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Here's what Alesi had to say about it...


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Poll: Here's what Alesi had to say about it... (49 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Yes (40 votes [81.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 81.63%

  2. No (8 votes [16.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  3. I have a better idea. Here it is, let me explain it...(and then you do!!!) (1 votes [2.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

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#1 Arrows4Ever

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 00:30

Don't mean to start another thread that could end on a bad note...
I think this topic turned sour a few times before but I think what Alesi brings up is worth mentionning.

A corrected AltaVista translation roughly gives this:

"Joined by CKAC Sports, Jean Alesi believes that it is necessary to be very careful about the charges of racism towards Lewis Hamilton, in Spain. Alesi believes that a bunch of idiots are not the reflection of the overall Spanish people and that a simple photograph with Hamilton and Alonzo could avoid many incidents."

I also heard the excerpt on radio where he mentionned that he sees both of them(if they accept to pose together) as ambassadors for non-violence and anti-racism.

Now, is there a company already involved in F1, intelligent enough to back this opportunity and great message or could this turn into a stupid fight between McLaren and Renault sponsors?
Or how about a joint venture project anyone?

Source:

http://www.corusspor...205-704732.html

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#2 For sure

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:10

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever
Don't mean to start another thread that could end on a bad note...
I think this topic turned sour a few times before but I think what Alesi brings up is worth mentionning.

A corrected AltaVista translation roughly gives this:

"Joined by CKAC Sports, Jean Alesi believes that it is necessary to be very careful about the charges of racism towards Lewis Hamilton, in Spain. Alesi believes that a bunch of idiots are not the reflection of the overall Spanish people and that a simple photograph with Hamilton and Alonzo could avoid many incidents."

I also heard the excerpt on radio where he mentionned that he sees both of them(if they accept to pose together) as ambassadors for non-violence and anti-racism.

Now, is there a company already involved in F1, intelligent enough to back this opportunity and great message or could this turn into a stupid fight between McLaren and Renault sponsors?
Or how about a joint venture project anyone?

Source:

http://www.corusspor...205-704732.html

So - the racists should set the agenda?

Doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

What next - fans start snorting cocaine in the stands and Mark Webber has to come out saying he likes the occasional toke on a phatt doobie, but that coke is a no-no? Or murder in the stands and Ron Dennis has to come out French-kissing Max Mosley to demonstrate everybody can be friends?

Getting drivers etc. to do some false act of reconciliation every time the crowd misbehaves sets something of a dangerous precedent, imo.

#3 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:24

And the alternative of not doing anything?

#4 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:43

Maybe one problem we have is that, in reality, there is no "perfect" response to an incident like that. Everything would have its pros and cons. Alesi's suggestion is interesting, but you can guarantee there would be snipes about its "falsity", etc. In some respects, maybe the drivers should just get on with the jobs they're paid to do? I know, that's hardly a perfect response either.

#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 10:50

Well I think Alonso and Renault are being morally negligent in not saying or doing anything. They are 'his' fans and if he isn't criticising them he is condoing them by default.

#6 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:09

Let's leave Alonso aside for the moment here - you're saying Renault are being morally negligent? How so?

#7 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:12

Alonso is a Renault driver in Renault colors in sponsors. Even though it's cynical, their press department is missing a great opportunity to try to get some positive PR by being the good guys.

#8 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:15

But then it would be read as precisely that - exploiting the situation for good PR.

I think the approach they have taken is to think that drawing attention to the small numbers committing racist abuse is exactly what those perpetrators would like (after all, this is something that thrives on its own capacity to attract attention to itself), and that a low-key silence is the best approach so long as the circuit authorities are able to prevent that small minority from gaining further access to the stands.

#9 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:24

It's not a political demonstration. It's a bunch of jackasses who don't like Hamilton because he was Alonso's rival and are using his skin color as the method of insult. It's gotten far bigger than it needed to be, but Alonso would do his image no end of good and help difuse the situation if he'd say something, even symbolically, to try to calm it. Pardon the cliche, but his silence is deafaning. Especially for someone who couldn't keep his opinions to himself last year.

Shame bpl isn't around anymore, but it's probably better for him that way because we don't have to gang up on him.

#10 For sure

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by wj_gibson
But then it would be read as precisely that - exploiting the situation for good PR.

