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ChampCar: Cotman out - Larry, Moe & Curly in


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#101 McGuire

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 16:54

Originally posted by ensign14

I submit that the US open wheel racing is solely rooted at Indy. From a spectator perspective. It is all about Indy and nothing else has ever mattered.


Looking at it from the top down, sure. But from the bottom up this country's racing roots are on the ovals. Not the road courses. With a very few exceptions, there was no road racing in the USA until after WWII and the great postwar sports car boom. So any affinity we have for road racing is mainly with sports cars; there is no long-standing tradition for formula-car road racing here as there is for the GP in Europe.

In the Great Golden Age of American road racing we had the Can-Am and the Trans-Am. Cars with fenders. F5000 was great racing but you couldn't pay people here to watch it. Finally SCCA came up with the brilliant idea of putting faux-sports racing bodies on F5000 cars..you will recall that fiasco bumped and heaved along until CART was born. Some of those teams served as the very nucleus of CART, Haas and Newman for example. There was both the beauty and flaw of it: a shotgun marriage of two disparate cultures. Let's sell open-wheel road racing with the Indy 500, the world's greatest oval race, as its centerpiece and marquee attraction.

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#102 McGuire

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 17:06

Originally posted by ensign14

I've just looked at attendances at USAC Championship races 50 years ago. The only non-Indy rounds that had crowds listed were Trenton (12,000) and Phoenix (9,000). To see whether this was a freak I went back 5 years. 26,000 at Milwaukee, less than 7,000 at Springfield, 20,000 at Springfield, 24,500 at Milwaukee 2, 18k at Indy Fairgrounds, 9,000 at Sacramento and Phoenix (suspiciously the exact figures were the same). Only 60,000 at Syracuse broke that run which would embarrass Sheffield Wednesday let alone a national championship.


Those figures seem quite reasonable to me. 24,000 is essentially Milwaukee's capacity, for example.

#103 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 17:20

Originally posted by McGuire




In the Great Golden Age of American road racing we had the Can-Am and the Trans-Am. Cars with fenders. F5000 was great racing but you couldn't pay people here to watch it. Finally SCCA came up with the brilliant idea of putting faux-sports racing bodies on F5000 cars..you will recall that fiasco bumped and heaved along until CART was born. Some of those teams served as the very nucleus of CART, Haas and Newman for example. There was both the beauty and flaw of it: a shotgun marriage of two disparate cultures. Let's sell open-wheel road racing with the Indy 500, the world's greatest oval race, as its centerpiece and marquee attraction.


Continuing that theme, in most countries around the world the domestic tintop series is more popular than any of the domestic open wheel leagues. F3 is the support act to the DTM. F3 tries to go it alone in the UK and goes absolutely nowhere.

Yes I hear you say, Formula 1 is massive in Italy. Well, Ferrari is. They barely have a racing industory after that.

I wonder how big 'Formula 1' would be if post-war it went on an evolutionary train that would have had the 1998 WC decided in cars that looked more like the 1998 Porsche, Mercedes, Nissan, etc Le Mans cars. Still very quick prototype race cars with manufacturer identifiable looks.

#104 ColdHeart

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 17:31

Originally posted by xflow7


While it's been kept very quiet, apparently Newman has recently undergone fairly serious cancer surgery. It seems he's on the mend, but not entirely well, so it would not surprise me in the least if he took the opportunity to finally step aside fully.

http://insider.speed...der=asc&start=0

It goes with out saying, but best wishes to Paul and his family. He is truly remarkable.


Newman turns 83 tomorrow and his 50th anniversary is on Monday. He has health issues and just opened a new organic restaurant in his hometown in Connecticut. Hard to see him flying to races all over the globe. Newman is a great man, both for what he has accomplished on the screen and for his charitable works. I hope he recovers and sticks around for years but surely his racing involvement will be cut back.

And Carl Haas turns 78 next month, maybe these two old warriers have mellowed a bit in the twilight and want to take another shot at the Indy 500.

#105 Dudley

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 17:32

Not that the series can afford to lose the 2 cars, but wouldn't the championship last year have been really f'ing exciting without N/H/L?

