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Is Sebastian Loeb the greatest rally driver ever?


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#1 ensign14

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:09

Just wondering what people think. I know it's difficult to compare across eras, especially when rallies in the past were a totally different beast, but he seems to be dominating the competition more than the Mikkolas did in their day...or is the competition much weaker than it was before?

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#2 HSJ

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:22

For me rallying is perhaps at an all-time low. The talent just isn't there at the moment, neither in the drivers nor the teams. There are just two competitive teams, when there used to be many more in the past. It all changed with Peugeot and then Citroen taking the financial competition to a level that the others couldn't follow. Incidentally that then lead to Peugeot withdrawing... Driver-wise Loeb is okay, probably no better than Grönholm though (just in different teams and cars), and Grönholm wasn't an all time great, just above average really. What's left after Marcus is even worse now, Loeb simply has no competition due to a talent vacuum. His results are even better due to there being little competition in terms of teams. Marcus too started to rack up a lot of wins simply due to these cirumstances, even though he was nowhere near such drivers as Mäkinen and Kankkunen of the past.

Is Loeb the greatest? No, not even close. He's above average, but probably not even one of the all-time greats really. People who are hung up on stats will think otherwise, of course. You should take note of Loeb's start in WRC and compare him to nobodies in the other Citroen cars who could still utterly dominate rallies against actually quite talented drivers in much lesser cars. That and that Loeb has not had a decent teammate yet. Tells you everything you need to know.

#3 Atreiu

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:46

I've seen this before but with some words switched. :)


Is Loeb the greatest? Possibly, but we'll only know in hindsight. If for some reason he wasn't around, Gronholm could have won a lot more we might have even been thinking it was him.

#4 KeyserSoze27

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:04

Originally posted by Atreiu
I've seen this before but with some words switched. :)


:rotfl:

Just the names changed ;)

#5 selespeed

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:05

That and that Loeb has not had a decent teammate yet. Tells you everything you need to know.




carlos sainz and colin mcrae are nobodies...yeah right..

#6 Cinquecento

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:16

He's the most succesful driver in WRC at least. Masters tarmac and gravel, which is what makes him so good. Beyond that it's hard to compare, but he was able to beat Gronholm on gravel and anybody on tarmac. I rank him amongst classics.

#7 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:23

hasn't he won sweeden? a non-scandinavian winning there?

#8 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:23

It would be quite tragic if the world's greatest rally driver wasn't Scandinavian.

Don't forget 2003 he wasn't allowed to fight for the title he had to settle for 2nd in order to ensure that Citroen won the constructors championship. If it werent for those 2 points he would have had 5 wdc in a row already. And in 2003 the "kid" disposed of Sainz and McRae. Also take a look at who he was up against in 2003. http://en.wikipedia....pionship_season

2001: Wins FIA Super 1600 championship with Citroen - then in 2002 he wins his first rally beating team mates McRae and Sainz.

Above average? yeah right

Also remember that he only started entering French Citroën Saxo Events in 1998 so he has been rallying a very short time.

#9 Andy Donovan

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:27

Same as HSJ, I think our opinion of him would be very different had he been racing 15 years ago. Without Gronholm around next year, surely it's about the safest bet in history on Loeb taking the title again. I can imagine Hirvonen being the only one who'll even come close to him.

He's definitely pretty good, but he's not the best. Against Sainz, McRae, Makkinen et al he'd have been solid but unspectacular - several wins but only a championship with luck on his side.

#10 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:34

Originally posted by Andy Donovan
Same as HSJ, I think our opinion of him would be very different had he been racing 15 years ago. Without Gronholm around next year, surely it's about the safest bet in history on Loeb taking the title again. I can imagine Hirvonen being the only one who'll even come close to him.

He's definitely pretty good, but he's not the best. Against Sainz, McRae, Makkinen et al he'd have been solid but unspectacular - several wins but only a championship with luck on his side.


In 2001 he had a 1 off run in a Xsara (pretty untested at that stage) in the San Remo rally, it was his WRC debut. He hounded Gilles Panizzi the whole rally (Panizzi in the Peugeot and a tarmac specialist of note) won with Loeb eventually finishing 2nd to him by just over 10 secs. The first podium for the Xsara in 2001. How many WRC deuts have been anywhere near as impressive?

#11 santori

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 11:44

As much as you can say someone is the best, yes, he might be the best. The WRC is in an unfortunate state right now, but if it were more competitive he'd still be winning. Just not quite as often.

