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F1 fanaticism reaching new (soccer-like) heights


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#101 Ghostrider

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:14

Spectators should be expected to show a certain degree of class and maturity I think.

Obviously this is something these people miss and I wouldn't mind someone telling them to leave the premises.

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#102 Talisman

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:17

Originally posted by Burai
The only answer to the problem if it gets out of hand are severe FIA sanctions. From banning individual supporters from FIA-sanctioned events worldwide, fines for the circuit owners, removing Spain from the calendar and at the most extreme banning Spanish participants from F1 events.

That's what they do in football. Any sign of racial trouble or violence and EUFA start handing out fines and bans. It doesn't matter whether it's the majority or minority, you cannot sit by and let this sort of thing happen.

The price of admission does not give supporters carte blanche to throw items at the participants, nor does it give them the right to racially abuse them. That picture of the supporters in blackface is absolutely sickening.

And anyone who can't see the difference between

a) Hamilton calling backmarkers "monkeys" for acting stupid
b) Fans calling Hamilton a "monkey" for being black

really, really needs to a take a long hard look at themselves.


I agree with you but IIRC the FIA has a way out over this. They can simply turn round and claim that they don't administer testing sessions and therefore aren't responsible.

I hope against hope that the FIA clamp down on this as hard as you suggest, there really is no place for this kind of behaviour whatsoever in any field. However my faith in the FIA isn't very high at the moment.

As for people changing attitudes to Alonso over this kind of stuff, I'm not sure I understand their viewpoint unless he has arranged for these 'fans' to behave in this way himself which I doubt somehow.

#103 Burai

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:22

Originally posted by PdlR


Agreed. My dislike for Alonso grows higher because of this kind of things, but let's not sing the old "this-has-never-happended-before" song, because the old times, as it always shows, weren't better. Alain Prost had to be escorted by the brazilian police during his duels with Senna at Interlagos, just to mention another older case.


Nobody is singing that song at all.

Kenaltgr and others are insinuating that Alonso's fans should be absolved from any blame because it's happened before in the past. Absolute bullshit. This sort of behaviour is completely abhorrent and has no place in civilised society in this day and age, regardless of who's doing it and who they are doing it to.

The big difference between the German death threats and the Spanish abuse is that the former happened in 1994 and the latter is happening right now. We can't do anything about 1994, but we certainly can do something about what's happening in the present. The FIA need to take a hard line on this sort of behaviour and fast.

#104 Burai

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:23

Originally posted by Talisman


I agree with you but IIRC the FIA has a way out over this. They can simply turn round and claim that they don't administer testing sessions and therefore aren't responsible.


Absolutely. I'm more thinking about what happens when we get to the Spanish GP weekend rather than private testing.

#105 Chiara

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:28

Originally posted by Burai


Absolutely. I'm more thinking about what happens when we get to the Spanish GP weekend rather than private testing.


I would have thought the responsibility for ensuring good behaviour at any particular circuit falls to the local law enforcement agencies, stewards and the circuit itself. If they can see there is a problem they should be calling the police in to keep an eye on things, and eject/arrest trouble makers if necessary.

#106 Mauseri

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:30

One word: monkeys!

#107 gio66

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:31

Originally posted by Enkei
Snippet of Autosport's article:

"Spanish fans, believing their hero Fernando Alonso was treated unfairly by the team last year, have continually expressed their displeasure with McLaren both at Valencia and Barcelona in preseason testing.

This included shouting of profanity at Alonso's 2007 teammate Lewis Hamilton, hanging unflattering banners, and even throwing junk towards the McLaren cars as they left for the track."


http://www.autosport...ne.php/id/64959

Following incidents at last test sessions in Valencia and Jerez, Spanish fans are now starting to throw junk on the track and grandstands end up being closed. The article even mentions security personnel being hired to ensure thing not to get out of hand.

:down:


Where is the scoop?

Do you forget the Piquet puppet hang at Tosa in the early 80's?

Do you forget the "**** Patrese" People at Acque Minerali '83?

Do you forget the stones launched to Prost and Piquet from the Serraglio Bridge on 1983 Monza's tests?

Where is the news?

#108 airwise

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:35

The news for me is the appalling racism on display in Spain. That MUST be stamped out.

