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#151 Gemini

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:05

FSONE09 is so pretty.



I only tried few laps with few cars. While visuals are pretty I am disspapointed with on board sound. I can hardly hear proper downshifting. It just makes driving difficult as it's impossible to expect amount and time of engine braking when you don't hear downshifting.

I can't comment of physics yet after few lazy laps far from limit

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#152 noikeee

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 09:27

Yeah everyone's complaining about the lack of sound on downshifting. Sounds rock otherwise, though.

I'm at the stage that you are with physics, but I made a few quick laps last night with the Brawn and the Red Bull, and found out I could immediately push much much easier with the Brawn? :confused:

#153 mkoscevic

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 10:57

For me, I love rFactor for the F1 cars, but I'm not a fan of the multiplayer servers, and I can't seem to find a league that suits me really.


Try Tyka

#154 Palmero

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 16:26

Not keen on the FSONE 09 physics, tried a few teams, the cars feel a bit too agile and pointy, especially while accelerating. the Cars look great though i concede. Also the UI mod made making sure upgrades are installed slightly misleading at first.

MMG '07 still my prefered F1 mod.

#155 Jean Alesi 90

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 23:22

FSONE09 is so pretty.
356/4722223792_f248f5146d.jpg[/img][/url]


RFT2009 is better, for me.

#156 vodoun

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:40

RFT2009 is better, for me.


Ah, I see. Personally I can't stand it. It's too arcadey for me. When I drive it, it makes me think of F1:CE for the PS3. You get away with any mistake.

I use to like WCP until FSONE09 was released. WCP feels arcadey as well. Plus the worst part is the 3rd springs are greyed out on WCP. FSONE09 all the way for me until Codemasters releases for the PS3.

I'm still working with my setup.


#157 Palmero

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 23:48

Valencia is immense to drive...

My new favorite track in Rfactor. Qualifying in the MMG Mclaren '07 on this track is the most fun i have had offline.

#158 Chezrome

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 08:08

Apology to all.

In this thread I wrote I don't play some mods (2005, 1988) anymore because of the snap oversteer during shifting down. It turns out to be this problem was ALL driver-related. I've understood from a friend who recently got a new job (at Mercedes GP!) that if you have shift down for a chicane, for example (so from high speed to low speed) you should go from 7 tot 3 very quickly, wait, just before turn in shift to 2 and then only to 1. Otherwise the speed of the axle is to great for the gearbox, it seizes, and then you swap ends. I've gotten used to this new technique and I don't have problems anymore... :blush:

My friend had another great tip for all rFactor users. He said that most racing teams don't screw around with bump and rebound settings too much, because that is way too unpredictable. There's a base setup with bump and rebounds, and they induce more understeer or whatever in other ways. That was interesting, because I found that the default setup is in rFactor usually very driveable, but slow, because of the high wing levels. If you lower the winglevels, you get faster but the setup is effed up. This is what I found. Find the maximum topspeed for any given track. Reset winglevels and gears. Now the car probably oversteers in most corners. Untill two days ago I would start around fiddling with the slow bump and rebound settings.

There's an easier way. In the general setup page you can find the differential settings. The setup could look like this:

Power - 1
Coast - 5
preload- 5

My friend's advice was this: Oversteer in entry, raise the coast value. Oversteer in exit, raise the power value. I did at Monaco, with the F1 1988 mod, which oversteered like crazy, especially at Massenet. I knocked off about eight seconds of my time in the 1988 because I could finally brake deep into the corner.

Try it, you will like it.

Edited by Chezrome, 28 June 2010 - 08:10.


#159 noikeee

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:00

I couldn't drive the 88 cars because of the same issue, maybe I'll give a try again one of these days... Another tip about driving I've found helps a lot is to avoid using 1st gear as much as you can, you'll find that in most mods it's not needed for almost every corner except for extreme cases like the Monaco hairpin or the Monza chicanes. That avoids getting too much wheel-spin at corner exit.

