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1962-1983: the years of fast racing 'mopeds'!


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#1201 50cc racer

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:51

There´s something about multi- cylindered engines - especially 50cc ones :up:


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#1202 T54

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 03:21

OK, tell us, what it that thing? The tank looks to be from a Peripoli or a Paloma. The expansion chambers looked like large enough for a model airplane engine, but the tires look large enough to fit on a 125cc... :)

#1203 50cc racer

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Posted 22 August 2010 - 06:25

OK, tell us, what it that thing? The tank looks to be from a Peripoli or a Paloma. The expansion chambers looked like large enough for a model airplane engine, but the tires look large enough to fit on a 125cc... :)


Hi T54

I believe that Duncan Mitchell who creatod this wonder in 1963, did the frame too? Tank is glass- fibre, but the marvel 4 cylinder engine has cast heads, barrels, and crankcases, a bolted on five speed trans, controlled by a dry clutch.
12cc cyliders times four gives 48cc in total fed by four 10mm Amal carbs.
5hp @ 7000rpm

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As it looks now in the Sammy Miller museum:

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#1204 Undredseesee

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 08:08

The earlydays of 50cc racing are fascinating. I remember reading somewhere that Itom riders didn't use the front brake 'and those that did tended to fall off'. (!) Why was that?
Also, I notice that many of the early Itom racers, including the factory ones, had swingarm-mounted footrests with the pegs located almost back to the wheel spindle. Surely that would result in the riders feet pointing downwards increasing the chance of them coming into contact with the ground? And looking at old photographs, most of these early machines appear to have very little trail; but I guess we need to remember that they were still very close to their moped heritage.

#1205 HEMEYLA

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 15:17

Pierre Kemperman and his Itom at Rockanje 1960.

With frame mounted footrests, and i'm sure he used his frontbrake.  ;)

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#1206 Undredseesee

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 17:45

Pierre Kemperman and his Itom at Rockanje 1960.

With frame mounted footrests, and i'm sure he used his frontbrake. ;)

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Thank you, Hemeyla. Good stuff, these old photographs. Keep 'em coming!

#1207 HEMEYLA

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 18:22

Also Rockanje 1960, Jack Wyers on NSU.

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#1208 HEMEYLA

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 18:39

And more Rockanje 1960, the one and only Jan Thiel of Jamathi, Piovaticci, Bultaco, Garelli, Aprilia and more fame.

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Edited by HEMEYLA, 08 September 2010 - 18:44.


#1209 50cc racer

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 16:36

Just another CR110?

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#1210 Herr Wankel

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 17:13

Just another CR110?

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Bit of a scruff isn't it? SS50 or S90 motor in it.Road reg'd!
HW


#1211 exclubracer

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 18:41

Bit of a scruff isn't it? SS50 or S90 motor in it.Road reg'd!
HW


Vraiment, une tres bonne reponse Monsieur HW. :cat:

#1212 Paul Collins

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Posted 11 September 2010 - 21:28

Doesnt look like crowd safety was very high on the agenda at Rockanje!!!

This thread reminds me of my introduction to competition, in the seventies a gang of us 16 year olds swept and marked out a half mile circuit on a disused WW2 aerodrome near to our local village and started having impromptu 50cc races on those long hot summer evenings with our Garelli's, Malaguti's, SS50's & FS1E's

In time some lads from other surrounding villages started joining in and eventually we had regular grids of 10-15, tuning started to creep in and the whole thing got quite serious, I even saw my first pair of knee sliders there, made from two lumps of old carpet and some duct tape.

The action was frantic and luckily one of the older lads used to come up in his car, which was used to convey the unfortunate to hospital on more than one occasion.

We had some great times that summer and the police left us alone as the surrounding villages had all fallen silent of motorbikes and they had no troublesome teenagers outside the chippy anymore as we were all up on the aerodrome every night.

I went on to do it for real later but always maintain that I learnt how to scratch and conduct combat at close quarters on that airfield :)

#1213 50cc racer

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 15:32

Just wanted to share this:

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The intense moment waiting for the starters flag - when and where?



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#1214 exclubracer

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 15:38

Just wanted to share this:

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The intense moment waiting for the starters flag - when and where?



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Assen, '62?


#1215 roadshop

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 16:17

Assen, '62?



