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1962-1983: the years of fast racing 'mopeds'!


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#201 sandy

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 02:58

This is completely going off on a tangent but mention of mopeds in Europe reminds me of a time when I lived in Belgium in the mid 80's and because of a traffic offence I was regularly visited at home by an enormous young uniformed Belgian policeman who wore jackboots, black peaked cap and a black full length leather greatcoat under which he carried a pistol, baton, torch, handcuffs and other police equipment all hanging from a leather Sam Browne belt. When he strode into our house he seemed to fill the living room and his massive presence was very intimidating and sinister. I could almost imagine him having silver skull and crossbone badges somewhere amongst his various insignia and decorations etc. We could see that he was pleasurably aware of the anxiety he was creating and he was very stern and forbidding. Until it was time to leave that is, when he suddenly developed a reluctance for me to usher him out the front door, requesting me to stay inside. Intrigued I persisted in following him out the front door and saw that his police vehicle was not a black BMW or a Hummer but a tiny moped. He propped it up off the back wheel and frantically started pedalling and after about 20 seconds there was a series of popping noises and eventually a high pitched farting noise which died away to the popping noise again as the engine took up his full weight and so we watched him wobble away down our street. Somehow on subsequent visits he never quite regained his aura of power and on leaving always motioned to us to stay inside but we never missed his departure. Perhaps all police should ride mopeds.

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#202 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 06:11

:rotfl: Nice story

#203 50cc racer

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 19:56

A BIG welcome to yet another 50cc racing enthusiast!
Martijn of www.emot.nl is the man behind the come- back of 50cc racing.
His white Leyland-van can be seen at every 50cc classic race- meeting worth mentioning, and his passion for east european- made thoroughbreds are genuine !

Here he is next to his fast Riga: :rotfl:

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Ooops! Wrong picture! This one!

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Beautiful curves on these Riga bikes!

Good luck with the European 50cc race series www.classic50cc.eu, I sure hope I can join in someday.
And maybe a race here in Denmark? I think it must be nearly 40 years ago, a 50cc race happened here.
Here two pics from sixties- racing at Djursland-Ring:

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In the seventies, the few remaining 50cc enthusiasts had to join the 125 class, and a friend of mine did just that.
Poul Erik Oversø built himself a venerable Minarelli- powered racer, and embarrassed quite a few 125s :clap:

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Macca, I believe the first bike pictured is one of few built Heldun Hawks, built in Birmingham 67-68. The Hawk model designated a 5-speed worksracer, and above is a Heldun Hurricane (61 in background), the production racer 4-speed. I´m a little uncertain of engines used in the Heldun lineup, but Hawks seemed to carry Sachs engines, Hurricanes Garelli, but a Daldi&Matteuchi? twostroke is mentioned too.
Can anybody set us straight here?
Second bike is an early Derbi, and third a British built Minarelli- racer - by Steve Bedford?

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#204 emotracing

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 22:25

Hello,

Thank you for the kind words.
I hope we can race at the Djurslandring ,at this stage it looks like we can come and race.

One little change.

After 9 years of good service the LDV van had to go.
I wil keep it in mind as the best piece of junk I ever owned.
It was a van with a life of its own ,always had some minor problems ,but never big ones.
Easy and cheap to maintain ,not that bad to ride too.
Now I have a VW crafter. A very german van ,no character - but very good. And too much electronics.

How is your Kreidler project proceeding..?

#205 50cc racer

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 18:58

Anyone like to have a go at the "mystery engine" in post 197 ?
Clue: It has something to do with Jan Thiel!

To emotracing: Are working on and off in Spain these days, and all projects suffer big time because of this!
As I said last year: Maybe next year.
Which of your interesting bikes will be used for the "euro"- series, the Riga?


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#206 emotracing

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 20:49

Hello,
That engine is a Garelli...
But is it a Jan Thiel engine ,or not..?
There is also some words about a Ing. Mariani...?
I'll find out.

In the euro series I will use whatever runs...
The Riga is not a smart choice ,but she is quite reliable.
I hope to ride the orange Simson.
And I have a Kreidler too ,a Uhl-Stein. But its not a highly tuned rocket Kreidler...only 5 speed.
Next year I plan to use a Casal 50 ,I am building it at the moment.
Its the modern Casal engine ,6 speed box.

