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What will you think of HAmilton if mclaren still fails to make hia winning champion?


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#1 ForMules

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 19:56

Would you think that the claims of his car development ability is grossly overrated? After all, a lot of people seem to give most of the credit to Mclaren great 2007 car copied on ferrari than to Hamilton.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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#2 Enkei

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 20:03

Impossible to tell, but McLaren has already given him a CC winning car last year, they only just missed the boat by 1 point.

I must however admit that it you indeed have a great sense of humour.

#3 Sbastien

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 21:03

What is a "hia winning champion"??

#4 COUGAR508

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 22:07

As time goes by, more of an onus will be placed on Hamilton to display leadership at McLaren, both technical and otherwise.

#5 Chiara

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 22:13

No idea LOL ;)

Do we actually know Hamilton has great development/leadership skills? Surely he has been in the sport too shorter time to know exactly what he does and doesn't bring to the team. I think after just one season's experience it's asking a bit much of him to lead a team. After five years ok...but just one?

Aren't the first few years of an F1 drivers career in the sport pretty much a learning curve?

#6 undersquare

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 23:06

Originally posted by Chiara
No idea LOL ;)

Do we actually know Hamilton has great development/leadership skills? Surely he has been in the sport too shorter time to know exactly what he does and doesn't bring to the team. I think after just one season's experience it's asking a bit much of him to lead a team. After five years ok...but just one?

Aren't the first few years of an F1 drivers career in the sport pretty much a learning curve?


At the risk of taking this strangely titled thread too seriously ;) ...

I was surprised reading his book to see that last year Hammy was doing his own setups, quite specifically in terms of spring rates etc. He spent an enormous amount of time at the factory. Setup cost him some results but I got the impression that by the end of the season he was doing it perfectly well.

He also seems to end up in the middle of any group of people he's with, whoever they are. His confidence is extraordinary. I don't think he can "lead" a team yet, but I think he can be its focal point, and I that comes completely naturally to him. I can well imagine the factory feeling they're doing a car for Lewis, knowing that whatever they give him, he'll wring every last bit out of it.

#7 F1Obsession

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 23:33

The thing is noone claimed that Hamilton was a good car developer. So unlike Alonso, Hamilton has nothing to prove.

#8 big x

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 23:50

Having struggled to read through your question I've concluded it's gibberish Posted Image

adam

#9 nestor

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 03:50

Originally posted by F1Obsession
The thing is noone claimed that Hamilton was a good car developer. So unlike Alonso, Hamilton has nothing to prove.


You got it all wrong here buddy, Alonso has nothing to prove anymore , been there done that , he is already a 2 times WDC , there is nothing else to prove , Hamilton in the other hand has a lot to prove , he already promised the title to McLaren this year , so you decide ...

#10 lukywill

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 14:28

if the ferraris are not dominant in 08 i certainly expect hamilton to take all the ron´s gold.

if he doesn´t do that he just another loser:

.had the oportunity in 07 and failed.
.in 08 there´s no other option.

a great pressure on hamilton and no safe fences to go.

i say he will lose it.

#11 Davebo

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 14:36

Originally posted by ForMules
Would you think that the claims of his car development ability is grossly overrated? After all, a lot of people seem to give most of the credit to Mclaren great 2007 car copied on ferrari than to Hamilton.

:rotfl: :rotfl:


TS : DR*




*Too Stupid: Didn't Read

#12 lukywill

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 14:56

Originally posted by Davebo


TS : DR*




*Too Stupid: Didn't Read


uO:ik=OP

too smart too be intelligent.

:lol:

#13 jigc

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 15:01

do u think mclaren need a fast driver to become WDC?
look what had kimi achieved at Mclaren :)

#14 Matt Hughes

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 15:06

I'll still think he's a great driver. I'm happy to be able to cheer on a British driver who seems to be the most exciting prospect in the sport. I'm bored of the British 'it's the taking part that counts' attitude and I'm equally tired of the British tradition of taking potshots at our most succesful sports people and then crucifying them when they fail.

I find it amusing that people are saying this is a make-or-break year for the guy. It's not as if he's been distinctly average up until Formula One, had one lucky great year and might be over the hill already. He's obviously a great talent and I don't see why not winning the title this year will change that, especially if Ferrari have the better car.

The odd thing is that the more I come to this forum, the more I support the guy. I have kind of given up on wasting my time replying to the collection of idiots this Hamilton/McLaren vs. Alonso and/or Ferrari thing seems to have produced and find it far easier to take pleasure when Lewis just beats them out on circuit.