As for FSOne 2009, I made a few stints with the Brawn on Melbourne yesterday and I'm liking it now, really enjoyable to drive. There are a few issues with the mod, the supersofts overheat like crazy, I've found the AI to be all over the place too with some cars being far too slow, the car feels perhaps slightly too slidey to be realistic for a modern F1, nevertheless it's great to drive on your own.

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#160 Chezrome

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 09:21

I couldn't drive the 88 cars because of the same issue, maybe I'll give a try again one of these days... Another tip about driving I've found helps a lot is to avoid using 1st gear as much as you can, you'll find that in most mods it's not needed for almost every corner except for extreme cases like the Monaco hairpin or the Monza chicanes. That avoids getting too much wheel-spin at corner exit.

As for FSOne 2009, I made a few stints with the Brawn on Melbourne yesterday and I'm liking it now, really enjoyable to drive. There are a few issues with the mod, the supersofts overheat like crazy, I've found the AI to be all over the place too with some cars being far too slow, the car feels perhaps slightly too slidey to be realistic for a modern F1, nevertheless it's great to drive on your own.


Before you do, there's a patch on the rfactor website that also helps with the oversteer during shifting down. But the downshift tip works on its own, I believe.

#161 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 11:27

What area of Mercedes GP does your friend work in? A lucky soul indeed!

#162 Chezrome

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Posted 28 June 2010 - 20:30


Tomorrow I'll play tennis with him, and I will ask him!



#163 mkoscevic

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Posted 29 June 2010 - 14:19

FSONE 2009 1.00 isn't ready for serious implementations in sim-racing leagues.

#164 Chezrome

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:49

What area of Mercedes GP does your friend work in? A lucky soul indeed!


Vehicle dynamics, strategy department.

It's funny. Before he had his interview I had to explain to him what probably was going to be his job. It was spot on, so I have some bragging rights now!



#165 Matt Hughes

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 14:58

Heh, I too have a chum working for an F1 team, and he pretty much sets his car up the same way your friend does re: coast etc, and he's tweaked the controller.ini himself as well. For what it's worth, he also reckons the WCP mod is the best there is in terms of feel and such, and given that he's tried the simulator he is a fairly good person for me to trust on that matter :). Not that he tells me anything about it obviously - he rather enjoys his job being secure ;).

Generally, his comment is that the difficulty of driving an F1 car in a simulator should never be having to concentrate on the fundamentals and should allow anyone to sit in and be about 5 or so seconds off a 'decent pace', with the difficulty being finding the confidence and technique to extract the most from the car. We find FSOne 2009 to be too twitchy in terms of steering and throttle for that.

Oh, and totally agree regarding the downshifting too. I always find myself getting snap oversteer and always thought it was due to me preferring a more rearward brake balance, but although that's kind of true, timing the shifts well really helps as well! We've been having some great battles around Valencia this past week as a result.

Edited by Matt Hughes, 30 June 2010 - 15:19.


#166 Chezrome

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 17:57

Heh, I too have a chum working for an F1 team, and he pretty much sets his car up the same way your friend does re: coast etc, and he's tweaked the controller.ini himself as well. For what it's worth, he also reckons the WCP mod is the best there is in terms of feel and such, and given that he's tried the simulator he is a fairly good person for me to trust on that matter :). Not that he tells me anything about it obviously - he rather enjoys his job being secure ;).

Generally, his comment is that the difficulty of driving an F1 car in a simulator should never be having to concentrate on the fundamentals and should allow anyone to sit in and be about 5 or so seconds off a 'decent pace', with the difficulty being finding the confidence and technique to extract the most from the car. We find FSOne 2009 to be too twitchy in terms of steering and throttle for that.

Oh, and totally agree regarding the downshifting too. I always find myself getting snap oversteer and always thought it was due to me preferring a more rearward brake balance, but although that's kind of true, timing the shifts well really helps as well! We've been having some great battles around Valencia this past week as a result.