My guess would be 66

#1216 HEMEYLA

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 16:42

My guess would be 66


:clap:

Luigi Taveri's fastest lap lasted untill 1972 when Angel Nieto was just a little faster.

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Edited by HEMEYLA, 25 September 2010 - 17:01.


#1217 50cc racer

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 19:42

Ton, You are spoiling us rotten, with those thorough answers - thanks!

Who drove this hybrid:

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#1218 Rennmax

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 19:53

Ton, You are spoiling us rotten, with those thorough answers - thanks!

Who drove this hybrid:

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Hans Georg Anscheidt I guess, it's a 125 MZ engine ?

Edited by Rennmax, 27 September 2010 - 19:58.


#1219 HEMEYLA

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 23:45

Monza GP 125cc 1965 ...... MZ-Kreidler....... click

Edited by HEMEYLA, 27 September 2010 - 23:47.


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#1220 50cc racer

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 05:22

Yes, Anscheidt´s MZ/ Kreidler.

It was listed as weighing 70kgs - was that light for a two- stroke single 125 racer at the time?



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#1221 Rennmax

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:00

Anyone knows how Hans Georg got hold of the MZ engine ?

#1222 Kriedlerman

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 20:55

Third helmet from left is Doug Wightman on a Van Veen Kreidler .. 4th helmet from left is Quentin Slater on an ex works Suzuki frame(d Minarelli) (engine out of an AJW) that Alan Wightman had lent him for the season .. the only reliable bike he ever rode.

Greg Lawton did not materialize until 1981 out of a lengthy retirement to ride a Jamathi framed Minarelli .. we collided at devil's elbow at Llandow in a tight race when the front tire of my Kriedler started to break away and I panicked. Sorry Greg .. my knee still hurts.

Other characters from that time include the Skelton brothers, Martin Taylor, Roger Simpkin, Terry Keane's friend (don't remember his name but I bought an ex Euro GP Kreidler with a sheared layshaft from him) Reg Dalton (and Tony ??), Roger Lee, Dave Brierly, Michael Marmon and of course Terry Keane, Mike Cooke (and his mechanic Ron Gardener of Gardener carburator fame) and Ron Ponti..

As for me .. after 50's had been and gone, I moved on to the Steve Wicks Yamaha frame #001 that had previously broken Doug Wightman's collarbone (twice I think) and I sorted it by honing a taper into the bore .. it badly needed the rear shocks sorting out but was a nice bike. Without an ounce of shame, I sold the bike to Jim Fruin. I subsequently saw the bike offered at auction with some highly speculative provenance (no reflection on Jim). I have a few pictures floating around, including pit shots of the Wicks #001, if anyone is interested.

My racing career ended in Michigan on turn #4 of Grattan raceway when my wicked Honda 125 shot me highside. I was to have gone to the Manx the following year, an unrealized ambition of mine .. now I have a humeral rod that excites immigration officials and a paunch.



I can help out with a couple of names. Terry's regular travelling companions were Bruce Brady riding his Kriedler, & also Keith Barker-Platt on a Derbi, all from the London area. Could the Tony that you are thinking about be Tony Flinton from Scarborough. I saw him still riding on a 125 at Olivers Mount last year. Personally I sold my 5 speed Kriedler to Mike Cooke at the end of 1978 season & rode one of his 6 speeders in 1980 that he had brought in from Holland, which took nearly all season to sort out the electrical gremlins

#1223 50cc racer

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 20:03

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Was this bike also from the hand of Steve Wicks ? This time Suzuki powered?



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#1224 Herr Wankel

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 20:54

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Was this bike also from the hand of Steve Wicks ? This time Suzuki powered?



