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wing choice for hillclimbing


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#51 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 09:42

I have not tried this test myself but it has been suggested that to check the drag of a"wing" drive the car to the max speed you will be reaching on a straight road them put the car out of gear and coast to a stop without using the brakes and measure how far the car goes. I have not tried this test as I have always had an abundance power but with only a small amount of power drag is an important factor

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#52 Rosemayer

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 21:18

You could install a 13b Rotery and use all the wing you want plus wheels and tires.

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#53 jeremy durward

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 00:43

thats the next car... well gpz1100 motor not a 13b, but still a lot more power. the vee is about some cheap motorsport and learning everthing i can.

as for the coast down test my only problem will be finding a road long enough nearby. if anyone know of somewhere i could do this, partcularly in south australia... or any ideas of the type of place suitible then please let me know

#54 Rosemayer

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 15:37

Here is an option for the future.


http://www.race-cars...129148529ss.htm

#55 NRoshier

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 23:09

Many options:
http://www.racecarsd...ories/9/46.html

#56 jeremy durward

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 23:27

Originally posted by NRoshier
Many options:
http://www.racecarsd...ories/9/46.html


what are you guys trying to say about the vee??? :lol:

like i said its a learning experience. next up is a mallock clubman chassis... well as a base, it will be much modified and with a motorbike motor

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ok a lot of work to go but one day

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#57 Rosemayer

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 20:54

My old VEE for autocrossing.1835cc

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Ask Ray to help you track down his old car.

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#58 jeremy durward

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 21:50

Originally posted by Rosemayer
My old VEE for autocrossing.1835cc

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Ask Ray to help you track down his old car.

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1835cc must have made it a bit more exciting than mine under accelaration. do you mean ray bell? what kind of car is it? i can't recognise it from this angle.

#59 rosemeyer

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 23:02

Yes Ray Bell its a homemade clubman

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#60 Bill Sherwood

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 08:00

Originally posted by rosemeyer
Yes Ray Bell its a homemade clubman



Mine too.

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1300cc Suzuki twin cam, about 150hp.
They go pretty darn well for such a simple car.

#61 Rosemayer

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 13:10

Great job Bill I envy You :up: :up:

#62 jeremy durward

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Posted 10 January 2008 - 20:43

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood




1300cc Suzuki twin cam, about 150hp.
They go pretty darn well for such a simple car.


ahh the 1300cc suzuki clubman, the begining of the end. sorry a bit bitter about the disapearence of the clubman formula to be replaced with expensive supersport regs

#63 NRoshier

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 04:32

errr....how much did it cost for a professional push-rod engine build and what was the service life. Besides we cannot change the past.

#64 Fat Boy

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 17:43

To the OP:

After learning a bit more about your car, experience level, budget, etc. my advice has changed.

Run the car as it is. Don't put wings on it. Learn what it can do and what you can do with it. You've really only scratched the surface of the thing right now and there is a bunch you can do without having to hang wings off the thing.

Your priorities should be:
1. Driver development. There's going to be a bunch of time here.
2. Chassis setup. Ditto.
3. Weight reduction
4. Overall preparation

Take some time and get these 4 things really, really sorted. It might take a year or 2. When you've learned all you can learn from your Vee, then move onto something else and go incrementally faster for a huge amount more money.

#65 jeremy durward

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 02:50

Originally posted by NRoshier
errr....how much did it cost for a professional push-rod engine build and what was the service life. Besides we cannot change the past.


i have no direct problem with the motor being used, i just see it as the beggining of the change that resulted in no more clubman class in australian racing. its just motor racing is getting more and more expensive and the classes that were the cheap ones are no longer. i don't belive a competetive f vee should cost you over $30,000 it makes it almost imposible for most people to get into racing particularly circuit racing.

#66 jeremy durward

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 03:01

Originally posted by Fat Boy
To the OP:

After learning a bit more about your car, experience level, budget, etc. my advice has changed.

