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Is Sebastian Loeb the greatest rally driver ever?


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#51 juu-joa

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 05:32

Check this out

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PwvIRuCLbyg

At 1.42 fast hands. Co-driver seems a bit shaken :lol:

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#52 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 08:39

"oh god" :clap:
great video, thanks !

#53 Group B

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 09:44

When men were men, and cars were cars :)

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#54 GeoffR

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 11:12

When men were men, and cars were cars



Group B was awesome. :up:

So many great cars & drivers. Lots of footage of Henri Toivonen in those clips. :cry:

#55 Fortymark

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 14:00

This one is a classic:



Marcus G :lol:

#56 Cinquecento

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 14:03

Solberg 2004

That's the fastest bit of WRC rallying ever. Solberg breaking the FIA speed limit in Rally Finland 2004, consequently causing the stage to be split in half and equipped with a couple of chicanes. You can find the first part of that video easy enough. The young guns aren't chickens either. :up:

#57 MichaelJP

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 14:33

Originally posted by juu-joa
Check this out
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=PwvIRuCLbyg
At 1.42 fast hands. Co-driver seems a bit shaken :lol:


Thanks for that, Vatanen was one of the very best:)

Not WRC but it reminded me of one of my all time favourite videos:

Climb Dance

#58 Panch

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 14:44

Originally posted by Cinquecento
Solberg 2004

That's the fastest bit of WRC rallying ever. Solberg breaking the FIA speed limit in Rally Finland 2004, consequently causing the stage to be split in half and equipped with a couple of chicanes. You can find the first part of that video easy enough. The young guns aren't chickens either. :up:


Ouninpohja, most legendary an dangerous superstage in the world :up:



Some guys jumps over 50 meter in that point!

#59 AlexS

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 15:46

My preference is here: Stratos. Those were the good times not when nannies like Sainz started to turn rally into a weekend job.



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#60 Atreiu

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 15:55

Solberg is a great pilot too.
I have never seen anyone else so enthusiastic about racing and the joy of winning. Back when he used to win rallies, he celebrated each one like it was his first and last win.

#61 AFCA

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 22:56

This is INSANE !!!!!

http://mediacenter.g...ienza=REDAZIONE

#62 F1Obsession

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Posted 30 January 2008 - 23:23

Originally posted by Panch


Ouninpohja, most legendary an dangerous superstage in the world :up:



Some guys jumps over 50 meter in that point!


Pretty good
But this is something else


Another angle which gives you more impression of speed and distance covered


Here's another Subaru nearly wiping out.


#63 Panch

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 17:42

Nice!

Markko Märtin has a record in Ouninpohja, 57 meters :cool:

Here is Gianluigi Galli, with his 55 meter!

Posted Image

Juha kankkunen jumped in another superstage 64 meters but they haven´t drive that ss in a many years..

#64 Spunout

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 17:59

Originally posted by F1Obsession


Here's another Subaru nearly wiping out.


The trick is NOT to lift off the throttle ;)

#65 juu-joa

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 18:27

Originally posted by F1Obsession


Pretty good
But this is something else


Another angle which gives you more impression of speed and distance covered


Here's another Subaru nearly wiping out.

But, Ouninpohja is on gravel and there are huge trees all around you ;)

#66 noikeee

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 19:06

Originally posted by Panch


Ouninpohja, most legendary an dangerous superstage in the world :up:



Some guys jumps over 50 meter in that point!


The jump by the Ford at around the 42 seconds mark is unbelievable. :eek:

#67 DaleCooper

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 21:44

Originally posted by HSJ
For me rallying is perhaps at an all-time low. The talent just isn't there at the moment, neither in the drivers nor the teams. There are just two competitive teams, when there used to be many more in the past. It all changed with Peugeot and then Citroen taking the financial competition to a level that the others couldn't follow. Incidentally that then lead to Peugeot withdrawing... Driver-wise Loeb is okay, probably no better than Grönholm though (just in different teams and cars), and Grönholm wasn't an all time great, just above average really. What's left after Marcus is even worse now, Loeb simply has no competition due to a talent vacuum. His results are even better due to there being little competition in terms of teams. Marcus too started to rack up a lot of wins simply due to these cirumstances, even though he was nowhere near such drivers as Mäkinen and Kankkunen of the past.

Is Loeb the greatest? No, not even close. He's above average, but probably not even one of the all-time greats really. People who are hung up on stats will think otherwise, of course. You should take note of Loeb's start in WRC and compare him to nobodies in the other Citroen cars who could still utterly dominate rallies against actually quite talented drivers in much lesser cars. That and that Loeb has not had a decent teammate yet. Tells you everything you need to know.



There is not much in your post to agree with, and you even contradict yourself. I agree there are not enough ultra competitive teams, so it makes it rather lonely at the top at times. But Loeb is an amazing driver, a great talent, and so was Gronholm.

