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ChampCar: Cotman out - Larry, Moe & Curly in


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#151 McGuire

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:14

Originally posted by shaggy

I still say that the fact the the IRL has to provide Team Assistance in its 13th year of existence, with Honda backing on top of it, means that there are serious issues with racing in the IRL.


Couldn't disagree more. Real racers are paid to race. The definition of professional motor racing is when you can make money at it. When you get right down to it that is what Gurney's White Paper was all about: increasing the payout fund and prize money to realistic levels... which in CART was never addressed as the focus shifted to a franchise scheme, and the points/prize money never was increased in 20 years.

The IndyCar TEAM program (please investigate) offers a minimum season payout of $1.2 Million for starting every event, with ups based on performance. Which is how it should be. Race teams should not have to depend 100% on sponsorships and ride buyers to stay in business. That is a bad model and is undeniably responsible for many of the problems in the sport.

Another bad model: the annual shakedown ritual between Champ Car ownership and team owners. Which is the subtext to the current news story making the rounds. To get a field of cars to answer the bell at Long Beach, once again Champ Car is going to have to write some checks. That practice is what bankrupted CART during the Pook regime - throwing money around based on short term exigency with little process. Once again, that is the difference between business/not a business: process.

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#152 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 03:00

Originally posted by McGuire

The IndyCar TEAM program (please investigate) offers a minimum season payout of $1.2 Million for starting every event, with ups based on performance. Which is how it should be. Race teams should not have to depend 100% on sponsorships and ride buyers to stay in business. That is a bad model and is undeniably responsible for many of the problems in the sport.


This post is about 50/50 correct.
I'l tell you one thing though, Tony Hulman would have cut his hands off before he would have doled out any money from the IMS coffers to bribe/fund race teams to be at Indy, and he could have given a rats ass if they ever raced again after Indy was over, let alone fund them to run all season.
This is where everything is way wrong in your post, on one hand you excoriate CCWS for paying teams to be at the LBGP, and preceed it saying it's Okey Dokey forTG to essentially do the same thing in a diffrent guise. Either way, the series owners are paying the teams to race, so where is the big difference?
Bad if CCWS does it.
Good if FTG does it.
And completely overlook the fact that things were so grim in the irl, that FTG pretty much had to institute the TEAM program to get it going this year.
You can do better than that cant'cha Bill?

#153 GhostR

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 03:02

Originally posted by shaggy
At this point, I'd be willing to bet that in 3-4 years the IRL tv ratings will be at CC's current levels. Those of you who think that this offer is an answer to OW's problems, in the US, are sadly mistaken.


Maybe so, and I dislike the IRL as much as many. The IRL is the representation of the destruction of a sport that I enjoyed immensely in the early and mid '90's.

Having said that, however, it's damn well time that something was changed. The time for sticking heads in the sand is over, and if the best plan available right now is TG's offer then it's time to take that offer before it's too late. Fans like you are as much to blame for this as the guys at the top. Narrow mindedness, clutching the hurts of nearly 15 years ago to their chests, inability to let go and work towards unity. Constant sniping back and forth is never going to solve this problem.

What was CART died once already, and the attempted resurrection is on its death bed right now. The IRL might be sick, but it's less sick than CC and as such it makes a better building block for trying to restore the pride of American open wheel racing. The sooner something is done, the better. If that something fails, then you're in the same place you would be anyway. There is a chance, though, however slim ... that it just might work out, and we'll see some good racing on a wide variety of tracks. And that, without the division, with all the top teams and drivers in one series, that just maybe some interest will return.

Let go of the past, start looking to the future. You might have two options on the table you don't like, but choosing certain death over possible life, no matter how slim, is a foolish man's choice.

#154 McGuire

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 03:30

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


This post is about 50/50 correct.
I'l tell you one thing though, Tony Hulman would have cut his hands off before he would have doled out any money from the IMS coffers to bribe/fund race teams to be at Indy, and he could have given a rats ass if they ever raced again after Indy was over, let alone fund them to run all season.
This is where everything is way wrong in your post, on one hand you excoriate CCWS for paying teams to be at the LBGP, and preceed it saying it's Okey Dokey forTG to essentially do the same thing in a diffrent guise. Either way, the series owners are paying the teams to race, so where is the big difference?
Bad if CCWS does it.
Good if FTG does it.
And completely overlook the fact that things were so grim in the irl, that FTG pretty much had to institute the TEAM program to get it going this year.
You can do better than that cant'cha Bill?


First, Tony Hulman helped many a racer with cash and other considerations.

Next, the main difference between the ICS and CC team support programs is one is disciplined and cost-effective and the other is not. There is no reason one team should get $1 Million and another $2 Million just because that is what it takes to get them on the grid. It's not "bad" because Champ Car is doing it. It's bad because their way burns money and in the end it doesn't work anyway.

This policy is primarily what bankrupted CART as a public company. If you still have the SEC filings have a look. Now it's Kalkhoven's money being burned and if you ask me he appears to be losing interest. The moment his accountants can wrestle him to the ground, Champ Car will cease to exist.

#155 McGuire

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 03:40

Originally posted by GhostR


Narrow mindedness, clutching the hurts of nearly 15 years ago to their chests, inability to let go and work towards unity. Constant sniping back and forth is never going to solve this problem.


IMO these fans did more damage to OW racing than the split itself ever did.

#156 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 05:35

Absolutely Hulman helped racers, at his track , with a few bucks slid under the table here and there, mostly to local Indiana home town heroes.
At no point did he run his own team.
At no point did he fund a whole series.
He promoted one race a year.

Look, the whole thing is pointless, both series should be burned to the ground, and none of the players that are in this deal should have a sniff of running, attempting to run or be allowed anywhere near what has to rise from the ashes.
Should Kalkoven wish it, he can go back to running a race team.
Should Forsythe wish it, he can run a team and promote a few races.
And FTG should unlock the gates at IMS once a year and be happy with that.
Everyone of them is pure and simple a greed whore and their whole dick measuring contest has led to probably the saddest saga to ever have taken place in US racing, and I dare say it, racing history world wide.

#157 former champ

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 05:37

Originally posted by GhostR
Maybe so, and I dislike the IRL as much as many. The IRL is the representation of the destruction of a sport that I enjoyed immensely in the early and mid '90's.


:up:

Still makes me sick to this day. The rest of your post was top notch also, well said. :up:

#158 McGuire

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:18

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
He promoted one race a year.


No, USAC was an instument of the Speedway. Phoenix International Raceway was built when Hulman signed the check. The Speedway controlled the series. CART was the anomaly, a true innovation. CART would never happen while Tony Hulman was alive. Hulman d. 1977. CART b. 1979. They waited a year to make sure he was really dead, as the old joke goes.


Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Look, the whole thing is pointless, both series should be burned to the ground, and none of the players that are in this deal should have a sniff of running, attempting to run or be allowed anywhere near what has to rise from the ashes.
Should Kalkoven wish it, he can go back to running a race team.
Should Forsythe wish it, he can run a team and promote a few races.
And FTG should unlock the gates at IMS once a year and be happy with that.


Not going to happen no matter how badly you want it. It's not about what you want. Whether you like it or not, those people run OW racing. You don't have a vote. You can buy a ticket, but all that will get you is 20 inches of aluminum.

What you are doing here is classic sports talk radio. Ever listen to that stuff? Now and then it is amusing but usually I am compelled to change the station. Every call has an unstated premise: "If all the laws of man and nature were suspended and I ran the world..." Well, they aren't and you don't.

#159 shaggy

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 17:01

Originally posted by McGuire


Couldn't disagree more. Real racers are paid to race. The definition of professional motor racing is when you can make money at it. When you get right down to it that is what Gurney's White Paper was all about: increasing the payout fund and prize money to realistic levels... which in CART was never addressed as the focus shifted to a franchise scheme, and the points/prize money never was increased in 20 years.

The IndyCar TEAM program (please investigate) offers a minimum season payout of $1.2 Million for starting every event, with ups based on performance. Which is how it should be. Race teams should not have to depend 100% on sponsorships and ride buyers to stay in business. That is a bad model and is undeniably responsible for many of the problems in the sport.

Another bad model: the annual shakedown ritual between Champ Car ownership and team owners. Which is the subtext to the current news story making the rounds. To get a field of cars to answer the bell at Long Beach, once again Champ Car is going to have to write some checks. That practice is what bankrupted CART during the Pook regime - throwing money around based on short term exigency with little process. Once again, that is the difference between business/not a business: process.

That is fine and well ...... if it were true.
The fact is that w/o that support, a lot of the teams would not be able to race in the IRL. Just as CC teams would not be able to race in CC. Either way, as Coyne, Rahal , Ganassi, Bachelart and Walker have said : both series are in trouble.
Pook's program was across the board. CC's is mainly about getting paid drivers into a certain team. In the end, both series are doing the same : paying people to race.

My point still stands : if Honda is paying so many of the bills and the IRL also has outside funds coming in, why is there a need for Team Support on top of all of that, even with Indy behind them ?

shaggy

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#160 MichaelJP

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 17:11

For all the history and complexity of the CC/IRL split, surely if you look forward rather than back the way is clear: the only OW race that matters in North America is the Indy 500. Any OW series that's going to succeed commercially has to be built around the Indy 500 centerpiece.

I hate the split as much as anyone but the IRL, broken though it is, is the only game in town.

#161 flyer72

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 22:48

Both series are dying, yet the owners are too stubborn to iron out a deal to survive. Amazing.

#162 fer312t

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:50

Enrique Bernoldi has signed for Rocketsports - Champcar is saved ! :clap:

#163 CWeil

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:10

Because a good driver (probably the best currently signed) is driving for the worst team?

#164 blackhand2010

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:25

Whilst I prefer Champcar as a series, unless they make significant progress soon, then it will just all implode.
I think anyone who sees the demise of any single seater series has some serious issues. With environmental facsists become ever more powerful, we, the fans need to see, and support as much racing as possible, as you never know when pressure will be brought to bear in the boardrooms of the world to stop it.
Even if there is some sort of deal struck, how long do you think Honda will keep spending it's cash, even if it goes up against Cosworth powered cars?
What value do they get out of it?
And what price a NASCAR move, if Toyota sudeenly become competitive?
On a personal note, if there is a meeting of the ways, then I hope to God that they go with the Champcar car, as the IRL one looks as if it's been in a fight and had it's nose flattened.

#165 Locai

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 14:29

Originally posted by McGuire


All true, but in the final analysis there is no solid tradition for road racing in the USA, as there is for oval racing in the USA or road racing in Europe. Except for the Vanderbilt Cup, the Elgin road races, and a handful of other events, we didn't really have road racing until the postwar sports car boom. Our country's auto racing culture is rooted primarily in the oval tracks. That's the basic problem with road racing in the USA.

There were some great seasons in IMSA and CART in the '80s and '90s, but as it was happening a basic problem should have been recognized: the desperate lack of infrastructure. Nearly all our permanent road courses were built in the '50s and '60s, and have not exactly seen continual improvements. But instead of investing in facilities, homes for the sport to take root and grow, temporary street courses were used to bring the entertainment product into the major markets. It worked, sort of, but after all these years what does the sport have to show for it?


I would like to argue your statement by pointing out Miller Motorsports Park, Barber Motorsports Park, New Jersey Motorsports Park, and all the improvements that Panoz has made to Road Atlanta, all of the recent improvements made to Leguna Seca, and the road course at Indianapolis (to name just a few). There are plenty of world class (but perhaps not F1 class) road courses that have been built or vastly improved in the last 10 years or so.

Originally posted by qwazy
http://sports.espn.g...john&id=3209249

Interesting article about Robert Clarke and his retirement but the most interesting came at the end;





It's a bit alarming that even Clarke/Honda couldn't help Tony George see what's past his own nose.


Many people blame the "engine wars" between Toyota and Honda for the skyrocketing costs of US open wheel racing. Granted, there were many other factors (including the governining bodies' inability to keep those two entities in-check), but Honda was not without a whole lot of blame for the current situation.

#166 aportinga

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 15:39

Originally posted by shaggy
but it essentially stated that the IRL was costing TG plenty of money to keep alive.

At this point, I'd be willing to bet that in 3-4 years the IRL tv ratings will be at CC's current levels. Those of you who think that this offer is an answer to OW's problems, in the US, are sadly mistaken.

shaggy


Two years ago TG admited to the whole deal costing $25 mill.

3-4 Years no one will give a shit about either series - baring CCWS keeps shooting themselves in the foot...

My contact @ Haas now works for an Atlantic team - according to him, no one is verifing this entire story - where TG is offering to hand over chassis and engines for free, but he has stated that regardless Haas is heading to the IRL in 2009 as a full 2 car operation. . In fact there are already employees involved in that move today.

#167 aportinga

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 15:41

Originally posted by McGuire


IMO these fans did more damage to OW racing than the split itself ever did.


No ****ing way... You were drunk when you posted that right?

#168 aportinga

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 16:08

From a business perspective what needs to happen is the following.

1. CCWS Management must come clean about it's current platform.
2. They need a clearly defined end point with projected goals which need to be met. This end point must not be greater then 2 years and it's quarterly goals must be shared with the fans.
3. If they cannot accomplish the above for what ever reasons then the most noble thing to do IMO is to follow through with the obligations set for the court case of 2004 which essetially was Business Continuity. Within that context it would be in there best interest to secure the future of existing teams and employees with the IRL, ALMS or elsewhere - this includes representation in getting the best deals for chassis and engines with rival/other series. Anything short would be gambling the livelyhoods of many employees at a rather high risk.
4. Sell the rights to what is owned currently to Tony Goerge - this includes Cosworth, Pi and many venues.

#169 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 16:15

Regarding 4. I think they should continue to own what they own, and supply it to the IRL on the normal customer basis. Everyone wins.

#170 shaggy

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 16:29

Originally posted by aportinga


Two years ago TG admited to the whole deal costing $25 mill.

3-4 Years no one will give a shit about either series - baring CCWS keeps shooting themselves in the foot...

My contact @ Haas now works for an Atlantic team - according to him, no one is verifing this entire story - where TG is offering to hand over chassis and engines for free, but he has stated that regardless Haas is heading to the IRL in 2009 as a full 2 car operation. . In fact there are already employees involved in that move today.

So, the Team Support for this year alone is costing him more than running the IRL does ? Why then did he refuse to pay the $10M a year that GF, allegedly, demanded ? Something is not quite right, unless that does not take into account all the bills that Honda took over from him ;)

If Haas moves over, he does. CC ends. Now what ? Does Haas think he is going to compete against Ganassi, AGR or Penske ? He barely could back in CART, how is he going to do it in the IRL ? He only won 2 championships in the 90s and 1 included the reigning F1 champion driving for him; in fact, he has won more titles in CC than in his whole CART history. He is gong to spend, or be "bought," by Honda for a lot of money next year and then he will have to spend more money in 2010. And he will be racing in front of the same diminishing stands as he does now. So much for his talk about moving to ALMS and going back to his road racing roots.

shaggy

#171 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 16:44

Haas was usually at an equipment disadvantage. Almost always self-imposed by trying to out smart/out tech the other teams. They'd do fine in a 'spec' series, as they did once Champ Car basically became one.

#172 aportinga

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 17:10

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Regarding 4. I think they should continue to own what they own, and supply it to the IRL on the normal customer basis. Everyone wins.


What ever allows them to get more cash works for me.

#173 aportinga

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 17:17

Originally posted by shaggy

So, the Team Support for this year alone is costing him more than running the IRL does ? Why then did he refuse to pay the $10M a year that GF, allegedly, demanded ? Something is not quite right, unless that does not take into account all the bills that Honda took over from him ;)

If Haas moves over, he does. CC ends. Now what ? Does Haas think he is going to compete against Ganassi, AGR or Penske ? He barely could back in CART, how is he going to do it in the IRL ? He only won 2 championships in the 90s and 1 included the reigning F1 champion driving for him; in fact, he has won more titles in CC than in his whole CART history. He is gong to spend, or be "bought," by Honda for a lot of money next year and then he will have to spend more money in 2010. And he will be racing in front of the same diminishing stands as he does now. So much for his talk about moving to ALMS and going back to his road racing roots.

shaggy


I won't bother commenting on your first point because as I mentioned - it appears that the entire offer may have not been acurate if made at all.

As far as Haas moving over, My guess is that McDonalds is there for Newman - he is done last I heard and was in fact supposed to make an announcement on that in December - that never happened but it does not change the fact that he is possibly stepping down, I guess we'll have too see just how many races he attends this year. That said they (NHL) have lost a number of sponsors - MediZone, Lily and so on... McDonalds will be on both cars this season (Graham and Wilson) which means CDW is out - but we all knew that anyhow. While we are wondering, I wonder why they are gone :rolleyes:

The only sponsor magnet today is the 500 - which may be the reason why Haas is going to the IRL in 09. But I have to think the lack of direction and overall attitude from CCWS as a company - which I know is bad as a fact, has to give additional thought to Haas in terms of his business future. Combined I think this is what is driving Haas.

CCWS - No direction
IRL - only means of real sponsorship with the 500 which will enable Haas to continue racing in OW.

Business decision plain and simple.

#174 McGuire

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 17:52

Originally posted by aportinga


No ****ing way... You were drunk when you posted that right?


No, I absolutely mean it. Think about it: If the fans had each embraced both series, that would have hastened a reunification.

That's the only way a reunification or reapproachment even makes sense when you look at it -- that common ground is what creates the opportunity for schedule cooperation, driver/team crossover, and common equipment among two series. From there then maybe there is a business case for an actual business merger.

The only other way a reunification/merger can happen is the parties are forced into it out of desperation, or one can buy out the other to kill it. As we have seen, that was not going to happen.