To echo Gilles4Ever, it's not as if he and others of his generation arrived in a vacuum - Loeb's speed eased Sainz and McRae into retirement; Solberg's speed eased Makkinen into retirement. Then the bottom fell out of the WRC but that wasn't their fault. Gronholm was already taking on and beating the formidable talents of the nineties - to say he's average is absurd and suggests A) that someone hasn't been watching and B) that he's being sacrificed to downgrade Loeb so as to reserve the no. 1 spot for another Finn.

#12 jcbc3

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:38

:up:

#13 jcbc3

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:39

And no, I don't know the definitive answer to the posed question. But I DO know that Loeb belong in a discussion about it.

#14 FAUST!!!

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:43

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
It would be quite tragic if the world's greatest rally driver wasn't Scandinavian.

Don't forget 2003 he wasn't allowed to fight for the title he had to settle for 2nd in order to ensure that Citroen won the constructors championship. If it werent for those 2 points he would have had 5 wdc in a row already. And in 2003 the "kid" disposed of Sainz and McRae. Also take a look at who he was up against in 2003. http://en.wikipedia....pionship_season

2001: Wins FIA Super 1600 championship with Citroen - then in 2002 he wins his first rally beating team mates McRae and Sainz.

Above average? yeah right

Also remember that he only started entering French Citroën Saxo Events in 1998 so he has been rallying a very short time.



The "kid" is the best driver of the current era. Active differentials was the thing that disposed Sainz and particulary McRae. Also Loeb depends too much on his co-driver Elena and his notes, on new stages is not particularly strong and a master on re-runs. There were some comments about his spotters too and resulting in his always spot-on tyre choices. These things and perhaps that he was not around in the nineties can not rank him as an alltime great IMO. But he is waaayy about averrage.

#15 Makarias

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 13:14

As already mentioned, the current generation already proved itself competitive against the big names of the nineties: Loeb, Solberg and retiree Grönholm all had success against the oldtimers. Calling Grönholm "just above average" is purely ridiculous, seeing how he trounced fine drivers like Burns and Märtin in equal equipment.
And now it seems like Atkinson is often able to match or even beat Petter, so I'm inclined to think that the limbo the WRC currently is in mainly has to do with a lack of competitive rides rather than lack of talent.
There is no absolute answer to who is the greatest rally driver ever, but anyone ruling out Loeb from the discussion at an early point deserves to be vehemently ridiculed, or should have an appointment with a shrink.

#16 jcbc3

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 13:22

They can only play by the rules and conditions given to them. Under the current circumstances Loeb has proved himself way above any contemporary. Kankkunen had his period of dominance. Mäkinen his. And no one comes close in regard to hard results unless their record is collected over a very long time period. That includes Sainz and McRae which were blindingly good and capable rally drivers but on a WRC count are 'only' at three titles put together. Sainz was consistently good. McRae sporadically excellent. Who else is there since 1979? If you look up the different drivers no one really stood above their peers except maybe Toivonen. And sadly his career was cut short.

#17 Group B

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 13:55

Henri Toivonen :cool: :clap: :(

#18 RSNS

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 14:36

Sorry for asking such a dumb question, but I do not follow rallies. Why is the championship in a 'low'?

From what I saw (Eurosport) it seemed to me that Loeb's driving was very smooth. He is not spectacular the way McRae was, but he seems efficient. Could that be the reason why some of the members of this forum underrate him?

#19 selespeed

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 14:55

very smooth and very precise...

http://nl.youtube.co...h?v=hgyZHYRGpTY

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#20 tormave

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 15:03

Impossible to say who is the greatest of all time. Rallying today is a very different sport from what it was in the old times. Rallies used to be a lot longer both in terms of mileage per day in terms of how many days and nights they drove. For instance. the Safari rally was more like the modern Dakar event with special stages that lasted a full day.

Having said that, I think Loeb is definitely at least amongst the greatest, if not the greatest. I am Finnish, but this guy just sets a standard for consistency and pace across all surfaces that I fail to remember anyone having done before. Yes, he does it at a time when few people have access to decent equipment and rallies are just short sprints rather than endurance events, but nevertheless he's something very, very special.

#21 juu-joa

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 15:31

I think Loeb is one of the best, and the best driver in the 21th century. Though, he doesn't come close to any of the true legends from the old times. Winning those days had a totally different meaning than it does these days, that's why you cant compare the statics, it's like comparing Ascari's and Schumacher's statistics.

#22 FAUST!!!

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 15:32

Originally posted by RSNS
Sorry for asking such a dumb question, but I do not follow rallies. Why is the championship in a 'low'?