But you see I know how simple mindedness in a fan works. If you were to give credit to Gronholm, then Loeb would have to be one of the greatest. But that just would not do, since you would then have to put him on a level with, surprise surprise, Finnish drivers from a different era. And since they can't be compared directly, you just write off an entire generation of drivers as having little talent. There, your Finnish heroes are preserved! Now please go stick your head back in the sand. Maybe the next generation will have a Finnish driver with no equal so that you will once again be able to proclaim that talent has returned to the sport. You know, sort of like when Kimi ushered in a new super generation of drivers in F1! Remember that one boy? :lol: :lol:

Cooper

#68 DaleCooper

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 21:50

Originally posted by AlexS
My preference is here: Stratos. Those were the good times not when nannies like Sainz started to turn rally into a weekend job.


Great footage! The Stratos is my all time favourite rally car, even though I was just a young kid then. What a beauty!

Cooper

#69 RS2000

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 14:20

These sort of comparisons are only valid if made by someone closely involved throughout the period under discussion - and no one here is, I feel fairly sure, certainly no one below the age of about 70. Otherwise the voting is too influenced by the age group that is in the majority at the time.
Alternatively, you need to look to which driver was considered at the time by his peers to stand out above all others, was the one they always feared and was the one they were resigned to coming second to in equal cars, so long as his car lasted. In my time of being invloved in rallying, there is only one name that qualifies: Timo Makinen in the mid 60s. Perhaps Henri Toivonen would have achieved the same status - he was certainly a "difficult" individual in the same mould as TM - but he had not at the time he died.

#70 daSilvium

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 15:15

My vote for one of the greatest ever is : Walter Röhrl.

- Legendary driver.

#71 RS2000

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 22:20

Originally posted by daSilvium
My vote for one of the greatest ever is : Walter Röhrl.
- Legendary driver.


Legendary for never coming to terms with unpractised events like the RAC as it then was. All in his mind, but it rules him out from overall greatest in my judgement.

#72 Nitropower

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 01:06

he faces the same scenario as schumacher in 2000-2001-2002-2003-2004.
He is quite good. He has the best machinery. And he faces weak opposition.

#73 Group B

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 10:01

Originally posted by Nitropower
he faces the same scenario as schumacher in 2000-2001-2002-2003-2004.
He is quite good. He has the best machinery. And he faces weak opposition.

:lol: :rolleyes:
Trolltastic. Especially 2000; An on-form MH in a car at least as good as MS'.

#74 former champ

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 08:02

Originally posted by Group B

:lol: :rolleyes:
Trolltastic. Especially 2000; An on-form MH in a car at least as good as MS'.


I'd go a step further, at the very least.

Loeb is clearly one of the greats although my personal favourite will always be Colin McRae. :up:

#75 ezequiel

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 13:13

Originally posted by HSJ
For me rallying is perhaps at an all-time low. The talent just isn't there at the moment, neither in the drivers nor the teams. There are just two competitive teams, when there used to be many more in the past. It all changed with Peugeot and then Citroen taking the financial competition to a level that the others couldn't follow. Incidentally that then lead to Peugeot withdrawing... Driver-wise Loeb is okay, probably no better than Grönholm though (just in different teams and cars), and Grönholm wasn't an all time great, just above average really. What's left after Marcus is even worse now, Loeb simply has no competition due to a talent vacuum. His results are even better due to there being little competition in terms of teams. Marcus too started to rack up a lot of wins simply due to these cirumstances, even though he was nowhere near such drivers as Mäkinen and Kankkunen of the past.

Is Loeb the greatest? No, not even close. He's above average, but probably not even one of the all-time greats really. People who are hung up on stats will think otherwise, of course. You should take note of Loeb's start in WRC and compare him to nobodies in the other Citroen cars who could still utterly dominate rallies against actually quite talented drivers in much lesser cars. That and that Loeb has not had a decent teammate yet. Tells you everything you need to know.


There used to be many more compètitive teams in the past?... mmmmm... there have always been no more than two or three winner teams per season in the past (more or less like F1 and most high-level motor racing series)... Loeb is surely one of the best drivers ever (if he is or not the best is of no importance at all) but I don't think his dominance is due exclusively to lack of talent in the competition... rally is different than circuit-motorracing, you need easily three full seasons to start showing the best of you. With the proper car and time, I can see Latvala, Atkinson or Galli fighting for the title, but by now, they haven't had the continuity and/or the competitive car to threaten such an experienced talent like Loeb. I hope the new Subaru is good enough to bring Solberg (...and Atkinson too...) to the top fight.

#76 J

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 13:31

Originally posted by RS2000


Legendary for never coming to terms with unpractised events like the RAC as it then was. All in his mind, but it rules him out from overall greatest in my judgement.