Five seconds away from what is a decent time? I could play the 79 mod at 90 percent, and put the Ferrari on pole. But if I play the 2007 mod I have trouble beating Albers at 80 percent AI...

#167 Matt Hughes

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 19:26

Five seconds away from what is a decent time? I could play the 79 mod at 90 percent, and put the Ferrari on pole. But if I play the 2007 mod I have trouble beating Albers at 80 percent AI...


A decent human driver with practice. AI is all over the place on rFactor as you say - mods vary hugely.

I should also point out that by anybody, I meant people who generally have an idea of what an F1 car could do from games etc. Putting your other half in the thing and expecting them to magically go quickly is still going to not result in brilliant laptimes ;).

Edited by Matt Hughes, 30 June 2010 - 19:41.


#168 Chezrome

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 07:59

A decent human driver with practice. AI is all over the place on rFactor as you say - mods vary hugely.

I should also point out that by anybody, I meant people who generally have an idea of what an F1 car could do from games etc. Putting your other half in the thing and expecting them to magically go quickly is still going to not result in brilliant laptimes ;).


Oh wait a minute. I misunderstood your first post, I think. Are you saying that experienced gamers like ourselves (or amateur-racers) could get within five seconds of decent times in a REAL F1-car?

Surely not! Then again, this gives me an idea for an excellent thread. 'How fast would a fast sim-player be in a real F1 car?'





#169 Matt Hughes

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 14:36

Oh wait a minute. I misunderstood your first post, I think. Are you saying that experienced gamers like ourselves (or amateur-racers) could get within five seconds of decent times in a REAL F1-car?

Surely not! Then again, this gives me an idea for an excellent thread. 'How fast would a fast sim-player be in a real F1 car?'


Not in a real F1 car, but in an F1 team's simulator :). In the real car you'd obviously need the physical side of things too as well as other factors (actually being able to feel the car's momentum for example).

#170 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 18:11

Not in a real F1 car, but in an F1 team's simulator :). In the real car you'd obviously need the physical side of things too as well as other factors (actually being able to feel the car's momentum for example).


Im pretty certain a top sim racer could match a real F1 driver's times in an F1 team simulator. Some top sim racers have matched real open wheel racers on the real track. Google or youtube David Greco. This is a video of him pretty much matching a GP2 race winner in an old F3 car

I raced against David in the FSR world champs last year (never got near him!). However at the Istanbul round I beat a real life Porsche Supercup driver, Sean Edwards, at the Istanbul round :) He won the Silverstone supercup race in 08 for Konrad motorsports. Well, I passed him then crashed out passing the next group. I'll say I outpaced him ;)

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 01 July 2010 - 18:15.


#171 Brandz07

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 06:45

Im pretty certain a top sim racer could match a real F1 driver's times in an F1 team simulator. Some top sim racers have matched real open wheel racers on the real track. Google or youtube David Greco. This is a video of him pretty much matching a GP2 race winner in an old F3 car

I raced against David in the FSR world champs last year (never got near him!). However at the Istanbul round I beat a real life Porsche Supercup driver, Sean Edwards, at the Istanbul round :) He won the Silverstone supercup race in 08 for Konrad motorsports. Well, I passed him then crashed out passing the next group. I'll say I outpaced him ;)


david greco is unreal, as are most racers in FSR

#172 Chezrome

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 07:33

Not in a real F1 car, but in an F1 team's simulator :). In the real car you'd obviously need the physical side of things too as well as other factors (actually being able to feel the car's momentum for example).


Okay, yeah. I think one would be able to come within 10 seconds of the pace in a real F1 car - IF your neck would hold out for longer than 10 laps. Which I doubt. I am pretty sure that after three laps one is so knackered you have to stop driving.

Edited by Chezrome, 02 July 2010 - 07:34.