I think the approach they have taken is to think that drawing attention to the small numbers committing racist abuse is exactly what those perpetrators would like (after all, this is something that thrives on its own capacity to attract attention to itself), and that a low-key silence is the best approach so long as the circuit authorities are able to prevent that small minority from gaining further access to the stands.


I think the only dignified thing Renault/Alonso and/or Hamilton/McLaren can do (if they feel they need to be seen doing something) would be to support the FIA's comments on the situation.

I am no fan of Alonso, but I think he's a bit "damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" do anything, and keeping quiet might be the best approach. I guess these empty-head racists just want a response anyway, and, like an irritating child, stop paying them attention and they'll get bored and move on to something else.

It is like a "real" case of "don't feed the (forum) trolls".

#11 3Sword

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 11:33

A few years ago we were fighting a grass fire that threatened a few houses.
Trere was this guy who did nothing, and just said "It is not my problem. I didn't start this fire"
My point is that everybody is responsible in trying to putt out this racism problem.
If Fernando, Lewis and Renault can help, they should do so.

#12 Clatter

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 12:08

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well I think Alonso and Renault are being morally negligent in not saying or doing anything. They are 'his' fans and if he isn't criticising them he is condoing them by default.


I agree.

He should have come out and said something straight away, by delaying, anything he now says will seem insincere.

#13 HP

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:00

Isn't part of the problem that certain parties made a great fuss of it? Now everybody involved is sort of expected to take an anti-racist position. Great anti-racism PR, but it doesn't solve the real issue.

Had I been in Alonso's position and been at the track, I'd went up to those folks and asked them to take down the offending banners. If FA knows some of the folks he'd might still have the opportunity to say a few things to them in private. No need to put everything in the public.

Anyone else talking to those who put up the banners are most likely being perceived as "morale-apostles". That's not helping. People being accused of something "getting better" because of the accusations? Doubtful for me, except if it was a prank. But it clearly wasn't one.

#14 Orin

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:18

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
It's not a political demonstration. It's a bunch of jackasses who don't like Hamilton because he was Alonso's rival and are using his skin color as the method of insult. It's gotten far bigger than it needed to be, but Alonso would do his image no end of good and help difuse the situation if he'd say something, even symbolically, to try to calm it. Pardon the cliche, but his silence is deafaning. Especially for someone who couldn't keep his opinions to himself last year.


Exactly, they've been slagging off Hamilton and McLaren for months, but when they start hurling racial abuse it's time to speak up. I noticed even Marca drew the line over the latest episode, Alonso should have said something.

#15 speedy

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:30

Why do I have a bad feeling that silence from FA's part is intentional - he is doing nothing wrong as such by being silent and OTH he isn't doing anything good either.

#16 Buttoneer

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:37

Originally posted by wj_gibson
But then it would be read as precisely that - exploiting the situation for good PR.

None of the teams are above doing that normally so why now.

"Fernando Alonso and the whole Renault team fully supports the FIA's push to drive out racism from the grandstands at all Formula 1 events and tests wherever they are held. Fernando Alonso wishes to distance himself from the views of the spectators at Barcelona who expressed racist views."

Sounds perfect to me.

#17 jaisli

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:40

Well I have to agree with Ross's sentiment. One can make a case that while these folks may be a bunch of racist jerks by nature, their actions are probably only targeted against Hamilton because of the big spat he had with Alonso.

Like it or not, Alonso is a celebrity in Spain and his words and actions command a certain social status. And I'm willing to bet these folks consider themselves his fans and in their minds are doing this because of him. There may indeed be such personal animosity between Fernando and Lewis that Alonso could care less about their treatment of Lewis. But there is something greater at stake here. By Alonso remaining silent in public, he is effectively condoning their actions. And I think if he had gone to the papers and immediately and strongly rebuked these turds and their display, it would have gone along way in diffusing the situation before it became front page news and we had the FIA threatening Spanish races. One day in the not too distant future, Fernando's silence on this issue may come back to haunt him, Spanish racing fans, and the outside world's perception.

#18 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:01

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well I think Alonso and Renault are being morally negligent in not saying or doing anything. They are 'his' fans and if he isn't criticising them he is condoing them by default.


:up:

IMO his opportunity window is now gone. He is clearly comfortable with having his name associated with the actions of those fellas in the stands. The only reason he would have for not making any sort of statement is a tacit approval of the behaviour.

I was not a fan of his behaviour last year, but admired his driving and recognised his skill and that he was a 2X WDC, but his silence on this matter has written him off for me absolutely.