#109 Juan Kerr

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:38

There's an easy answer to all this alone the same lines as the English football hooligans, take away the Spanish GP. Let's see how diversity friendly Bernie Eccelstone is then shall we ?

#110 Gecko

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:38

Originally posted by gio66


Where is the scoop?

Do you forget the Piquet puppet hang at Tosa in the early 80's?

Do you forget the "**** Patrese" People at Acque Minerali '83?

Do you forget the stones launched to Prost and Piquet from the Serraglio Bridge on 1983 Monza's tests?

Where is the news?


You can't read, can you? As others have pointed out early on, bad behaviour by one group of people does not excuse the same from another one. I am not familiar with the incidents mentioned, but if true, they were just as despicable as the current ones.

#111 MichaelPM

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:47

Originally posted by Gecko


You can't read, can you? As others have pointed out early on, bad behaviour by one group of people does not excuse the same from another one. I am not familiar with the incidents mentioned, but if true, they were just as despicable as the current ones.

I believe his response is for those using this as an agenda to try and drum up hate for Spain and Alonso as being the cause of some never seen before hooliganism in F1.

The kind of people who react in complete hysteria about mild mannered banners then have no extra level of hate for something far more serious as objects thrown on the track or in the pitlane.

#112 Talisman

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:51

Originally posted by gio66
Where is the scoop?

Do you forget the Piquet puppet hang at Tosa in the early 80's?

Do you forget the "**** Patrese" People at Acque Minerali '83?

Do you forget the stones launched to Prost and Piquet from the Serraglio Bridge on 1983 Monza's tests?

Where is the news?


Which of those incidents was racist in nature?

#113 gio66

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:55

Originally posted by Gecko


You can't read, can you? As others have pointed out early on, bad behaviour by one group of people does not excuse the same from another one. I am not familiar with the incidents mentioned, but if true, they were just as despicable as the current ones.


It's the same! There's no news!

Indeed, throwing stones against cars at full speed is very worst than some idiot who's explaining his hate (poor idiot). IMHO.

#114 gio66

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:57

Originally posted by Talisman


Which of those incidents was racist in nature?


All. IMHO, the Ferrari's hooligans are a race ( in Italy).

Guaranteed!

#115 mursuka80

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:58

I wonder what happens if lewis wins in barcelona :( take away the spanish gp and give it to finland :clap:

#116 Jacquesback

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:58

Originally posted by miguevaio


:lol: as I am sure than this one is not representative of the British....

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

P.S.: I won't put a title to the link in contradiction with my sentence....;)


I'm not English. ;)
But the spanish are racists.

#117 gio66

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 15:59

Originally posted by MichaelPM

I believe his response is for those using this as an agenda to try and drum up hate for Spain and Alonso as being the cause of some never seen before hooliganism in F1.

The kind of people who react in complete hysteria about mild mannered banners then have no extra level of hate for something far more serious as objects thrown on the track or in the pitlane.


You're right!

#118 David M. Kane

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:06

It's even made ESPN's webpage here as racist behavior...not good, not good at all.

#119 Jacquesback

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:07

Originally posted by Burai
The only answer to the problem if it gets out of hand are severe FIA sanctions. From banning individual supporters from FIA-sanctioned events worldwide, fines for the circuit owners, removing Spain from the calendar and at the most extreme banning Spanish participants from F1 events.


Do you really expect Max, son of Oswald, will do anything about it. :rotfl:

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#120 santori

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:07

Originally posted by Burai


Nobody is singing that song at all.


The title of the thread?

#121 Jacquesback

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:10

Originally posted by hobbes


all mediterrenean countries are similar to that;) Lazio fans burned down buildings when their team had a black player or something. In Greece probably you would be shocked by the amount of insults and swear words you would hear in a football match. In the UK you watch football matches and all the people are sitting down, or standing which is pretty admirable. In my country where all the stands have huge fences surrounding them, there are people hanging from the fence and maybe only the VIPs are sitting. During the match fans from different teams might insult each other really badly , but when its all over, most of them act as if nothing happened.


So does that make it all ok with you? :rolleyes:

#122 Gecko

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:14

Originally posted by gio66
It's the same! There's no news!

Indeed, throwing stones against cars at full speed is very worst than some idiot who's explaining his hate (poor idiot). IMHO.