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Could it be originally Dave Brierley's machine?
HW


#1225 quentinslater

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:08

Hello Guys,
Its definitely Hughie McIvor from Stalybridge,and he's an ulsterman originally,hence the logos.I know its him as I also raced a CR110 against him at Darley Moor.He was the last person to race a CR in the UK at least.The Woolley bike mentioned could be the Woolley-Bone special (Andy Bone Notts) Loosely based on an Itom but low and long not unlike the Garelli ridden by Stuart Aspin and George Ashton.George it was who rode the W-B special.
The Herr


The Bone Itom was a gem .. I owned it, and rode it, for a couple of years. I knew it as 'The Kettle', when I bought it from Doug Skelton .. apparently it had been ridden by Bill Ivey, at some point .. I believe that it's correct nickname was 'The Jambutty', after Jamathi. Water cooled, by convection, six speed .. spine frame .. it was fast ! Almost had enough mustard to stay with untuned kit Kreidlers .. it was quite clapped out when I sold it to Ron Ponti, who restored it. I spoke with Ron a year or two ago, who told me that the bike is in a museum in the Southern USA .. The Barber, I seem to recall.

#1226 quentinslater

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:26

I can help out with a couple of names. Terry's regular travelling companions were Bruce Brady riding his Kriedler, & also Keith Barker-Platt on a Derbi, all from the London area. Could the Tony that you are thinking about be Tony Flinton from Scarborough. I saw him still riding on a 125 at Olivers Mount last year. Personally I sold my 5 speed Kriedler to Mike Cooke at the end of 1978 season & rode one of his 6 speeders in 1980 that he had brought in from Holland, which took nearly all season to sort out the electrical gremlins


It was Keith Barker-Platt .. no question in my mind. I found out about the Kreidler when Doug Wightman and I went over to Terry's house to pick up the Derbi .. I recall that it was the Meurs Motors special .. Derbi bottom end and chassis with a Kreidler barrel .. Fontana brake .. fast as all getout .. There is a similar Derbi in the permanent collection at the Gugenheim, I think. The Kreidler I bought from Keith was a 6 speed kit bike that I reframed and rode for a year .. what I really wanted was a Van Veen but couldn't afford one ..

Tony Flinton .. could be :wave:

#1227 50cc racer

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 17:30

The Bone Itom was a gem .. I owned it, and rode it, for a couple of years. I knew it as 'The Kettle', when I bought it from Doug Skelton .. apparently it had been ridden by Bill Ivey, at some point .. I believe that it's correct nickname was 'The Jambutty', after Jamathi. Water cooled, by convection, six speed .. spine frame .. it was fast ! Almost had enough mustard to stay with untuned kit Kreidlers .. it was quite clapped out when I sold it to Ron Ponti, who restored it. I spoke with Ron a year or two ago, who told me that the bike is in a museum in the Southern USA .. The Barber, I seem to recall.


Very interesting this W-B Itom, could it be you got some pictures?

I find these much modified motors inspiring, and wanted to try it out myself. Following pictures shows how I go about replacing 4 speeds with six:

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6 speed trans from motocross engine cut out and merged with 4 speed housings.
Clutch cover will be widened to suit.
Maybe it will work - had to try! :)



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#1228 50cc racer

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 19:43

Wonder who made the very first watercooled 50cc racebike?

How early did you see one?

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#1229 kreidlergp

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:07

50cc at Darleymoor - but who and when ?
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Who is rider of the bike 74 ? and what year?

#1230 50cc racer

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 19:23

Who, where and when?

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#1231 fil2.8

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 20:09

Who, where and when?

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Angel Nieto , in a paddock somewhere , :confused: about 1969 :up:

When he went from ' pudding basin ' to full face , might be a year or so out

Edited by fil2.8, 06 November 2010 - 20:10.


#1232 roadshop

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 20:24

Angel Nieto , in a paddock somewhere , :confused: about 1969 :up:

When he went from ' pudding basin ' to full face , might be a year or so out



I don´t think he used a full face until 71.

#1233 HEMEYLA

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:25

Nieto used his 'full face' helmet the first time at the Hockenheim 125ccm GP 1971.

On the 50ccm racer he used his 'pudding basin', first race 'full face' at the Imola 50ccm GP 1972.

#1234 50cc racer

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 20:41

Nieto used his 'full face' helmet the first time at the Hockenheim 125ccm GP 1971.

On the 50ccm racer he used his 'pudding basin', first race 'full face' at the Imola 50ccm GP 1972.


The actual photo shows Nieto decorating his new helmet (with eyebrows) in the pits of Assen, 1971 :up:

I received a good question the other day:
How many 50cc GP Suzukis are left in the world?

Do anyone here know the whereabouts of the RM and RK racebikes?



