failed to endear himself to the Bourne mafia due to his habit of charging around Lincolnshire in a Ford Anglia with his crash helmet and driving gloves on the rear parcels shelf. Peter Berthon and Raymond Mays had brought him to Bourne, but there was no job for him to do there. Ultimately he was provided with a car for the Oulton Park Gold Cup "as long as he didn't bother the team".

Its nose band was a different design from that used on Tony Marsh's cars. Tony's nose band swept back to a point on top of the nose panel.

I'd have thought that due to Bruce's South African connections orange would indeed have been an apporpriate colour - as later adopted by BRM due to orange being the house colour of the owning Rubery Owen group. But I have seen no evidence that the band on Bruce's car at Oulton was other than white.

Ernest Owen - Sir Alfred Owen's younger brother - developed a real bee in his bonnet about BRM using the company house colour, and he wanted their drab green replaced by Rubery Owen's overall orange.

Tony Rudd managed to stave him off by explaining that orange was the Dutch national racing livery. Ernest was dubious, concluding that Rudd was trying to pull a fast one. Ultimately Tony managed to convince him that was why De Beaufort's Porsche was orange. A compromise was then reached with the disappointed Ernest, whereby the cars remained green but adopted the dayglo orange nose bands, and the mechanics wore bright orange overalls (instead of usually grubby oil-soaked 'white' or blue as previously).

DCN


Possibly the 'white nose band' was applied to differentiate it from the 'works' cars as Tony Rudd was so opposed to Johnstone driving for them?

#17 Alan Cox

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:40

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Its nose band was a different design from that used on Tony Marsh's cars. Tony's nose band swept back to a point on top of the nose panel.



In Vol 2 of your book, Doug, the photo on page 183 shows that the band swept back to a central point on the nose panel, too.

Hieronymus, that's the first photo I've ever seen of Johnstone in the SA GP. Thank you for that.

#18 Barry Boor

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:54

Alan, you took the worms right out of my mound!

#19 Hieronymus

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 10:59

Seems then that Bruce got a raw deal from BRM. Wonder how much BRM that car really was, apart from the bodywork? Underneath probably pirated parts and most certainly some exotic juice in the fuel tank.

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#20 Doug Nye

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 21:41

Thirty-six hours on a plane really stuffs you up... :drunk: :stoned: Tony Marsh's white nose flash was rather larger, and the nose intake on his early P57 lacked the two vertical bars of Bruce's P578. ZZzzzzzzzz...

DCN

#21 Barry Boor

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 17:04

Not the Bruce Johnstone one this time.... but I have just noticed that there was an entry for a third works B.R.M at the 1958 British Grand Prix, for none other than Masten Gregory.

It never happened but I wonder what was the story behind it and why did Masten not get a ride?

Someone with B.R.M Volume 1 (or 2) please step forward.

#22 Tim Murray

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 17:31

Masten was offered the drive because the usual choice, Flockhart, had been injured in a crash at Rouen caused by an ambulance driving the wrong way round the track, with no warning flags (!). Masten then damaged himself baling out of the Ecosse Lister at Becketts on the Thursday of the GP weekend, and was thus unable to drive the BRM.

(source: DCN Vol 1)

#23 Barry Boor

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 18:06

Many thanks, Tim. :up:

#24 Gabrci

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:18

Mr. Johnstone says the following about his time with BRM and why he was treated badly:

"
1. I was employed by Berthon & Mays
2. I arrived at BRM in 1962 by when they had been removed.
3. Budget cut, Tony Rudd appointed manager
4. Hill was major contender for World Championship
5. Ginther crashed a few cars!
6. Politically I was nieve, BP had supported me, BRM were Shell contracted
7. Thank Heavens for Ian Walker
Short story."

Could someone please tell me what nieve means?

#25 Sharman

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:35

presumably the same as naive or naif

#26 Doug Nye

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 13:35

Bruce arrived in Britain with promises from Peter Bethon ringing in his ears, onLy to find PB gone, RM kenneled, and Tony Rudd/Graham Hill very much in day to day control. Graham absolutely vetoed running a third car. Richie had his hands full recovering from injury and then proving his own worth. Johnstone's unproven services were not required and he spent much of his time as a delivery driver and errand boy.

DCN