20 replies to this topic

[mgtd]

Dreadfull quality,I know,but I thought an interesting sequence of pics from Brands,mid 70's,was it a Group 1 race?

























I always thought that marshall (no pun intended) would need some serious osteopathy after dragging Big Gerry from the blazing remains!!


mgtd

[Gregor Marshall]

Thanks for posting those, Dad was incredibly lucky and it was after this that he would aslways make sure his cars had full rollcages instead of half-cages.

I'll scan a few bits I have from then and post them, also have a sequence of about 50 pictures of this accident.

[Andrew Kitson]

I don't think the marshal on the bank at the bottom of the hill is going to reach the fire with his extinguisher from there!

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
I don't think the marshal on the bank at the bottom of the hill is going to reach the fire with his extinguisher from there!

He didn't..... guess where I was standing that day ;) such great memories from clubbies at Brands, my 2nd home until about 1980

[doc knutsen]

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall
Thanks for posting those, Dad was incredibly lucky and it was after this that he would aslways make sure his cars had full rollcages instead of half-cages.

I'll scan a few bits I have from then and post them, also have a sequence of about 50 pictures of this accident.

His regular column in Cars & Car Conversions magazine dealt with that incident in its usual hilarious way....if I remember correctly, he concluded his column with the question "can a person who emerges backwards from a fire be called an arsonist?" He relates having thoughts about being rendered as a sort of motor racing flambe, and thinking of where he was going next...then he heard a voice calling out "stop effing about and I'll drag you out through the rear window"....which caused some second thoughts, apparently: " I did not think He would use language like that, and thought, maybe I'm going to that other place.."
Sight...like Nick Brittan's "Private Eye" in Autosport, this sort of column is unthinkable in a motor racing magazine to-day.

[David Lawson]

I was also there that day and here is a photograph I took just to add to the sequence.



David

[RS2000]

No one has answered the question in the first post. If Gp1, it is very early days Gp1 since neither the Firenza or the Avenger has alloy wheels (not yet homologated?). Or is it the price-based saloon formula that ran at one time?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by RS2000
No one has answered the question in the first post. If Gp1, it is very early days Gp1 since neither the Firenza or the Avenger has alloy wheels (not yet homologated?). Or is it the price-based saloon formula that ran at one time?

I don't remember there being any Mexicos in the price based series, 1300 Sports, yes (and not many of them, Ivan Dutton IIRC) so I too,reckon it's early days Gp1.Also the Avenger has a side exhaust, which "prod saloons" never had.

[David M. Kane]

Gerry seems to be looking for a competitor to have a chat about the shunt.

[sterling49]

I sometimes marshalled on the inside of Druids, Gerry was always fantastic to watch through there, and always had a cheery wave for the unpaid helpers, one gregarious competitor.

[RS2000]

It was all the Mexicos that were confusing me (and yes they are Type 49 shells so they are not Sports). No Mexico was ever competitive in GP1 because it was homologated at 1601cc and even the RS2000 was not competitive in Gp1 in pure circuit races. Could it be a combined grid of Gp1 and Mexico Championship races?

[Gregor Marshall]

It's a straight Group 1 race and many Mexicos raced in Group 1 then, even with it's price-based structure.

[Gregor Marshall]

I thought I'd better double-check my sweeping statement above. I have checked my records and I have the roll/fire as a Castrol Group 1 race.

I haven't got the proramme but I do have one from boxing day 1972 at Brands and the "MOTOR Group One Race" and in the £801-£1100 class B there are five Mexicos (Robert Littler, Micki Vandervell, Derek Wileman, Allan Wilkinson and Tony Dron), three Firenzas (Denis Thorne, Gerry Marshall and Jenny Dell) plus a Hillman Avenger GT (Bernard Unett).

I also have a programme from 3rd April 1972 at Brands and that is for the "Evening News - Castrol Production Saloon Car Championship Race" and in Class B-£801 to £1100 there are two Firenzas (Gerry Marshall and Tim Stock), Hillman Avenger GT (Bernard Unett) and an NSU 1200 TT (Edward Hinton) and then in Class C-£601 to £800 there are two Ford Escort Sports (Juliette Scott-Gunn and Jeremy Walton) and a BLMC Mini Clubman (Micki Vandervell).