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#1235 roadshop

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 22:52

The actual photo shows Nieto decorating his new helmet (with eyebrows) in the pits of Assen, 1971 :up:

I received a good question the other day:
How many 50cc GP Suzukis are left in the world?

Do anyone here know the whereabouts of the RM and RK racebikes?

Nick leeflang owns one of the twins, I dont know about of any others.


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#1236 billbomann

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 22:59

Angel Nieto rode the Isle of Man twice. First in 1968 when he retired on the first lap of the 50cc TT, he returned for a celebration lap at TT2010.

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#1237 HEMEYLA

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:49

The Suzuki 50cc twin Nick Leeflang owns is a RK67, a lot of used parts came from the Waterlooplein flea market in Amsterdam, the European race department in Badhoevedorp had to destroy these used parts but many were sold in good condition for 'old iron' price by the responsible Suzuki 'destructor'. So around 1970 the bike was complete but without a engine. 25 years later he could buy a spare engine from Anscheidt.

Hans-Georg Anscheidt had/has ? a RK67, and much more 50 & 125 Suzuki's in the good old days.

Lexmond museum (closed) had/has ? a RM64 and a RK66/67 engine.

Suzuki ownes one RK.., a privat collector in Japan has one and another should be in Spain, so a total of 5 are still around.

RM's are less, one RM62 in Japan and two RM64's 'somewhere' ?

Edited by HEMEYLA, 09 November 2010 - 10:31.


#1238 50cc racer

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Posted 11 November 2010 - 16:47

The Suzuki 50cc twin Nick Leeflang owns is a RK67, a lot of used parts came from the Waterlooplein flea market in Amsterdam, the European race department in Badhoevedorp had to destroy these used parts but many were sold in good condition for 'old iron' price by the responsible Suzuki 'destructor'. So around 1970 the bike was complete but without a engine. 25 years later he could buy a spare engine from Anscheidt.

Hans-Georg Anscheidt had/has ? a RK67, and much more 50 & 125 Suzuki's in the good old days.

Lexmond museum (closed) had/has ? a RM64 and a RK66/67 engine.

Suzuki ownes one RK.., a privat collector in Japan has one and another should be in Spain, so a total of 5 are still around.

RM's are less, one RM62 in Japan and two RM64's 'somewhere' ?


The Hans Georg Anscheidt RK67 (also raced in 68), seems to have a larger fuel tank?
Mitsuo Kawai of Japan has a RK67.
I got a picture of the Suzuki Company RK67 before getting overhauled:

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Its the one Ito rode in Japan 1967.

There is supposed to be one more in Japan.

Question is, what happened to the RK used in American TV commercials?
One theory goes like this: After some years in US, the bike was sold of to a New Zeelander named Hugh Anderson.
Late eighties a Dutchman bought this bike, only to sell it of to a Japanese who made him an offer he could not refuse.

And then there is the one in Spain?



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Edited by 50cc racer, 11 November 2010 - 17:47.


#1239 Minarelliman

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 15:12

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Was this bike also from the hand of Steve Wicks ? This time Suzuki powered?



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This is my old 'bike. I bought it from Bob Strong who built it. He converted the Suzuki engine to water cooled, made his own disc valve and cast his own rear hub to fit a hydraulic brake system. He told me at the time that Steve Wicks made the frame for him. The front brake was a cable operated disc. He originally ran the 'bike with drum brakes. Initially the "petrol tank" was a dummy and the fuel was in a compartment mounted low between the frame rails. When Bob reversed the barrel he adapted the dummy to carry fuel and devised a rubber sprung, underslung rear suspension system. The picture of the 'bike in purple shows it as it came to me. In about 1982, when the 50cc class was replaced by the 80cc class, Bob fitted an air cooled P6 Minarelli motor fitted with a Polini 75cc top end. The other picture shows the 'bike part way through my restoration when I was putting it into my "Scuderia Pantalone" colours of blue and white with a silver tank and seat. In a moment of stress induced madness I sold the bike. I should love to get my hands on it again. If anyone knows of its whereabouts please let me know!

Edited by Minarelliman, 22 November 2010 - 11:18.