#173 Lights

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 07:52

david greco is unreal, as are most racers in FSR

A lot out there can match or beat him, but not many have any real life racing experience like he does.

#174 Palmero

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 10:53

I think most keen sim drivers could come very close to real F1 times given a reasonable amount of tracktime to get a feel for the car, and assuming you put in the physical preperation.

Steve Sutcliffe was basically matching the BAR test driver after a few laps, albeit he has some real experience in TVRs and touring cars.

I think being a racing driver involves as much opportunity as it does skill, even up to F1 level(hi Piquet Jr.. Badoer.. IDE!!). Not to detract anything from the Sennas, Hamiltons, Schumachers etc who are undoubtedly rare and exceptional talents(well only one of the Schumachers and Sennas but you catch the drift..).

Edited by Palmero, 02 July 2010 - 10:55.


#175 Brandz07

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Posted 02 July 2010 - 16:50

A lot out there can match or beat him, but not many have any real life racing experience like he does.


yeah, hes 5th in the standings atm so theres a few that are on his level, im associated with the DHR-Simcraft team atm doing there graphics work :)

#176 MikeJuk

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 09:35

I think there's a huge gulf in between sim drivers and the top real world drivers. Thats why the top sim drivers don't impress when they get to try a real race car - even with Sims such as iRacing it doesn't come close enough to replicating the experience. Fear, physical demands and car feel are just a few of the things that sim racers never have to deal with.

#177 Brandz07

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 14:08

I think there's a huge gulf in between sim drivers and the top real world drivers. Thats why the top sim drivers don't impress when they get to try a real race car - even with Sims such as iRacing it doesn't come close enough to replicating the experience. Fear, physical demands and car feel are just a few of the things that sim racers never have to deal with.


i think its the fact that they need more time in the car and they dont get it when they try the real race cars, they clearly know how to drive

#178 MikeJuk

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Posted 03 July 2010 - 20:08

I'm sure they would be faster than most normal people for sure and more time would help of course but the techniques that work on racing sims are limited in the real world. I race in iRacing all the time and the 'aliens' tend to use methods that simply won't work in real cars due to the wear on the cars components and the lack of accurate tyre modeling in sims.



#179 karlth

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 00:26

I'm sure they would be faster than most normal people for sure and more time would help of course but the techniques that work on racing sims are limited in the real world. I race in iRacing all the time and the 'aliens' tend to use methods that simply won't work in real cars due to the wear on the cars components and the lack of accurate tyre modeling in sims.


How then? I have raced a lot in iRacing too (and rFactor as well) and have found when comparing telemetry that the speed difference is simply due to better driving on their part.

There is no magic trick.

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#180 Chezrome

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 06:21

How then? I have raced a lot in iRacing too (and rFactor as well) and have found when comparing telemetry that the speed difference is simply due to better driving on their part.

There is no magic trick.


No magic trick, no, the freakish simraces are very quick on itself, but the last two seconds there are tricks for.

One trick is to set the gears very high on hotlaps. In real life it would murder the clutch and you would not be able to get away at the start. In one lap it is not a problem.

Other trick: set the springs very, very, very stiff. Some very fast people used that trick in GP Legends and they were very fast.

But the point is: unless you are very good, you are not able to drive around with these settings. A bit like Hamilton who once drove a GP2 race with about level 1 rearwing...

#181 Lights

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 07:17

No magic trick, no, the freakish simraces are very quick on itself, but the last two seconds there are tricks for.

One trick is to set the gears very high on hotlaps. In real life it would murder the clutch and you would not be able to get away at the start. In one lap it is not a problem.

Other trick: set the springs very, very, very stiff. Some very fast people used that trick in GP Legends and they were very fast.

But the point is: unless you are very good, you are not able to drive around with these settings. A bit like Hamilton who once drove a GP2 race with about level 1 rearwing...