That's very perverted logic. "I can't be arrested for burglary, there's people getting away with murder out there". Besides, as has been reported, those same "fans" did throw things onto the track in the recent tests.

#123 Ural

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:20

When Lewis uses monkey word he probably means 'rascal' or 'rogue'. And I find it very amusing :up:!

#124 kismet

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:24

F1 fanaticism? I don't believe people who hurl abuse and/or random objects at complete strangers really even care about the sport - they merely use it as their excuse for behaving in a thoroughly reprehensible fashion.

#125 santori

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:25

I think the appropriate authorities should find the individuals concerned and issue warnings and bannings from tracks. But I'm also very uncomfortable with a few of the posts on this and other boards which seem to me to be little short of bigoted in their criticisms of some Spanish fans and I think that's what some here are also feeling. And that's taken by others as a defense of the behaviour of the idiots at the track, which it isn't. At least not usually. Just as most criticisms aren't anti-Spanish at all, but may be taken as such by people made over-sensitive by those which are.

#126 noikeee

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:42

Originally posted by mursuka80
I wonder what happens if lewis wins in barcelona :( take away the spanish gp and give it to finland :clap:


If there's any chance I'll ever root for Lewis it'll be at Barcelona and Valencia this year. It'll be hilarious if he wins. :lol:

Originally posted by santori
I think the appropriate authorities should find the individuals concerned and issue warnings and bannings from tracks. But I'm also very uncomfortable with a few of the posts on this and other boards which seem to me to be little short of bigoted in their criticisms of some Spanish fans and I think that's what some here are also feeling. And that's taken by others as a defense of the behaviour of the idiots at the track, which it isn't. At least not usually. Just as most criticisms aren't anti-Spanish at all, but may be taken as such by people made over-sensitive by those which are.


It's just the nature of some extremely biased people that frequent this board. Everything is exaggerated or taken too seriously in order to feed their arguments.

#127 djellison

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:43

Originally posted by MichaelPM
http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=33858.


The Barcelona Circuit should be ashamed of themselves for letting this happen, the Spanish F1 fans should be ashamed of having these people among them, Alonso should be ashamed of himself for not publicly denouncing this behavior when it started, at the first test of the year.

And personally, I am ashamed to ever have called myself an F1 fan

Does Spain not have laws along the lines of Incitement to cause hatred? If they do - why are they not being put into force here?

#128 noikeee

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:50

Originally posted by djellison
And personally, I am ashamed to ever have called myself an F1 fan.


Another fine example of an exaggerated reaction.

#129 djellison

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:52

Sorry - it is impossible to exaggerate the level of disgust and moral abhorrence exhibited by these 'people' who have been let into an F1 circuit, allowed to remain in an f1 circuit, and conduct themselves like that whilst surrounded fellow F1 fans.

#130 Nitropower

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:54

Any racist behaviour must be banned in a circuit no matter if it is testing or GP. And that's the organisation duties.
But, at least in the pictures, there's only banners, and I can't read anything especially offensive, and nothing racial. Of course if some people where insulting Hamilton because of his color they should not be allowed to enter any sport event. And the FIA should fine the circuit so they start taking measures against racism. But there's nothing wrong with banners (I repeat, at least the ones I've seen). McLaren built their dislike last year and they cannot expect a warm welcome.

http://www.gazzetta....otori/Formula1/

There you can read:
Fernando Alonso we are with you three times champion.
Hamilton you talk too much, you big mouth.
Ron Dennis and Hamilton will be eternally in debt with Alonso and Pdlr.

Anybody tell me these are racist. These can result stupid, or you may not agree with their message, but not racist. It's not an attempt to excuse racism. It's an attempt to see what it really is, not what some want it to be.
Yes I've seen the people painted in black. It can be considered an offense to Hamilton and his familly because of his color. Or it can be considered as making fun of the Hamiltons being on tv so many times after a number of GPS.
The thing is McLaren didn't feel comfortable and they complained, I totally agree if they complain about racism, or being thrown objects, but they cannot complain of being disliked.

#131 Claudius

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:56

Originally posted by Juan Kerr
There's an easy answer to all this alone the same lines as the English football hooligans, take away the Spanish GP. Let's see how diversity friendly Bernie Eccelstone is then shall we ?


