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1962-1983: the years of fast racing 'mopeds'!


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#101 renzo

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 18:56

the benly was a 125 twin? i think.

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#102 Herr Wankel

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 19:03

That looks like a racerised C110 or C114 Cub (sports or super)overhead valve.The benly CB92 was a 125 Single overhead cam twin,similar style short leading link forks and pressed steel frame and a superb looking front brake.

#103 T54

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 20:03

It's a racerized C110 Cub, but not with the factory kit.

#104 GD66

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 20:38

Nice one, Yednor, didn't think it was Bill Ivy, have never seen him in a jet helmet. Did you also used to punt a CR93 that grew to 182cc, by any chance ?

#105 T54

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 21:53

I think that we should add the 125cc class in this thread.

#106 Herr Wankel

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 21:55

Not a bad idea

#107 Yendor

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 23:25

Originally posted by GD66
Nice one, Yednor, didn't think it was Bill Ivy, have never seen him in a jet helmet. Did you also used to punt a CR93 that grew to 182cc, by any chance ?


I did have a CR93 for some four years, from 1964 to 1967 but it never grew to a 182. Those were the days when you could keep the same bike for years and still be competitive, and put a set of tyres on and change them when they wore out!!!!

Rod

#108 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 10:42

Sorry but bike 19 was never, ever going to be Bill Ivy. He wore a silver 'pudding basin' helmet with a green ivy leaf for almost his entire riding career but did wear a jet helmet at the end when on the Jawa.

#109 GD66

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 13:37

Good-oh Rod, how about a spot of dayglo, or the use of some flash trim on the leathers ? Think we have you picked, mate....

#110 Yendor

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 13:52

Originally posted by GD66
Good-oh Rod, how about a spot of dayglo, or the use of some flash trim on the leathers ? Think we have you picked, mate....


Yes you got me :wave:

#111 Herr Wankel

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 22:02

Are you at Chimay again this year Rodders?
HW

#112 50cc racer

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 21:36

Posted Image

No. 19 ?


50cc racer

#113 T54

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 22:16

Bit o' guessing from long forgotten memories:
Looks like the 1968 Spanish Grand Prix at Montjuich.
#19 is a Derbi "Carrera Cliente". Not sure of the rider, probably a Spaniard national. Could be Francisco Cuffi. He is hiding Carlos Giro (Derbi).
#14 is Barrie Smith (Derbi)
#1 is Hans Anscheidt on the sole Suzuki twin.
#10 is Angel Nieto (Derbi)
#8 is Paul Lodewijck (Jamathi)
#5 could be Chris Walpole (Honda). Behind him looks like Martin Mijwaart (Jamathi)
#3 is JP Nicolas (Derbi Carrera Cliente)
#15 is another Derbi Carrera Cliente.

T54

#114 50cc racer

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 22:38

Youre right again T54, Montjuick Park 68 and #19 must be Francisco Cuffi, but Mijwaart being #11 ?

Another GP driver:
Posted Image


50cc racer

#115 T54

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 22:56

No idea but it is not a works bike. Looks like a kitted RS with baby Ceriani forks and a front brake from a Zundapp... possibly in Germany or Holland?
But I will take those Baruffaldi goggles... any time, to repair mine! :)

#116 50cc racer

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 23:08

You´ll have to go to Switzerland to get Albert Bertholets goggles - or get a replica on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...sspagenameZWD2V

If I had Baruffaldis, I would swap them for a baby- Ceriani!


50cc racer

#117 T54

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 00:35

Wrong Barrufaldis. Those are too recent... they simply don't have the "right" shape. :(

#118 50cc racer

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 13:35

50cc at Darleymoor - but who and when ?
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50cc racer

#119 Herr Wankel

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 14:09

I can only tell you when it wasn't.After 73/74,so many disc brakes,cast wheels and 2-strokes!6 could be Greg Lawton,Suzuki special based on ASS50 Suzy?141 possibly Terry Keane?Grids were always drawn by ballot so grid place is no indication of lap times.

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#120 barrykm

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 14:11

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Youre right again T54, Montjuick Park 68 and #19 must be Francisco Cuffi, but Mijwaart being #11 ?

Another GP driver:
Posted Image



50cc racer

...So elegant...! :up:

#121 50cc racer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 16:32

????????

Posted Image


50cc racer

#122 Herr Wankel

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 17:55

Same disc valve set up as a Konig flat 4.Is it on a Kreidler base?
HW

#123 T54

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 02:41

Obviously an RS engine with a disc valve fitted on the former piston-port intake. Why is bizarre, because the piston still controls the mixture... :confused:

#124 Herr Wankel

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 10:41

Hi T54 and other 50cc fans. :wave:
I think the mixture goes straight into the cases on this one.Its almost like fixing a problem that doesn't exist.Although the charge is fired directly at the big-end.Looks like the barrel is turned round for better exhaust port sealing.Of course what I've just said could be a load of 'tripe'.Any ideas out there? :confused:
HW

#125 50cc racer

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 20:26

Posted Image

I think the idea behind this concept were to give the mixture a more direct shot into the crankcase, creating a lot less turbulence. Another bonus to this design are the fact that both right and left entrances to the transfer- channels can be identical, unlike the ones in the usual side-mounted discvalve.