From what I saw (Eurosport) it seemed to me that Loeb's driving was very smooth. He is not spectacular the way McRae was, but he seems efficient. Could that be the reason why some of the members of this forum underrate him?




Because as a modern driver he is breed with active differentials and smooth driving is the fastest way around a Stage nowadays. As for McRae he is from the old style masters where they used to throw the car with the doors in the corners and that was indeed very spectacular.

#23 Fortymark

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 15:59

Originally posted by Group B
Henri Toivonen :cool: :clap: :(


:up:

The Gilles Villeneuve of Rally

#24 Kimi on nopein

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 16:15

Originally posted by Group B
Henri Toivonen :cool: :clap: :(

Absolutely.

#25 GT Racing Online Magazine

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 16:37

Originally posted by Group B
Henri Toivonen :cool: :clap: :(


Thirded :up: :up: truly the man who would be king..




#26 Panch

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 17:01

Henri Toivonen :up:

In Finland there was a couple months ago a vote for the Greatest Finnish Rally Hero . The results was:

1. Tommi Mäkinen WDC -96,-97,-98,-99
2. Juha Kankkunen -86,-87,-91,-93
3. Marcus Grönholm -00,-02
4. Henri Toivonen -
5. Markku Alén -78
6. Hannu Mikkola -83
7. Ari Vatanen -81
8. Timo Mäkinen
9. Timo Salonen -85
10. Simo Lampinen -

#27 mahelgel

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 17:37

Originally posted by selespeed
very smooth and very precise...

http://nl.youtube.co...h?v=hgyZHYRGpTY


That is one scary clip :eek:

Isn't that man supposed to keep the spectators away from the road? and wtf did he stroll over the road when you clearly hear the rally car approaching??

#28 big x

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 18:24

Originally posted by mahelgel


That is one scary clip :eek:

Isn't that man supposed to keep the spectators away from the road? and wtf did he stroll over the road when you clearly hear the rally car approaching??


Like most Gendarmes he is a bungalow.... not much upstairsPosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

adam

#29 Bloggsworth

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 18:25

He may just be the greatest driver ever...................

#30 race

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 19:53

Originally posted by HSJ
For me rallying is perhaps at an all-time low. The talent just isn't there at the moment, neither in the drivers nor the teams. There are just two competitive teams, when there used to be many more in the past. It all changed with Peugeot and then Citroen taking the financial competition to a level that the others couldn't follow. Incidentally that then lead to Peugeot withdrawing... Driver-wise Loeb is okay, probably no better than Grönholm though (just in different teams and cars), and Grönholm wasn't an all time great, just above average really. What's left after Marcus is even worse now, Loeb simply has no competition due to a talent vacuum. His results are even better due to there being little competition in terms of teams. Marcus too started to rack up a lot of wins simply due to these cirumstances, even though he was nowhere near such drivers as Mäkinen and Kankkunen of the past.


After Grönholm retiring, the season will be a snooze fest with Loeb racking up wins without serious competition (except in Finland and Sweden), but I have to say I disagree with just about everything else. In my opinion Grönholm and Loeb are both better than McRae, Sainz, Mäkinen and Kankkunen ever were. It's easy to say that the old stars lost their motivation (or talent?) and were therefore beaten by the younger generation, but the fact remains they were clearly beaten. None of them really retired at the top (like Grönholm). They were driven into retirement when they couldn't keep up with the young guns anymore. And even at the top of their game they made more mistakes than Loeb, weren't as consistent or as equally good on gravel and tarmac. Solberg has driven alongside and against both generations, but regards Grönholm and Loeb better than anybody.

In WRC it takes time to learn all the roads and tricks, which is why you don't see rookies taking on their world champion team mates like in F1. It doesn't mean that they won't ever get better at it. Grönholm and Loeb certainly got better when they matured and could drive consistently fast without making many mistakes.

The problem in WRC is that there isn't a level playing field like there used to be, but it's not Grönholm's or Loeb's fault that they've dominated recent years. I don't think Hirvonen will be able to match Loeb, but Latvala might have the talent to do that in a few years.

#31 Mauseri

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 20:12

Loeb is an above average driver for sure, but most importantly very well integrated with his team. Other drivers who come and go will not have a chance to compete against him. He is more of a product of Citroen than his own all time great.

Talentless Hirvonen being has the other strong and stabile seat and that's sad.