#15 coyoteBR

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 17:57

If Hamilton doesn't get this year c'ship, it means two things:
1) that Ferrari/other team put a real good efford
2) that he is still very young, and will have other oportunities.

Come, people. Where is it written that a driver needs to be champion before his 3rd year in F-1, or he is slow/useless/cry-baby/etc? Case in point, Nigel Mansell.

Lewis Hamilton has more than a decade of F-1 in front of him. Let him race, his title will come, sooner or later.

#16 volumenzero

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 18:06

Originally posted by coyoteBR
If Hamilton doesn't get this year c'ship, it means two things:
1) that Ferrari/other team put a real good efford
2) that he is still very young, and will have other oportunities.

Come, people. Where is it written that a driver needs to be champion before his 3rd year in F-1, or he is slow/useless/cry-baby/etc? Case in point, Nigel Mansell.

Lewis Hamilton has more than a decade of F-1 in front of him. Let him race, his title will come, sooner or later.


some people in this BB made him look like "a god of F1" last year.

I never understood these people. So he's the best since bottled coke, but if he fails miserably is not his fault.

#17 lukywill

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 18:45

Originally posted by coyoteBR
If Hamilton doesn't get this year c'ship, it means two things:
1) that Ferrari/other team put a real good efford
2) that he is still very young, and will have other oportunities.

Come, people. Where is it written that a driver needs to be champion before his 3rd year in F-1, or he is slow/useless/cry-baby/etc? Case in point, Nigel Mansell.

Lewis Hamilton has more than a decade of F-1 in front of him. Let him race, his title will come, sooner or later.


the problem is mclaren.

they should win in 07.
they lose it.

because of hamilton. a disgrace to mercedes i´m sure.

obviously you do not make alonso in the equation. to bad for you.
brasilians always want something out of reach. but when they get some poor results from their parents they always reject it.

we really must teach a bit more.

#18 SkorbiF1

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 19:03

Most of the people saw Kimi as a great driver even after five years in Mclaren and not a single championship.
I don't think it's a problem if Hamilton doesn't win one in his second year, he'll still probably have a great future.

#19 lukywill

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 19:15

Originally posted by SkorbiF1
Most of the people saw Kimi as a great driver even after five years in Mclaren and not a single championship.
I don't think it's a problem if Hamilton doesn't win one in his second year, he'll still probably have a great future.


guilty: you didn´t mention alonso.

and kimi was champion with ferrari, not mclaren.

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#20 FonzCam

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 19:24

I think we need another thread

What will you think of KOvalainen if mclaren still fails to make hia winning champion?

or maybe

What will you think of heiDFEld if bmw still falis to mke him wining champion?>

:rolleyes:

F1 championships rely on luck and judgement to get the right ride at the right time and then some skill to beat your teammate and any opposition if another team has a fast car.

At least one major car manufacturer will be paying a fair few $100m to come no better then 6th next year (and their drivers no matter how good will be lucky to score points in double figures) it's just how the sport works.

#21 SkorbiF1

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 19:44

Originally posted by lukywill


guilty: you didn´t mention alonso.

and kimi was champion with ferrari, not mclaren.

Right.. I'm guilty of not mentioning Alonso?
And yes, Kimi became a champion with Ferrari, not Mclaren.

Now where's that smiley.. Aah, here : :confused:

#22 Claudius

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 19:44

Originally posted by lukywill


the problem is mclaren.

they should win in 07.
they lose it.

because of hamilton. a disgrace to mercedes i´m sure.
.



The problem is Alonso.

He, as a 2Wdc veteran should have won in 07.
He lost it.

McLaren had to rely on a rookie, from the 3d race of the season, who came very close to winning.
I'm sure Alonso was a disgrace to Mercedes, being beaten by a rookie...

#23 SeanValen

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 20:06

Is he as lucky as Alonso?

Personally I think Alonso has been in the right places at the right time. In comparison to Kimi, the wrong places at the wrong time.

Hamilton has the talent to win championships, but is he lucky enough to be inchanted by a strong mclaren spell of performance? Exactly what did Kimi do wrong in 2002/2003/2004/2005/2006/ at Mclaren? Not much, beat DC, beat Montoya, challenged in 2003/2005, he deserved a championship, at least one before 2007 in my book. Alonso stood loyal to Renault, and they produced a good car, Mclaren where nearly there, but never greatly there,

FERRARI AND RENAULT THE BEST TEAMS SO FAR IN THE 21ST CENTURY! FACT, THEY WON TITLES, WCC

MCLAREN, THEIR BEST YEAR IN 2007, AND DONE FOR CHEATING,go FIGURE

Renault only team to come close to ferrari quality, and Alonso good enough to give Schumi some fights, the rest comes to some luck, the best driver was Schumi always, but you don't have to be best to win, everyone has bad days, Alonso has had bad days, Kimi deserves better days and finally got it in 2007.

#24 FonzCam

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 20:08

Originally posted by Claudius



The problem is Alonso.

He, as a 2Wdc veteran should have won in 07.
He lost it.

McLaren had to rely on a rookie, from the 3d race of the season, who came very close to winning.
I'm sure Alonso was a disgrace to Mercedes, being beaten by a rookie...


There is no problem.

McLaren give 2 great drivers two equally great cars and let them slug it out for the title even when Ferrari are in the mix with 2 cars. 4 guys all chasing the title made for a great title battle, and at the end after mistakes from all sides Kimi comes back to form and grabs the title by just one point with the two McLarens equal on points.

WHY must people continue lay blame for what was a great title chase that went down to the wire in a 3 way fight. You can't have all three winning and there is a chance that a driver will come close once and never get another shot.

The McLaren policy of equality should be celebrated because it allows 2 of the best drivers into 2 of the best cars rather then having mid level drivers in the '2nd' seat at a team stopping better drivers from rising to the top of the sport.

Before you start bitching about Hamilton/Alonso not having equal treatment take a long hard look at the events of the year and try to put yourself on the other side of the argument. It seems that the very equality that they were given is what riles so many fans of both drivers because by being equal they were forced to accept the reality that they are not THAT much better then the other, the difference between the outright speed of top F1 drivers in equal these days is so fine that if drivers do nothing wrong then blind luck is often all that separates them in the championship. Don't confuse luck with bias.

#25 tifosi

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 20:25

I'd think the same I think now. McClaren sucks and it will be 22 years between championships for them :lol:

#26 Claudius

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 20:42

Originally posted by FonzCam


There is no problem.

McLaren give 2 great drivers two equally great cars and let them slug it out for the title even when Ferrari are in the mix with 2 cars. 4 guys all chasing the title made for a great title battle, and at the end after mistakes from all sides Kimi comes back to form and grabs the title by just one point with the two McLarens equal on points.

WHY must people continue lay blame for what was a great title chase that went down to the wire in a 3 way fight. You can't have all three winning and there is a chance that a driver will come close once and never get another shot.

The McLaren policy of equality should be celebrated because it allows 2 of the best drivers into 2 of the best cars rather then having mid level drivers in the '2nd' seat at a team stopping better drivers from rising to the top of the sport.

Before you start bitching about Hamilton/Alonso not having equal treatment take a long hard look at the events of the year and try to put yourself on the other side of the argument. It seems that the very equality that they were given is what riles so many fans of both drivers because by being equal they were forced to accept the reality that they are not THAT much better then the other, the difference between the outright speed of top F1 drivers in equal these days is so fine that if drivers do nothing wrong then blind luck is often all that separates them in the championship. Don't confuse luck with bias.



Take it easy.
My post was an ironic reply to lukys irrational ramblings.
I guess I shouldn't have answered him to begin with...

#27 FonzCam

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 20:52

Originally posted by Claudius



Take it easy.
My post was an ironic reply to lukys irrational ramblings.
I guess I shouldn't have answered him to begin with...


I know it was. :) I probably should have quoted him directly rather then through you. :cool:

#28 Kenaltgr

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 21:27

Originally posted by SeanValen
Is he as lucky as Alonso?

Personally I think Alonso has been in the right places at the right time. In comparison to Kimi, the wrong places at the wrong time.

Hamilton has the talent to win championships, but is he lucky enough to be inchanted by a strong mclaren spell of performance? Exactly what did Kimi do wrong in 2002/2003/2004/2005/2006/ at Mclaren? Not much, beat DC, beat Montoya, challenged in 2003/2005, he deserved a championship, at least one before 2007 in my book. Alonso stood loyal to Renault, and they produced a good car, Mclaren where nearly there, but never greatly there,

FERRARI AND RENAULT THE BEST TEAMS SO FAR IN THE 21ST CENTURY! FACT, THEY WON TITLES, WCC

MCLAREN, THEIR BEST YEAR IN 2007, AND DONE FOR CHEATING,go FIGURE

Renault only team to come close to ferrari quality, and Alonso good enough to give Schumi some fights, the rest comes to some luck, the best driver was Schumi always, but you don't have to be best to win, everyone has bad days, Alonso has had bad days, Kimi deserves better days and finally got it in 2007.


