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F1 fanaticism reaching new (soccer-like) heights


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#701 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 09:52

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Since when have I made things up? You are essentially saying I am lying! I'd like an apology please. Or at least, a properly resourced reply.

Jonathon Noble's article was a Q&A with Alonso. Q&A with Ferdinand Alonso The questions asked were:

Please read what he said, it seems quite clear he has decided the simplest way to avoid stirring up controversy is just not to talk about Hamilton. I think he's right too - its what I'd do. If once considers how much the media change things, after all that has gone on, I do not blame him for taking this stance.

He doesn't organise tracks - its up to the authorities to run their businesses properly.

This interview is dated Jan 31st. That's before the events of the weekend. You said;

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Should Alonso now condemn the track officials? And the Spanish law? Give me a break - he's concentrating on his job, and the PR stuff is difficult enough as last year showed, without him trying to become a savvy political manipulator. He's a racing car driver, and he's plainly said he doesn't want to comment.

And I take issue with this because you are trying to create a link between the interview answers and the events of the weekend. He hasn't said he won't comment on the track officials or Spanish Law or racism because it was impossible for him to have known about them without a handy Tardis. But the questions will inevitably come and we will know what his A to that Q will be.

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#702 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 10:36

Originally posted by Buttoneer

But the questions will inevitably come and we will know what his A to that Q will be.


What will it be?

#703 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 10:46

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1


What will it be?

No idea. I'm not a mind reader.

#704 i.am.cloned

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 10:46

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Don't blame the racing drivers - go look at the media sales that benefit from sensationalist reporting.

Alonso will not talk about Hamilton, because he is always misquoted, which is what Alonso has specifically said.

Agree about press pressure for sensational quotes, but why can't Hamilton follow Alonso's example and just don't say anything at all?

About rasism issue I have a feeling that this is rather a rasist card being played by sensationlist then a real issue. Becase in my opinion if there is nothing wrong with being black so there can't be anything wrong with being acknowleged as black, called black etc. All those negative connotation are for rasist minds, not for normal people who do see that people differ from each other but do not hate the world and everybody for that.

Btw color skin definitely means something special for Hamilton since in his QA sometimes ago he named only black people as his favorites (actor, singer, politic etc.) Was it an accident or he thinks that whites are not as good at arts and sports and politics as blacks? How come this question above seems stupid and inapptopriate but coloring black to portret black family is a crime that should be punished?

Rage is a bad adviser, and antirasist blind blame game is not an answer to a rasist blind blame game. Who needs another holy war? We should try to be calm and impartial in our assesments. World really has changed and for good. Time to enjoy it.

#705 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 10:58

Originally posted by Buttoneer

No idea. I'm not a mind reader.


So when you wrote: "But the questions will inevitably come and we will know what his A to that Q will be." you didn't include yourself in "We" did you?

#706 Lifew12

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:00

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1


So when you wrote: "But the questions will inevitably come and we will know what his A to that Q will be." you didn't include yourself in "We" did you?


You need to read it again - 'we will' does not mean ' we already do', does it?

#707 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:03

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1


So when you wrote: "But the questions will inevitably come and we will know what his A to that Q will be." you didn't include yourself in "We" did you?

Yes I did. When the questions come he will have to answer them. We will then know what his answer is. All of us, including me. I fail to understand what is so controversial about this.

#708 djellison

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:06

Originally posted by bl-f1
Lewis has continued to feed the press in recent days with derogatory remarks against Fernando Alonso,


Such as? Direct quotes of this 'bile' please.

Doug

#709 Burai

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:10

Originally posted by i.am.cloned
Btw color skin definitely means something special for Hamilton since in his QA sometimes ago he named only black people as his favorites (actor, singer, politic etc.) Was it an accident or he thinks that whites are not as good at arts and sports and politics as blacks? How come this question above seems stupid and inapptopriate but coloring black to portret black family is a crime that should be punished?


You think that appreciating the work of black artists is as offensive as dressing up in blackface and throwing bananas at passing cars?

I'm sorry, but are you genuinely retarded?

#710 scheivlak

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:14

Originally posted by i.am.cloned


Btw color skin definitely means something special for Hamilton since in his QA sometimes ago he named only black people as his favorites (actor, singer, politic etc.) Was it an accident or he thinks that whites are not as good at arts and sports and politics as blacks? How come this question above seems stupid and inapptopriate but coloring black to portret black family is a crime that should be punished?

So I'm a white supremacist if I'm, say, a fan of Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan :drunk:

Didn't know that Senna was black BTW.

#711 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:28

Well, if nothing else, this tread has at least arrived at one positive conclusion. Namely, that this is all a storm in a tea cup and that the free (free to say what the hell they like) press are the real diggers in the woodpile. :lol: :up:

Could someone please help me here.

I´m white, and someone calls me a monkey, I don´t take offense. Should I? Is he saying I´m a sub speceis? Maybe. What the hell do I care.
I´m black, someone calls me a monkey. Like the white guy, why should I be offended? Why is it automatically seen as a racist insult? Is it perhaps because in the eyes of those trying to defend me, I am a sub species and in their secret opinion I really am only one step up from a monkey? Who then are the real racists?
Makes you wonder, doesn´t it?