Now I've waffled on with the above I'm not too sure what the difference was between Production Saloons and Group 1 in 1972 (didn't Group 1 start in '71?) and in the blurb of the programme for the Group 1 race it refers to them as Production Saloons so maybe no-one really knew!!

[RS2000]

As far as I can recall it, the "price-based" saloon series was std production rather than Gp1. If this race was the price-based std prod, that would be why 1601cc Mexicos were there. Can't really tell from the photos but std prod was road tyres and Gp1 racing tyres?
It becomes an historical nightmare to keep track of specs when the British Saloon Car Championship went "Gp1" (because it never did - it was even colloquially known as "Group1 and a half" and was never true FIA Gp1 in the way rallying was). Most race drivers never drove a true Gp1 car unless they competed in International events.

[Paul Taylor]

Excellent to see these photos online here after those in an earlier thread have been taken offline. Research told me it was in a Production Saloon Car Championship race, but I have no definite proof without the race programme.

 

Now, can anyone confirm; is this also Gerry Marshall? He had an Elan borrowed from the Barnet Motor Company and crashed it at Brands Hatch in 1965 according to Wikipedia, and I suspect this is it. I can't find any details of which race/meeting though, help would be appreciated.

 

Edited by Paul Taylor, 02 November 2015 - 01:44.

[pete53]

Excellent to see these photos online here after those in an earlier thread have been taken offline. Research told me it was in a Production Saloon Car Championship race, but I have no definite proof without the race programme.

 

Now, can anyone confirm; is this also Gerry Marshall? He had an Elan borrowed from the Barnet Motor Company and crashed it at Brands Hatch in 1965 according to Wikipedia, and I suspect this is it. I can't find any details of which race/meeting though, help would be appreciated.

 

This could be Boxing Day 1965. Gerry was entered in the Elan with race number 83. The number on the side of the car in the photo is indistinct but could be "83".

[Paul Taylor]

It very much looks like 83 on my monitor. Actually it looks like the number's been drawn on with chalk! Do you have details of which race please?

[pete53]

It very much looks like 83 on my monitor. Actually it looks like the number's been drawn on with chalk! Do you have details of which race please?

Yes Paul, it was the Redex Trophy Race for Grand Touring Cars (10laps). The Elan had a 1650cc engine which meant that it ran in the 1601-2500cc class as opposed to the usual 1151-1600 section. I believe David Piper won the race in a Ferrari 250GTO.

[Paul Taylor]

Many thanks Pete! 

[Gregor Marshall]

The above picture is my late Dad in the Barnet Motor Company Elan, but no, it's not the Boxing Day meeting at Brands Hatch in 1965.
David Piper did win the race and Dad was second after having a "great dice" with David's GTO - this is according to Motoring News (30/12/65), Autosport (31/12/65), the February edition of Motor Sport, the hand written results in the programme and was recorded in Only Here for the Beer.
I believe this photo is either from 31st July 1966 BARC and Circle Car Club Sprint, where the Autosport (5/8/66) race report says "Went off on a streaming wet track and car suffered" or it could be 17th July 1966 Jaguar Drivers Club & BP Auto Club Sprint, where the Autosport (22/7/66) race report says "On a wet track aquaplaned off at Paddock Hill Bend and pretty much wrote off the BarMoCo Elan".
All I know for both events is Dad was driving a Lotus Elan and it was a Barnet Motor Company car, so could be either of these, but I don't have a programme to cross reference the car number or exact entry, just the Autosport reports.

[Lee Nicolle]

As far as I can recall it, the "price-based" saloon series was std production rather than Gp1. If this race was the price-based std prod, that would be why 1601cc Mexicos were there. Can't really tell from the photos but std prod was road tyres and Gp1 racing tyres?
It becomes an historical nightmare to keep track of specs when the British Saloon Car Championship went "Gp1" (because it never did - it was even colloquially known as "Group1 and a half" and was never true FIA Gp1 in the way rallying was). Most race drivers never drove a true Gp1 car unless they competed in International events.

The 111 Vauxhall is defenitly on slicks, and seemingly wider rims too, as do all the cars seem to be. It appears the 'usual' the axle broke off out side the bearing [slicks load up  the axles far more] that caused the car to shed a wheel and probably punctured the tank causing the fire.