But instead of supporting both series and maintaining one fan base, the hardcore fans chose up "sides" and broke into two factions, allowing (no, insisting upon) the war to be dragged out to the bitter end. And it is just about here. One of the series is going to die soon, and it is going to be real ugly. It's that old saying... careful what you wish for, you might get it.

#175 jonpollak

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 18:30

I've got 5 minutes to burn so allow me to chip in with an attempt to spread some cheeky brevity
(apologies to the CC faithful as it's pretty IRL-centric)

IRL Hires Lap Dancer to Promote Series and a great read from PRESSDOG

Jp

#176 cheesy poofs

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 18:42

Originally posted by jonpollak
I've got 5 minutes to burn so allow me to chip in with an attempt to spread some cheeky brevity
(apologies to the CC faithful as it's pretty IRL-centric)

IRL Hires Lap Dancer to Promote Series and a great read from PRESSDOG

Jp



She might just be called a lapped dancer too...

:lol:

#177 Locai

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 18:48

Originally posted by McGuire


No, I absolutely mean it. Think about it: If the fans had each embraced both series, that would have hastened a reunification.

That's the only way a reunification or reapproachment even makes sense when you look at it -- that common ground is what creates the opportunity for schedule cooperation, driver/team crossover, and common equipment among two series. From there then maybe there is a business case for an actual business merger.

The only other way a reunification/merger can happen is the parties are forced into it out of desperation, or one can buy out the other to kill it. As we have seen, that was not going to happen.

But instead of supporting both series and maintaining one fan base, the hardcore fans chose up "sides" and broke into two factions, allowing (no, insisting upon) the war to be dragged out to the bitter end. And it is just about here. One of the series is going to die soon, and it is going to be real ugly. It's that old saying... careful what you wish for, you might get it.


Your thinking is backwards...had every last fan left BOTH series when the split happened (and they damn near did all leave) then there wouldn't have been anything left to fight over. Because enough of us have kinda, sorta stuck around to watch this debacle it has just given the 'powers that be' enough hope that they can 'win' this war.

So, YES, you could "blame" the fans. Blame the ones that have stuck around for the last 10-15 years hoping this mess gets straightened out.

#178 shaggy

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 19:07

Originally posted by aportinga


I won't bother commenting on your first point because as I mentioned - it appears that the entire offer may have not been acurate if made at all.

As far as Haas moving over, My guess is that McDonalds is there for Newman - he is done last I heard and was in fact supposed to make an announcement on that in December - that never happened but it does not change the fact that he is possibly stepping down, I guess we'll have too see just how many races he attends this year. That said they (NHL) have lost a number of sponsors - MediZone, Lily and so on... McDonalds will be on both cars this season (Graham and Wilson) which means CDW is out - but we all knew that anyhow. While we are wondering, I wonder why they are gone :rolleyes:

The only sponsor magnet today is the 500 - which may be the reason why Haas is going to the IRL in 09. But I have to think the lack of direction and overall attitude from CCWS as a company - which I know is bad as a fact, has to give additional thought to Haas in terms of his business future. Combined I think this is what is driving Haas.

CCWS - No direction
IRL - only means of real sponsorship with the 500 which will enable Haas to continue racing in OW.

Business decision plain and simple.

Business decision, I understand. Andretti, Ganassi and Nunn all have stated they were "close" to being able to stay in CC, but had to leave to keep the team alive (Nunn and Michael once said they had about 80% of the budget they needed to stay in CC). I understand and accept that.
What I don't understand are all these calls to end the split, as if that was the solution. Let's call it what it is but, at least, let's not fool ourselves, ok ?

As I said before, back then I used to watch 10-11 races; if CC dies, how many races will I be able to watch ? 4-5 are not enough for me to be interested and I will watch only if I happen to "come across" one while surfing. Based on the last 12 years, I think I am not alone in that respect.

What happens to the L in NHL ? Is he staying ? Will he lose Houston and Cleveland ? Is this move part of what he bargained for when he stepped in ?

shaggy

#179 McGuire

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 21:52

Originally posted by Locai


Your thinking is backwards...had every last fan left BOTH series when the split happened (and they damn near did all leave) then there wouldn't have been anything left to fight over. Because enough of us have kinda, sorta stuck around to watch this debacle it has just given the 'powers that be' enough hope that they can 'win' this war.

So, YES, you could "blame" the fans. Blame the ones that have stuck around for the last 10-15 years hoping this mess gets straightened out.


No, you are thinking sideways and contradicting yourself from your first paragraph to your second. The fans pulling for both series to thrive and grow were directing open wheel racing toward a potential solution. However, the fans taking sides and pulling for one side or the other to tank became partisans and willing participants in the split, just like CART and IRL management.

Note: These fans haven't been hoping "this mess gets straightened out." They have been actively campaigning for one racing series or the other to get sick and die, which is a rather different proposition, hmm. You have to admit: it is a curious sort of "race fan" who cheers for racing series to go under. And these are the same people who claim they are the "real" race fans.

It is rather interesting... For the competitors the CART/IRL dispute was strictly business. As economics dictated, teams moved from CART to IRL without regard to loyalties. But for the fans all sorts of cultural distinctions quickly manifested and were quickly painted onto the scene, as to a blank canvas. It became a struggle of good vs. evil. Fans took the "war" a lot more seriously than the team owners ever did. Obviously the fans were duped.

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#180 Locai

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 00:57

Originally posted by McGuire


No, you are thinking sideways and contradicting yourself from your first paragraph to your second. The fans pulling for both series to thrive and grow were directing open wheel racing toward a potential solution. However, the fans taking sides and pulling for one side or the other to tank became partisans and willing participants in the split, just like CART and IRL management.

Note: These fans haven't been hoping "this mess gets straightened out." They have been actively campaigning for one racing series or the other to get sick and die, which is a rather different proposition, hmm. You have to admit: it is a curious sort of "race fan" who cheers for racing series to go under. And these are the same people who claim they are the "real" race fans.

It is rather interesting... For the competitors the CART/IRL dispute was strictly business. As economics dictated, teams moved from CART to IRL without regard to loyalties. But for the fans all sorts of cultural distinctions quickly manifested and were quickly painted onto the scene, as to a blank canvas. It became a struggle of good vs. evil. Fans took the "war" a lot more seriously than the team owners ever did. Obviously the fans were duped.


Let me try this a different way...You can't blame the fans when there aren't any left.

Have you ever heard the story about Bob Marley's estate? He left a bunch of kids and no Will. Everybody kept fighting over his sizable estate until the lawyers spent it all...and his family was STILL fighting when it was all gone. It's the same damn thing.


...did I really just use a Bob Marley reference in a racing thread?

#181 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 01:53

Originally posted by Locai
...did I really just use a Bob Marley reference in a racing thread?

:smoking:
Works for me...

#182 March76

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 02:58

It amazes me that the entire state of open wheel racing in the US can be controlled (manipulated) so badly by a few guys who are far more interested in padding their own pockets and egos rather than trying to put on a show and build up the sport. It looks like a petty school yard fight only on a much grander scale and the real losers are the drivers & teams and most importantly the fans. All sports are controlled and manipulated to a certain degree but the good of the sport nearly always comes through. The Champcar/IRL debacle is a rare and spectacular exception.

I have always been an F1 fan and never really got into the US scene until Mansell went there in '93. What a great series it was then with all the names, both drivers and teams, competing on ovals and road courses and some really good racing. It will never be F1 but it was still good to watch. The last 13 years have been so sad to watch, particularly the decline of Champcar, and pathetic really when you think that it has come about because of a few guys who can't get past themselves and think about the sport for a minute when they all ultimately want the same thing anyway. It's individual greed that's getting in the way.

Even domestically they have been smoked by Nascar which is so much more popular and far better managed. Regardless of Nascar the US needs one good open wheel series with all the names (Haas, Forsythe, Andretti, Penske, Ganassi etc.) together and fighting each other on the track not in the back rooms and the newspapers.

This latest talk looks to me like it has more substance finally and if Newman-Haas move in '09 then Champcar will have lost it's last big drawcard - Forsythe is practically buggered now anyway, only competing because he's a series co-owner. Whether the current talk results in some positive action or if it dosen't and Champcar closes for good the end result will likely be the same... one series. IRL is virtually there anyway. All the big corporates are involved and from a racing viewpoint they just need to drop a couple of ovals and add a few more road courses to even it up and it will be a real winner.

Just my opinion of course!

#183 McGuire

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:04

Originally posted by Locai


Let me try this a different way...You can't blame the fans when there aren't any left.

Have you ever heard the story about Bob Marley's estate? He left a bunch of kids and no Will. Everybody kept fighting over his sizable estate until the lawyers spent it all...and his family was STILL fighting when it was all gone. It's the same damn thing.


...did I really just use a Bob Marley reference in a racing thread?



I don't know that I am "blaming" anybody. It's just interesting to me that some fans apparently wanted this war more than the actual antagonists did. Really we are saying the same thing.

#184 McGuire

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:35

Originally posted by March76
The last 13 years have been so sad to watch, particularly the decline of Champcar, and pathetic really when you think that it has come about because of a few guys who can't get past themselves and think about the sport for a minute when they all ultimately want the same thing anyway. It's individual greed that's getting in the way.