I think you are right.
If the morons continue with this behaviour, and nothing is done to stop that, then just take away both of their Grand Prix.

I guess the hooligans would blame Lewis for that too...

#132 F1Obsession

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:56

Originally posted by J
According to Ilta-Sanomat the Marca reports that Hamilton was being tainted in racist terms any time he was near spanish fans during Barcelona tests.

http://www.iltasanom....asp?id=1483706

-J

That is disgusting.

#133 Claudius

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 16:59

Originally posted by Nitropower
..
Yes I've seen the people painted in black. It can be considered an offense to Hamilton and his familly because of his color. Or it can be considered as making fun of the Hamiltons being on tv so many times after a number of GPS.
The thing is McLaren didn't feel comfortable and they complained, I totally agree if they complain about racism, or being thrown objects, but they cannot complain of being disliked.



So what are you saying, the McLaren complain of being disliked?!!


Some people will defend everything...
:down:

#134 gio66

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:01

Originally posted by Jacquesback


So does that make it all ok with you? :rolleyes:


NO NO NO!!!

Absolutely no!

There's a misunderstanding!

Please, believe me, my comment is absolutely sarcastic!

#135 HSJ

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:06

Originally posted by airwise
Monkey in English is a jovial slang term - I would not expect you to understand that. The throwing of bananas and the making of ape noises at a coloured person in Spain is a very different proposition so don't play silly buggers. Just look at the behavior of the football fans towards black players. I don't think any of them have recently been quoted as calling their team mates "monkies".


You don't know it is different. I've not heard of LH calling others monkeys, but if he did, neither I nor you know what he meant by it, and neither do we know what the banana throwers meant. But it does seem to me like you assume you know (wish to think) what LH meant and know (wish to think) what the banana throwers meant.

While I don't like to see the kind of behaviour from certain Spanish fans that has now taken place, I think it is abundantly clear that LH and McLaren asked for it (not in words, of course, but deeds).

#136 F1Obsession

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:10

Originally posted by HSJ


You don't know it is different. I've not heard of LH calling others monkeys, but if he did, neither I nor you know what he meant by it, and neither do we know what the banana throwers meant. But it does seem to me like you assume you know (wish to think) what LH meant and know (wish to think) what the banana throwers meant.

While I don't like to see the kind of behaviour from certain Spanish fans that has now taken place, I think it is abundantly clear that LH and McLaren asked for it (not in words, of course, but deeds).


Stop making excuses for racist behaviour. The context of "monkey" when Hamilton used it was completely different. I guess you are fine with the fans calling him "****ing nigger" too.

#137 Peter Perfect

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:10

Originally posted by HSJ

While I don't like to see the kind of behaviour from certain Spanish fans that has now taken place, I think it is abundantly clear that LH and McLaren asked for it (not in words, of course, but deeds).



:eek: So you think McLaren and Hamilton asked (and deserved) to be racially abused?! Is that what you really meant?

#138 HSJ

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:10

Originally posted by Lifew12


I think you endeavour to miss the point.

It has been explained to you.


Not at all. People are clearly just judging Hamilton by different standards than some "fans" they like to label one thing or another.

#139 Chiara

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:12

I don't think anyone 'deserves' to have things thrown at them, personally. That is probably the most worrying aspect of this, because someone could have got injured.

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#140 Nitropower

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:13

Originally posted by Claudius



So what are you saying, the McLaren complain of being disliked?!!


Some people will defend everything...
:down:


Excuse me I'm not defending or accusing. I'm talking about ways of looking at things.
Don't accuse me of defending racism I've said my opinion enough times.
I just say that, from what McLaren complains, racism and racist insults are wrong. those banners and booing are not wrong. Once people insulting are taken away, there's nothing to complain about.

#141 F1Obsession

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:14

Originally posted by Peter Perfect



:eek: So you think McLaren and Hamilton asked (and deserved) to be racially abused?! Is that what you really meant?


If that's how all the spanish and Alonso fans think then that's sick and disgusting.

#142 Peter Perfect

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:15

Originally posted by HSJ


Not at all. People are clearly just judging Hamilton by different standards than some "fans" they like to label one thing or another.


In this particular case I think it's fully justified.