The setup tweaks you mention are extremely vulnerable to the specific game+mod combination you're driving. Overall, it aren't some 'tricks' that make the difference. When I was at the height of my speed, I still lost a second, with identical setups.

What were the factors I lost it in? 1) Precision and consistency 2) Brake control 3) Throttle control 4) Amount of practice. Certainly no tricks like the ones mentioned above was going to get me any closer. I just wasn't good enough.

Edited by Lights, 04 July 2010 - 07:18.


#182 MikeJuk

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 09:44

I'm talking about visual references based on the edges of the screen. Wheel inputs that work in sims but would wreck tyres in real life such as massive stearing input on turn in used by many aliens, Unrealistic brake plus throttle aplications to stabilize the car under trail braking that would break real mechanical parts. These are all skills that the sim racing aliens use and they're extremely hard to do but do not a real world racer make.

Also you only know slip angle in sims because of and tyre squeal noise and other visual ques, in real life you will have a 'seat of the pants feel' for when traction is broken and your tyres are slipping - not everyone has this feel. As for force feedback I know many extremely fast drivers who have it turned off completely and have very loose wheeel settings so they can make quicker adjustments than they could with a real wheel under real worlds loads.

Extremely quick sim racers are very talented but it's a different type of talent than the type you need to drive real world cars. Sims are getting better though ( I love the track laser scanning) and I love driving them myself - I'm sure the mclaren simulator is magnitudes better than anything we're likely to get our hands on but it's shrouded in secrecy :eek:





#183 Lights

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 10:28

I'm talking about visual references based on the edges of the screen. Wheel inputs that work in sims but would wreck tyres in real life such as massive stearing input on turn in used by many aliens, Unrealistic brake plus throttle aplications to stabilize the car under trail braking that would break real mechanical parts. These are all skills that the sim racing aliens use and they're extremely hard to do but do not a real world racer make.

Also you only know slip angle in sims because of and tyre squeal noise and other visual ques, in real life you will have a 'seat of the pants feel' for when traction is broken and your tyres are slipping - not everyone has this feel. As for force feedback I know many extremely fast drivers who have it turned off completely and have very loose wheeel settings so they can make quicker adjustments than they could with a real wheel under real worlds loads.

Extremely quick sim racers are very talented but it's a different type of talent than the type you need to drive real world cars. Sims are getting better though ( I love the track laser scanning) and I love driving them myself - I'm sure the mclaren simulator is magnitudes better than anything we're likely to get our hands on but it's shrouded in secrecy :eek:

Yes, that's somewhat true, except for the force feedback part. If anything, that's the best replacement a simracer can have for the 'seat of the pants feel', IMO. And I knew fast drivers with or without it, it didn't really make the difference, it's just personal.

#184 karlth

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 10:37

I'm talking about visual references based on the edges of the screen. Wheel inputs that work in sims but would wreck tyres in real life such as massive stearing input on turn in used by many aliens, Unrealistic brake plus throttle aplications to stabilize the car under trail braking that would break real mechanical parts. These are all skills that the sim racing aliens use and they're extremely hard to do but do not a real world racer make.


Those are certainly not "skills" that any sim racing aliens I've witnessed use. As I said I've had compared my telemetry against some of them and they are faster because they always hit the apex, they always brake with precision and they drive the fastest racing line.

I'm not saying though that some sim racers haven't exploited weaknesses in certain simulators: GPL had a flaw during the early days which allowed unrealistic suspension settings but that was patched and GP3 or 4 could be driven in slow motion to achieve perfect laptimes.

Extremely quick sim racers are very talented but it's a different type of talent than the type you need to drive real world cars.


Well the winner of the Jetta series in iRacing last year was offered a possibility of a drive in the official 2010 Jetta series as an award. I don't think he had any previous real racing experience but nevertheless he not only managed to get through driver selection into the series but also won the fifth race of the season last week.