#712 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:30

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Yes I did. When the questions come he will have to answer them. We will then know what his answer is. All of us, including me. I fail to understand what is so controversial about this.

So what does it matter then? If he gets a question he will answer it .... what's the problem?

#713 angst

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:38

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Well, if nothing else, this tread has at least arrived at one positive conclusion. Namely, that this is all a storm in a tea cup and that the free (free to say what the hell they like) press are the real diggers in the woodpile. :lol: :up:

Could someone please help me here.

I´m white, and someone calls me a monkey, I don´t take offense. Should I? Is he saying I´m a sub speceis? Maybe. What the hell do I care.
I´m black, someone calls me a monkey. Like the white guy, why should I be offended? Why is it automatically seen as a racist insult? Is it perhaps because in the eyes of those trying to defend me, I am a sub species and in their secret opinion I really am only one step up from a monkey? Who then are the real racists?
Makes you wonder, doesn´t it?


Very disingenuous argument to put forward. It's not just about someone accusing you of being a sub-species. Being white, of course you wouldn't take offence, the insult has no background. Now you try and turn it around so that those who find this offensive (and, by the way, I find ALL racism offensive, including the atrocious treatment of white farmers by Mugabe and his crew of thugs, and the Nation of Islam who claim that white people were created by a mad scientist (no, really.....)) are secretly racists. What a load of tosh. How would you feel if you were told "F*** off whiteboy, you're not welcome here" and were spat at? Would you question the racial element of it? (This, by the way, has happened to me)

Racism should not be tolerated, anywhere. In terms of the behaviour we have seen here, it is simple thuggery and should be treated with that in mind. It is quite right that no argument, no matter how despicable we might find it, should be censored, should not be allowed to be aired. The greatest counter to an argument is a better counter-argument. But this is not an argument put forward, it is thuggery, plain and simple.

#714 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:45

The way I see it, certain Spanish fans have an axe to grind with Lewis Hamilton. Because he's Lewis Hamilton, not because he's black. They just use the blackness as the vehicle to carry the insults, like at the England(?) football game a few years back.

If it was Alonso vs Sato I can predict the insults, and if it was Alonso vs..well...me, I'd expect redneck comments.

That doesn't excuse it or make it better, but it's hardly the KKK sitting in the grand stand.

#715 Kpy

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:46

Originally posted by angst


Very disingenuous argument to put forward. It's not just about someone accusing you of being a sub-species. Being white, of course you wouldn't take offence, the insult has no background. Now you try and turn it around so that those who find this offensive (and, by the way, I find ALL racism offensive, including the atrocious treatment of white farmers by Mugabe and his crew of thugs, and the Nation of Islam who claim that white people were created by a mad scientist (no, really.....)) are secretly racists. What a load of tosh. How would you feel if you were told "F*** off whiteboy, you're not welcome here" and were spat at? Would you question the racial element of it? (This, by the way, has happened to me)

Racism should not be tolerated, anywhere. In terms of the behaviour we have seen here, it is simple thuggery and should be treated with that in mind. It is quite right that no argument, no matter how despicable we might find it, should be censored, should not be allowed to be aired. The greatest counter to an argument is a better counter-argument. But this is not an argument put forward, it is thuggery, plain and simple.


Great post. Nicely put :up:

#716 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:52

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The way I see it, certain Spanish fans have an axe to grind with Lewis Hamilton. Because he's Lewis Hamilton, not because he's black. They just use the blackness as the vehicle to carry the insults, like at the England(?) football game a few years back.

If it was Alonso vs Sato I can predict the insults, and if it was Alonso vs..well...me, I'd expect redneck comments.

That doesn't excuse it or make it better, but it's hardly the KKK sitting in the grand stand.


Thanks Ross, for bringing a bit of perspective to this whole thing. :up:

Angst, that´s the, is a square really only a deformed circle, arguement. Doesn´t make any sense.

#717 Kpy

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:53

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Well, if nothing else, this tread has at least arrived at one positive conclusion. Namely, that this is all a storm in a tea cup and that the free (free to say what the hell they like) press are the real diggers in the woodpile. :lol: :up:

Could someone please help me here.

I´m white, and someone calls me a monkey, I don´t take offense. Should I? Is he saying I´m a sub speceis? Maybe. What the hell do I care.
I´m black, someone calls me a monkey. Like the white guy, why should I be offended? Why is it automatically seen as a racist insult? Is it perhaps because in the eyes of those trying to defend me, I am a sub species and in their secret opinion I really am only one step up from a monkey? Who then are the real racists?
Makes you wonder, doesn´t it?


It's not about being called a monkey. It's about being called a black arsehole or a ****ing black or a black shit - note the recurring word.

#718 i.am.cloned

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:56

Originally posted by angst


Very disingenuous argument to put forward. It's not just about someone accusing you of being a sub-species. Being white, of course you wouldn't take offence, the insult has no background.