If Hamilton called a friend a monkey I'd assume he meant it in the mischievous and cheeky sense of the word.

If 'fans' at a track call Hamilton a monkey while wearing anti-Hamilton t-shirts and wearing black face-paint I don't think it's jumping too far to say they don't mean it in the same sense.

It's all to do with context.

#143 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:16

As long as the comments and banners are not racist, :lol: :lol: :lol:

#144 djellison

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:17

Originally posted by HSJ

While I don't like to see the kind of behaviour from certain Spanish fans that has now taken place, I think it is abundantly clear that LH and McLaren asked for it (not in words, of course, but deeds).


You are saying that LH and McLaren in some way asked for or deserve vile racist attacks? People painting themselves brown and calling themselves 'Hamilton's Family', shouting at him? They 'asked' for that.

You're sick.

#145 Group B

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:24

Originally posted by Peter Perfect


In this particular case I think it's fully justified.

If Hamilton called a friend a monkey I'd assume he meant it in the mischievous and cheeky sense of the word.

If 'fans' at a track call Hamilton a monkey while wearing anti-Hamilton t-shirts and wearing black face-paint I don't think it's jumping too far to say they don't mean it in the same sense.

It's all to do with context.

I think it's obvious that LH's use of 'monkeys', while not racist, was fully intended to be offensive and demeaning rather than 'cheeky'.

#146 Claudius

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:28

Originally posted by Nitropower


Excuse me I'm not defending or accusing. I'm talking about ways of looking at things.
Don't accuse me of defending racism I've said my opinion enough times.
I just say that, from what McLaren complains, racism and racist insults are wrong. those banners and booing are not wrong. Once people insulting are taken away, there's nothing to complain about.




But that is exactly what you're doing, defending the racists by some feeble "explanation".
McLaren is not complaining about being disliked, it's complaining about stuff being thrown in and racism.
People painting their faces black, writing " Hamiltons family" in t-shirts and dancing in the grandstands is racist. People shouting puto negro or negro de mierda is racist. Nothing about disliking, it's about extreme hate.

If you don't see the behaviour of those "fans" as racist, then you're either blind or you're just think like them.

#147 GNT4ME

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:28

This is all so sad.
Once again F1 is going to be in the news for all the wrong reasons, and no doubt this kind of disgraceful behaviour will surface again and again. I fear for both of the Spanish Grand Prix plus the British Grand Prix this year.
IMO the tabloid press need to take a good hard look at them selves for whipping up this kind of nationalistic and racist bollocks.

I would take bets on the fact that the people hurling missiles and abuse at McLaren / Hamilton this weekend have never watched an F1 race pre 2005, and neither know much about, nor care much for the sport itself.

For me a huge element of enjoyment when attending a Grand Prix weekend, regardless of where I am in the world, has always been the shared excitement and joy of just being there. It’s always great to chat to people from different countries, who may well support a different driver or team to me – but what the hell……
It’s the shared thrill you feel when you hear an F1 car being fired up, and witness the speed and agility of an F1 car in motion, plus the sharing of knowledge and previous experiences which matter to a true F1 fan.

As always, I have already booked my tickets for this years British Grand Prix.
I am starting to wish I had saved my money as I have a horrible fear that there will be
reciprocally awful behaviour from our own home grown idiots.

What we need is for Mad Max to take his head from up his own arse for long enough to see what is happening and to do something about it. He did not hesitate from threatening journalists who reported on the McLaren debacle in a way he did not like last year – maybe he should exert some of that pressure on the tabloids who are stoking this potentially damaging fire of hatred.

#148 Jacquesback

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:29

Originally posted by Group B

I think it's obvious that LH's use of 'monkeys', while not racist, was fully intended to be offensive and demeaning rather than 'cheeky'.


I think the only thing that is obvious is your intense dislike for Lewis and McLaren. :rolleyes:

#149 Hacklerf

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:29

When i used to take my Schumacher flags to the British GP , i used to get abused and i was only young, and also British!

But lucky for me abuse like that doesn't effect me.

#150 Jacquesback

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 17:38

Originally posted by gio66


NO NO NO!!!

Absolutely no!

There's a misunderstanding!

Please, believe me, my comment is absolutely sarcastic!


:up: