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USGP back in '09?


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#1 ColdHeart

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 18:34

A little faith is required here but.........

Published reports have Tony George making a proposal to Champ Car to buy their series and merge with the IRL/ICS; that proposal was apparently turned down but he continues to talk with one of the series owner's, Kevin Kalkhoven about some kind of a deal. He is also reportedly talking to individual CC teams about getting them to run his series, the Indy 500 or both, regardless of whether CC continues as a series or not. And IMS has raised substantially raised the prize money for the Indy 500 and the IRL introduced a new subsidy program that will pay out a lot more money.

Worth noting that Tony George could not take his turn in his team's car this morning at the Rolex 24 as he was 'called away for an important meeting.' What could be so important on a Sunday morning in Florida? Could it be that he had to talk with ISC/NASCAR about race dates for a merged series at the tracks they own?

What's the motivation, where is all the money coming from now? Certainly Honda has an interest but lurking in the shadows is another party that wants to see a unified open wheel series and, along with it, a larger presence for F-1.

If the IRL somehow unifies/merges with Champ Car, that new single series will have a new television contract with a different network in the US and as part of this process, F-1 will move as well............and the USGP will return next year.

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#2 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 18:44

You've lost me. What is preventing the USGP currently, that is fixed or move out of the way by a unified USOW series?

#3 ColdHeart

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 19:02

Money. The mystery force behind this deal has a lot of it and are willing to spend on a unified series American open wheel series as well as F-1.

The USGP went away because IMS could not find a title sponsor willing to pay what it would take to allow IMS to cover Bernie's sanction fee. Widely known that Bernie took less money from IMS to get the race off the ground in the early years; when he proposed cranking that fee up to get the USGP in line with the rest of the F-1 races, the USGP no longer made financial sense. Having a 3rd party come on board to narrow the gap could make the race financially viable.

#4 jonpollak

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 19:06

Originally posted by ColdHeart
Worth noting that Tony George could not take his turn in his team's car this morning at the Rolex 24 as he was 'called away for an important meeting.'?

Nah..
A team engineer sent him a bogus txt msg demanding him to go to Miami for the specific purpose of keeping him out of the car when his stint came round.
;)
Jp

#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 19:08

Originally posted by ColdHeart
Money. The mystery force behind this deal has a lot of it and are willing to spend on a unified series American open wheel series as well as F-1.

The USGP went away because IMS could not find a title sponsor willing to pay what it would take to allow IMS to cover Bernie's sanction fee. Widely known that Bernie took less money from IMS to get the race off the ground in the early years; when he proposed cranking that fee up to get the USGP in line with the rest of the F-1 races, the USGP no longer made financial sense. Having a 3rd party come on board to narrow the gap could make the race financially viable.


Honda are already underwriting Suzuka, if they wanted to get extra attention in America they'd be better off paying for Marco Andretti than subsidising the USGP.

#6 oneGurneyfan

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 20:13

Open wheel racing in the US, in whichever guise it happens to be in at the moment, has shown an amazing ability to marginalize itself in the minds of the American "racing public". They have managed to squander a very high level of interest, which was developed over numerous decades, by implementing the "divide and conquer" strategy...on themselves. I can't imagine any of these people cooperating to any degree, especially not one that would result in the resurrection of this historic formula.................and how they could successfully integrate F1 into this is beyond me (and them!). It will take more than someone with money.

#7 Ivan

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 20:46

The title of this thread and the post that came with it have nothing in common? :

#8 wingwalker

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 22:22

Yeah, I'm lost too.


But that would be cool. This track is dull, but it often produces good racing - US GP in 2007 was I think second best dry race of the season, only after Brasil (and maybe Canada, but that was more 'action packed' than 'good racing')

#9 president evil

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:13

If the US GP ever comes back I hope its not to Indianapolis. THey've just butchered it again to accomadate something on two wheels.. can they ruin it any further ? Probably..

#10 zywiec

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:05

I agree with president evil regarding a return to Indy. I also don't want to see an alternative track turned into a parking lot (run-off areas, etc...) to comply with F1 standards. The original post was lost on me but, I think the IRL Champ Car split was the most damaging thing done to motorsport in the States. Then again that schism was fallout from breaking away from USAC.

#11 ColdHeart

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 05:14

Bernie says that if F-1 can't succeed at Indianapolis, it can't work anywhere in the US.

As for my original post, all I can say is that there is a heavily financed outside party that would like to see one open wheel series and is willing to invest money to make it happen which is why Tony George made his offer to CCWS. IF this move is successful, this same party will help to see the USGP return next year.

If, on the other hand, both the IRL and CCWS continue next year, this party will sit on their wallet a while longer.

#12 AyePirate

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 05:31

Originally posted by ColdHeart
Bernie says that if F-1 can't succeed at Indianapolis, it can't work anywhere in the US.


Bernie says a lot of things. He also gripes about Indianapolis (City not posh enough).
The bottom line is if you have his money, you have a race. It's just that promoters like to promote races for profit not merely
the pleasure of watching Bernie turn a profit.

CC and IRL are like two cannibals on a life raft, waiting for the other one to die so he can eat.

#13 shaggy

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:19

Originally posted by ColdHeart
Bernie says that if F-1 can't succeed at Indianapolis, it can't work anywhere in the US.

As for my original post, all I can say is that there is a heavily financed outside party that would like to see one open wheel series and is willing to invest money to make it happen which is why Tony George made his offer to CCWS. IF this move is successful, this same party will help to see the USGP return next year.

If, on the other hand, both the IRL and CCWS continue next year, this party will sit on their wallet a while longer.

Gurney and Hill ? ........

That outside party you mentioned must be as clueless as TG.

shaggy

#14 ColdHeart

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 01:35

Negotiations are heating up between Formula One and Indianapolis Motor Speedway officials that could bring F1 racing back to Indianapolis in 2009. Speedway boss Tony George told an audience at yesterday’s IU Business Conference that he’d like to bring Formula One back in time for the Brickyard’s centennial celebration. The facility opened in 1909.

Just Marketing, an Indianapolis-based firm that pairs sponsors with motorsports properties, has been hired by the IMS to help sign a title sponsor for the F1 race. Just Marketing President Zak Brown said F1 czar Bernie Ecclestone and the series’ existing sponsors have a “strong interest” in returning.

“I know there’s been talk of having an F1 race at Las Vegas or Miami, but the Speedway is the only facility in the U.S. that is up to F1 standards,” Brown said. “Indianapolis is turnkey and ready to go. If the right sponsors can be put into place, I think this can happen in 2009.”

Brown said he and George had private meetings with potential sponsors late last year, and those discussions are progressing. Brown called interest among companies willing to fork over an eight-figure sum for a multi-year title sponsorship “fairly high.”

“I think F1 will come back,” Brown said. “At this point, I think it’s a matter of when, not if.”

F1 officials announce their schedule for the following year by late August. “We’d have to have a deal done by then,” Brown said. “The sooner we can make an announcement, the sooner [Speedway officials] can start marketing and promotions and selling tickets.”

If F1 races back into Indianapolis, Brown thinks it will stay for a long time.

“Tony wants to have F1 at his track for the rest of his life,” Brown said. “F1 is a huge global brand, and it fits with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway’s history.” George is 48.



Scroll down a bit....

#15 Andretti Fan

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 03:15

Is this the same Zak Brown who was a promising open wheeler in the early 90's?

#16 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 05:17

Interesting. Normally the event sponsorship goes into FOM's pocket. So why Brown be looking for money for the speedway?

#17 jonpollak

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Posted 20 March 2008 - 21:08

I was just sent the following link
http://www.grandprix...ns/ns20138.html

Not that it really means anything yet but...

Jp

#18 Bumper

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 02:04

Originally posted by jonpollak
I was just sent the following link
http://www.grandprix...ns/ns20138.html

Not that it really means anything yet but...