As they say there is some Bible quotation to support any cause. Mankind has a long and colorfull history so basically there is historical and cultural background to take offences from nearly everything that can be said or done. I just don't see why we should bother about bad things from our background that much instead of sticking with good things from our present that we'd like to carry on to our future. Everybody here says that rasism is a bad thing and that being black or yellow or white doesn't do you any damage as a person. If we all really share this then there is no hidded offences in calling black someone who is black just the same as there is nothing in calling tall someone who is tall etc. It's merely a constatation of fact.

#719 RSNS

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:57

I have not read all the posts since my last reply. But consider this.

Let Hamilton be white and have a very long nose.
Let a group of hooligans present themselves with t-shirts printed Hamilton's Familly, all wearing masks with very big noses.

Would you have said: DIRTY RACISTS!!! ?

I'M NOT DEFENDING RACISM. Read my previous posts.

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#720 i.am.cloned

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:00

Originally posted by Kpy


It's not about being called a monkey. It's about being called a black arsehole or a ****ing black or a black shit - note the recurring word.

Well... Some people call B Spears a white trash of white ****. Are they racists or just BS personal haters?

#721 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:02

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1

So what does it matter then? If he gets a question he will answer it .... what's the problem?

I didn't say there was a problem. I said that Alonso will be forced to voice an opinion because he will be asked a direct question as soon as a journalist gets close. That's it.

Please just make your point and move on because it seems to me the only 'problem' here is that you didn't properly read what I wrote.

#722 undersquare

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:07

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The way I see it, certain Spanish fans have an axe to grind with Lewis Hamilton. Because he's Lewis Hamilton, not because he's black. They just use the blackness as the vehicle to carry the insults, like at the England(?) football game a few years back.

If it was Alonso vs Sato I can predict the insults, and if it was Alonso vs..well...me, I'd expect redneck comments.

That doesn't excuse it or make it better, but it's hardly the KKK sitting in the grand stand.


It's one thing to protest about someone's behaviour, and something else to denigrate the fundamental person they are, that they can't change.

This kind of thing has to be stopped strongy and immediately, otherwise it will spread. The circuit AFAIK did nothing for a long time, until McLaren asked, and now is joining in with the condemnation, so that much has been achieved. Without the objections, the taunting would still be going on, and more widely probably.

Also this overt racism encourages a lesser but more widespread form of racism, that I think has happened to Hammy, that in some quarters his mistakes and weaknesses are judged more harshly than they are for white drivers.

An issue of lesser entitlement.

#723 postajegenye

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:08

Originally posted by RSNS
I have not read all the posts since my last reply. But consider this.

Let Hamilton be white and have a very long nose.
Let a group of hooligans present themselves with t-shirts printed Hamilton's Familly, all wearing masks with very big noses.

Would you have said: DIRTY RACISTS!!! ?

I'M NOT DEFENDING RACISM. Read my previous posts.


I think your opinion is quite similar to mine.
I think these people aren't racist. They just hate Hamilton and need something insulting to say about him. They would insult him and throw things at him even if he was white. They would just find an other thing in him. If Alonso would have been clearly better than LH last season, then I'm sure they (the majority of them) wouldn't say a bad thing about Hamilton's skin colour.
That said, their behaviour is pathetic and disgusting and they should have no place at an F1 track.

#724 miguevaio

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:08

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
The way I see it, certain Spanish fans have an axe to grind with Lewis Hamilton. Because he's Lewis Hamilton, not because he's black. They just use the blackness as the vehicle to carry the insults, like at the England(?) football game a few years back.

If it was Alonso vs Sato I can predict the insults, and if it was Alonso vs..well...me, I'd expect redneck comments.

That doesn't excuse it or make it better, but it's hardly the KKK sitting in the grand stand.


:up:

#725 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:09

Originally posted by Kpy


It's not about being called a monkey. It's about being called a black arsehole or a ****ing black or a black shit - note the recurring word.


With all due respect, were you there? Did you actually hear the insults? Were they said in English? If not, do you speak Spanish? Who actually did the translations? Do you see the recurring question marks?
You see, I have a problem with accepting the word of someone (not you, but rather your source, the press) I suspect is trying to stir the pot. We all know they have to sell their shit, and this suits them perfectly. A pic of three people standing in the crowd with painted faces means nothing as far as I´m concerned. They could have been paid by someone from the press for all I know. It proves nothing and means even less.
One thing my advanced years have taught me, is not to believe everything I see. :)

#726 Welsh

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:12

Folks need to build a bridge and get over this - Lewis Hamilton certainly has.

#727 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:25

Originally posted by Welsh
Folks need to build a bridge and get over this - Lewis Hamilton certainly has.


What a great post that would be to end this thread. :up:

#728 mel

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 12:33

Dear All,

This has been a long thread in a short time, and it has become more about each others' opinions on the nature of racism rather than the Hamilton story. I am going to lock this now so that if there is a development in the news story, a new thread can be started.

My thanks to you all who argued without personal attacks.

-mel BB admin