#106 qwazy

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 19:22

http://sports.espn.g...john&id=3209249

Interesting article about Robert Clarke and his retirement but the most interesting came at the end;


"It was my failure to make a difference in bringing CART and the IRL together, or convince the IRL that it needs to reinvent itself," Clarke reflected. "It pushed myself to levels of personal performance trying, but in the end failed."




It's a bit alarming that even Clarke/Honda couldn't help Tony George see what's past his own nose.

#107 ColdHeart

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 19:57

"Clarke/Honda couldn't help Tony George see what's past his own nose" even though - reportedly - it is Tony George who has made an offer that a number of CC owners see as attractive.

Time to put the blame somewhere else - if the split continues, if there is no deal, look no further than Gerry Forsythe.

#108 qwazy

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 20:39

I'm not taking anything away from Tony George for putting forth the offer but the way I take it is that TG wouldn't have put forth the offer if CCWS wasn't in such bad shape (ie. on the brink of death). I can't speak for other people but I feel it's long over due for TG to offer something to make things right again.

Know what I mean?

#109 ColdHeart

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 21:16

This is not the first offer that has been made. The two sides have talked numerous times in previous years and have not been able to come to agreement - but to then blame only one side for this failure is unfair.

If Side A offers $X and Side B demands $Y, nobody's at fault, they just couldn't make a deal.

#110 Jedi_F1

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 21:48

Originally posted by ColdHeart
And speaking of elitist:
If oval racing is so easy, so lacking in skill, why don't more road racers come to oval racing and dominate? In 34 oval races, Montoya had exactly two top 5s in NASCAR, and none came in the last 16 races when he would have learned the ropes.


I never wanted to point that driving on ovals is easy, you don't need skills, talent, experience or what so ever.... but it's an outside view we get.
And I think a Jimmie Johnson could be even pretty good in a single seater and I Kimi Raikkonen could be doïng very nice things on ovals..
let's say a talented great driver isn't only good in one series but in more than one series.

But think about it..
What's more difficult to get the fastest lap on: Spa-Francorchamps or the Indy Oval?
What's more difficult 50 laps full speed all the way on a rainy Spa-Francorchamps or 250 laps on dry sunny Indy Oval track?
And yes track conditions changes on ovals as on road-courses...the discussion is endless.. it's a different kind of racing.
But I understand your explanation why Oval racing is so popular in the States.. it's all about the history.
Thanks for pointing me that out.

#111 qwazy

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 21:50

Fair enough, then. :]

#112 McGuire

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 21:53

Originally posted by qwazy



It's a bit alarming that even Clarke/Honda couldn't help Tony George see what's past his own nose.


That rather assumes that engine manufacturers always know what is best for racing series.

After all, they did such a good job with CART.

#113 McGuire

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 22:00

Originally posted by Jedi_F1


But think about it..
What's more difficult to get the fastest lap on: Spa-Francorchamps or the Indy Oval?


Indy. To get the fastest lap at the Speedway you must be absolutely perfect for four corners, then in qualifying to do it four times in a row. There is no such thing as a perfect lap at Spa. Slip a little on one corner and make it up at the next. The next lap can always be better than the last. But in qualifying at Indy nothing is left on the table.

#114 qwazy

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 22:07

Originally posted by McGuire


That rather assumes that engine manufacturers always know what is best for racing series.

After all, they did such a good job with CART.



Well, I think Clarke (in the article) was referring to re-unifying the series. I think we'll all agree that that is/was best for the IRL.

#115 McGuire

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 22:07

Originally posted by qwazy
I'm not taking anything away from Tony George for putting forth the offer but the way I take it is that TG wouldn't have put forth the offer if CCWS wasn't in such bad shape (ie. on the brink of death). I can't speak for other people but I feel it's long over due for TG to offer something to make things right again.

Know what I mean?


They talk every year. Kalkhoven and Forsythe could have gotten a better deal two years ago than they can get this year. Whose fault is that?

I can appreciate your sentiment that George may owe something to open wheel racing, but I don't see where he owes Kalkhoven and Forsythe anything, and that is what we are talking about here. We are not talking about money going to the sport or into the fans' pockets. We are talking about money going into Kalkhoven's and Forsythe's pockets. Let's be real.

#116 McGuire

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 22:10

Originally posted by qwazy



Well, I think Clarke (in the article) was referring to re-unifying the series. I think we'll all agree that that is/was best for the IRL.


That was the first part of his quote. The second part of Clarke's quote lamented the fact that he could not persuade IndyCar to "reinvent" itself according to Clarke's vision. What is Clarke's vision exactly? It might be helpful to know what it is before attacking George for not adopting it.

#117 qwazy

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 23:30

Originally posted by McGuire


That was the first part of his quote. The second part of Clarke's quote lamented the fact that he could not persuade IndyCar to "reinvent" itself according to Clarke's vision. What is Clarke's vision exactly? It might be helpful to know what it is before attacking George for not adopting it.


Haha, I could knit pick and say I was only referring to the first part but I see what you're saying.

I agree that a lot of peoples hands are dirty in this situation but I was just making reference to Tony George in that instance.

#118 canon1753

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 23:35

For those who think oval racing is boring...

Take the 21 minutes out of your life to watch this.....



I was at this race and it is still one of the signature races in CART/CCWS history. Great memories of what it once was.

Also- A few years ago the IRL specs were fairly similar and you had the cut and thrust racing like in the video. But not always....

But, as a CART fan for years, the disconcerting thing for me is that it is all about Indy. The championship or the championship rounds always play second fiddle. Of course the specs are tuned best for Indy.

#119 DLaw

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 01:34

Whatever it is, these guys need to merge. Champ car is dying a slow death. IRL is not doing much better.

Once Newman Hass moves, the merge will follow, me think. 2009?!

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#120 DLaw

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 01:37

Cannon,
Indy should be the crown jewel of "Indy/CART", nothing is wrong with that. Just imagine if and after the merge, they run the road course as a separate race also!

#121 F575 GTC

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 02:48

Originally posted by canon1753
For those who think oval racing is boring...

Take the 21 minutes out of your life to watch this.....



:up: Nice to watch, but if i'm totally honest - - is better racing!

But then each to their own and this topic isn't about Oval Vs Road courses :)

#122 canon1753

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 03:35

Originally posted by DLaw
Canon,
Indy should be the crown jewel of "Indy/CART", nothing is wrong with that. Just imagine if and after the merge, they run the road course as a separate race also!


I mean, Indy is Indy. CART was able to get a good sense of a value of a Championship. The ICS doesn't have the value of the nonIndy rounds that CART had, and that would go for promotion and all the other parts of elevating the series beyond Indy. That is what I miss from the heights of CART in the late 80's and early 90's.

It would be interesting to see if the Indy road course is used for anything else than MotoGP. (I'd love to see F1 back).

Finally, F575 GTC- I saw that live on Speed- great stuff too!

#123 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 04:35

Originally posted by McGuire


That rather assumes that engine manufacturers always know what is best for racing series.

After all, they did such a good job with CART.

Word again.
This thread made me wish for the way it was enough to netflix myself the IMAX movie of USOW mid nineties with the Andrettis starring. Fords, Toyotas, Hondas with R. Gordon, Zanardi, Fernandez,Vasser, Junquiera, Castro-Neves et al out there over the season and was not too shabby.
When the competition between engine makers of I 500 racers stopped it was right around the time of the split, probably caused by it. Once manufacturers pulled up the rug, the race series in toto were doomed. US oval racing was/is probably so much a niche, with only one significant race it's no longer worth the candle for the manufacturers. If anything, auto manufacturing is about management, with the management skills that CART/CCWS and the irl have diplayed it's no wonder they pulled up stakes and headed to ALM, (more to) F-1 and NASCAR with their dollars.
TG's 'vision' was develop a series based on ovals, with formula type cars.The irlistas may argue the point and say he always had 'thought of' a few select street races and RC's, but there is no doubt the 'vision' was going to be oval based rules for the cars. His vision has failed. Even he has realized that is not going to happen, scheduling Street races and RCs and and having the wrong car as spec to do it. CART/CCWS' vision, if you can call it that of 'festival' racing is not working either. If USOW is to survive, it's going to be a mix of Oval,RC, and Street. There is no other way. So, it's back to square one, CART circa '95 is what will work, if anything will, for USOW.
Honestly, if Honda leaves the irl , and I'd say even they don't, what engines will be spec at indy in 2010?
The V-8 aspirated will be/is as antiquated as the V-8 turbo is.
It's do or die time for both series, make that they are both dead, it's time for the real, all new big time spec to be set for both series entering 2010 or the 2010 i500 will have about 20 entries and the rest of the series will be shown on the sports highlights only if there is a major crash, circa 1970 style.
YMMV

#124 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 05:18

Originally posted by F575 GTC

But then each to their own and this topic isn't about Oval Vs Road courses :)


Both great vids, I like racing whether it's SC, Formula or dragsters.
It's all good.
Now, can either of you find me a clean sound file of the F-1 Turbos to run on my sound system?
:smoking:

#125 former champ

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 09:52

Originally posted by F575 GTC


I think it's meant in the sense that a lap of an Oval track is 'easier' to do than a lap of a road circuit. It'd certainly be easier than a lap of La Sarthe or Monaco for example.

That's not to say that there isn't skill involved in driving at those speeds for 300+ laps and so close to other cars, but that actual skill involved in memorising the track would surely be easier than memorising a road course with 12 or so corners of varying degree's.


Do you really have any idea what your on about? Didn't think so.

#126 Burai

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 12:10

Originally posted by Bumper
I'd say take the frigging offer KK/Forsythe. Sounds like CC is going to squeeze one more year out of their current series, and this is more a pride issue then business sense. From the above-quoted Speed TV article:

Tony's offer: "Free cars. Free engines. Long Beach, Toronto, Edmonton, Mexico City and Australia added to the Indy Racing League’s schedule. A unified open-wheel series for 2008".

KK's and Forsythe's reaction: "It’s believed they want George to pay them as much as $100 million, in addition to providing free equipment and paying to sanction those five races. Also, one or both requested a seat on the IRL board."

I think it's quite reasonable for KK/Forsythe to demand a seat on the board, and of course those five races are CC's trump card. But they will be worth nil if there are no teams left to have a series, and timing is everything here. Tony George realises this and his offer is a cunning one.


I don't think it's cunning at all. I'd dare say that it's bloody generous considering that CCWS has 1 season left in it and everyone will come over in '09 anyway and be paying their way. To expect $100m for a series on it's last legs is just ridiculous.

The way I see this panning out is that some teams may well approach George individually and try to sort something out for '08 if Champ Car don't accept the deal in the next couple of months. My hunch is that most teams will switch regardless of what the governing body decide to do and by the time we get to Long Beach, KK and JF will be the only ones left.

I'm absolutely expecting the vast majority of Champ Car owners to be in the grid at Indy in May and continuing with the IRL after that.

And as for KK and JF on the board? Seriously, I can't think of a worse thing that could happen. I just don't see them playing nice. They've never worked for the benefit of the sport up until now and I can't see that improving if they are sat at TG's table.

#127 Bumper

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 12:21

Originally posted by Burai
I don't think it's cunning at all. I'd dare say that it's bloody generous


With cunning I meant that Tony knows that with his offer, and crucially at *this* point, he can cause disruption within CC with a very tempting offer for teams currently still competing in CC, to jump ship to IRL.

CC may very well fold mid- to end this year. With teams persisting with CC this year and stranded by the end of this year, I'm not sure Tony's 'generous' offer will still be there then, as he'll be able to set his own price for those CC teams who wil have nowhere else to go anymore end of this year/start next year.

I agree KK/Forsythe are their own worst enemies and with their decisions have done CC more harm than good.

#128 wj_gibson

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 12:36

Well, with Montoya, Villeneuve, Allmendinger and Franchitti all leaking into NASCAR, Open Wheel racing in the US really has quite a short window in which to re-establish itself anyway IMO. I thin both CCWS and IRL are drinking in something approaching the last chance saloon.

#129 shaggy

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 16:04

This offer, I think, means that TG knows something is terribly wrong with the IRL and needs to do something dramatic to stop the damage. Honda leaving, maybe ? He is offering very little for what he wants, but it may be enough for some teams, balancing on the edge, to make the plunge.

I think he wants to have 2-3 teams from CC to come over so that he can stop the funding of his own series and the new Team Support program. The way I see it, if on its 13th year, TG needs to pay teams to race in the IRL then he must have issues. The new support program is costing something like $20-30 M, right ? If he offers a third of that for CC, it may be enough to keep Honda and to stop the funding - that is why he made it clear that it had to be done now or never.

My gut feeling is that he knows Honda will leave and if he doesn't do something now, he will be back to the early IRL years when he was spending, allegedly, over $50M a year to keep the thing alive ... of course, IMO.

shaggy

#130 Burai

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 16:34

Originally posted by shaggy
This offer, I think, means that TG knows something is terribly wrong with the IRL and needs to do something dramatic to stop the damage. Honda leaving, maybe ? He is offering very little for what he wants, but it may be enough for some teams, balancing on the edge, to make the plunge.

I think he wants to have 2-3 teams from CC to come over so that he can stop the funding of his own series and the new Team Support program. The way I see it, if on its 13th year, TG needs to pay teams to race in the IRL then he must have issues. The new support program is costing something like $20-30 M, right ? If he offers a third of that for CC, it may be enough to keep Honda and to stop the funding - that is why he made it clear that it had to be done now or never.

My gut feeling is that he knows Honda will leave and if he doesn't do something now, he will be back to the early IRL years when he was spending, allegedly, over $50M a year to keep the thing alive ... of course, IMO.

shaggy


I think it's more a case of Tony wanting to secure races and teams before the shit really starts hitting the fan. Once Champ Car goes tits-up (let's say that will be at the end of the season), every single team will be at risk of going bankrupt. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some fold either before the start of the season or midway through.

By doing this now, he offers the refugees some stability and a helping hand. A way to carry on their business without having to budget for new cars and engines (a great relief when you consider it's just a year after everyone had to buy new DP01's). The benefit for TG is that he gets an influx of new, strong talent and some great races for his calendar.

If they don't accept the olive branch, IRL carries on as usual, struggling to fill the last few places at Indy, everyone in Champ Car save NHL and Forsythe go to the wall and that doesn't benefit anyone.

But I don't think it will get to that. I think everyone will have jumped ship on their own terms before the start of the season leaving Kevin and Gerry with their dicks in their hands.

#131 McGuire

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 17:49

Originally posted by shaggy
This offer, I think, means that TG knows something is terribly wrong with the IRL and needs to do something dramatic to stop the damage.


I dunno, hard to read any desperation on TG's part. Seems like all the desperation is among the CC teams.

#132 AyePirate

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 17:56

Originally posted by McGuire


I dunno, hard to read any desperation on TG's part. Seems like all the desperation is among the CC teams.


I think a couple of years ago they were both desperate enough to get something done.....Then TG got a little bump from Danica and Marco and the IRL suddenly had delusions of viability.

Danica was never going to CC because of all of those twisty bits, but Marco....Feckin' Michael pimped his own son to TG.

#133 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 18:23

Originally posted by McGuire


I dunno, hard to read any desperation on TG's part. Seems like all the desperation is among the CC teams.


Sorry,McGuire, I see it as equally desparate. TG offering free cars and cash sounds pretty desparate to me.
The funny thing is, if every team in CCWS took him up on his offer, there is no way he could fulfill it. I'm fairly sure Honda was not informed that they would have to ramp up and provide an additional 25-30 engines within 2-3 months and Dallara ( or whoever is the irl spec of the day) has to whip out at least 20 chassis in an impossibly short period.
It's not gonna happen, and that's strictly because of the sheer logistics of it. Just more smoke and mirrors from TG's fantasyland, as usual.
Meanwhile, while I see a crap load of CCWS banging here, has anybody have any idea how many cars the irl will field this year, and how solid their financing is? From what little I've read on them, I understand that the only way to get their cars on the tracks was by a huge infusion of FTG welfare there as well.

USOW is completely done, IMO the ONLY hope of salvage at this point is to wipe the slate on both series and start fresh with a new organization come 2010.
EDIT: And relegate FTG,KK and JF to the promoters ranks with no input on rules or scheduling. Actually the entire management of both series should be locked into porta potties while planning of a new entity is underway.

#134 AyePirate

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 18:40

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII




USOW is completely done, IMO the ONLY hope of salvage at this point is to wipe the slate on both series and start fresh with a new organization come 2010.



Maybe the France family will throw USOW fans a bone : : : : : :

Then again why would they. They have enough NASCAR feeder series.

#135 Bumper

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 21:02

Originally posted by McGuire
I dunno, hard to read any desperation on TG's part. Seems like all the desperation is among the CC teams.


Exactly.

Whitewater and Shaggy, you're both on smack. Not wanting to face up to reality, having some kind of distorted truth, desperately clinging on to CART's past glory, willing it to stay that way, keeping your head in the sand even though the world has moved on in the meantime.

Like him or not (and I don't know a single person who does :p and that includes myself as a life-long CART fan), TG is in a stronger position right now than KK/Forsythe and he holds the stronger card: he will always have the Indy500. Of course he realises IRL isn't exactly the picture of health either, of course he realises that one strong series is better than two weak series. Hence his offer. It's not one of charity.

Now go ahead with sulking, 'fans' that you are, stubbornly dismissing his offer and letting USOW die, out of 'spite' for TG, and continue reminiscing about the 'good old days'. It's all you will have left with your attitude. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and get on with business.

#136 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 22:49

Originally posted by Bumper


Exactly.

Whitewater and Shaggy, you're both on smack. Not wanting to face up to reality, having some kind of distorted truth, desperately clinging on to CART's past glory, willing it to stay that way, keeping your head in the sand even though the world has moved on in the meantime.

Like him or not (and I don't know a single person who does :p and that includes myself as a life-long CART fan), TG is in a stronger position right now than KK/Forsythe and he holds the stronger card: he will always have the Indy500. Of course he realises IRL isn't exactly the picture of health either, of course he realises that one strong series is better than two weak series. Hence his offer. It's not one of charity.

Now go ahead with sulking, 'fans' that you are, stubbornly dismissing his offer and letting USOW die, out of 'spite' for TG, and continue reminiscing about the 'good old days'. It's all you will have left with your attitude. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and get on with business.


Clinging to past glory?
Uh, no, I just said they are both F'ed up beyond repair.
If anyone is clinging to the past, it's TG.
When you say the TG has the strongers cards, maybe so, he holds a 3 to KK et al's deuce, and as I said above, even if all the CCWS teams signed on to TG's latest vision, it's vaporware, he couldn't fulfill the offer even if he wanted to.

#137 F575 GTC

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 23:00

Originally posted by former champ


Do you really have any idea what your on about? Didn't think so.


Each to their own mate.

#138 ColdHeart

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 23:39

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Clinging to past glory?
Uh, no, I just said they are both F'ed up beyond repair.
If anyone is clinging to the past, it's TG.
When you say the TG has the strongers cards, maybe so, he holds a 3 to KK et al's deuce, and as I said above, even if all the CCWS teams signed on to TG's latest vision, it's vaporware, he couldn't fulfill the offer even if he wanted to.


Yes, he can. If CC folds tomorrow, not all of their teams will make the jump. Last year 10 teams put 17 cars on the grid but several of those teams would likely move to other series or fold.

If - IF- something were to happen, all TG would have to do is scrounge up another 6-8 cars which shouldn't be that big of a deal.

#139 former champ

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 00:35

Originally posted by F575 GTC


Each to their own mate.


totally agree. Yet that does not change the fact that your clearly talking about something you have little idea about or what it consists of. What the hell, seen that narrow minded view plenty of times before.

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#140 shaggy

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 03:20

Originally posted by McGuire


I dunno, hard to read any desperation on TG's part. Seems like all the desperation is among the CC teams.

Read the article. Eric did not sound desperate, at all. Walker stated that both sides were having issues and that the offer "made it closer" to where he would consider a switch. No desperation there, either.
I think TG is trying to do something to keep Honda around, paying for the majority of the teams. Even with their help, TG still had to dig into his own pocket and pay teams to race in his series, on its 13th year.
The desperation comes from TG, who sees his series following the same path as CART and CC unless he is willing to pay for it himself, as he did at the beginning.

shaggy

#141 AyePirate

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 03:29

Someone bring me up to speed please-
How does TG generate enough money to keep the IRL afloat?
Or is there more money in Clabber Girl than one would think?
Thanks.

#142 shaggy

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 03:31

Originally posted by Bumper


Exactly.

Whitewater and Shaggy, you're both on smack. Not wanting to face up to reality, having some kind of distorted truth, desperately clinging on to CART's past glory, willing it to stay that way, keeping your head in the sand even though the world has moved on in the meantime.

Like him or not (and I don't know a single person who does :p and that includes myself as a life-long CART fan), TG is in a stronger position right now than KK/Forsythe and he holds the stronger card: he will always have the Indy500. Of course he realises IRL isn't exactly the picture of health either, of course he realises that one strong series is better than two weak series. Hence his offer. It's not one of charity.

Now go ahead with sulking, 'fans' that you are, stubbornly dismissing his offer and letting USOW die, out of 'spite' for TG, and continue reminiscing about the 'good old days'. It's all you will have left with your attitude. Sometimes you have to swallow your pride and get on with business.

Be real. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is King. "Isn't exactly the picture of health" is as worthless as saying that your wife is a little bit pregnant.
You are, essentially, asking a condemned to choose whether he wants to die by hanging or by electrocution. Either way he is gong to die.
The way things are going, based on the past 12 years of its existence, the IRL will be at CC's level, regarding tv ratings, in 3-4 years. I may be holding on to CART's past glory, but at least I have something good to look at; the picture of what the future has in store for you and the IRL is bleak.

shaggy

#143 shaggy

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 03:34

Originally posted by AyePirate
Someone bring me up to speed please-
How does TG generate enough money to keep the IRL afloat?
Or is there more money in Clabber Girl than one would think?
Thanks.

Indy and the Brickyard, mainly. He also gets about $25M from ABC for tv rights and some income from track fees. There is also the investment/profit from the family fortune.
So, he can keep going for a long long time, if he wants to, but at CC's level of irrelevancy, if the pattern holds

shaggy

#144 F575 GTC

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:26

Originally posted by former champ


totally agree. Yet that does not change the fact that your clearly talking about something you have little idea about or what it consists of. What the hell, seen that narrow minded view plenty of times before.


Well thanks for taking the time out to give reasons as to why my narrow-minded view is so utterly wrong; another post that adds no credability to you and just gives another reason why this forum is filled with so many argumentative posts. I'll admit i don't watch a lot of Oval racing because it's not my style of racing, give me a 6 Hour Le Mans Series race where the winner finishes five laps ahead of the field anyday. But hey, thanks for your contribution and setting me straight - it's just as well that my 'Ignore User' button works just as well your 'Post idiotic reply' button! :up: Cheers.

#145 McGuire

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 13:23

Originally posted by AyePirate
Someone bring me up to speed please-
How does TG generate enough money to keep the IRL afloat?
Or is there more money in Clabber Girl than one would think?
Thanks.


The assumption there is that the IRL requires a lot of money to operate, which does not appear to be the case. While the IMS Corp is privately held and thus not subject to public scrutiny, one can observe and draw conclusions. Interesting to note: nearly everywhere Champ Car has a large expense (which bankrupted the former public company) IMS Corp has a revenue stream, if only a modest one. That is the main difference between the two series, not the mix of ovals vs. road courses and other aspects fans tend to key on. One is a business and the other is not.

#146 former champ

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 13:30

Originally posted by F575 GTC
I'll admit i don't watch a lot of Oval racing because it's not my style of racing


bingo. That's why your opinion is a very shallow one. You clearly know little about oval racing and, to boot, you hardly watch it. Yet you see fit to comment on it in the manner you did? By all means, put me on ignore, your doing us both a favour and save me the comments regarding this forum, its not relevant and I couldn't care less. Maybe people floating opinions on something they have little clue about pollutes this board (and causes argumentative posts). Just a thought.....and spare me the speel about credibility, I'm not looking for it and nor should I be. Lets be honest, to start with, your comparing the two disciplines in road racing and oval racing. Why? Chalk and cheese, its a stupid comparison. Yet then you go on anyway.....

and why should I give reasons? This particular topic has been flogged to death, do a search and see why your wrong on many points and are showing a lack of knowledge of what your talking about. Now there's an idea. :up:

#147 McGuire

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 13:41

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Sorry,McGuire, I see it as equally desparate. TG offering free cars and cash sounds pretty desparate to me.
The funny thing is, if every team in CCWS took him up on his offer, there is no way he could fulfill it. I'm fairly sure Honda was not informed that they would have to ramp up and provide an additional 25-30 engines within 2-3 months and Dallara ( or whoever is the irl spec of the day) has to whip out at least 20 chassis in an impossibly short period.


The offer was made last December at the behest of Robert Clarke.

#148 AyePirate

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 17:14

To me TG's offer doesn't sound that desperate. It sounds like an attempt at a kill shot.
He has The 500, he has the OWR's two most identifiable names Danica and Marco.
While this isn't much, compared to CC it's an embarrassment of riches.
He doesn't need to supply all of the CC teams just enough to knock their grid down
to a comically small number so that can't achieve critical mass.

If he succeeds he has the the remaining OW series. I would guess that the value of the IRL would escalate
enough to cover his out of pocket costs.

Not the outcome I want by the way, seeing the destroyer of US OWR coming out on top.


...and that Ecclestone talked TG into it starting the IRL with the USGP as bait.
Once US OWR was reduced to wraith-like existence it was mission accomplished and Bernie couldn't get
out of the USGP fast enough.

#149 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 18:23

Ecclestone's role in the formation of the IRL -- or ICS or whatever it is now called, was minimal, although he was very interested party in the proceedings. John Cooper, A.J. Foyt, and many others -- particularly those who were on the losing end of the CART/USAC fight -- were those who pushed George in the direction of creating a separate series, which was announced in the Spring of 1994, giving everyone two seasons to either sort things out or simply dig the trenches -- the latter seems to be what most involved did. George's decison was also aided by the manner in which he felt the CART board treated him. The slights, real or imagined, along with the possession of the The Venue, and the encouragement of others were enough to convince George that he had to press the button and use nukes. If nothing else, the American OWR mess proves that there is some validity to the MAD -- Mutually Assured Destruction -- concept that was develped out of applying game theory to the Cold War.

#150 shaggy

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 01:14

Originally posted by McGuire


The assumption there is that the IRL requires a lot of money to operate, which does not appear to be the case. While the IMS Corp is privately held and thus not subject to public scrutiny, one can observe and draw conclusions. Interesting to note: nearly everywhere Champ Car has a large expense (which bankrupted the former public company) IMS Corp has a revenue stream, if only a modest one. That is the main difference between the two series, not the mix of ovals vs. road courses and other aspects fans tend to key on. One is a business and the other is not.

A few years ago, before Toyota and Honda moved over, there was an article on a newspaper that painted a very different picture. I forget the paper's name, but it essentially stated that the IRL was costing TG plenty of money to keep alive; in fact, it was stated that he had not yet made a single penny in profit from it.
I still say that the fact the the IRL has to provide Team Assistance in its 13th year of existence, with Honda backing on top of it, means that there are serious issues with racing in the IRL. If what you say is true about Clarke's "push," then, that would seem to validate my point. In the end, TG does not want to pay for it, as he did at the beginning, and he figures this offer may be cheaper than the alternative.

At this point, I'd be willing to bet that in 3-4 years the IRL tv ratings will be at CC's current levels. Those of you who think that this offer is an answer to OW's problems, in the US, are sadly mistaken.

shaggy