Alonso beat Schumacher in a slower, less reliable Renault in 2006(wheel nuts, english blows). That tells us all we really need to know about Schumacher. If Massa was given equal status in 2006, like against Kimi for most of 2007, Alonso won have won beaten Schumacher even easier that year.
Talking about luck and right place at the right time, that leaves Schumacher the luckiest F1 driver ever. He hit the jackpot when Senna died in 1994 and got gifted 2 championships.

#29 giacomo

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 21:45

Originally posted by ForMules
Would you think that the claims of his car development ability is grossly overrated?

Can't remember many claims about Hamilton having great car development abilities.

#30 giacomo

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 21:48

Originally posted by Kenaltgr
Alonso beat Schumacher in a slower, less reliable Renault in 2006(wheel nuts, english blows). That tells us all we really need to know about Schumacher. If Massa was given equal status in 2006, like against Kimi for most of 2007, Alonso won have won beaten Schumacher even easier that year.
Talking about luck and right place at the right time, that leaves Schumacher the luckiest F1 driver ever. He hit the jackpot when Senna died in 1994 and got gifted 2 championships.

And those short two paragraphs tell us all we really need to know about Kenaltgr. :p

#31 coyoteBR

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 22:45

Ok, let's imagine Lewis Hamilton fails to get the 2008 c'ship.
More than that, let's say he never becames the champion.

What does this makes him? Before answering, take a look in the following list:

- Stirling Moss
- Carlos Reutmann
- José Carlos Pace
- Gilles Villeneuve
- Jacques Laffite
- Andrea de Cesaris
- Rene Arnoux
- Jack Ickx
- Ronnie Peterson

A Formula One driver doesn't need a title to be considered "great". Lewis Hamilton, thanks to his debut year, is already on that road.
The same way, 20 years from now, we all will hear, like him or not: "Wow, grampa/granma, you saw Michael Schumacher racing?"

Let's put things in perspective and stop being so imediatists

#32 lukywill

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Posted 04 February 2008 - 22:57

yes. all greats. can put there jean pierre jarrier.

what that proves?

nothing i suppose.

make the list for who ever never take the championship but let others go by:

. reutemann
. pironi.

#33 Davebo

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 00:25

Likewise, he has a long way to go before even mentioning him in the same breath as the folks on your list. Very premature of you - he's a no-one, who's done nothing yet. And there it stands...

#34 lukywill

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 00:34

Originally posted by Davebo
Likewise, he has a long way to go before even mentioning him in the same breath as the folks on your list. Very premature of you - he's a no-one, who's done nothing yet. And there it stands...


who?

#35 Chui

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 03:20

Originally posted by ForMules
Would you think that the claims of his car development ability is grossly overrated? After all, a lot of people seem to give most of the credit to Mclaren great 2007 car copied on ferrari than to Hamilton.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Won't change a thing. ALL of these drivers have it spades against both YOU and I. There's no way for you, I or anyone on this board to properly assess responsibility as to why a car/driver/team combo is or is not successful. I won't even attempt.

LH is the most talented new driver. Finishing second in his first season and tieing/beating the current WDC - no matter the circumstances - should have quieted the peanut gallery.

#36 Chui

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 03:23

Originally posted by Davebo
Likewise, he has a long way to go before even mentioning him in the same breath as the folks on your list. Very premature of you - he's a no-one, who's done nothing yet. And there it stands...

ONLY an intellectual clown would pronounce him a "no one"... He's driving inthe pinnacle motorsport series and finished second in his first season.

Yep. Clown Intellect intact. :rolleyes:

#37 FonzCam

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 05:33

Originally posted by Chui

ONLY an intellectual clown would pronounce him a "no one"... He's driving inthe pinnacle motorsport series and finished second in his first season.

Yep. Clown Intellect intact. :rolleyes:


Sir, that is an insult to Clowns everywhere! :cool:

#38 Apocalypse

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:16

Reliability problems cost 2 WDC's for Kimi at McLaren. Even in the 2005 season the engine change -> 10 positions down the grid happened to Kimi many times. That's an utterly idiotic rule by the way... it puts more emphasis on the car reliability than the fast driver... they should only strip constructor's points from that.

If Macs are as fast and reliable as in 2007 I think Hammy will have a chance. It won't be an embarrassment if he doesn't win the WDC, but if he can't destroy Kovalainen (who in general public's minds is just an average driver)... that will seriously lower his status.

#39 postajegenye

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 11:38

Scenario No1: McLaren fails to make a winning car, but Hamilton is better than Kova.
Scenario No2: McLaren manages to make a winning car, Hamilton is WDC.

I would think the SAME of him in both cases. He actually may be driving much better this year than he did in 2007, and still be 6th in the WDC. As long as he's better than his team mate you can't really say he drives badly because we don't know what others could do with that car.