#207 Sergio

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 02:27

PAUL PETRY - 50cc RACER

I have been told that a man called Paul Petry from Dillingen in Saarland, West Germany designed his own 50cc racing engine and that it made its racing debut at Hockenheim in 1958 (this could be 1960 or later I guess). I believe the rider was Adolph Klein of Saarland (possibly Dillingen).

It was overgeared at Hockenheim and couldn't pull top gear (5-speeds) but I have heard that the engine was later tested on Kreidler's race-shop dynamometer which showed the Petry engine producing more power than the racing Kreidler of that time! Paul Petry was offered a job at Kreidler as a result. He didn't take it because he wanted to design a larger 125cc (?) go-kart engine. I believe Petri engines remained in production from 1962 until 1985.

Do any members know of this 50cc machine? Were there any press reports and photographs of the machine and its designer? Can anybody help to solve this mystery? :clap:

#208 50cc racer

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 13:58

Hi Sergio

Interesting story
I dont know a lot about the Petry, but Joep Kortekaas has been so kind to supply info as well as a picture :

http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/1961.html



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#209 Sergio

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 17:40

PAUL PETRY - 50cc RACER

Thank you very much 50cc Racer for the link to your very useful and detailed web-site.

www.elsberg-tuning.dk/1961.html

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This is the most concrete information I have seen about Paul Petry's engine and certainly the only photograph (Courtesy of www.elsberg-tuning.dk) I have seen of Petry's 50cc engine so far.

This photograph shows the engine to be a horizontal single cylinder two-stroke with rotary disc valve on the right hand side. The carburettor could be a Bing(?). The cast iron cylinder is water cooled and the aluminium cylinder head is air-cooled. The water-cooling circulation is thermo-syphon to the small radiator mounted on the seat tubes behind the engine, a strange location because mounting the radiator in the more usual forward position would improve cooling (and maybe a smaller/lighter radiator could have been used) and the connecting steel pipework would be significantly shorter. The volume of coolant needed would also be less, all reducing overall weight.

Does anybody else recall Paul Petry or his engines? I have been told that he died a few years ago.

Are there any other sites specialising in 50cc racing history that may also have information about the Petry?

I would expect Paul Petry to have entered his machines in his 'local' races, the St Wendel Grand Prix (Saarland GP) but this is only my guess.

My interest is created by a book I am researching about the development of two-stroke technology and how that technology has become spread around the world.

#210 emotracing

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 21:53

Originally posted by emotracing
Hello,
That engine is a Garelli...
But is it a Jan Thiel engine ,or not..?
There is also some words about a Ing. Mariani...?
I'll find out.


Well ,I got mail from Italy with first-hand info...
The Garelli engine is definitely not designed by Jan Thiel ,but Ingeniore Mariani.
This engine was the reason Thiel was hired to make a race-engine.
The Mariani engine never finished a race ,it was almost recordbreaking in its unreliability and low power output.

About the Petry.
I think the Loers brothers here in Holland once made a racebike with a Petry kart engine driving a cut off 8-speed Honda racing gearbox.
As I understand it was a very fast ,but slightly unreliable racebike.

#211 T54

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 22:07

Ray,
To add to the story that you are researching, I can tell you without a single doubt that the cycle parts in which this Petri engine is mounted are from a 1961 Peripoli "Giulietta" street moped. I KNOW because I had one, and the loop of the tubes as well as many other details is / are unmistakable.
It also looks like the silencer is from... the same moped, a typical Italian made "Silentium" unit. I guess that in 1961, the expansion chambers were a novelty only used few manufacturers such as MZ, Bultaco and Derbi...
If this engine indeed produced more power than a 1961 "works" Kreidler Florett, we are only talking about 7HP in 1961 for the Rudolf Kunz or Hans Ancheidt works bikes, which is possible but hard to fathom with this exhaust system. Remember that the fist 1962 works Suzuki, that beat the Kreidlers and Hondas (the Derbis did not compete outside of Spain) that won the world championship with Ernst had only 8HP... and a top speed of 110KMH. Enough to beat everybody!
Best regards,

T54

#212 Sergio

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 11:27

Phillipe,

As usual, you're miles ahead of me on this one. I was trawling around comparing the 'Petry' chassis to other known brands and would never have found the Peripoli Giuletta road-going moped which I have never previously come across.