#19 Chiara

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:13

Originally posted by F1Johnny


:up:

IMO his opportunity window is now gone. He is clearly comfortable with having his name associated with the actions of those fellas in the stands. The only reason he would have for not making any sort of statement is a tacit approval of the behaviour.

I was not a fan of his behaviour last year, but admired his driving and recognised his skill and that he was a 2X WDC, but his silence on this matter has written him off for me absolutely.


I don't know that its a case of him approving of the behaviour, but perhaps a bit of a mentality of "its not my problem" therefore "why should I go out of my way to deal with it?".

I have got the impression throughout his career that he is quite introspective and insular rather than looking to the bigger picture sometimes.

I might be an old cynic but I don't feel a photo opportunity with Lewis is going to solve this one. There is still the small underlying matter of what exactly did go on at McLaren last year...that seems to be bothering his fanbase. Shaking hands and playing nicely for the camera will not take away the perception that something unpleasant went on behind closed doors.

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#20 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:23

Originally posted by Chiara


I don't know that its a case of him approving of the behaviour, but perhaps a bit of a mentality of "its not my problem" therefore "why should I go out of my way to deal with it?".

I have got the impression throughout his career that he is quite introspective and insular rather than looking to the bigger picture sometimes.

I might be an old cynic but I don't feel a photo opportunity with Lewis is going to solve this one. There is still the small underlying matter of what exactly did go on at McLaren last year...that seems to be bothering his fanbase. Shaking hands and playing nicely for the camera will not take away the perception that something unpleasant went on behind closed doors.


I should have said that I do not think it necessary for there to be a photo op with Lewis. All he needed to say was "I disassociate myself with the actions of the spectators in the stands on XX February 2008". It has nothing to do with Lewis. He would not be doing it out of the goodness of his heart for Lewis, he dislikes him, so I understand that. But he clearly has no problem with racism being perpetrated in his honour or support.

#21 NineOneSeven

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:27

Originally posted by jaisli
Well I have to agree with Ross's sentiment. One can make a case that while these folks may be a bunch of racist jerks by nature, their actions are probably only targeted against Hamilton because of the big spat he had with Alonso.

Like it or not, Alonso is a celebrity in Spain and his words and actions command a certain social status. And I'm willing to bet these folks consider themselves his fans and in their minds are doing this because of him. There may indeed be such personal animosity between Fernando and Lewis that Alonso could care less about their treatment of Lewis. But there is something greater at stake here. By Alonso remaining silent in public, he is effectively condoning their actions. And I think if he had gone to the papers and immediately and strongly rebuked these turds and their display, it would have gone along way in diffusing the situation before it became front page news and we had the FIA threatening Spanish races. One day in the not too distant future, Fernando's silence on this issue may come back to haunt him, Spanish racing fans, and the outside world's perception.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

I am serial lurker on this site but even I have say something about this. Its unacceptable and Fernando has shown who he really is.

I'd like to quote Sam L Jackson in Jackie Brown as he shot Robert De'Niro; in refering to Fernando. 'What happend to us man????
'We Used to be Beautiful.'

Or something like that. Fernando was like the secound coming in F1 terms. 2007 He ruined it. I can't root for him no mo'

:down:

#22 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:35

Originally posted by NineOneSeven
:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

I am serial lurker on this site but even I have say something about this. Its unacceptable and Fernando has shown who he really is.

I'd like to quote Sam L Jackson in Jackie Brown as he shot Robert De'Niro; in refering to Fernando. 'What happend to us man????
'We Used to be Beautiful.'

Or something like that. Fernando was like the secound coming in F1 terms. 2007 He ruined it. I can't root for him no mo'

:down:


Great quote selection. I agree with your sentiments as well.

#23 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:44

I am always suspicious of "serial lurkers" as I tend to think they are really just extra avatars for existing contributors who can be used to prop up a particular point of view...

#24 Chiara

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:46

Originally posted by wj_gibson
I am always suspicious of "serial lurkers" as I tend to think they are really just extra avatars for existing contributors who can be used to prop up a particular point of view...


I lurked here for about a year before I posted....some people are just shy about posting to start with ;)

#25 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:49

True, but there was a particularly laughable incident on another F1 board a while ago when it turned out that one contributor had been using an alternative avatar simply to give the impression that someone else was prepared to "support" his own comments and opinions.