A couple years ago it was more competitive, with McRae, Mäkinen, Sainz, Sollberg, Märtin, Burns, Grönholm all in good cars. Loeb will dominate the next 5 years and that says more about the tragic situation of WRC than his skills.

#32 COUGAR508

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 20:49

The quality at the absolute front is perhaps comparable with previous eras, but the depth, compared to the period 1980-1995, is not there.

#33 Apocalypse

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 21:41

The greatest?

Henri Toivonen, the legend.

#34 DAVETHELEG

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 22:12

THE QUESTION. IS LOEB THE GREATEST, NO. BUT HE IS VERY GOOD .THE PROBLEM IS THAT RALLYING TODAY IS NOT WHAT IT WAS IN ITS HEYDAY .RALLIES ARE NOT THE LENGTH THEY WERE AND SOME ARE NOT AS TOUGH AS THEY WERE ,WHICH MEANS THAT RALLIES WERE HARDER TO FINISH AND THE FACT THAT LOEB HAS WON AS MANY AS HE HAS JUST WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED, ADD THIS TO THE FACT THAT THERE WERE MORE GOOD RALLY DRIVERS COMPETING IN MORE WORKS RALLY TEAMS AND THE WINS WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE EVENLY SPREAD. THE REASON GIVEN FOR THE REDUCTION IN LENGTH WAS IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR TELIVISION SCHEDULES. NOW, ONE COULD SAY WHAT TELEVISION! ON SUNDAY I WATCHED THE MONTE CARLO RALLY ON DAVE, IT WAS THE BIGEST LOAD OF RUBBISH I HAVE SEEN IN A LONG WHILE .TO MUCH CHAT, NOT ENOUGH STAGE FOOTAGE ,HALF OF THE PROGAMME THE COMMENTATOR SPENT TOO MUCH TIME WANDERING ABOUT IN MONTE CARLO IN A GERMAN MINI. HE COULD HAVE AT LEAST USED A 1275 COOPER "S", A PROPER MINI ,AN INSULT TO PADDY HOPKIRK. OTHER THAN THAT TOO MUCH TIME WAS SPENT IN A HELICOPTER, ALSO THE TIME SPENT ASKING SILLY QUESTIONS OF RALLY DRIVERS HE PRETENDED TO KNOW. WHAT WE WANT TO SEE IN A TV PROGRAMME IS RALLY DRIVERS DRIVING AT THE LIMIT AND SHOW MORE OF THE LESSER CARS, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WHO WINS, IT,S INTERESTING TO KNOW WHAT IS HAPPENING FURTHER DOWN THAN THE TOP 8. I PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE PEOPLE THAT RUN WORLD RALLYING HAVE TOTALLY LOST THE PLOT AND IF THEY WANT THE SPORT TO SURVIVE, THEY HAVE TO CHANGE . THERE ARE QUESTIONS THAT NEED ASKING. NO 1, WHAT DO THE PUBLIC WANT TO SEE. NO 2, WHAT SORT OF RALLIES, THOSE OF A LONGER LENGTH AND TOUGHNESS ETC. DO THE COMPETITORS WANT. NO 3. SORT OUT THE MANUFACTURERS SO THAT THEY CAN RUN CARS THAT NORMAL PEOPLE WOULD BUY, NOT CARS WITH LAUNCH CONTROL, IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER TO SEE GREAT DRIVERS IN NORMAL CARS, IT WOULD SHOW THEIR SKILL MUCH BETTER IN THIS TYPE OF CAR AND THE CAR MANUFACTURERS WOULD THEN BE ABLE TO SHOW CASE THESE CARS, WHICH WOULD BRING MANY MORE TEAMS INTO THE SPORT, WHICH WOULD IN TURN HELP. NO 4, USING THE NORMAL CARS WOULD MAKE THE PROGRAMME MORE APPEALING TO THE ORDINARY PERSON, WHICH WOULD MAKE IT MORE MARKETABLE. WHAT DO OTHER RALLY ENTHUSIASTS THINK?

#35 GeoffR

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 02:02

I PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE PEOPLE THAT RUN WORLD RALLYING HAVE TOTALLY LOST THE PLOT



The same could be said of Australian rallying at the moment!

I don't know who you could say was the best rally driver of all time. As mentioned above many different names in many different eras - Carlsson, Hopkirk, Eklund, Blomquist, Makinen (Timo), Aaltonen, Clark, Mikkola, Alen, Munari, Vatanen, Toivenen etc etc. The list is very long!!!

#36 ForMules

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 02:29

the greatest?

not yet, but next year with 5 titles in the pocket he will definitly!

