56 replies to this topic

[MKIVJ6]

Anyone have any thoughts about this car?

Thanks in Advance

http://www.rmauction...8&SaleCode=AZ08

[raceannouncer2003]

Apparently it's too late to enter the Mille Miglia this year...but check the brake pedal anyway!

Vince H.

[Andrew Fellowes]

When 4509 and 4510 were in the UK there were enough spares with them to just about build another car. Joel Finn acquired these spares when 4509 was sold.
Looks like they have become the basis for a recreated car.

Andrew

[Jerry Entin]

Andrew I agree.

[mx906]

Has been for sale through Charles Bronson in California for a few years, without takers. Joel Finn had a rolling chassis in the '60s (s/n 4504). He never owned a chassis with s/n 4505 as far as I know.

Jerry

[Jerry Entin]

JMG: The current owner has been trying to sell this replica for the past 6 years, without success because auctions houses initially involved had more sense than RM and pulled out. The car was built by Forristall in Texas, copying the Kimberly chassis 4504. Too bad, since 4504 had different lines than 4505. Later on those Mille Miglia air scoops on the front fenders were added. It has to look real, you know.

Its convaluted history is based on a Joel Finn article from the late 70s, written for the English Maserati Club. It contained a lot of mistakes, but obviously, if you try to auction off this type of contraption, any misguided article will help.

The real chassis 4505 was sold to John Edgar after two races as part of the factory team, the Mille Miglia and the Nurburgring 1000 KM. As was customary, when sold to a private owner the Maserati was renumbered. It became 4506 and still exists.
Willem Oosthoek.

Buyer Beware!

[antonvrs]

I know someone(name withheld to protect the innocent, the guilty and all others) who worked for Forristal's in the '80s and they had a jig to build 450s chassis frames. Enough said.
Anton

[RA Historian]

At least the auction ad faintly alludes to "some questions" about its legality, but that will not stop them from trying to sell it for big bucks. As for me, I completely agree with Jerry Entin's post two places above. To be very blunt, this car is a fake.

[David M. Kane]

Any idea which chassis Tom Hollfelder owns and races?

[MKIVJ6]

Thanks Very Much!

[Doug Nye]

I never cease to be amazed by the propensity for self-deception that is displayed by so many historic car purchasers. The most pitiable are tyro 'investors', tucked-up like a turkey by unscrupulous vendors and their agents, aided and abetted by the would be investor's own readiness to believe and trust what lies he has been told, or what BS he has composed inside his own head.

Whatever proofs of history might be provided, some will always pay over the odds for a heap of made-last-Tuesday umbala.

That's not to say the MLTU is worthless.

In many cases far from it.

But it's only really worth the cost of its constituent parts, plus whatever premium a would-be purchaser might perhaps place upon it as a useable piece of sports equipment.

The assembly might have no worthwhile provenance, nor even any other reason to exist apart from some hobbledeehoy having perceiving its construction/faking as a money-making project...but in so many cases these people really do find a live victim ready and willing to open his wallet and pay real money for an unreal 'investment'.

Time after time this gullibility - or the notion they they themselves will be able to turn a quick profit "because nobody out there really knows about the history of these cars" or because "it looks just like the photograph" - has left me shaking my head in complete wonderment...

DCN

[antonvrs]

Come on Doug, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?
(BTW, I agree completely)
Anton

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Any idea which chassis Tom Hollfelder owns and races?

4510, I believe, ex-J Frank Harrison (and later John Fellowes in the UK)

[Jerry Entin]

David Kane:
Tom Hollfelder's car is chassis 4510, the last 450S built and delivered to J. Frank Harrison in Chattanooga in March 1958. It was raced by Dan Clippenger, Walt Cline and Jim Hall, and practiced by Jim Jeffords and Fred Gamble.
Copies of the 450S book are still availble from the author at: willemoosthoek@aol.com

[Todd]

Cloning Maserati sportsracers doesn't bother me. I remember when I was a kid reading a Road & Track story called something like, "Disaster in Caracas." The before and after photos of the Maseratis were heartbreaking, and I'm glad there are at least some cars around now that are as beautiful as the real Maseratis were when they started the race.

[Jerry Entin]

Tom Hollfelder in his 450S #4510.
photo Tom Hollfelder collection

[coco]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Andrew I agree.

Andrew and all,
Willem Oosthoek and I discussed this car many times with other members of a forum that is long gon (unfortunately...!). We compared old (!!) photos of #4505 and #4506 (the John Edgar-car, today with Doc Bscher in the Fatherland). None of the Maserati racing cars was exactly like another but this two cars looked absolutley identical on all old photos from that aera (despite the strange "horns" Moss had around the holes for brake cooling at the Ring). Even every single rivet around the front nose of each of both cars are identical positioned.

Strangely the race-history of #4505 came to an end after Stirling Moss lost a wheel in the 1000 km Nuerburgring `57. But shortly after that date Edgar got his #4506.....! I am very certain that #4505 was re-numbered by the factory to #4506 and delivered to the US as his car was much delayed now and Edgar became unpatient! #4505 never appeared again - until it showed up with Finn.

Steve Hart, the well known Maserati restorer from the UK (he alone restored 1 450S and lo less than 5 300S and various 250F) inspected "4505" some years ago in CA and found only the engine as beeing original and the front hups of the car together with some other minor parts.

I don`t believe that "4505" today is a genuine car!

Ciao!
Walter

[D-Type]

So, really this car is on a par with the Cameron Millar replica 250F's, particularly '2522', the recreated ERA AJM1 and the Lancia D50's except that it claims a true identity.

But having said that: how genuine is a Maserati that has been converted to have a Chevrolet engine installed and then converted back; or an E-Type ERA that had a Jaguar engine and was later restored witha prewar spec ERA engine; or a Connaught that had a Jaguar engine and then a Connaught engine reinstalled and had streamliner and Syracuse bodies at various stages both in period and afterwards; or a Lotus 18 that became an autocross racer before being restored or re-created? Etc.

I make no mention of certain Alfa Romeo sports cars as I don't know the full story and don't wish to be on the receiving end of any speculative litigation.

The only real difference is in what an owner claims the car is.

Edited by D-Type, 09 September 2014 - 21:25.

[tuscan4000]

Good bless the mighty 450S (http://www.0-100.it/.../450s_engl.html), , the most beautiful and incredible race car of the '50s (except, M A Y B E, the Ferrari 315S #0684)

Hope Maserati will come back, one day, even if only with a concept, with her heir!!!!!!!

Regards to all

Alvise

--------
Web: http://www.0-100.it
Mail: info@0-100.it

[coco]

Originally posted by tuscan4000
Good bless the mighty 450S (http://www.0-100.it/.../450s_engl.html), , the most beautiful and incredible race car of the '50s (except, M A Y B E, the Ferrari 315S #0684)

Hope Maserati will come back, one day, even if only with a concept, with her heir!!!!!!!

Regards to all

Alvise

--------
Web: http://www.0-100.it
Mail: info@0-100.it

Alvise, the mighty 450S -when well prepared in those days (and today!)- steamrolled EVERY Ferrari! Look at the timetable of Sebring 1957!

Ciao!
Walter

[David Birchall]

My only contact with a 450S was at the Monterey Historic Weekend in the late seventies. An Englishman by the name of Cohen-forget his first name but it wasn't David Cohen-raced a 450S and then was invited to show it at Pebble Beach Conkers. We had become friendly at the races and we were standing around bemoaning the bullsh** that is Pebble Beach. To spice things up, I bet him ten bucks that he wouldn't spin the wheels all the way to the reviewing stand. He said "Just watch me!" And he did!! Made a hell of a bloody mess and was never invited back....But I don't think he cared.
Which car was that?

[Jerry Entin]

David, That was Howard Cohen at the wheel of chassis 4508, the Temple Buell car raced by Masten Gregory, Carroll Shelby, Maurice Trintignant, Dabney Collins, Lloyd Ruby, Jim Hall and Bill Kimberly, and practiced by Fangio in Havana in 1958, before some unpleasantness occurred.
Willem Oosthoek.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by D-Type
So, really this car is on a par with the Cameron Millar replica 250F's, particularly '2522', the recreated ERA AJM1 and the Lancia D50's except that it claims a true identity.

Ah, and therein lies a very big difference!!

[Cynic2]

Well, yes, claiming a real identity for what appears to be a newly constructed replica chassis, newly constructed body, and what is quite likely (as I understand it) a Maserati marine engine. Perhaps the front hubs really are original to 4505. Is this enough to claim the identity of the real 4505?


I also hope the wire wheels are somewhat better than on a "350 S" which was presented to me, riding on genuine "Barrami" wire wheels, made in India. (I have to say they were actually good copies of the correct Borranis.)


And as an aside, as I recall Howard Cohen was a Bay-area property developer whose driving was somewhat limited by a lack of talent. His being asked not to return to Monterey had nothing to do with the Maserati, but rather by creating an extremely short-nose D Type Jaguar. I think he might have wrecked a Ferrari as well. Steve Earle can live with wheelspin; it's crashing good cars into barriers and other cars which annoys him.

[mariner]

As a non Maserati type of person I looked at the link above which mentions the "sea"/marine versions of the Maserati V-8 with up to 6.4 litres and 580 bhp. Did any of these engines find their way into a racing car ( Maserati or otherwise)? I ask because I assume they were developed about the same time as the big, cheap,reliable US stock block V-8's came to prominence.

[David McKinney]

Yup! Scuderia Buell ran one in a 450S, driven (IIRC) by Shelby
(or am I confusing it with the "little" 5.7 the same team ran for Gregory?

[Jerry Entin]

Mariner:
Various marine engines found their way into 450S models and even into the 1962 Tipo 151 Maserati. John Edgar and Temple Buell had 5.7 liter V8 Maserati marine engines installed into chassis 4506 and 4508 during 1959. John Edgar's Chassis 4506 also carried a 6.3-liter NASCAR Pontiac V8 [acquired from Ray Fox according to Jim Rathmann] in 1958/early 59 but this turned out to be a disaster due to on-going head gaskets problems.
All research Willem Oosthoek

[Jerry Entin]

David McKinney: You are a little confused. Masten Gregory drove #4508 for Temple Buell with a 4.7 Maserati engine in 1957. The car didn't have the larger 5.7 engine #4511 installed until November of 1958 and Masten never drove the car with this engine in it.
all research Willem Oosthoek.

[Sharman]

David
I think you will find that the gentleman's name was Owen not Cohen, Robert tranter Owen if I am right and i think he is still with us. He was invloved in Ken Yeates operation in the Manchester area.
John

[Jerry Entin]

Sharman: Robert Owen may well have been at Pebble Beach in the late 70s, but my records have Howard Cohen and chassis 4508 at Monterey in 1979.
Willem Oosthoek.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Jerry Entin
David McKinney: You are a little confused. Masten Gregory drove #4508 for Temple Buell with a 4.7 Maserati engine in 1957. The car didn't have the larger 5.7 engine #4511 installed until November of 1958 and Masten never drove the car with this engine in it.
all research Willem Oosthoek.

OK - memory lapse. Apologies

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by mariner
As a non Maserati type of person I looked at the link above which mentions the "sea"/marine versions of the Maserati V-8 with up to 6.4 litres and 580 bhp. Did any of these engines find their way into a racing car ( Maserati or otherwise)? I ask because I assume they were developed about the same time as the big, cheap,reliable US stock block V-8's came to prominence.

I was offered this for its engine way back late 70's I think, I have written on the back 18'3", Tipo 59 Marine engine. What size was that?
I hope it survived as a complete unit.
Andrew

[bradbury west]

I recall in the 1990s that Burkhardt von Schenk, OTOMH, raced a 450S with a 6.4ltr marine engine, presumably period correct, at Coys Silverstone races etc.
Roger Lund

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by bradbury west
I recall in the 1990s that Burkhardt von Schenk, OTOMH, raced a 450S with a 6.4ltr marine engine, presumably period correct, at Coys Silverstone races etc.
Roger Lund

Thomas Bscher

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Thomas Bscher

David, thanks for the corection, hence OTOMH, rather than putting ... "or Thomas Bscher", I knew it was one or the other, just thought BvSch was more Maserati orientated. Should have checked the programme
RL

[Sharman]

So
Which car did Bob Owen have in the 60/70s in the UK?

[David McKinney]

I don't recall Bob Owens ever racing a 450S, though he did campaign several later-model Maserati sportscars

[coco]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Thomas Bscher

Bscher owns the #4506, the car in question that Osthoek and I believe was the true #ex-4505 that Moss had in the unlucky 1957 MM and 1000 km `Ring the same year. Bscher had for some years a boat-engine installed that came from the ROSSO BIANCO COLLECTION of Peter Kaus from whom he purchased the car. Today the correct engine is back in #4506!

Ciao!
Walter

[Sharman]

David
I'm fairly sure he had a 450s, Alan Cox, do you have Oulton programmes of late 60s early 70s which might confirm tnis?
John

[Andrew Fellowes]

I think he had two Birdcages, but I dont have the details to hand.

Andrew
Edit.

[Doug Nye]

I recall this one as being simply too narrow-tracked for comfort, colossal punch, rather hefty steering (which surprised me) and generally not a patch on the 300S 6-cylinder for sheer enjoyability. Carroll Shelby's famous definition of 'a blivot' springs to mind...

Don't ask me what chassis serial this one carried. I cannot remember and I'm not going to hunt for it. I do remember the ignition key was missing and we fired it up by jamming a chubby screwdriver in the keyhole instead. And no, that's not totally my personal mass weighing-down the car, it's on full noise here out of a slow corner.

DCN

[Jerry Entin]

Hey Doug: That good looking dark haired stunt double appears to be driving the ex J Frank Harrison car chassis 4510. Now owned by Tom Hollfelder.
research Willem Oosthoek.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Don't ask me what chassis serial this one carried. I cannot remember and I'm not going to hunt for it. I do remember the ignition key was missing and we fired it up by jamming a chubby screwdriver in the keyhole instead. DCN [/B]

How sad that the key had gone. I still think 4509 & 10 were the best looking of them all. Doug I would agree, its like chalk and cheese compared to a 300S but I'm no driver. My memories are of Charlie Lucas in 4509, opposite lock out of Woodcote, no arm waving, no sawing at the wheel, using every inch of tarmac, flicking the grass on the exit, he made it look so easy.

4510 in Italy, on the left with glasses is Trevor Stokes who looked after and loved this car for so many years.

Willem you will see the Le Mans sticker is still on the car, the Hon-John insisted it stay there!
Andrew

[Andrew Fellowes]

While on the subject of Italy, I can't let the moment pass without posting this photo, with just a little irony to it!

The time control was inside the factory, sitting beyond it was Enzo himself, when he saw the car his face lit up with the biggest smile, I have often wondered what he was thinking. The reason for stopping here was that I was waiting for the support car to do a driver swap.

[Frank S]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


I recall this one as being simply too narrow-tracked for comfort, colossal punch, rather hefty steering (which surprised me) and generally not a patch on the 300S 6-cylinder for sheer enjoyability. Carroll Shelby's famous definition of 'a blivot' springs to mind...

Don't ask me what chassis serial this one carried. I cannot remember and I'm not going to hunt for it. I do remember the ignition key was missing and we fired it up by jamming a chubby screwdriver in the keyhole instead. And no, that's not totally my personal mass weighing-down the car, it's on full noise here out of a slow corner.

DCN

When I looked under the bonnet of the Hollfelder car, the first thing that struck me was the number of "U-joints" in the steering shaft. I conjected toss-and-steer-with-throttle as a likely cornering technique.

--
Frank S

[coco]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


I recall this one as being simply too narrow-tracked for comfort, colossal punch, rather hefty steering (which surprised me) and generally not a patch on the 300S 6-cylinder for sheer enjoyability. Carroll Shelby's famous definition of 'a blivot' springs to mind...

Don't ask me what chassis serial this one carried. I cannot remember and I'm not going to hunt for it. I do remember the ignition key was missing and we fired it up by jamming a chubby screwdriver in the keyhole instead. And no, that's not totally my personal mass weighing-down the car, it's on full noise here out of a slow corner.

DCN

Doug,
I drove #4502 various times! That is propably the fastest 450S currently. It was a real handfull and not for the fainted heart. I remember the very good German driver on 8th position (due to wrong timing of the time keepers!) with it in Monza some years ago. Within the 1st lap the car was on 1st!
Hahne had 4 races and 4 wins in it (also against #4506).

Ciao!
Walter

[coco]

Originally posted by Andrew Fellowes
While on the subject of Italy, I can't let the moment pass without posting this photo, with just a little irony to it!

The time control was inside the factory, sitting beyond it was Enzo himself, when he saw the car his face lit up with the biggest smile, I have often wondered what he was thinking. The reason for stopping here was that I was waiting for the support car to do a driver swap.

Andrew,
...what the ol`Dragon was thinking?? That he was veeeeeery lucky in 1957!!!

Ciao!
Walter

[Sharman]

That was later, I withdraw my request for early 70s programmes but 60s still stands until sombody can say differntly

[Jerry Entin]

Andrew:
To complement your great photos of chassis 4510 under brother John's ownership, here is another one. Location: Le Mans during the Historics there in 1973, with Stirling Moss admiring the car.
photo lent site Willem Oosthoek collection.

[Jerry Entin]

Designated driver Charlie Lucas and 4510 blasting past the pits during the 1973 Le Mans Historics
Sharman:
There is no record of Bob Owen ever having a 450S. In fact, until Colin Crabbe bought chassis 4510 in 1969, from Steve Hammatt in Washington State, there was no Tipo 54 in the UK in the 60s.
photo Willem Oosthoek.
research Willem Oosthoek.