#26 SlateGray

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:49

Originally posted by F1Johnny
But he clearly has no problem with racism being perpetrated in his honour or support.


Please don't assume that you know what is in Fernando Alonso mind. The fact is you don't know, so please don't suggest that you do. It is sad that many of Alonso's detractors are using the actions of a few racist assholes to move their anti Alonso agenda forward.

#27 jaisli

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:11

Originally posted by SlateGray


Please don't assume that you know what is in Fernando Alonso mind. The fact is you don't know, so please don't suggest that you do. It is sad that many of Alonso's detractors are using the actions of a few racist assholes to move their anti Alonso agenda forward.


No, he doesn't know what's on Fernando's mind. And neither do I. But I have no such agenda. I've been a big Alonso supporter since his Minardi days. And believe me, Fernando is smart enough to know that his words, or lack of words, carry a lot of weight in Spain. And as a matter of moral principle, he should have said something. Or do you want to tell me that he doesn't realize that?

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#28 For sure

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:12

Originally posted by SlateGray


Please don't assume that you know what is in Fernando Alonso mind. The fact is you don't know, so please don't suggest that you do. It is sad that many of Alonso's detractors are using the actions of a few racist assholes to move their anti Alonso agenda forward.

Agree entirely. No Alonso fan (not by a LONG way) but for some people to suggest he has somehow perpetuated the problem by not coming out and condemning (and thereby giving attention to) the racists or that he is otherwise allied to them is entirely out of order.

They are NOT being racist in Alonso's name. They might THINK they are, but they (I presume!!) do not have his blessing to carry on as they have been, and he should not be held in ANY way responsible for their actions.

#29 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:18

Originally posted by SlateGray


Please don't assume that you know what is in Fernando Alonso mind. The fact is you don't know, so please don't suggest that you do. It is sad that many of Alonso's detractors are using the actions of a few racist assholes to move their anti Alonso agenda forward. [/B]


Exactly right SG. Only a fool would see it as anything else. That lurker felllow actually says as much when he says,

"Fernando was like the secound coming in F1 terms. 2007 He ruined it. "

His mind was made up in 2007, and has nothing to do with the incident in Barca.

Bloody opportunists.

#30 jaisli

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:37

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Exactly right SG. Only a fool would see it as anything else. That lurker felllow actually says as much when he says,

"Fernando was like the secound coming in F1 terms. 2007 He ruined it. "

His mind was made up in 2007, and has nothing to do with the incident in Barca.

Bloody opportunists.


I'm sorry guys, but I think you may be missing the bigger picture. And so is Fred. Perhaps the actions of a few cretins has been blown out of proportion. But it is what it is and we now have the FIA coming down hard. Maybe too hard. And there are a hell of a lot of fanatical Alonso supporters who may not be racists but are certainly convinced he was treated poorly by the FIA and McLaren. It's not going to be pretty if the race in Barcelona is yanked from the Calendar. Fernando's public condemnation of what happened would have been a strong statement to his fans and supporters that he disapproves of their actions. Without it, and with possible FIA action or sanctions looming, a lot of people may simply see this as more heavy haded behavior against "Spain" or against Alonso or simply going overboard in defense of Lewis.

I certainly won't presume that Alonso himself is a bigot. But I think it's entirely possible that there is so much bad blood between him and Lewis that he doesn't give a toss. But as a well known public figure he has a certain responsibility. And he should be able to see what's going on and be willing to do more. Bernie's comments last year about how Alonso, as a world champion, did absolutely nothing outside of his own interests, or words to that affect, are ringing in my ears.

#31 SlateGray

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:51

Originally posted by jaisli
And there are a hell of a lot of fanatical Alonso supporters who may not be racists but are certainly convinced he was treated poorly by the FIA and McLaren. .


You are sure that there are some Alonso supporters that may not be racists :rolleyes:

#32 lukywill

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:51

this whole thing is a opportunity for hamilton and mclaren to complain a bit more.

it´s a tempest in a cup of tea. not even the photographs about the incident (banners, etc) have nothing to do with color skin. i only saw (from yossi's u-tube) some people shouting in bad manners.

maybe deCesaris is right: a show with hamilton and alonso would do wonders. but it does fit. neither of them.
hamilton said it was a good thing that alonso went off mclaren. alonso has recently implied that hamilton was a lier.

and obviously - again i say it - alonso should never go and 'talk' to these people: that´s the trap of radicalism.