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#1240 50cc racer

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 08:12

This is my old 'bike. I bought it from Bob Strong who built it. He converted the Suzuki engine to water cooled, made his own disc valve and cast his own rear hub to fit a hydraulic brake system. He told me at the time that Steve Wicks made the frame for him. The front brake was a cable operated disc. He originally ran the 'bike with drum brakes. Initially the "petrol tank" was a dummy and the fuel was in a compartment mounted low between the frame rails. When Bob reversed the barrel he adapted the dummy to carry fuel and devised a rubber sprung, underslung rear suspension system. The picture of the 'bike in purple shows it as it came to me. In about 1982, when the 50cc class was replaced by the 80cc class, Bob fitted an air cooled P6 Minarelli motor fitted with a Polini 75cc top end. The other picture shows the 'bike part way through my restoration when I was putting it into my "Scuderia Pantalone" colours of blue and white with a silver tank and seat. In a moment of stress induced madness I sold the bike. I should love to get my hands on it again. If anyone knows of its whereabouts please let me know!


Nice info on this unique build - any pics of it racing?

Who, where and when?

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#1241 billbomann

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:39

Question
How many gears, revs and gear changes from this group from the 1966 50cc TT?

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#1242 tdijam

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:45

Question
How many gears, revs and gear changes from this group from the 1966 50cc TT?

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If this photo was taken during the race , which judging by the amount of spectators at Quarter Bridge it was ,then it must have been some race!. Unless they all set of at the same time for a practice session?

#1243 Rennmax

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 11:56

If this photo was taken during the race , which judging by the amount of spectators at Quarter Bridge it was ,then it must have been some race!. Unless they all set of at the same time for a practice session?


They had a mass start then. I think the RK 66 had 14 gears and max power output at 17.500 rpm

Edit: Must be one of the last races of #4 Ernst Degner

Edited by Rennmax, 04 December 2010 - 12:01.


#1244 tdijam

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:45

They had a mass start then. I think the RK 66 had 14 gears and max power output at 17.500 rpm

Edit: Must be one of the last races of #4 Ernst Degner

Well you live and learn, was it just the 50s that had a mass start?

#1245 fil2.8

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 12:51

Well you live and learn, was it just the 50s that had a mass start?



The 50cc from '67 was also a massed start , the ' proddie ' race from '67 was a ' Le Mans ' start for each class , with a 5 minute gap between classes :wave:


#1246 Arthur

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 20:17

The 50cc from '67 was also a massed start , the ' proddie ' race from '67 was a ' Le Mans ' start for each class , with a 5 minute gap between classes :wave:

Its TOMMY ROBB SUZUKI NO 8 6 GEARS HUGH ANDERSON NO 3 SUZUKI 14 GEARS EARNEST DEGNER SUZUKI NO 4 14 GEARS
GEORGE ANSCHEIDT SUZUKI NO 7 6 GEARS

#1247 Herr Wankel

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 20:31

Its TOMMY ROBB SUZUKI NO 8 6 GEARS HUGH ANDERSON NO 3 SUZUKI 14 GEARS EARNEST DEGNER SUZUKI NO 4 14 GEARS
GEORGE ANSCHEIDT SUZUKI NO 7 6 GEARS

Arthur,it looks like Tommy is on a twin (Hi level pipe on the left).Thought he only rode the TR50 proto!Am going to the TT database now
HW

Hmm Tommy was 3rd

Edited by Herr Wankel, 04 December 2010 - 20:35.


#1248 Arthur

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 20:34

Arthur,it looks like Tommy is on a twin (Hi level pipe on the left).Thought he only rode the TR50 proto!Am going to the TT database now
HW

Your probably right But I am sure some of the Suzuki entrants were on singles and some on twins

#1249 billbomann

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 21:19

How many gears on this one Arthur?

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#1250 Rennmax

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 21:45

Its TOMMY ROBB SUZUKI NO 8 6 GEARS HUGH ANDERSON NO 3 SUZUKI 14 GEARS EARNEST DEGNER SUZUKI NO 4 14 GEARS
GEORGE ANSCHEIDT SUZUKI NO 7 6 GEARS


Hans Georg Anscheidt rode a RK66 with it's 14 speed gear box in his world championship winning year in '66, he certainly had one of Suzuki's top bikes for the TT when the fight for the championship against the Hondas of Taveri and Bryans was at a crucial stage

Edited by Rennmax, 05 December 2010 - 12:04.