74 replies to this topic

[Allan Lupton]

All I asked for was sightings of Mors cars, and we are treated to this wonderful display of erudition, photos and published data.
So much more rewarding than some other threads

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
All I asked for was sightings of Mors cars, and we are treated to this wonderful display of erudition, photos and published data.
So much more rewarding than some other threads

I agree fully, Allan, and all about a topic from over 100yrs ago. Only on TNF, I suspect. Colonel Capps must be pleased.
robert; many thanks for the links and details. It helps to open up a new motoring age.
Roger Lund

[RTH]

Originally posted by Gary C
a few more :

You can see a bit of film of this car I took during our trip to Brooklands last Sunday

[cpbell]

For someone who loves the earliest period of motor sport this topic is fascinating!

[Ray Bell]

Absolutely fascinating stuff, Michael and Robert performing at their best to add to the mix. But in particular I liked this inclusion:

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....I've always liked Mors cars. Not least because they were one of the first, if not the first, constructor to fit hydraulic-dampers to their suspension, and the cars proved particularly controllable at high speed over the awful surfaces of that time.

I can understand this of someone who was there when suspension and damping were really coming into their own in racing... seeing cars beginning to win because of their handling rather than their power.

Just imagine what might have happened if Charles had got his hands on free Konis!

[Eddie Berrisford]

Doug, On the '02 Collier car, the shock absorbers are air damped, not hydrolic. A cast iron piston with a leather washer works in a cast iron cylinder and damps on the return stroke. The washer works rather like a bicycle tyre pump in reverse: letting air past it on the bump stroke, them sealing against the cylinder wall and forcing the air through a small bleed hole on the rebound. The first ones fitted to the cars were not too successful as the travel of the suspension is greater than the stroke of the shocker unit, you can see them hanging broken in several pictures of the time.
Another oddity which may be of interest to us Mors fans is that there is no accellerrator pedal. The throttle is a hand lever on the steering column which is interconected with the clutch pedal. With the engine idling and the cluth down, the hand lever is advanced along its ratchet about half way. As the clutch is let up the throttle opens and you're away! Speed is then regulated using the hand lever.
To change gear, pressing the clutch closes the throttle, move the gear lever to neutral and if you are going down the gears, blip the engine by quickly part lifting the clutch pedal, then shift to the next gear. The gear box is sequential, and as you go up the box the lever gets further away with each shift. It is also quite easy to shift gears using the ignition kill button on the steering wheel (is nothing new!), but this can result in quite an explosion in the exhaust box. The car is a real joy to drive and feels like its on rails. A truly great car.

[Doug Nye]

Welcome to TNF Eddie. Gentlemen, permit me to introduce this country's leading one-man restoration company - a wonderful craftsman who has specialised in genuinely vintage and veteran cars, particularly from Mercedes and Mercedes-Benz, over many years. He has recently completed restoration of the Collier Mors - amongst others.

He and I successfully caused ripples in Stuttgart last year when their resident corporate experts informed us that 'our' 1914 GP Mercedes - which he has driven in the Festival of Speed - "...does not exist".

Eddie torpedoed their case with a peerlessly polite presentation of forensically perfect and devastatingly effective hard evidence in which he had invested many dedicated months of deep commitment and concentrated research. A star player.

DCN

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by D-Type
Apparently it is road legal. I saw it leaving Brooklands to go home by road.

It looks tattier but the same colour as the one I just watched at Prescott Speed Hillclimb Aug 2007

[robert dick]

Technical details of the Mors racers (and other early machines) are always welcome, Eddie!

= = = =

Does anyone know who were the engineers responsible for the Mors racers between 1902 and 1908?
Was Henri Brasier still responsible for the 1902 racer?

Brasier was named technical director at Mors in 1898 (who were the engineers behind Brasier?). Brasier left Mors in November 1901 and began to work for Georges Richard.
The name of Henri Perrot (the man of the eponymous brake system) as Brasier's right-hand man appears in some recent publications of the École des Arts et Métiers, but no exact dates or details claiming that Perrot worked for Mors.
Perrot switched to Argyll/Alexandria/Glasgow in May 1907, and remained there as technical director until August 1914. During WWI, Perrot was responsible for the Lorraine-Dietrich aero-engines.

[Allan Lupton]

I believe Charles Schmidt was there until '04 when he went to Packard.
Andre Citroën was there from 1908 as works manager which title often included design responsibility. He certainly introduced his gears into the Mors RX axles by 1913

[ReWind]

@Robert: While I researched a little bit on the Hotchkiss firm (for my Elliott Shepard thread) the name of Georges Terrasse appeared as a former Mors designer. Maybe the man you are looking for?

[Allan Lupton]

Terrasse was said to have designed the Paris-Madrid Mors, and was with Hotchkiss by about 1904, so there's still a gap.

[robert dick]

Thanks for links.

Charles Schmidt and the Packard Gray Wolf:
http://www.geh.org/a...98130510037.jpg
http://www.geh.org/a...98130510002.jpg
The bodies of the Packard and the 1903 Paris-Madrid Mors ("Dauphin") are vaguely similar.

Georges Terasse was certainly involved in the design of the 1903 Mors.
The 1904 Hotchkiss (French Bennett elimination, Circuit de l'Argonne) looked like a big Mors, even in some details beneath the bonnet.
Two of the 1904 Hotchkiss drivers, Achille Fournier and Amblard, drove for Mors in the 1903 Paris-Madrid.

[Doug Nye]

Later racing Mors 1903-1904...


1


2


3

Photos: Maurice-Louis Branger/The GP Library

[Gerr]

According to "Special Interest Autos" August 1982....

"France's successful Mors was assembled in Missouri of all places, by the St. Louis Car Company from 1906-09."

[robert dick]

Later racing Mors, 1903, pic no. 1 and 2 - Gabriel's Mors being unloaded.
Mors, Panhard and Michelin chartered Transat's (Compagnie Générale Transatlantique) "Ferdinand de Lesseps" to bring the Bennett racers and the French équipe to Dublin:
http://www.frenchlin...ship_en_142.php
http://www.frenchlin....php?image=4322

[bradbury west]

Robert, what a magnificent photo archive of marine and social history, especially the shots showing the catapult launching of the seaplanes/hydravions off the ship.
Roger Lund.

[Eddie Berrisford]

Help needed!

Attached is a photo of the rear wheel of the 1908 G.P. Mors number 14, Jenatzy, taken at G.P. in Dieppe. Can anyone identify the maker of the quick detachable rim? How does the locking mechanism work? Note that it appears to have only two nuts (bolts?) diametrically opposite each other to retain the rim onto the wheel.
The car still exists today (it was at the Goodwood Fof S ), but wheels fitted at the moment are poorly made replacements and I need this information in order to build the correct type and style of wheel.
All ideas are welcome!

Eddie

[Allan Lupton]

Those would be by Michelin: I'll post a bit more when I'm in less of a hurry, probably tomorrow.

[robert dick]

In the contemporary magazines the equipment of the Mors was described as "Michelin" for the tyres and "bois, jantes amovibles" for the wheels/rims (= wood, detachable rims - no name concerning the rim supplier).

Photo of Landon (stop during the race) in Mathieson's ACF book: the rims look like the standard 1908 Michelins (single "nut/bolt").

Possible that Jenatzy's Mors rolled on the old 1907 rims, attached with only two nuts/bolts, just for the pesage/scrutineering.

[robert dick]

Jenatzy's Mors in the 1908 GP de l'ACF/Dieppe:
http://www.artonline..._ACF-082-lr.jpg
I think Michelin rims as used in 1907 and fixed by 2 bolts only for the scrutineering.

Landon's Mors:
http://www.artonline..._ACF-081-lr.jpg
with Michelin rims (1908 type, single lock screw) and tyres.

For comparison Baras' Brasier with Michelin rims (1908 type) and tyres:
http://www.artonline..._ACF-085-lr.jpg


Demogeot's Mors in the 1908 Coppa Florio/Bologna:
http://www.artonline..._CFl-072-lr.jpg
different type/make of rims (not from Michelin)

[Eddie Berrisford]

Thanks for the prompt replies!
This image of #14, Jenatzy in the pits shows that the quick detatchable rims seen in scruteneering appear to be the same as used for the race. Note the locking shoes fitted arround the inside of the rims.
The grease thrown out of the rim and onto the front tyre wall indicates that perhaps these rims were prone to sieze to the wheel mounting unless copius ammounts of lube was used.
It is interesting that all three Mors have different types of q-d rims, so maybe the choice of which type to use was left to the drivers.
I agree that these rims may well be made by Michelin, but a search of the factory archive drew blank. Could this be one of a type offered by several other manufacturers?
Why is life so difficult?

Eddie

[fines]

Originally posted by Eddie Berrisford
Why is life so difficult?

Because otherwise it would be boring.

[robert dick]

Remark:

Camille Jenatzy/his family produced tyres in a factory at Schaerbeek/Brussels:
http://images.artnet...0065&filetype=2
http://www.autotechn...g/13L/M6086.jpg

In the 1906 Circuit des Ardennes, Camille Jenatzy had his Mercedes equipped with Jenatzy tyres.
In the same race the two other Mercedes cars started on Continental tyres, and Continental detachable rims built under Vinet licence.
http://i1.ebayimg.co...9/9f/6deb_1.JPG

I don't know if Jenatzy produced own detachable rims (also under Vinet licence??).

[bradbury west]

Thanks for links.

Charles Schmidt and the Packard Gray Wolf:

OT a little, but there is a good shot of the Gray Wolf here in Art Evans' SCD article this week
http://www.sportscar...race-profile/2/
The photo is on the header and a better version further down the page.
Roger Lund