A drawback must be the carb mounting! Maybe an updraft carb was used to avoid adding extra length to the intake, that would certainly hurt rpms big time!

Maybe this system were intended for inverted engines, like this one:
Posted Image


50cc racer

#126 50cc racer

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 19:47

This one is going to be quite easy for one of you!

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With greetings from Cédric!


50cc racer

#127 T54

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 14:16

:lol:
Jacques de Ara (Derbi Carreras-Cliente GP masquerading as "production" machine with the addition of lights working on a small battery to fit the "production" French rules), flanked by Maurice Maingret, 3rd on another Derbi (closer to production) and Yours Truly (semi-works Kreidler pre-RS era modified Florett) in second place. Behind me is Jacques Leconte, the Kreidler importer in France and preparer of the machine I was driving.
Cool old pic I had never seen, must have been 1966... :)

The modified Kreidler engine fitted in the picture above this post is mounted in a Suzuki RM64 frame that was STOLEN from Team Suzuki at Assen in mid 1964! :lol:

#128 50cc racer

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 17:57

Youre right again T54, 66 Monthlery. Maybe you have other interesting pictures from that period.

Posted Image

A Suzuki RM64 stolen at the Assen GP in 64? Interesting...


50cc racer

#129 Herr Wankel

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 18:50

Hi Everybody,
I thought the chassis looked very Suzuki like,but was just a neat copy.I did not know of this story although...........many years ago I heard of a similar one.A Honda factory 50cc rider (Taveri or Bryans?) breaks down in practice on one of the superb little twin cylinder jewels at the Ulster Grand Prix.He finds his way back to the paddock on foot.When the session is over,the mechanics go out to rescue the bike,but NO bike to be found? :eek: Anyone heard of this one,or is it a 'conspiracy theory'?
HW

#130 T54

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 03:28

The picture above shows Jacques Roca with the works Derbi team at Bourg en Bresse, with his mechanic Paco working on one of the bikes, while French privateer Pasquier watches, his own Carreras Cliente next to the works machines. Great pic of Roca, now deceased after a long battle with cancer.

Yes indeed I have neat pictures but little time to post them yet...

T54

#131 50cc racer

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 19:34

:clap: Cant wait ! :clap:

Vigreux or Ravel?

Posted Image


50cc racer

#132 T54

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 15:56

Ravel after Vigreux's untimely death.

#133 ESSEXBOY

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 19:40

A Suzuki RM64 stolen at the Assen GP in 64? Interesting...

whats the story??? :eek: :eek: :eek:

#134 50cc racer

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 20:49

Seems to me that the Suzuki team guarded their bikes allright ! :lol:

Posted Image


50cc racer

#135 T54

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 21:21

Not well enough. At least one RM64 was stolen as well as a 125cc from one of the Hino vans in the hotel parking lot during the night at Assen. It was Ernst Degner's machine and he was furious. I believe that Ray Battersby has a mention of this in his Team Suzuki book. I am told that the RM64 engine circulated in some Dutch hands and helped a certain Mr. Jorg Mueller in his own progress in designing the Kreidler engines for Van Veen. Interestingly, the 125cc engine made its way to Italy where it was a base of inspiration for the early Morbidelli engine designed by Ringhini.
I have never heard the story about the Honda twin, but an RK65 50cc Twin also got away from Suzuki at the 1965 US GP at Daytona. The AMA had a little-known (to the Japanese and Europeans) claim rule where one could buy the winning machine for $5K, so as to limit factory incentive to spend too much and keep a level-playing field. Well, someone did and got the bike, to the utter dismay of te Japanese crew. It has never been raced since and 2 years ago was in a Bonhams sale where it failed to reach reserve after a bid of $85K.

Later the AMA modified the rule to only allow a winning engine to be claimed. In the late 1970's, Patrick Pons claimed the works 750cc Yamaha engine of Johnny Cecotto if I recall correctly and got it back to his hotel, only to be told by a Yamaha top-level person that it would be against his own interest to keep it. Pons thought about it twice and surrendered the motor.

#136 50cc racer

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:21

Well, then this must be a "before" shot! Everybody looks happy.


Posted Image

Suzuki pits, Assen 64


50cc racer

#137 GD66

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 07:31

In the group pic in post #134, that's Hugh Anderson on #4, and Ernst Degner on #5. But who's the dapper gent on #1 ? Would that be Bertie Schneider ?