Fins drivers bores me, they think because they are finns they are great!

pufffff, its the same as teams budgets, in the 80's there were 2 or 3 teams with bigest budget, as today!

Is shumacher the greastest ever? yes, he would have kicked the overated Senna, Ascari and every others at thier times racing!

ppl saying because its Ferrari big moneys are ridiculous, renault won two champs with average budget as williams in the 90's!

Ford and Subaru are big budget toys too, and when every one was thinking the Mccrae, Soldberg, Gronholm, Burns, Makinen, Sainz, Martin were better than the lil frenchman, Loeb left them in disaray on the track..

brings up longer stages, and he will trash you Toivonen and vatanen..



:eek: :p

#37 Lantern

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 03:18

I think Seb is right up there with the best of all time.

What is VERY upsetting to me is that Subaru have not kept up their part so that we could AT LEAST got to see a very long nice shootout between Petter Solberg and Seb over the past few years and the next few. :mad:

Being a fan of both, it makes for a fantastic rally when both are pushing the limit. All we have now is Seb doing exactly what he needs to do with his superior equipment to win rallies and championships. That's not his fault. If he wasn't as good as he is he could easily lose the championship even with the equipment. He's just getting the job done and well.

With that said, I'll just sit back and enjoy history being made. :)

#38 jcbc3

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 06:52

People questioning Loeb stamina and comparing todays rallies to yesteryears need to remember that Loeb does Le Mans too. And damn fine at that.

#39 speedy

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 07:48

Statistically yes.

Other than that I don't know. IMO there are too few competetive teams around now and it has been like that for a good number of years already.There's Ford and struggling Subaru...not much competition. Ford has a very young driver pair and I'm not convinced that Mikko Hirvonen could step into a great role....he somehow reminds me of the late Richard Burns. Jari-Matti is still too hot headed and it remains to be seen what he is capable of in a few years time.

In my mind Seb's value goes higher if he manages to win the rally of Finland in a convincing way. My guess is that this year is his best ever chance to do that. It's funny that he always wants to remind the interviewers that it is not important to win rally of Finland - if not, why always remind of the same thing ;) I think that it is annoying him at least a little bit - hope he can get out of the situation by winning the rally. If you want to win a place in a Finn's heart, you'd better win the thousand lakes.

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#40 juu-joa

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:19

Originally posted by ForMules
the greatest?

not yet, but next year with 5 titles in the pocket he will definitly!
Fins drivers bores me, they think because they are finns they are great!
pufffff, its the same as teams budgets, in the 80's there were 2 or 3 teams with bigest budget, as today!
Is shumacher the greastest ever? yes, he would have kicked the overated Senna, Ascari and every others at thier times racing!
ppl saying because its Ferrari big moneys are ridiculous, renault won two champs with average budget as williams in the 90's!
Ford and Subaru are big budget toys too, and when every one was thinking the Mccrae, Soldberg, Gronholm, Burns, Makinen, Sainz, Martin were better than the lil frenchman, Loeb left them in disaray on the track..
brings up longer stages, and he will trash you Toivonen and vatanen..



:eek: :p

Do you really think that Senna, Ascari and all the others (except Schumacher) are overrated? And it's not about the budget, it's about the car. Schumacher won most of his championships with a dominant car, though so did Senna, but i am sure that on track Senna is a little bit faster than Schumacher. And i really don't think that Loeb would stand a chance on a long stage driving against Vatanen or Toivonen, maybe in cars of this day, but it's like comparing the f1 turbo cars to todays f1 cars. In the 80's you could win time by being aggressive, these days you just have to keep a good line almost like on tarmac.

#41 mumu37

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:38

Forgive my ignorance (and a bit off topic i suppose)... but what is the typical budget of a 'top team'? How about small teams?

I ask because I'm wondering if cost if the number 1 limiting factor as to which there are only a few teams and fewer competitive teams. Also, do WRC cars still need to be homologated? I'm not familiar with any 4wd Citroens, Suzukis, Fords and Peugeots, only Subaru's and Mitsubishis.

On topic, although I'm not a hardcore fan of rallying, there must be something about Loeb to enable him to achieve what he has achieved. And over the years, he had have decent competition, but still came out on top. It's impossible to compare drivers across all eras, but If you were to pick the top driver on each era, Loeb would surely be on that list, IMO.

Do Citroen have number 1 and 2 drivers or Sordo just isn't talented enough?

#42 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:56

Realistically you cant compare across eras, so all you have to go on is how they do against their peers. Because driver X won in a field of "big names" doesn't mean he is better than Y who won in a field of few "big names".