Not even greed really... there is no possible way Kalkhoven and Forsythe and can ever recover all the millions they've spent and get back to even. And surely they know that. So actually it's a matter of ego -- a few very rich individuals trying to exert their will over the sport.

When Kalkhoven entered and took over CART amid the bankruptcy he was hailed as a hero among the faithful, and when he spoke he was regarded as a great visionary. Must have been a very intoxicating experience. But after all these debacles have piled up, few are terribly interested in what he has to say anymore.

And as time passes with no headway and the losses mount up, it will become easier for Kalkhoven's accountants to wrestle him to the ground. And then it will finally be over (unless another zillionaire Bond villain can be found in the wings). But to even fault him for ego is probably unfair. I'm sure when he started it was with the best of intentions, and surely in his heart of hearts he believes he was always acting for the good of the sport.

#185 McGuire

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 11:53

Originally posted by aportinga
4. Sell the rights to what is owned currently to Tony Goerge - this includes Cosworth, Pi and many venues.


George does not want or need Cosworth. If/when Honda leaves and if another OE cannot be snagged in the nets, he can contract for his engines with Zytek, Roush, Ilmor, MTC... or Cosworth for that matter. They sure need the work. Then peddle the branding rights for a few million somewhere.

Kalkhoven's purchase of Cosworth is curious from a Champ Car perspective. If he wanted to purchase a high-tech engineering company, fine. But it certainly wasn't needed to ensure the future of Champ Car. It appears that as the new guy on the scene, KK was lined up in the bullseye and sold lots of stuff. LBGP comes to mind. $20 Million.

#186 Locai

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 13:25

Originally posted by McGuire


George does not want or need Cosworth. If/when Honda leaves and if another OE cannot be snagged in the nets, he can contract for his engines with Zytek, Roush, Ilmor, MTC... or Cosworth for that matter. They sure need the work. Then peddle the branding rights for a few million somewhere.

Kalkhoven's purchase of Cosworth is curious from a Champ Car perspective. If he wanted to purchase a high-tech engineering company, fine. But it certainly wasn't needed to ensure the future of Champ Car. It appears that as the new guy on the scene, KK was lined up in the bullseye and sold lots of stuff. LBGP comes to mind. $20 Million.


Believe it or not, I agree with you on this.

I bring up the Judd engine that was announced and ready to go...only to have CART/ChampCar pull the plug.

#187 F1Johnny

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 14:41

Originally posted by Locai


Let me try this a different way...You can't blame the fans when there aren't any left.

Have you ever heard the story about Bob Marley's estate? He left a bunch of kids and no Will. Everybody kept fighting over his sizable estate until the lawyers spent it all...and his family was STILL fighting when it was all gone. It's the same damn thing.


...did I really just use a Bob Marley reference in a racing thread?


As I understand it there is no more fighting in the Bob Marley family. The lawyers did get a good chunk of $$$, but a fund/trust was set up for his 11 (known) children and they receive an amount annually. A few of his children have done quite well on their own as well - Ziggy, Stephen and Damien.

I believe Rita Marley got the lion's (pardon the pun) share of what he left behind.

Jah Rastafari

#188 shaggy

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 16:26

Originally posted by McGuire


George does not want or need Cosworth. If/when Honda leaves and if another OE cannot be snagged in the nets, he can contract for his engines with Zytek, Roush, Ilmor, MTC... or Cosworth for that matter. They sure need the work. Then peddle the branding rights for a few million somewhere.

Kalkhoven's purchase of Cosworth is curious from a Champ Car perspective. If he wanted to purchase a high-tech engineering company, fine. But it certainly wasn't needed to ensure the future of Champ Car. It appears that as the new guy on the scene, KK was lined up in the bullseye and sold lots of stuff. LBGP comes to mind. $20 Million.

Actually, from what I have read, Cosworth was a hit for KK and GF. It is growing and expanding into other areas.

LBGP ? He needed it for CC, so he had to buy it. At least, he can get a fee from TG, every year, for the IRL to race there; so, GF and KK will get some of their money back on the race tracks they bought. They will lose on CC, but can always put it under capital loss or some other term for a tax break.

Do remember that KK and GF made offers for CC, Cosworth and LB that were the lowest of all the bids received by those entities ... and they still won. The IRL/Ganassi (so the story goes ?) lost on all three bids, even when they offered more money.

shaggy

#189 jonpollak

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 17:49

Once again, Robin Miller with some insight and opinion.

http://www.speedtv.c...mmentary/42769/

Jp

#190 aportinga

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 19:40

Cotman is now over at the IRL and the Fanboys are actually calling him out as a spy for the IRL this entire time.