Jp


Other than it being a summary of Coldheart's quoted news in post 14, it doesn't give us any new info unfortunately.

So would the title sponsorship for the Indy race indeed go to FOM or IMS? Or would Bernie be so desperate to get the USA back he would make an exception and allow IMS to keep the race title sponsor money?

#19 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 03:09

Originally posted by Bumper


Other than it being a summary of Coldheart's quoted news in post 14, it doesn't give us any new info unfortunately.

So would the title sponsorship for the Indy race indeed go to FOM or IMS? Or would Bernie be so desperate to get the USA back he would make an exception and allow IMS to keep the race title sponsor money?


FTG just tore up the F1 track for bikes.
Is he gonna tear it up again for F1?
Or in his feeble brain does he think the rubes are going to flock back to the i500 now that it's 'merged' so he can pay Bernie and the Frances?
Hilarious.
As the world turns in cornfieldville...

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#20 Bumper

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 03:23

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


FTG just tore up the F1 track for bikes.
Is he gonna tear it up again for F1?


Yeah I'm not too happy about MotoGP racing there, I hate infield tracks, the bikes should be racing at the state of the art and beautiful Miller Motorsports Park or Barber Motorsports Park. Gues it's not as glamourous though....

But obviously for F1 the F1 configuration is already there at IMS so they wouldn't really have to 'tear it up' again.

#21 ColdHeart

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 04:00

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


FTG just tore up the F1 track for bikes.
Is he gonna tear it up again for F1?


You keep saying that. You're wrong.

What IMS did was to add a set of turns inside the oval turn 1 to keep the bikes off the banking. If - when - F-1 returns, they would not have to run these new corners, they could use the same configuration they've used in previous USGPs.

#22 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 05:39

The bit I don't understand is Just Marketing. All sponsorship revenues of F1 races go to FOM, not IMS. So Zak Brown can try to find all the money he wants, it wont help pay the Indy sanction fee.

#23 Bumper

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 09:06

That's why I'm thinking some kind of deal is being done, where IMS can keep (part of) the sponsor revenue?

When Bernie threatened to leave Indy, they called his bluff, and I kind of think he did not expect that. I also suspect sponsors are putting a lot of pressure on Bernie to have a USA race back as it is such an important market for them, and he is now backtracking a bit trying to get a mutual agreement with IMS?

Doesn't sound like Bernie I know as he usually calls the ropes and him only, but the USA market is just too important to miss out on for F1 and maybe he realises that.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong :drunk:

#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 09:30

Monaco and I think Monza keep some of their sponsorship because they've been around so long and are so valuable they could agree that deal eons ago when the current FOM deals were set up. If Indy can do it, Silverstone will be next, then Valencia and Sinagpore will want to keep money to help pay for the street costs, etc etc.

#25 Bumper

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 09:55

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
If Indy can do it, Silverstone will be next, then Valencia and Sinagpore will want to keep money to help pay for the street costs, etc etc.


I don't think so. The USA market is fairly crucial. Silverstone is in no position to make any demands right now, sponsors are not vying to enter/cover the UK market, it's saturated, unlike with the USA. Same applies to Valencia (a government effort). Singapore would have a bit more leeway as it is part of the very important Asian market, although it too is a government effort and can afford to spend an endless amount of money on it. But there are numerous Asian countries who could substitute, whereas there is only one American market. Look at Malaysia, they are already bending over backwards to accommodate Bernie as already he is threatening to take that race away too if they don't provide for a night race from 2010 on.

#26 SeanValen

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 10:21

I still dream of a circuit around Las Vagas, and or New York, if you wanna do America properly, gotta do it where the big shots are, plus make enough noise all the US chat shows start talking about it, when it's Indy, it's seems it won't reach fantastic heights. Miami could be cool as well.

If your going to bring the USGP back, do something different, experiment a bit, you need Monaco style in America, everyone knows Monaco, even Amercians who are not into f1, what America needs is something like Monaco that creates a spectacle where everyone wants to be seen. Europe loves f1, but the world loves Monaco, America loves Monaco more then Indy GP, fact if it was close by.