Loeb has completely destroyed his peers so most automatically assume his peers must be crap. Who is to say he isn't "that" good?

We really dont have a method of determining a driver's greatness other than the statistics and if we go by those he is up there.

Why is it that an athlete who destroys all competition for years he is considered the greatest and no one questions the level of his competition?

#43 ensign14

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:12

Maybe cos anyone who can run 100m fast is going to be able to do so? There are a number of potentially great drivers who never get a break. I mean, the likes of McRae were dropped like hot coals, let alone second-rate drivers, in favour of those who have never really impressed...

#44 jcbc3

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:14

Originally posted by ensign14
... I mean, the likes of McRae were dropped like hot coals...



:rotfl:

And Birmingham is the best team ever.

#45 F1Obsession

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 10:31

Am I the only here that feels WRC is massively overrated? Sure it takes lots of skill, but it's just a glorified time attack and not proper racing. On the other hand, I love me some rallycross



#46 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 11:53

Originally posted by mumu37
Forgive my ignorance (and a bit off topic i suppose)... but what is the typical budget of a 'top team'? How about small teams?

I ask because I'm wondering if cost if the number 1 limiting factor as to which there are only a few teams and fewer competitive teams. Also, do WRC cars still need to be homologated? I'm not familiar with any 4wd Citroens, Suzukis, Fords and Peugeots, only Subaru's and Mitsubishis.

On topic, although I'm not a hardcore fan of rallying, there must be something about Loeb to enable him to achieve what he has achieved. And over the years, he had have decent competition, but still came out on top. It's impossible to compare drivers across all eras, but If you were to pick the top driver on each era, Loeb would surely be on that list, IMO.

Do Citroen have number 1 and 2 drivers or Sordo just isn't talented enough?


Budget we don't know, must be similar to sports car racing budgets of Audi & Peugout, around $10-30 million.

Yes, they must be homolgated, the cars are based on any four-wheeled sedan, hatch or wagon with front placed engine, of front-wheel, rear-wheel or all-wheel-drive. The bodykit, roll cage, suspension, transmission, all-paw drive-train, race engine (based on the engine from any vehicle in the car maker's range?) must be seperately homologated for use.

Why should Manufacters enter a class where:

- television coverage is only on obscure cable channels
- no chance of winning against Citroen, unless great difficulty, Ford have a smaller budget but a highly reliable and optimised car over many years, but struggle to stay close

Of course it may be made cheaper by Super 2000 (can Subaru may a car with required engine lay-out !!?? :o poor form by FIA) but Citroen and Ford can modify their highly strung and optimised WRCs to make Super 2000 cars which should be MUCH faster than the humble customer cars of Fiat and Pug which are out and about at the moment.

Look at Ducati+Stoner, multiply by 4 years that could be the only reason for Loeb winning (freakish suitedness to vehicle and that only, so they can just push all day and go faster instead of crashing) or Loeb may actually be really good? I think for example Alonso was the former only (freakish suitedness to Renault) not any particular all-time great talent. Loeb may or may not be talented, or maybe just freakish (flukish) suited to Citroen racer like Stoner to Ducati. Anyhow, does it matter which it is?

#47 Atreiu

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 13:31

I don't think there is a single top motorsport series which has had accidental and undeserving pilots become multi-chapions. A 4 times champion then... it just doesn't happen.

It's useless to speculate wether Loeb is the greatest or not, but don't you guys think he has done exactly what other great champions from the past would have in the same conditiions? Stomp the field ruthlessly.

#48 Panch

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 15:08

Originally posted by Panch
Henri Toivonen :up:

In Finland there was a couple months ago a vote for the Greatest Finnish Rally Hero . The results was:


1. Tommi Mäkinen WDC -96,-97,-98,-99
2. Juha Kankkunen -86,-87,-91,-93
3. Marcus Grönholm -00,-02
4. Henri Toivonen -
5. Markku Alén -78
6. Hannu Mikkola -83
7. Ari Vatanen -81
8. Timo Mäkinen
9. Timo Salonen -85
10. Simo Lampinen -



Fixed ;)

#49 Panch

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 15:17

Legendary video, Ari Vatanen, Climb Dance



:cool:

#50 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 00:51

H-pattern transmission, hard to believe the latest impreza wrc07 is much faster than this old car, which actually seems much more dramatic.

http://uk.youtube.co...r389UPvkZk&NR=1

And here is the new WRC08

http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=zoc9-dD3XkE