Your priorities should be:
1. Driver development. There's going to be a bunch of time here.
2. Chassis setup. Ditto.
3. Weight reduction
4. Overall preparation


well lets address these one by one

1. driver development, while i may only have one season of hillclimbing ofiicially i'm already gettin the car going faster than other more experienced people... that being said i think there is a half a second still in the car as is, maybe a second with better tyres, which i have
2. chassis setup, there is not a hell of a lot to do here, some new front shocks are on there way and the car is beutiful to drive, very balanced. short of putting slicks on... which i can't and still compete in my class.
i'm looking at fitting droop limiters to the car too
3. weight limit. i'm on the min weight now, however i'm looking at some weight reduction to then put what i have lower. damn rules
4.overall prep, yeah that could be better. good point.
anyway my point is i'm looking into and doing all of what you said over the break and plan on testing all of these things individually before i hit the track. the wings will be a late addition if at all this season, i'm just trying to get as much info as i can before i go and make somthing.

#67 NRoshier

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 09:03

Originally posted by jeremy durward


i have no direct problem with the motor being used, i just see it as the beggining of the change that resulted in no more clubman class in australian racing. its just motor racing is getting more and more expensive and the classes that were the cheap ones are no longer. i don't belive a competetive f vee should cost you over $30,000 it makes it almost imposible for most people to get into racing particularly circuit racing.


Actually Jeremy the cost has come down in real terms depending on class of course. Sure the numbers are higher, but the real cost is different. Also motorsport has never been 'cheap'

#68 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:21

Yeah.

My brother used to race Austin 750s. He was on first name terms with his (brilliant) engine tuner. So much angst and $$ for so little hp.

#69 NRoshier

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 13:10

I actually think the costs may have shifted a bit. The motorbike engines are so fast and so reliable that the search for an advantage has shifted to other components e.g. dampers. Mind you the cars are very much faster too and as much as I like some concepts such as the 750MC cars (and clubmans) that I once though of racing, the truth is they are too fragile and 'dangerous' for the likes of me..

#70 McGuire

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 13:50

The biggest trend we have here in the states is people just giving up on class racing and doing track day cars.

Just pick out any old car you really like (or build it) and make sure it's safe and you are ready to go. When you are not trying to be "competitive" a good part of the expense disappears. And you can run whatever you want just because you find it interesting, whether if fits well in a particular category or not. And it can be something really dirt cheap, like an obsolete ex-SCCA class racer. True, you are abandoning all real competition but many guys a) don't care or b) take the realistic view that they would never be truly competitive anyway. Whatever works to have fun, as I see it.

#71 jeremy durward

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 04:14

Originally posted by NRoshier


Actually Jeremy the cost has come down in real terms depending on class of course. Sure the numbers are higher, but the real cost is different. Also motorsport has never been 'cheap'


well of course i didn't mean cheap as in a 2.50 bag of chips cheap. its all relative. what i'm saying is with the rule changes we've had over the past few years, the classes which are the cheap ones relatively are closing the gap to the expensive ones. well that seems the trend in south aus anyway.

i understand what yur saying and you are right, its just the shift in some classes being the cheaper one to being the more expensive ones and then having no real replacement.

#72 robroy

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 12:56

Originally posted by jeremy durward


yeah this would only work for my car on a very flat road as the vee runs very soft in bump, i'm already having problems with bottoming the front of the car. i do like the idea though. it will give me some real world results to go by.


Here is my cheap as chips downforce/lift measuring device for use on flat roads etc:

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Following advice from these pages, a sliding potentiometer and two strips of angle. Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to test it out yet as my car is currently undergoing a minor transplant....

#73 jeremy durward

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 12:53

yeah, looks good, this is actually something i've thought of but not in this way. gives me some good ideas. thanks

#74 cheapracer

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 03:29

Originally posted by McGuire
The biggest trend we have here in the states is people just giving up on class racing and doing track day cars.

Just pick out any old car you really like (or build it) and make sure it's safe and you are ready to go. When you are not trying to be "competitive" a good part of the expense disappears. And you can run whatever you want just because you find it interesting, whether if fits well in a particular category or not. And it can be something really dirt cheap, like an obsolete ex-SCCA class racer. True, you are abandoning all real competition but many guys a) don't care or b) take the realistic view that they would never be truly competitive anyway. Whatever works to have fun, as I see it.


Its still nice to race friends though, some years ago I put my Daughters into private school and the cost ended any car racing activity for a while so i turned to vintage motocross racing - old bikes and old blokes. Racing was respectful and fun. As with bikes, most race cars are just too fast these days for many hence in the US Mazda MX5/Mianta leads the way for numbers followed by spec Ford racers - both excitingly slow and fun.

Thats my market target, my spec racing cars will be excitingly slow and bloody cheap,

#75 cheapracer

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 03:50

Originally posted by NRoshier


Also motorsport has never been 'cheap'


Cant agree, Motorsport can be cheap but there seems to be some forces that stop it being so. I've had many years of cheap racing - I just choose not to win.