#33 SlateGray

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 16:06

Originally posted by lukywill
this whole thing is a opportunity for hamilton and mclaren to complain a bit more.

it´s a tempest in a cup of tea. not even the photographs about the incident (banners, etc) have nothing to do with color skin. i only saw (from yossi's u-tube) some people shouting in bad manners.

maybe deCesaris is right: a show with hamilton and alonso would do wonders. but it does fit. neither of them.
hamilton said it was a good thing that alonso went off mclaren. alonso has recently implied that hamilton was a lier.

and obviously - again i say it - alonso should never go and 'talk' to these people: that´s the trap of radicalism.


I think you are under informed, a few people in the stands where exhibiting disgusting racist behavior.

#34 jaisli

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 18:16

Originally posted by wj_gibson
I am always suspicious of "serial lurkers" as I tend to think they are really just extra avatars for existing contributors who can be used to prop up a particular point of view...


Just for the record, I am not NineOneSeven. If that's what you're trying to suggest.

#35 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 18:47

Originally posted by SlateGray


Please don't assume that you know what is in Fernando Alonso mind. The fact is you don't know, so please don't suggest that you do. It is sad that many of Alonso's detractors are using the actions of a few racist assholes to move their anti Alonso agenda forward.


You know, you are right. I do not know what is in his mind, but I have my own mind and make my own deductions. It's just how I was raised. You don't know what is on his mind either, so does that mean you can't argue against my position??

If someone is being associated with a particular very public action and makes no objection to it, IMO it is very likely that they have no problem with it.

#36 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 18:58

Originally posted by For sure

Agree entirely. No Alonso fan (not by a LONG way) but for some people to suggest he has somehow perpetuated the problem by not coming out and condemning (and thereby giving attention to) the racists or that he is otherwise allied to them is entirely out of order.

They are NOT being racist in Alonso's name. They might THINK they are, but they (I presume!!) do not have his blessing to carry on as they have been, and he should not be held in ANY way responsible for their actions.


I am not saying that Alonso is perpetuating the problem. He didn't start it or carry it out either. His non action is very telling IMO and is simply forming my opinion of him as a person. This moral negligence (as Ross put it) coupled with his questionable behaviour last year does not exactly make me warm to him as a person. Remember this is a judgment call and I believe I have enough evidence to make my conclusion.

Alonso may yet come out and make a statement that may or may not improve my position on him, but until then...

#37 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:09

Originally posted by F1Johnny
[B

Alonso may yet come out and make a statement that may or may not improve my position on him, but until then... [/B]


Has it ever occured to you that Fernando Alonso, or anyone else for that matter, might not give a continental fig as to your opinion of him?

#38 Group B

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:10

It really surprises me actually; Fred could have done himself and his country a real favour by making clear he didn't want that kind of supporter and found their behaviour unacceptable and offensive. I genuinely expected it to happen, even if, at worst, it was only a PR motivated exercise.

#39 SlateGray

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:16

Originally posted by F1Johnny


You know, you are right. I do not know what is in his mind, but I have my own mind and make my own deductions. It's just how I was raised. You don't know what is on his mind either, so does that mean you can't argue against my position??

If someone is being associated with a particular very public action and makes no objection to it, IMO it is very likely that they have no problem with it.


You are correct I have no idea of Alonso's point of view on this.
Unlike you, I assume someone is not a racist until I have clear evidence the he or she is a racist.
I totally agree that everyone has a right to their opinion even if that opinion is not supported in any with facts or evidence.

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#40 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:18

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Has it ever occured to you that Fernando Alonso, or anyone else for that matter, might not give a continental fig as to your opinion of him?


Always aware of that. I figure they don't care about any of what we all say here, but that's not why I post here. Is that why you post here? To send messages to the drivers and hope for their response?

#41 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:19

Originally posted by SlateGray


You are correct I have no idea of Alonso's point of view on this.
Unlike you, I assume someone is not a racist until I have clear evidence the he or she is a racist.
I totally agree that everyone has a right to their opinion even if that opinion is not supported in any with facts or evidence.


When did I say that Alonso was a racist?

#42 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:21

Originally posted by Group B
It really surprises me actually; Fred could have done himself and his country a real favour by making clear he didn't want that kind of supporter and found their behaviour unacceptable and offensive. I genuinely expected it to happen, even if, at worst, it was only a PR motivated exercise.