Now the reasons why Paul Petry would have selected such an obscure road-going rolling chassis to test his engine on a race track is unknown - at least for now. My best guess is that he produced his engine on a very limited budget - as indicated by his apparent use of domestic chrome-plated copper pipes (?) for his cooling system. With limited budget, maybe he just found this Italian moped at the back of his workshop and had no choice but to use it as his test bed (including its standard exhaust)?

Regarding the engine's ability to out-perform a Kreidler, maybe my source's memory has been clouded by the 45 years of misty time that has intervened?

The cylinder head seems vaguely familiar - is it from an NSU Quickly?

Sergio

#213 T54

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 14:11

Ray,
The Peripoli chassis was brand new when the Petri bike was built, so it could not have been a leftover old clunker at the back of the shop...
The engine head appears to be from an NSU or possibly a Zundapp? The carb looks like a Bing, but the picture is a bit vague.
Here is a stock Peripoli Giulietta for comparison, this one a 1964 model with the forced-air Franco-Morini engine. The tank and seat are more modern, but the frame parts are still the same as on the Petri bike:

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This cool-looking one is from 1962 and has a different frame but has the same seat and tank as on the one used by Petri:

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I hope that this helps your research. :)

#214 Sergio

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 15:47

Phillipe,

I very much appreciate your help and your research is to the usual high standard (thanks for the photos and links) but how do you know which tank and seat Petry used? They are not visible on the only Petry photo that I've seen.

So, Phillipe, as a newby model, maybe Petry deliberately selected this rolling chassis for his engine and added the footrest mounting loops to the basic frame. Can you speculate why this may have been? For example, did the Peripoli have a good racing pedigree or was it recognised as having outstanding handling and brakes? As a German citizen, I would have expected Petry to have first turned to a home-grown chassis - such as Kreidler n'est pas?

Sergio

#215 T54

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 16:43

Ray,
The "Giulietta" was absolutely the most favored boy-racer, coolest-looking bike for us, teenagers, in 1961, when it was first produced and introduced in Frankistan by Pierre Bonnet, who later became the Suzuki importer.
If indeed Petri built his bike in 1961 (he could not have done it before with this chassis because... it did not exist before that time), the tank and seat HAD to be the earlier version as shown on my second picture, becooozzz, the later tank as shown in that picture did not exist before 1964 and was pirated from the... 1962 Italjet SS, the very bike on which I made my racing debut. Hence, by simple deduction... :)
My Italjet was the first one ever sold in France, from Pierre Bonnet to the George Monneret store on Place de la Bastille in Paris, and was the first-ever to record a race win, at Monthlery in 1963.
That does not make me any younger... :lol:
Please note that this earlier tank as well as the headlight fairing made by an Italian supplier to Peripoli, was also sold to other manufacturers such as the French Paloma:

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Going back to the Petri bike, looks to me that the footpegs are in the stock position with the original frame loops, no change. Please note that the 1964 version of the Peripoli frame was different in this respect. It is very hard to find pictures of the 1961 "Giulietta" on the net.
However here is a picture of a 1964 Italjet SS with the forced-air Franco-Morini engine, and a later seat than the original and much prettier 1962 model, than came only in pale matallic blue and gold and with a much nicer tank paint treatment, simply to show you the shape of the tank copied by Peripoli:

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Also please note that the muffler on the Petri special appears to be the same as on this Italjet, a product of the "Silentium" company in Italy. Hence my question about power compared to even the standard Kreidler muffler that would give a serious advantage...

Now the Peripoli chassis was not so bad compared to all available then: lighter than the heavy Itom or the huge Kreidler, but with typical Italian cr*ppy "suspension" (that cost me a 6-hour race when I had it in the bag in 1963), the Peripoli was not such a bad choice compared to other Italian, German, Dutch or French offerings.
It still boggles the mind that Petri did not simply build his own as most were doing then when building "specials".

#216 50cc racer

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 19:08

I really like those Italian bikes!

Here´s another one:

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Nice rear brake!



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#217 T54

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 19:56

Looks like the Mondial with the "Young Tigers" French kit on it, cosnsiting of a true expansion chamber and extended foot pegs (while these look like installed by the owner)... first production motorcycle with a front disk brake. :)

#218 50cc racer

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 20:45

Nope, I think the Rondine Competition Monza 50 actually came equipped like pictured.
Complete with lights, clip-ons, double sided front brake, expansion chamber, and :rotfl: a heel operated rear brake!

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#219 T54

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 21:21

Square light, ugly front brake with fake air intakes... Yep, this must be from 1970 or after, so my knowledge (and interest) goes down the drain... :lol:
Yet another Franco Morini / Minarelli engine, butr the later 4-speed with shifter and the larger head...

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#220 50cc racer

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:05

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Trying to break the record almost 45 years apart using forced induction!


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#221 philippe7

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:28

Mon Dieu ! Incroyable.... :eek:

The subtle difference being that the older version is "supercharged" ( mechanical - belt driven compressor ) while the more recent one is "turbocharged" ( exhaust-driven.... ) I had never, ever heard of a turbocharged 2-stroke ! But then, I don't know so much about mopeds ( outside of my own Motobécane "Mobylette" which had a hard time competing with the Itom, Malagutti, Flandria , Gitane-Testi and the kind of my school mates :blush: )

#222 Sergio

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:42

Phillipe,

I guess you may never have seen this picture before.

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It's not a re-touched photo from the latest Dorling-Kindersley Boys Book of Engines; it's the crankshaft from the largest engine in the world. And yes, it's a two stroke.

And it's also turbocharged.

You can see more interesting pics of the World's Largest Engine here:

http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

Not quite the stuff for 50cc racing though...

#223 reservoircogs

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:48

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Could it be this one ?

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Essexboy there is a pic of you in your bleniums overalls working on it in the garden, should be in the archive shots at Olives....get RICHARD!!! to scan it in.

#224 50cc racer

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 21:32

Pictures of the actual 224 km/h record breaking Kreidler engine from 1965 !
Canister around head was filled with ice before take off. When speed turned out to be less than expected,
a run was made with just water added. Result - a new world record!

Supercharging rules! :clap:

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#225 bschenker

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 07:57

I cant remember the number, but der was on article in the magazine "Das Motorrad" about the solutions used on on of the Kreidler engines, with photos like the carter with the free space filled with balsa wood.

May by someware have the number.

.

#226 philippe7

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 20:45

Originally posted by Sergio
Phillipe,I guess you may never have seen this picture before.
Not quite the stuff for 50cc racing though...


No, but still bloody interesting.....the borders of the unconceivable are pushed all the time :eek: Thanks for the link

#227 50cc racer

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 07:46

When, where, and who ?


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#228 Sergio

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:52

Originally posted by 50cc racer
Pictures of the actual 224 km/h record breaking Kreidler engine from 1965 !

I found your photographs of the Kreidler engine very interesting. For example, I am very much a learner about these tiny engines but cannot recall having seen twin rotary disc valves used on what appears to be a single cylinder engine. A clever improvement that would have improved overall air-intake capability.

I noticed a small downdraft carburettor downstream of the engine's main AMAL TT carburettor. It is clearer on this photograph that I found on the web:

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This shows that it is not a complete carburetter so maybe it was used to control air-mixture (i.e. as a choke)? According to other photographs I found, this small device is not always present.

#229 T54

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:23

A guess at the picture...
# 4 is DEFINITELY Santiago Herrero on the works Derbi. The # 7 is a Tomos. The # 17 could be Otello Buscherini on the Morbidelli, not sure. # 36???
This could have been in Opatija in 1969?
Just a guess... :)

#230 50cc racer

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 22:28

Sergio:

Found some info on Petry engined racers on the top- notch Limburg racing team forum : www.limburgracingteam.nl

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Exactly like emotracing recalled in an earlier post: a 125 two- stroke coupled to a CR110 transmission!


T54:

Its 1970, Morbidelli- ?, Derbi- Herrero, Kreidler- ?, Tomos- ?



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#231 T54

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 00:23

If it is 1970, it's Alberto Ieva on the Morbidelli. :)

#232 HEMEYLA

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 18:04

It is 1969, Dutch TT at Assen, to easy for me. ;)

No. 17 is a Morbidelli for sure, but not Alberto !

#233 T54

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 18:29

It HAS to be Ieva because it is not Lazzarini's helmet and he was the other works driver with Parlotti, and Parlotti also has a different helmet... :)

#234 HEMEYLA

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 19:11

Phillipe 1969 is a long time ago, Eugenio Lazzarini was the only Morbidelli 50cc rider at Assen that year, Franco Ringhini the other works rider didn't start in all the GP's, so he was not at Assen.

Gilberto Parlotti was a works rider for Tomos in 1969.

I have some other pictures from Eugenio wearing that helmet in 1969 and 1970.

Edited by HEMEYLA, 29 May 2009 - 01:45.


#235 T54

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 19:21

The only way it can be is that if Eugenio wore Ieva's helmet that day... :)
Parlotti was works driver in 1970 of course.

#236 HEMEYLA

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 19:50

Alberto Ieva at Morbidelli 1971.

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#237 HEMEYLA

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 10:00

No. 15 Eugenio Lazzarini, Imola GP 1969:

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Edited by HEMEYLA, 18 July 2010 - 14:21.


#238 50cc racer

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 20:51

My mistake :o , it was Assen 69 and Lazzarini ahead of Herrero, Herman Meijer, and Djanco Stefe.
The cool picture was borrowed from Meijers site: www.hemeyla.nl.



Here´s another:

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Maybe you are in there somewhere, Ton ?



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#239 HEMEYLA

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Posted 24 April 2008 - 21:58

A lot of old friends, but not me at the German GP 29 & 30 april 1972 on the Nürburgring.

Something strange to, with 27 on the left you see the late Paul Lodewykx on Jamathi, Paul had a bad road accident at the end of 1970 in Amsterdam, after a long recovery he was allowed to race for the first time at Tubbergen 22 may 1972 !?

On the right just going out of sight, Börje Jansson, his only GP on a Jamathi.

35 on the right Leif Rosell on his privat Jamathi, in the middle of the pack 1971 world champion Jan de Vries.

43 the late Rudi Kunz with Kreidler, 5 Albert Bertholet, 47 Herbert Rittberger, 17 Hans Hummel (R.I.P.)

45 Rolf Minhoff at Maico, 25 Ryszard Mankiewicz, 18 Jan Huberts.

Who knows the other tiddlerman. :smoking:

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#240 50cc racer

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:09

Well, I´m pretty sure that 31 is Lars Persson on Monark !

Amazing, the difference in frontal area between Minhoffs Maico (45) and Rosells Jamathi (35).
Jan Thiel knew what he was doing !


Here´s the start from another angle:

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#241 HEMEYLA

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:30

Martijn "Emot" has found the right solutions for Maico 50cc racers:

"You need no frame, build the steering head and the swingarm at the engine" :rotfl:

#242 50cc racer

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:52

Based on the 125, the Maico 50 sure is a big sturdy engine!

Here witnessed by the late Tage Pettersons (S) homebuilt racer.

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#243 50cc racer

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 21:04

Where ?

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#244 Russell Burrows

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 21:29

Opatija, Yugoslavia, 1963. Tommy Robb 31. Not sure about the Kriedler pilot. The two factory Suzukis are ridden by Suzuki and......
Whoops, I see there wasn't a Yugoslav GP that year. Finland then?

#245 HEMEYLA

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 22:22

Germany, Solitude 1962, Jan Huberts on 23 Kreidler.

#246 lil'chris

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 22:43

Definitely Solitude. Entry to the Hedersbachkurve.

#247 Russell Burrows

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:45

Well, I did identify Robb!

#248 Cdric Foliot

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 14:32

n°27 Hans-George Anscheidt on Kreidler
n°6 is Seichi Suzuki on Suzuki

#249 Cdric Foliot

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 08:04

n°8 Mitsuo Itoh on Suzuki
During this race,Jacques Roca finish 2nd private rider on DERBI 5 speeds (1st private rider was Gerhard Thurow on KREIDLER)
Also apparead on this race for the first time a new engine DERBI made by TOMBAS a 7 speeds gear box build on the base of the 5 speeds.I buy this engine to Jean-Louis Pasquier few years ago,you can see photos on interest internet site
elsberg-tuning.dk

#250 50cc racer

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 20:46

This race, held on Solitude 1962, was that a championship- counting race, or?


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