Example is spec racing. If you have a spec racing series, why the F%*^ do you have to have expensive racing components throughout the car? Thats just bullshit, the cars are all the same it doesnt matter a shit if they all weigh 20kgs more. It doesnt matter if they all have fibreglass wings instead of carbon fibre.

I have approached CAMS 2 times over the years with extensive plans to run spec series using (fast) cars built (to plan by you) for under $5000, not interested. But if your a manufacturer its a different story, they will bend over backwards for you.

Anyway, thanks to the AMRS things are getting changed slowly unlike CAMS they welcome my ideas openly.

#76 NRoshier

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:43

we will have to disagree on cheap, I think FVee is about as cheap as things can get with current regulations, but it would still be very possible to spend $50,000 on a national season.
AMRS is a fine product that deserves better fields of cars.
The cost of buying the car and event fees etc is actually a relatively minor cost when full accounting is done. Some costs e.g. Tyres have actually reduced.

#77 jeremy durward

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 12:53

Originally posted by NRoshier
we will have to disagree on cheap, I think FVee is about as cheap as things can get with current regulations, but it would still be very possible to spend $50,000 on a national season.
AMRS is a fine product that deserves better fields of cars.
The cost of buying the car and event fees etc is actually a relatively minor cost when full accounting is done. Some costs e.g. Tyres have actually reduced.


the thing about fromula vee is that they had an oppertunity to make it cheaper with the 1600cc rules and instead its now more expensive. i agree some costs have come down relatively, but these days of being able to build a chassis in the shed with some mates seems to have almost passed. i don't see why we need data loggers or short life sticky tyres. in formula vee and other lower levels of racing.

#78 jeremy durward

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 12:54

Originally posted by cheapracer


Cant agree, Motorsport can be cheap but there seems to be some forces that stop it being so. I've had many years of cheap racing - I just choose not to win.

Example is spec racing. If you have a spec racing series, why the F%*^ do you have to have expensive racing components throughout the car? Thats just bullshit, the cars are all the same it doesnt matter a shit if they all weigh 20kgs more. It doesnt matter if they all have fibreglass wings instead of carbon fibre.

I have approached CAMS 2 times over the years with extensive plans to run spec series using (fast) cars built (to plan by you) for under $5000, not interested. But if your a manufacturer its a different story, they will bend over backwards for you.

Anyway, thanks to the AMRS things are getting changed slowly unlike CAMS they welcome my ideas openly.


what kind of car are we talikin about here?

#79 NRoshier

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 02:11

Originally posted by jeremy durward


the thing about fromula vee is that they had an oppertunity to make it cheaper with the 1600cc rules and instead its now more expensive. i agree some costs have come down relatively, but these days of being able to build a chassis in the shed with some mates seems to have almost passed. i don't see why we need data loggers or short life sticky tyres. in formula vee and other lower levels of racing.


I've had a think about this and I have a few questions:
Why would they want to make the class cheaper and presumably hamper the cars in the process?
How do you think they would make the cars cheaper?
I believe the 1600 cars use a set of tyres per year?
I believe that I could build a competitive FVee car in my garage...but not with me driving it.

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#80 cheapracer

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 12:09

Originally posted by NRoshier
we will have to disagree on cheap, I think FVee is about as cheap as things can get with current regulations, but it would still be very possible to spend $50,000 on a national season.


Didnt you read my post?

"I choose not to win" - not winning doesnt cost $50,000.

FV's can also be bought for $1000 apparently, just ask Jeremy.

#81 cheapracer

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 12:35

Originally posted by jeremy durward

1. but these days of being able to build a chassis in the shed with some mates seems to have almost passed. 2. i don't see why we need data loggers or short life sticky tyres. in formula vee and other lower levels of racing.


1. Unless the rules are in place that allow exactly this. The fault lay in both the Governing body (CAMS in my case) for not instigating an affordable 'built to plan' exciting spec class and the lazy bods for not pushing for it. F1000 in the States could have been a winner, "min weight 1000lbs, steel tube frame" but they allowed too many other freedoms, so much so that the top rolling chassis's cost over $50,000 USD.

2. Because CAMS wants to cater for a couple of rich kids to come through the system and make it to F1, stuff the bulk of the bods.

Get 10 people together Jeremy, design your own car, all of you build them then go race together. Flood a current class and when you have enough runners TELL your Governing body to create your own class, they have no choice but to cater for you.

I'm not talking out of my ass either, I did exactly this within the MA (Motorcycling Australia).

#82 jeremy durward

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 12:47

Originally posted by NRoshier


I've had a think about this and I have a few questions:
Why would they want to make the class cheaper and presumably hamper the cars in the process?
How do you think they would make the cars cheaper?
I believe the 1600 cars use a set of tyres per year?
I believe that I could build a competitive FVee car in my garage...but not with me driving it.


i said the days of building a car are almost over, not over.

why would they want to make a class more expensive? especially with it being a class created to be cheap. and they could have made it cheaper and still faster than the previous 1200 class cars. engines could be made cheaper, with stricter rules(regarding engine internal coatings head mods outside of the as cast rule etc.) with a loss of only a couple of horsepower, which could be gotten straight back with an increase in restrictor size. i don't think data logging is needed for such a class either. the list goes on, all small things but they all add up.

as for tyres the old dunlops would last up to two seasons, when they brought in the american racers they were only good for a couple of meetings at first. although i do understand they are working on this, my comment was made thinking of other classes too.

#83 cheapracer

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 12:59

Originally posted by jeremy durward


1. i said the days of building a car are almost over, not over.

2. why would they want to make a class more expensive? especially with it being a class created to be cheap.


1. With people slowly moving away from racing to track day cars, the Governing bodies are soon going to have to start thinking about this and I think building cars will actually come back to a degree.

2. Go ask CAMS this and try to get a logical answer, I gave up years ago. :rolleyes:

#84 NRoshier

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 13:10

Originally posted by cheapracer


Didnt you read my post?

"I choose not to win" - not winning doesnt cost $50,000.

FV's can also be bought for $1000 apparently, just ask Jeremy.



Yes I read it and gave it due regard.
Not many want to run in the middle or at the tail end of a field, though of course most do.
Vehicle purchase costs and entry costs do not usually make up a large percentage of the costs of a season's motorsport unless you are running a hillclimb series.

#85 NRoshier

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 13:17

Originally posted by cheapracer


1. With people slowly moving away from racing to track day cars, the Governing bodies are soon going to have to start thinking about this and I think building cars will actually come back to a degree.

2. Go ask CAMS this and try to get a logical answer, I gave up years ago. :rolleyes:



Cams L2 lic have always made up the vast bulk of the lic's issued. The ratio seems to have increased slightly over the past 10 years but not in a statistically significant amount.

CAMS are usually lead by the view of the class reps are they not? I have tracked 10 changes over the past 2 years and all have come up from the ranks before becoming 'rules' per se. I'm not quite sure how else such changes would come about? AMRS has category owners and I'd imagine they would also not impose their own will without regard to the competitors. The AASA classes I am familiar with seems to run themselves in a somewhat parallel manner to CAMS AFAICT.

#86 jeremy durward

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 14:12

Originally posted by NRoshier



Yes I read it and gave it due regard.
Not many want to run in the middle or at the tail end of a field, though of course most do.
Vehicle purchase costs and entry costs do not usually make up a large percentage of the costs of a season's motorsport unless you are running a hillclimb series.


wait a minute. what kind of season are we talking about here? i really don't care if the touring car teams spend more during the season than the initial cost of the car, what about someone who wants to just go out and compete in their state, maybe do the national championship round.

#87 NRoshier

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 09:11

Good point.
I stated earlier a national championship was what I was considering, which means some interstate travel.
Within state, well lets see, I plan to do the MSCA sprint series in a 2lt sport scar and 5-6 hill climbs and have a budget of $5000 for the calender year.
This will break down roughly to $1000 tyres, entries $1000, $600 maintenance (almost all by myself, but pads, oil and brake fluid changes every two events etc etc all add up), $600+ Fuel, travel (tow car) $1000, food and support $the rest!
Of course any failures and damage add to this.
Now a friend who runs state circuit sedan spends $15,000 per season: Entries are much more expensive as it is 'proper racing' but a simple breakdown would be - one engine refresh per year, two sets of slicks, minimum of 3 drums of race fuel, all fluids, pads, some professional services, travel and accommodation for him and crew etc etc and damage repair etc. He is not at the pointy end of his class, but is high mid field in class.
I am interested in what you think is reasonable...mind you SA is an 'easy' state to do motorsport in in some respects.

#88 jeremy durward

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 21:44

yeah your right i am thinkin from a south aus point of view a bit, with only one track only an hour or so out of the cbd it does make it cheaper. however say you are spending $15,000 a year on entry servicing etc. a top line formula vee will set you back $30,000-$40,000 these days. with twenty seeming to be the minimum to even be within sight of the winners.

#89 NRoshier

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 12:12

I have no intention of spending $15,000, but it is not an unreasonable amount of money for a full season. Naturally there are many who spend less...and some who would spend that on tyres and fuel!

#90 jeremy durward

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 04:55

well yeah i think we can both agree some people have a definite skill spending money and that motor racing is an expensive past time. but i still believe some classes could be made cheaper and have relatively gone up in cost.

maybe cams have to look at running costs more? i mean a formula vee should be cheaper to run than a formula ford which should be cheaper than formula 3, i'm not saying that they aren't, i havn't looked into that enough to comment. but like you say it is more than the initial car cost. although i think formula vee buyers are being ripped off... well except me, i still think i got the deal of the century.

#91 NRoshier

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 10:07

Ah, we have been over this ground some time before. To have a car capable of a top five finish in FF on a walk in - walk out drive i.e. you do not own the car or anything, it would cost you around $250,000 per year. So a competitive FVee 1600 season at say $50,000 is one fifth of the cost.
CAMS have very little power to do anything about controlling costs, that should and nearly always does come from within the class.

#92 jeremy durward

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 10:42

Originally posted by NRoshier
Ah, we have been over this ground some time before. To have a car capable of a top five finish in FF on a walk in - walk out drive i.e. you do not own the car or anything, it would cost you around $250,000 per year. So a competitive FVee 1600 season at say $50,000 is one fifth of the cost.
CAMS have very little power to do anything about controlling costs, that should and nearly always does come from within the class.


of course the difference being i don't believe f vee has a national series but rather a one weekend championship. at state level i'd think that you'd find a much smaller difference. although i'd still expect to pay more for the FF season, especially in regards to any crash damage.

i'm starting to think we should have started a whole different thread to discuss this.

#93 cheapracer

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:25

Originally posted by NRoshier
I have no intention of spending $15,000, but it is not an unreasonable amount of money for a full season.


Just for interest, $15000 USD is the turning point where a large majority of people shy away from racing according to an extensive study by the SCCA (in the US).

#94 Catalina Park

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 07:03

It is about ten years since I was serious about racing but I was doing a season of HQ Holden racing for $6000. I was doing it cheap.
But I was beating blokes spending $30,000 and that made me feel good. :lol:

#95 NRoshier

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 08:28

well HQ's are no where near as popular as the costs went right up, the grids got smaller and the racing more strung out. Shame really.
At the moment IPRA is doing well.

#96 jeremy durward

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 09:15

Originally posted by NRoshier
well HQ's are no where near as popular as the costs went right up, the grids got smaller and the racing more strung out. Shame really.
At the moment IPRA is doing well.


exactly my origunal point... i think, it was so long ago :lol: . the costs of suposedly cheaper classes are going through the roof. i've been shocked to see classes that would previously attract 30+ fields now strugle or at least are much reduced.

#97 NRoshier

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 12:05

ah, but FVee is increasing everywhere I look...

#98 jeremy durward

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 12:11

yeah? i reckon its a bit less here in sa, i could be wrong. but i will admit its still a strong class. but i can see it getting less popular with the expense going up.

#99 JOHN PAGE

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 14:29

What happened to the original question about wings!!
If you want to know how I made mine send me an e-mail Jeremy but when making the front ones don't add separate rivetted on skid paltes under the end plates--------------I did -----------I suspect that the forward most rivets got rubbed off and the plate caught in the road and tore off the wing which resulted in a big accident!!
It does prove that the wings work!
JOHN PAGE

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#100 jeremy durward

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 04:48

Originally posted by JOHN PAGE
What happened to the original question about wings!!
If you want to know how I made mine send me an e-mail Jeremy but when making the front ones don't add separate rivetted on skid paltes under the end plates--------------I did -----------I suspect that the forward most rivets got rubbed off and the plate caught in the road and tore off the wing which resulted in a big accident!!
It does prove that the wings work!
JOHN PAGE


yeah we have been getting a bit off topic. do you mean plates to seal the endplate to the ground, as used to be run in f1 a few years abck?