Bernie needs Las Vegas or some other place, just to create more discussion and spectacle. Street circuits are better some f1 tracks like Fuji which only gave us a great race last year because it rained.

#27 aportinga

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 13:34

Originally posted by Bumper


I don't think so. The USA market is fairly crucial.


I am not sure I buy this. I mean maybe for Ferrari and Mercedes but Toyota and Honda already do well here. In emerging markets in the Far and Middle East they are in line to sell a shit load more product then they will in the States - at a much quicker rate - as these markets continue to grow.

Someone should run up an analysis on cost of advertising vs. sales in the Sates compared to advertising vs. sales in these emerging markets.

#28 polymath

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 13:50

Originally posted by SeanValen

If your going to bring the USGP back, do something different, experiment a bit, you need Monaco style in America,


Vegas smeagas :down:

Chicago along lake shore drive & through grant park would be a great setting. Chicago is a world class city with all the trappings and in reality is the financial center of the US.

#29 firebone

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 14:42

americans would love a las vegas gp, ferraris and mac's roaring by in the late afternoon with big neons, pyramids, and rollercoasters in the background :love:

#30 jaisli

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 15:10

Originally posted by firebone
americans would love a las vegas gp, ferraris and mac's roaring by in the late afternoon with big neons, pyramids, and rollercoasters in the background :love:


Or better yet, why not set up a temporary course in the parking lot of Ceaser's Palace. I'm surprised nobody has ever thought of it before.

I'm not a huge fan of the IMS. But I don't think street circuits and modern F1 cars are a good combination. Maybe to put on a show or an exhibition. But not a race. Monaco works because of tradition and the glamor. But as a race itself, it's not terribly impressive or exciting. Maybe I'll feel differently after seeing Singapore and Valencia this year. But in general I'd rather see the cars racing on a purpose built track.

But if F1 comes back to the US and doesn't go to the IMS, a street circuit might be the only realistic answer. I can't think of another track in the US that would work. Road Atlanta, Road America, Miller Motorsports Park; they're all nice. But none of them have the budget or the infrastructure to support a Grand Prix.

#31 Flynnie

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 20:20

Originally posted by jaisli


Or better yet, why not set up a temporary course in the parking lot of Ceaser's Palace. I'm surprised nobody has ever thought of it before.

I'm not a huge fan of the IMS. But I don't think street circuits and modern F1 cars are a good combination. Maybe to put on a show or an exhibition. But not a race. Monaco works because of tradition and the glamor. But as a race itself, it's not terribly impressive or exciting. Maybe I'll feel differently after seeing Singapore and Valencia this year. But in general I'd rather see the cars racing on a purpose built track.

But if F1 comes back to the US and doesn't go to the IMS, a street circuit might be the only realistic answer. I can't think of another track in the US that would work. Road Atlanta, Road America, Miller Motorsports Park; they're all nice. But none of them have the budget or the infrastructure to support a Grand Prix.

I don't get the love for Miller Motorsports Park. It's just a bunch of hairpins, enough that there's a ridiculously long circuit.

#32 vapaokie

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 21:28

Originally posted by ColdHeart


You keep saying that. You're wrong.

What IMS did was to add a set of turns inside the oval turn 1 to keep the bikes off the banking. If - when - F-1 returns, they would not have to run these new corners, they could use the same configuration they've used in previous USGPs.


Not exactly, they did tear up Mickey and Mouse (F1 turns 9 & 10)-

http://www.redbullin...ral/Track_Map/1

#33 ColdHeart

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Posted 21 March 2008 - 23:27

Here's the F-1 map:


Posted Image

Note that it runs the opposite direction of the bikes and that F-1 wouldn't have to run MotoGP turns 1-2-3-4.

No reason why the cars couldn't use the rest of the course as they did before.

#34 Scudetto

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 01:43

Originally posted by polymath
Chicago along lake shore drive & through grant park would be a great setting. Chicago is a world class city with all the trappings and in reality is the financial center of the US.


Word. :up:

#35 wingwalker

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 01:52

Originally posted by ColdHeart
Here's the F-1 map:


Posted Image

Note that it runs the opposite direction of the bikes and that F-1 wouldn't have to run MotoGP turns 1-2-3-4.

No reason why the cars couldn't use the rest of the course as they did before.



It looks like the old one, with T9 and 10 intact.

#36 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 02:08

Originally posted by wingwalker



It looks like the old one, with T9 and 10 intact.

It looks like crap. And those that bitch about street courses, the ims course is equal or worse.

#37 ColdHeart

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 04:19

And once again you change the subject, deflect and refuse to admit you were wrong. At least you are consistent.

#38 pingu666

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 04:31

f1 cars on a oval perhaps? with the old back endplates like they had in champ cars (maybe still do?) for crazy drafting :D

long beach is quite nice, or maybe something in the desert, around some monument vally type of thing

#39 Texas

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Posted 22 March 2008 - 04:45

Originally posted by polymath


Vegas smeagas :down:

Chicago along lake shore drive & through grant park would be a great setting. Chicago is a world class city with all the trappings and in reality is the financial center of the US.


I agree with Chicago. My favorite big city in the states. Now if they wanted to build a real track here in Austin, Texas... that would be the ultimate. But I guess we're not quite "International" enough.

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#40 vapaokie

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 21:36

Originally posted by ColdHeart
Here's the F-1 map:


Posted Image

Note that it runs the opposite direction of the bikes and that F-1 wouldn't have to run MotoGP turns 1-2-3-4.

No reason why the cars couldn't use the rest of the course as they did before.


You are correct in that is the map of the old F1 track on somebody's (private) website dated as 03 pics (image data- www.indymotorspeedway.com/03pics/f1map3.jpg).

Check from the OFFICIAL Indianapolis speedway site-

http://www.redbullin...m/construction/

Select V2, pan right, and tell me where turns 9 & 10 and the tree on the inside of turn 9 are? The picture is dated today Mar 24, 2008.

#41 Sakae

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 21:57

Whatever location, I wish they would stay then put, and start building a tradition to which one can clinch and plan for it. With today's schedule the races are far apart, unpredictable future - next year(?), and once you build some ties with a place, Bernie moves it... just terrible. I had three favorite tracks I used to go every year with die-hard friends, and then we had lost two our favorite tracks to new developments, including memories. Chicago is fine, but for Christ sake, let it develop into something one can go to for years.

The only problem with Chico is it's darn wheather; one doesn't want to see cars flying like kites in the wind.

#42 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 23:42

It has yet to be given a fair chance at Indy.

$7 million? That's an apartment in New York: surely that can be obtained *somewhere*.

"Someone" once said long ago - "it's too bad Microsoft isn't in F1 somehow"...

Regardless, I'd think there should be plenty willing to get that much national and international air time - Coke, Pepsi, McDonald's... I mean - $7 million?

/ Now that Champcar is gone - how much $$$$$ did McDonald's have invested in that?
// Misses the GP at Indy
/// The U.S. is potentially F1's largest market

#43 ColdHeart

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 18:04

Dieter Rencken seems to think there's a chance that next year's F-1 schedule could be expanded and the USGP added. IMS will not pay as much as Bernie wants so there is a difference of some $6-9 million that IMS won't pay and Bernie won't ignore so..... the balance of this sanction fee would, in effect, be paid by a corresponding reduction in the total fees paid to the teams. The teams can take a deduction in order to perform in front of a number of US-based sponsors and to reach the big US market.

After all, if the sport can remove the traditional three-week break in August without notice, what is a hectic fortnight between friends? The period from Canada to Germany would look thus:

7 June Canada
14 June United States
28 June France
5 July Great Britain
12 July Germany

That would provide Ecclestone with the 20-race calendar he and his cohorts so desperately need whilst giving the teams - certainly the manufacturer operations and Red Bull's two outfits - their much-desired exposure in a major market.