I´ll second that. He never came Finland either..

-J

#77 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:40



So the Greatest rally driver of all time is one who forgets to break for chicane eh? You decide!  ;) :)

#78 hmm

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:42

Well, of course there are mistakes in every rally drivers career, probably even embarrassing ones..


This reminds me of an story I heard quoted to Ari Vatanen:

A young rally driver talks with Vatanen:
Vatanen: When did you last time crash?
Young driver: I haven't crashed once!
Vatanen: So how do you know your limit!


And, going completely off-topic from Loeb, another story quoted to Markku Alen:

After a spectator stage Alen is interviewed:

- The crowed really seemed to like your jump, you drove to the jump much faster than anyone else and jumped lot longer. Was that to show off?
- No, in the previous corner there was so much mud thrown to the windshield that I didn't see the whole jump!

(So, what does a rally driver do when he doesn't see anything, of course steps on it..)


The stories are completely from my memory about articles read years ago, so they might be completely wrong, but great stories still..


And, some more recent, showing the determination of the co-drivers as well (Timo Rautiainen in this case).



Rautiainen hurts his back and can't talk. Grönholm is of course very worried and asks should they stop but Rautiainen manages to insist that they should continue. Of course the car is continuing with high speed all the time as can be seen from the background. The comments claim that they made the 2nd best time on this stage.. (It was in Finland, so this probably helped Grönholm driving without notes).

#79 Atreiu

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:54

How did he end in such pain?

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#80 ForMules

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 16:07

hahaha Citroen get the bigest budget its because Loeb is winning!

and the finish fans are whining so..

Citroen isn't the world champ, and ferrari will win every years to come, hey they have the bigest budget in F1

poor logic, poor ppl

Loeb makes lots of national pride mongers angry, he upset them, its good

Shumacher is the greatest ever F1 pilot, and not because ferrari got the best budget in F1...

Alonso is another one that won with a middle class budget

points, results, and classifications are there to show who's the best, we don't care about whinies biased opinion

#81 selespeed

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 16:25

Originally posted by V8 Fireworks


So the Greatest rally driver of all time is one who forgets to break for chicane eh? You decide!  ;) :)



kit car 2000...just beautifull! :love:

#82 Makarias

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 18:33

Then of course there is the entertainment factor, and I don't see Loeb beating Grönholm there in a long long time:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

#83 Oho

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 21:05

Originally posted by Atreiu
How did he end in such pain?


Marcus missed a jump at Ouninpohja landing very heavily, Timo Rautiainen was not prepared and the four wheel slam crushed his spine.

#84 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 06:59

Originally posted by Oho


Marcus missed a jump at Ouninpohja landing very heavily, Timo Rautiainen was not prepared and the four wheel slam crushed his spine.


You sure? I always thought it was something that came through the bottom of the car impaling the poor guy.

#85 mikabest

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 08:56

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever

You sure? I always thought it was something that came through the bottom of the car impaling the poor guy.


That was another incident... "Stone up his ass" as Grönholm so delicately explained it to the reporter asking him what happened :lol:
A nice youtube video of that can be found easily...I recommend using that quote when you search it :rotfl:

yours,
mikabest

#86 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 09:04

Thanks :up:

brain fade with age.

#87 Panch

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 19:37

Originally posted by hmm



And, some more recent, showing the determination of the co-drivers as well (Timo Rautiainen in this case).



Rautiainen hurts his back and can't talk. Grönholm is of course very worried and asks should they stop but Rautiainen manages to insist that they should continue. Of course the car is continuing with high speed all the time as can be seen from the background. The comments claim that they made the 2nd best time on this stage.. (It was in Finland, so this probably helped Grönholm driving without notes).


Ouch! :eek:

#88 FordFan

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 03:55

The fact the Ford have won the constructors two years running, and look to be well on the way to a third - while Loeb has won the title twice, and well on the way to a third - says volumes about the quality of the driver.

#89 tormave

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Posted 10 February 2008 - 04:06

I think that's more due to Citroens obsession for hiring tarmac specialists for the #2 car.

#90 ForMules

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 01:28

exept that Citroen will win both this year

Ford is a mockery for years! they won on the rules by the FIA about pilots, Sordo isn't that quality driver...

#91 JonC

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 10:30

Originally posted by Oho


Marcus missed a jump at Ouninpohja landing very heavily, Timo Rautiainen was not prepared and the four wheel slam crushed his spine.


On that particular rally Loeb also landed heavily after the very same jump and his co-driver Daniel Elena was also badly winded and unable to speak.

#92 FordFan

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 13:26

exept that Citroen will win both this year



Maybe, of course. But given that they are currently 4th, and even you admit that Sordo isn't a quality driver on all surfaces, that sounds like a tall order.