#185 MikeJuk

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 12:53

If you don't recognise the techniques that I've mentioned you're not looking closely enough at the replays and telemetry data because they're widely recognised and talked about.

The guy you mention, Wyatt Gooden who is sponsored by iRacing and won the iRacing jetta cup has been racing real world carts since he was 10 much like the way most of the current F1 drivers started out. I didn't say that sims aren't a useful tool, it's obvious they are but because you are fast one one doesn't mean you will be fast in the other. Different skillset in many respects.

This is my personal opinion and I fully expect some people, especially in sim racing circles, to disagree with it.

Edited by MikeJuk, 04 July 2010 - 12:54.


#186 karlth

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 14:21

If you don't recognise the techniques that I've mentioned you're not looking closely enough at the replays and telemetry data because they're widely recognised and talked about.


I have been looking very closely and also I haven't seen them widely recognized anywhere, apart from the GPL example mentioned. Usually what I've found out is that people who complain about aliens abusing the physics in the simulators simply aren't quick enough themselves.

There are of course differences between driving racings cars and simulators but the underlying principles of fast driving remain the same. That does not though mean that Huttu would be willing to go flat through 130R in real life. :)






#187 IFRLIceman

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Posted 04 July 2010 - 17:12

If you don't recognise the techniques that I've mentioned you're not looking closely enough at the replays and telemetry data because they're widely recognised and talked about.

The guy you mention, Wyatt Gooden who is sponsored by iRacing and won the iRacing jetta cup has been racing real world carts since he was 10 much like the way most of the current F1 drivers started out. I didn't say that sims aren't a useful tool, it's obvious they are but because you are fast one one doesn't mean you will be fast in the other. Different skillset in many respects.

This is my personal opinion and I fully expect some people, especially in sim racing circles, to disagree with it.

You know he won the TDi Cup race at Mid-Ohio in real life, right?

#188 MikeJuk

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 14:03

Yes it was mentioned several posts above - what's your point?

#189 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 16:11

In top level sim racing practice makes more difference than most other factors. The only race I had time to properly prepare for last year (ie more than 2 hours practice) was spa when I had some time off work. Most these top sim racers are either perfecting their setups for 5-10hrs a day in the weeks leading up to races or other guys in the team are then they benefit from the team effort. For Spa I spent about 20-30 hours spread over two weeks to get a really drivable low downforce setup and was in the hunt for pole (ended up 6th) and set 3rd fastest race lap. I love spa, but I didnt suddenly get that much better, it was the hours spent pouring over data imported into Motec refining the aero, suspension, diff and gear settings.

The beauty of real racing is the amount you can practice is limited. A GP is a truer reflection of the ability of the driver than a sim race IMO because largely in an F1 weekend the drivers have driven exactly the same number of laps as each other on any given weekend.

In FSR I typically did 50-150 laps of practice for each race due to having a job and a girlfriend. For Spa I did about 500. Alot of the top FSR guys (kids mostly!) are doing 1500 laps plus per race. It just doesnt relate to real motorsport in the same way. Everyone does, however, have exactly the same car and setup options which is fairer than F1.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 05 July 2010 - 16:14.


#190 BMWdriver

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 10:11

For all who want have own helmet in rfactor. Here is template for rFactor helmet to creating own design of helmet to rFactor:
http://sharecash.org...php?file=611391


#191 Chezrome

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 11:13

For all who want have own helmet in rfactor. Here is template for rFactor helmet to creating own design of helmet to rFactor:
http://sharecash.org...php?file=611391


Excuse me. Don't click this link. You have to fill in a survey before you get the download. These kinds of links are very dangerous, because they either force you to enter your e-mail and other private information, or use the link to get access to your computer. BMW driver, I believe your good intentions, but don't post links like these.



#192 Matt Hughes

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 11:41

It is a little more tricky than just having your own helmet design and pasting it in sometimes, too. Some mods actually have the helmets as individual shaped textures lodged in the car files that you'd need to edit to have your helmet on display (WCP being one of them).