Scenario No3: McLaren makes a winning car but Hamilton fails, beats Kova though.

We would never really know whether he failed or the car. His fans will blame the car, his haters will call him a crap driver.

Scenario No4: Kova is better than him.

Well, THEN I wouldn't think such good things of him :D

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#40 volumenzero

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 14:22



Any driver with a winning car has a small chance to win the WDC because of the risks and luck involved in this sport. If lewis does not win, the world continues spinning.

#41 Chui

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 16:37

Originally posted by lukywill
if the ferraris are not dominant in 08 i certainly expect hamilton to take all the ron´s gold.

if he doesn´t do that he just another loser:

.had the oportunity in 07 and failed.
.in 08 there´s no other option.

a great pressure on hamilton and no safe fences to go.

i say he will lose it.

Not 1/100th the loser, as it were, as some of the members here I presume...

#42 Claudius

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 20:29

Originally posted by Chui

ONLY an intellectual clown would pronounce him a "no one"... He's driving inthe pinnacle motorsport series and finished second in his first season.

Yep. Clown Intellect intact. :rolleyes:



Alonso told The Sunday People: “The less said about him [LH] the better especially when he is someone who has achieved nothing at all.”
http://sports.setant...slams-Hamilton/

;)

#43 IannDC

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 21:55

Reposting here from a closed thread, but relevant to this.

Hamilton only had one season in F1, it is too early to judge him on his development capabilties. That would be totally unfair to him.

But, he has two enemies to the title -- the over-zealous British press and himself.

The press -- I pity the lad because the press has rose expectations of him way too high that he is expected to fulfil them yesterday. When he does not, they will drop him like a ton of bricks and that can cause his future, and confidence, to tether on the brink of destruction.

Himself – He is lapping up the poster-boy, darling image imposed on him too eagerly that it can be an immense distraction to the goal that he, like all sportsmen, wants to achieve: be a world champion. Like the kid finding himself in the candy bar, there is the danger that he can bring himself to ruin if he does not learn to say no to the temptation of getting into the pages too often and at the wrong time.

#44 Chui

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 22:22

Originally posted by Claudius



Alonso told The Sunday People: “The less said about him [LH] the better especially when he is someone who has achieved nothing at all.”
http://sports.setant...slams-Hamilton/

;)

Well, if beating the reigning two-time WDC in one's rookie season is no thing at all then maybe he's correct. :drunk:

#45 IannDC

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 22:28

Originally posted by Chui

Well, if beating the reigning two-time WDC in one's rookie season is no thing at all then maybe he's correct. :drunk:


How do you define Hamilton beat Alonso, when the head-to-head statistic read Alonso 9 Hamilton 6 (excluding Japan and China) the whole season?

#46 Kpy

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 22:44

Originally posted by IannDC


How do you define Hamilton beat Alonso, when the head-to-head statistic read Alonso 9 Hamilton 6 (excluding Japan and China) the whole season?


By using the FIA WDC points system.

#47 alg7_munif

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 22:52

Originally posted by Chui

Well, if beating the reigning two-time WDC in one's rookie season is no thing at all then maybe he's correct. :drunk:

He doesn't beat the reigning two-time WDC but he managed to get as much point as the reigning two-time WDC with the same car. Did I forgot to mention that he did it in his first year in F1?

#48 Scudetto

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 22:55

Same points tally, yes, but Hammy is ranked 2nd by virtue of his classifications.

#49 Apocalypse

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Posted 05 February 2008 - 23:12

Hammy is stronger and better driver than last year, but I also have no doubts that Kimi will be much harder to beat this year. The rumors say that Kimi is very lazy though... especially when it's about car development and all that stuff.

If Kimi is 100% motivated, stays out of booze and strippers... and Ferrari can make a reliable & fast car, I doubt anyone can threaten his 2008 WDC.

#50 hobbes

hobbes
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Posted 05 February 2008 - 23:18

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Hammy is stronger and better driver than last year, but I also have no doubts that Kimi will be much harder to beat this year. The rumors say that Kimi is very lazy though... especially when it's about car development and all that stuff.

If Kimi is 100% motivated, stays out of booze and strippers... and Ferrari can make a reliable & fast car, I doubt anyone can threaten his 2008 WDC.


As i read in past interviews and comments from todt, ferrari knows how to treat kimi and he certainly seems very happy there, and it also seems to be working. Dont really know how he used to be in the past, but he seems to be very comfortable where he is now and he said it himself. I think the title will mostly depend on which team makes the best car and of course luck