:rotfl:

Now that is just about the dumbest crap I have ever read on the web period!

#191 Pikachu Racing

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 20:59

15 years ago Robin Miller commentary on IRL riled up IRL fans claiming he's a CART fanboy spreading the hate

Cue today.....

Miller's commentary on CART/ChampCar riled up CART/CC fans with some claiming he's IRL fanboy and in Tony George pocket.

Funny how things come full circles within 15 years. It shows no one is safe from Robin Miller commentary.

#192 McGuire

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 21:06

Originally posted by shaggy

Do remember that KK and GF made offers for CC, Cosworth and LB that were the lowest of all the bids received by those entities ... and they still won. The IRL/Ganassi (so the story goes ?) lost on all three bids, even when they offered more money.

shaggy


Hi there, thanks for stopping by the lot. I saw you looking over that little job in the back row. You have a good eye, friend. Sure, she needs a few little things but I know you see the potential. Yes, I know the asking price is a little high. But to be perfectly honest with you and I shouldn't even be telling you this, but I've already had a few dealers over here earlier today who offered me a lot more than that. But I can tell you are the right owner for this beauty and I want you to have it. Why don't we write it up right now before they come back?

#193 McGuire

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 21:13

Silvio's dream house...

http://www.luxist.co...ate-of-the-day/

#194 Dudley

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 23:05

Originally posted by Pikachu Racing
15 years ago Robin Miller commentary on IRL riled up IRL fans claiming he's a CART fanboy spreading the hate

Cue today.....

Miller's commentary on CART/ChampCar riled up CART/CC fans with some claiming he's IRL fanboy and in Tony George pocket.

Funny how things come full circles within 15 years. It shows no one is safe from Robin Miller commentary.


I tend to find that's the best way to identify a neutral commentator, he pissed off everyone.

#195 ColdHeart

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 23:53

Originally posted by shaggy

Actually, from what I have read, Cosworth was a hit for KK and GF. It is growing and expanding into other areas.

LBGP ? He needed it for CC, so he had to buy it. At least, he can get a fee from TG, every year, for the IRL to race there; so, GF and KK will get some of their money back on the race tracks they bought.


You have this backwards. If CC fails and KK/GF retain Long Beach and Toronto, they will be the promoters of these races. If they want to host an IRL race or races, they will pay TG around $1 million. Then they have the expense of erecting the stands and establishing the course - bear in mind that the Vegas promoter reportedly lost several million dollars doing this.

Promoters pay sanction fees to the sanctioning bodies, not the other way around.

#196 aportinga

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 00:20

Originally posted by Pikachu Racing
15 years ago Robin Miller commentary on IRL riled up IRL fans claiming he's a CART fanboy spreading the hate

Cue today.....

Miller's commentary on CART/ChampCar riled up CART/CC fans with some claiming he's IRL fanboy and in Tony George pocket.

Funny how things come full circles within 15 years. It shows no one is safe from Robin Miller commentary.


I think RM has been spot on since the start. It's only the fanatics who call him out.

He's a shit starter for sure but he's my kind of shit starter.

#197 aportinga

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 00:27

Originally posted by McGuire
Silvio's dream house...

http://www.luxist.co...ate-of-the-day/


Lots of cash - no ****ing taste what so ever.

Surprised?

#198 CWeil

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 03:48

Actually, it says a lot about the state of the housing market over there that the house and large property is only $3.4M. That's pretty pathetic.

Something like that would be $30M at least (given the property size) out here in California.

#199 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 05:44

Originally posted by McGuire
Silvio's dream house...

http://www.luxist.co...ate-of-the-day/


Yikes!

Advertisement

#200 shaggy

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 04:37

Originally posted by ColdHeart


You have this backwards. If CC fails and KK/GF retain Long Beach and Toronto, they will be the promoters of these races. If they want to host an IRL race or races, they will pay TG around $1 million. Then they have the expense of erecting the stands and establishing the course - bear in mind that the Vegas promoter reportedly lost several million dollars doing this.

Promoters pay sanction fees to the sanctioning bodies, not the other way around.

OOPS :blush:
What was I thinking ? Sorry !
Then, that offer by TG looks even worse now.
I still believe it is a mistake by TG to try, for the 2nd time, to get CC on the cheap. In the order of things, $10M for 10 years doesn't look so bad - it is like a divorce, sometimes it is better to pay and get it over with once and for all.

shaggy