#193 BMWdriver

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 15:45

I created this same time ago. This is for RFT shape. i upload on Sharecash because all your download I get $$$. This will be recompensation for time which I spent on this template. You dont must fill real data. I will be happy for all downloads.

#194 Brandz07

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 21:51

I created this same time ago. This is for RFT shape. i upload on Sharecash because all your download I get $$$. This will be recompensation for time which I spent on this template. You dont must fill real data. I will be happy for all downloads.


somebody ban this guy.

#195 Chezrome

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 10:02

In top level sim racing practice makes more difference than most other factors. The only race I had time to properly prepare for last year (ie more than 2 hours practice) was spa when I had some time off work. Most these top sim racers are either perfecting their setups for 5-10hrs a day in the weeks leading up to races or other guys in the team are then they benefit from the team effort. For Spa I spent about 20-30 hours spread over two weeks to get a really drivable low downforce setup and was in the hunt for pole (ended up 6th) and set 3rd fastest race lap. I love spa, but I didnt suddenly get that much better, it was the hours spent pouring over data imported into Motec refining the aero, suspension, diff and gear settings.

The beauty of real racing is the amount you can practice is limited. A GP is a truer reflection of the ability of the driver than a sim race IMO because largely in an F1 weekend the drivers have driven exactly the same number of laps as each other on any given weekend.

In FSR I typically did 50-150 laps of practice for each race due to having a job and a girlfriend. For Spa I did about 500. Alot of the top FSR guys (kids mostly!) are doing 1500 laps plus per race. It just doesnt relate to real motorsport in the same way. Everyone does, however, have exactly the same car and setup options which is fairer than F1.


I wrote in an earlier post (but I will elaborate more): a chum of mine recently got a job at Mercedes F1, but even before that he told me that in F1 the teams DO NOT screw around with the setup a lot. They have a basesetup, if that works, they first and foremost concentrate on the tyres, and making the cars more predictable for the drivers. Hence a lot of stuff is done with camber, tyrepressures and for the chassis fiddling around with the diff. Taking a lot of wing of the car and then try to rebalance the car with the springs, bumpsettings etcetera (I've done it, and I usually fail) makes the car unpredictable for the drivers, screws up the tyrestemperatures, and cost you a lot of work while at the same you could be driving laps.

I've taken this new approach to rFactor and lo and behold, it works. I used to take a lot of rear wing off to get an advantage on the AI-cars, and then tried to rebalance the car. What I do now is take a peek at the trackmap, find the topspeed driven in reality, and generally aim for a wingsetup that gives me a SLOWER topspeed than the AI-cars. That makes the car easier to drive, I can go on the limit easier (because the car is grippier), and so drive a lot more laps with confidence. Instead of: finding new brakepoints, other steeringinputs, etecetera.

And even nicer: I discovered that with a lower topspeed setting my gears are generally shorter, so I get out of the corners earlier. And that is where you can beat the AI. Not in braking. Never in braking!

Edited by Chezrome, 08 July 2010 - 10:03.


#196 Lights

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 11:56

I wrote in an earlier post (but I will elaborate more): a chum of mine recently got a job at Mercedes F1, but even before that he told me that in F1 the teams DO NOT screw around with the setup a lot. They have a basesetup, if that works, they first and foremost concentrate on the tyres, and making the cars more predictable for the drivers. Hence a lot of stuff is done with camber, tyrepressures and for the chassis fiddling around with the diff. Taking a lot of wing of the car and then try to rebalance the car with the springs, bumpsettings etcetera (I've done it, and I usually fail) makes the car unpredictable for the drivers, screws up the tyrestemperatures, and cost you a lot of work while at the same you could be driving laps.