It surprises me as well. It would be so easy.

#43 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:36

The Spanish federation already did that.

It's surely better if it comes from the organising body for the entire country, rather than a single individual? That way, the federation takes responsibility for the presence of those offenders and can claim to make steps to ensure it is not repeated, something that is well beyond the powers of a single driver.

#44 SlateGray

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:37

Originally posted by F1Johnny
When did I say that Alonso was a racist?


You did not say it in so many words. But…

Originally posted by F1Johnny
But he clearly has no problem with racism being perpetrated in his honour or support.


To my mind someone who condones racism is a racist perhaps you don't see it that way, perhaps you feel a person can condone racism without themselves being racist.

Originally posted by F1Johnny
Remember this is a judgment call and I believe I have enough evidence to make my conclusion.


I beg to differ as there is no information whatever to base any decision on, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I am willing to assume Alonso is not a racist.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion.

#45 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:47

Originally posted by SlateGray

I beg to differ as there is no information whatever to base any decision on, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary I am willing to assume Alonso is not a racist.
Everyone has the right to their own opinion.


Fine. Your opinion. I also cannot conclude that Alonso is a racist, but I can conclude that I do not like his approach and it is serious enough a "moral negligence" in my view to warrant my forming a very negative opinion of him.

#46 SlateGray

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 19:53

Originally posted by F1Johnny


Fine. Your opinion. I also cannot conclude that Alonso is a racist, but I can conclude that I do not like his approach and it is serious enough a "moral negligence" in my view to warrant my forming a very negative opinion of him.


I feel the same way about people who make unsupported strongly negative judgments with racist overtones about the intent / position of others

#47 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 20:08

Originally posted by SlateGray


I feel the same way about people who make unsupported strongly negative judgments with racist overtones about the intent / position of others


OK. I am not here for you to like me SlateGray. I just put forward my opinion. You don't like it, tough. If you can present sufficient facts to change my opinion I will take them under consideration.

#48 SlateGray

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 20:19

Originally posted by F1Johnny


OK. I am not here for you to like me SlateGray. I just put forward my opinion. You don't like it, tough. If you can present sufficient facts to change my opinion I will take them under consideration.


So that would come down to the difference between

Innocent until proven guilty
or
Guilty until proven innocent

PS I don't dislike you, I very much respect you and enjoy reading your postings I just think you are jumping too conclusions because you don't like Fernando Alonso.

#49 beanoid

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 20:40

Just to add my own $.02 (worth less in the Euro Zone) :

F1 teams are enormously corporate entities. My guess would be that there was significant discussion regarding this situation in Renault's marketing camp, and likely all possible scenarios were written on a big white board with a bright orange pen.  ;) Perhaps the marketing brass at Renault decided it would be best for Fernando not to make a public statement, for whatever reason. (And believe me, I'm not defending them--just throwing out possibilities.)

You could certainly argue that Fernando didn't seem to give a damn about McLaren's marketing efforts last year, as he seemed to pop off to the press at the slightest opportunity. But he's in a different world now, and I'm guessing he'd rather not make any waves at this point with his new/old employers, especially not this early in the game.

I guess all I'm saying is, as with everything, this probably isn't as simple as Fernando making a conscious, independent decision regarding what he'd like to say or not say.

#50 F1Johnny

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Posted 07 February 2008 - 21:11

Originally posted by SlateGray


So that would come down to the difference between

Innocent until proven guilty
or
Guilty until proven innocent

PS I don't dislike you, I very much respect you and enjoy reading your postings I just think you are jumping too conclusions because you don't like Fernando Alonso.


Thing is we will all have different criteria for what triggers a guilty verdict. Your criteria will be far more broad and exhaustive than mine, as you are a fan of Alonso. I am not, but try to be objective and I find it difficult to find a reason for Alonso to be silent on such a serious matter. I said it earlier, it is so easy to make a simple statement. What bad will come of it? He may lose some Spanish fans, fans he shouldn't want to have IMO. I don't know, but it is very telling to me that he has chosen to remain quiet. I believe AFCA posted a quote from Trulli strongly denouncing it. I just could not sit by while my name was associated with such negative behaviour.

I don't dislike you either, far from it, and have every respect for your opinion. I also understand if you don't agree with my position. This board would not exist if we didn't disagree with each other at least sometimes.