#138 Herr Wankel

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:19

Hi 50cc 'ers,
The Honda tale was told to me at Mondello Park,in Ireland around '83-'84.We were in the bar having a post-race 'de-brief'.Involving much silly talk and lots of Guinness.The tale teller seemed fairly sure of his facts though.I was celebrating beating the then 500 Irish Classic champ (450 Ducati) with my BSA/CCM hillclimb bike on his own turf.Happy days!
HW

#139 T54

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 15:29

Would that be Bertie Schneider ?


Left to right: Itoh, Ichino, Anderson, Morishita, Bertie, Ernst.
One of these bikes is somewhere in Dutch hands...

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#140 Sergio

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 15:31

You're right, GD66, the guy on Number 1 is certainly Bertie Schneider, the team joker.

I believe this paddock photo was taken in 1963 in the Isle of Man just behind the grandstand.

It looks like Mitsuo Itoh sitting astride Number 8. He won his first TT that year on his RM63 and also became the first Japanese ever to win a TT - or a Grand Prix for that matter. Machine numbers 10 and 14 are almost certainly straddled by Isao Morishita and Michio Ichino although the photo's just a little too grainy to say which is which.

Now the Hino trucks mentioned by T54 were delivered from Japan for the 1961 season. They were fine until the Isle of Man TT. That's when the team found they were too big to be driven onto the Isle of Man ferry. The team had to transfer everything onto open trucks and leave the Hinos behind in Liverpool.

From 1964, the team used a fleet of smaller vans after five new Bedfords were delivered to their European Team headquarters at the Hotel d'Orange, Stavelot in Belgium.

Sergio

#141 T54

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 15:38

Ray, you are correct, they were Commers... my mistake! :)

#142 ESSEXBOY

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 22:43

It's better off in Dutch hands than in the crusher back in Japan Ha Ha! :rotfl:

#143 T54

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 23:04

No doubt! :)
As I personally saw a 1966 Kreidler 12-speed suffer the same fate, I sympathize with that.

#144 ESSEXBOY

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 20:29

What is it with those Dutch?

they also managed to "liberate " my pre-production Hayabusa at the Dutch TT in 2000 :(

#145 50cc racer

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 23:02

Remember this one ?
Posted Image


50cc racer

#146 T54

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 23:36

Indeed, since I began racing on one of these. The bike is a Franco-Morini powered 1962 Ital Jet, designed by Leopoldo Tartarini. This was the first 50cc sold by Ital Jet, followed by a MZ powered 125cc single.
Mine was the first ever sold in France (purchased directly from the importer, Pierre Bonnet) and the first Ital Jet to ever win a race, which I did in early 1963. The Ital company was founded by Tartarini who won several Milano to Tarente road races in the 1950's. This particular Ital Jet has been a bit butchered by his owner, as the original was a very pretty machine in fabulous Italian style colors of gold and metallic blue with white pinstriping.

On the one shown, the seat is not original, the frame has had additional tubing added and the tire are too fat.
It also appears to have been modified to fit a fairing.

Here are pics of a later model with forced-air cooling and a much less attractive paint job than the original, as well as less attractive cycle parts:

Posted Image

Posted Image

T54 :)

#147 50cc racer

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 01:17

Surprise ! :wave:
Your bike according to Cédric:

Posted Image

The Italjet production racer were sold in UK, complete with fairing for £135.


50cc racer

#148 T54

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 01:36

I think that I am going to cry... indeed this is a pic of my very first racing bike at the end of its racing days, just before I had a taste of the Spanish Derbi and much more power. I then sold it because I needed the money to purchase the 5-speed Derbi...
I made the racing seat myself from a piece of plywood and foam, as well as the tank rest and the footpegs bolted stright through the swing arm. Note the foot shifter that I fitted, a rare after-market accessory for the Morini engines. I nearly won the production championship on this bike, missing by a few points. That was my very first year of racing, a thousand years ago... :stoned:
Does Cedric have other pics? I would love to see them! :)

#149 ESSEXBOY

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 12:15

:wave:
what an awesome forum/thread
it's great to see owners and bikes re-united decades later :clap:
50cc racer posted a pic of my first bike a racing ducati 50sl about a month ago
it made my week!


on the subject of forced air cooling
i remember owning a "sporty" 50cc road bike with the same set up anyone recall the Demm Dove?????????



it was very loud but less powerful and not as attractive my Ducati

only ever saw the one i owned...

#150 Rob Miller

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 12:54

In Durban, South Africa in 1961 my dad came home from a bankruptcy sale with a pair of Demm Dick-Dick 50cc bikes, proper little motorcycles. They had quite different frames and one had forced air cooling.

After a couple of years we traded them in on a pair of Hondas.