I've taken this new approach to rFactor and lo and behold, it works. I used to take a lot of rear wing off to get an advantage on the AI-cars, and then tried to rebalance the car. What I do now is take a peek at the trackmap, find the topspeed driven in reality, and generally aim for a wingsetup that gives me a SLOWER topspeed than the AI-cars. That makes the car easier to drive, I can go on the limit easier (because the car is grippier), and so drive a lot more laps with confidence. Instead of: finding new brakepoints, other steeringinputs, etecetera.

And even nicer: I discovered that with a lower topspeed setting my gears are generally shorter, so I get out of the corners earlier. And that is where you can beat the AI. Not in braking. Never in braking!

That's because F1 teams have tons of setup and track info before they even get there. In simracing, a new mod or track version just erases most of it so you have no choice but to test a lot to bring your setup to perfection. Your comparison to AI cars isn't convincing really, as that's nothing compared to the highest level of simracing. If changing the wings and gears a bit works against those opponents, fine, but that doesn't mean anything. Perhaps I'm misreading your post but as a responds to Tenmantaylor it's a bit odd to talk about AI and basic setup options as opposed to his text about FSR and complex setup work.

#197 Chezrome

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 16:45

That's because F1 teams have tons of setup and track info before they even get there. In simracing, a new mod or track version just erases most of it so you have no choice but to test a lot to bring your setup to perfection. Your comparison to AI cars isn't convincing really, as that's nothing compared to the highest level of simracing. If changing the wings and gears a bit works against those opponents, fine, but that doesn't mean anything. Perhaps I'm misreading your post but as a responds to Tenmantaylor it's a bit odd to talk about AI and basic setup options as opposed to his text about FSR and complex setup work.


I am sorry that I am so odd to talk about my humble experience with AI-racing. From now on I will leave these discussions to people who know what they are talking about.

#198 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:46

Good posts Chezrome and Lights :wave:

Indeed, F1 teams have 10s if not 100s of massively intelligent engineers and millions of pounds worth of analysis and simulator technology to help them develop setups before even turning up at the track. Not just driving simulators, they have test rigs to to put a full size car on that recreates the bumps of the track surface to get the suspension settings optimised. On top of this most of them have years of data to fall back on. As a sim racer, the only way to generate this data is to turn laps, change setup, check tyre temps and laptime, do more laps, ad infinitum. Therefore he who practices most often does best providing skill level is similar.

It makes total sense real F1 teams don't do sweeping setup changes during a weekend. There just isn't time to be opening the gearbox up to change the ratios between each run. The teams have to decide which rear wing to use a few weeks before the race. In sim racing you can change the ratios, the brake duct sizes and completely change the downforce level in a couple of clicks. This might take weeks of making new parts in F1.

I think there's a lot of mileage (scuse the pun) in sim racing leagues having limited practice like in real F1 to make the playing field more level. This could be easily enforced in sims like iRacing. Variable conditions such as wind speed and direction, temperature, track surface and weather would also level the playing field a bit as those last few tenths of perfection achieved through repetition of identical conditions. Part of the fun of racing is learning and improving.

#199 Lights

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:00

Yes Tenmantaylor, I think it would be awesome if a league like FSR could somehow implement a limited amount of practice, following the same hours as they get in Formula 1 for instance. It would make it more interesting to participate for people who don't have the option of testing hours every day. But I don't see it happening.

I am sorry that I am so odd to talk about my humble experience with AI-racing. From now on I will leave these discussions to people who know what they are talking about.

No, I'm sorry. Wasn't trying to attack you or your post. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way. :up:

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#200 Chezrome

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 16:39

Yes Tenmantaylor, I think it would be awesome if a league like FSR could somehow implement a limited amount of practice, following the same hours as they get in Formula 1 for instance. It would make it more interesting to participate for people who don't have the option of testing hours every day. But I don't see it happening.


No, I'm sorry. Wasn't trying to attack you or your post. Hope you didn't take it the wrong way. :up:


Everything is alright again. :up: