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Finally, a CART / Indycar unification?


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#51 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 21:07

hate to piss on this thread, but:

Not so fast, talks at a standstill according to this article just in.

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#52 Ivan

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 21:13

ww,
We know this already.

#53 John Morrison

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 21:16

I like to know who's doing the leaking. They're still far away from the portal of inifinite.

#54 Buford

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 21:50

Originally posted by Zmeej
Relax, Bumper.

Don't see any of what you do in wwmII's post.

Otherwise, does this mean that Tony George's longstanding bout of dyspepsia is finally over? How thick a coat of financial Pepto-Bismol was applied? :p

Cue Buford. :cool:


My immediate thought is this is what I wanted all along. A compromise and return to racing. But it went on way to long to say bygones will be bygones. I still will never pay another dime to Tony George so if he is in charge I doubt I will ever go to another Indy Car type race. It will never be as good as it was in the early 1990s so why pay premium prices for a inferior product and reward the clown(s) that wrecked the sport due to their own greed and stupidity. But for those who are happy, I am glad you are. And for the sport to have any future at all if that is any way possible, something like this is essential. So if it happens a good day for racing. But I am done with it personally.

#55 shaggy

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 21:51

Soooooooo, people are happy b/c a total of 3 races from CC survive :down:
A week ago, it was 5 races, now it is down to only 3. Portland, RA and Mexico disappear ...... great :mad:

It will not be 26 cars on 20 tracks. Read other reports/rumors and you will see that the IRL may only be able to field 16 cars this season ... unless it sends extra checks to RLR. They may get 6 cars from CC, but only for this year. Next year, the smaller teams will die and we'll be back to struggling to get 18 cars.

I said it 3-4 years ago : it is back to CART '94, but with none of the fans.

A lot of IRL fans are angry about this, too. They are back to only 10-11 ovals and will now have to root for Ganassi/Penske/Andretti/NHL ... the little guy is gone. How many think that Walker, Coyne, Panther or Conquest will battle these guys ? IRL fans lose half of their tracks, CC fans lose half of their tracks (8-9 ovals and road circuits). Everybody loses, no one wins.

If no one watched Ganassi/Penske/Andretti at St. Pete or any other track, why would anyone watch Ganassi/Penske/Andretti/NHL at LB or any other track ? Everybody has been saying for years about how "if (insert team name or track here) moves over, it will be the spark," but all these things have already happened and the IRL keeps sinking. Now, we are told that if NHL and LB move over, people will start watching all the races they have refused to watch over the past 6 years. WHY ? Why would people do those things ?

If people don't watch Danica battle against Marco at Indy, why would they watch her battle against Montagny and Perera ? If Hornish and Rice winning Indy cannot help the IRL, how can Tagliani battle Servia help ????????????????

shaggy

#56 Buford

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 21:55

Originally posted by StickShift
Good thing they decided to end this before they did any real damage to the sport.


ROFL

#57 DLaw

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 22:13

C'mon Danica beating Tracy up? I like to watch that. ;)

#58 Imperial

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 22:16

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
hate to piss on this thread, but:

Not so fast, talks at a standstill according to this article just in.


I'm actually quite surprised at the stumbling-block story being as big as it is.

Maybe I'm being naive or am missing something, but Honda own Motegi, Honda are the only engine (at the moment!) in Indycar, Honda have already said without competition coming in they'll quit Indycar. I fail to see why they would screw the deal for the sake of a race at their own track that they could move to another date with relative ease.

And it's not like the season starts this weekend, there's a long time to go to make rearrangements.

Wow....all this could potentially unravel based around one race that may have to get moved. It's that versus yet another stupid season of CART races being moved, cancelled, "will it happen, won't it happen" etc.

#59 Imperial

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 22:21

Originally posted by Buford


My immediate thought is this is what I wanted all along. A compromise and return to racing. But it went on way to long to say bygones will be bygones. I still will never pay another dime to Tony George so if he is in charge I doubt I will ever go to another Indy Car type race. It will never be as good as it was in the early 1990s so why pay premium prices for a inferior product and reward the clown(s) that wrecked the sport due to their own greed and stupidity. But for those who are happy, I am glad you are. And for the sport to have any future at all if that is any way possible, something like this is essential. So if it happens a good day for racing. But I am done with it personally.


Come on man.

There's nothing better in this world than a man who's man enough to admit he was wrong, even if it's economically driven. Tony George is to all intents and purposes making an admission he was wrong by going it alone, by the sheer fact he's trying to bring it all back together.

Plain fact: he owns Indianapolis. He isn't going to give it up. CART knows this. Any merger was only ever going to happen this way: CART being absorbed by Indycars. Simple fact when Indycars has THE race.

You should never say never mate. Consider giving this merger, if it happens, a chance. 2008 will for sure be a building year and will inevitably have teething troubles, but it'll come out the other side into a much better 2009 and getting better and better in the immediate years after that.

In the not too distant future you may come to love what may be about to happen.

And as is the case with Tony George: Only a fool would refuse to ever change his mind.

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#60 scdecade

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 22:27

As someone who was as big an Indy car fan as ever existed, I would've thought news of a possible reconciliation would've excited me. But it didn't. I feel nothing. Perhaps the two parties get together and perhaps they do not. If they do get together and the combination is nothing more than a warmed over IRL formula then I'm still not caring. The IRL is a failed formula. CC is a variation on a successful formula but with too many boost buttons and tire colors and nonsense...

Here's what I want:

1) Engine diversity (remember Toyota, Ford, Honda, and Mercedes?)
2) Chassis diversity (remember Reynard, Lola, Eagle, Swift?)
3) Chassis setup ingenuity (remember when downforce/drag tradeoff was unregulated?)
4) The Indy 500 traditions restored! (remember the "month of May?")
5) A complete renunciation of the IRL's xenophic "we're for 'mericans but that don't mean we ain't allowing for-ners so we ain't 'gainst nobody." That bucktooth bubba BS should be apologized for IMO)

That Tony George's last desperate gasp for relevancy still involves the dreg remnants of CART proves what an abject failure the IRL was, is, and will always be. As long as he's part of the "solution" (to the problems he caused) then it's difficult to see how AOWR can attain its former strength. He should recuse himself for the good of the sport.

#61 xflow7

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 22:37

Kalkhoven's "it can't happen if people are talking about it" line is getting really tiresome. Racing is too inbred for there ever to be a completely secret negotiation all the way to announcement. With the exception of JPM to Ganassi's NASCAR team I'm not sure I can think of a single example of a truly surprise announcement.

Take the fact that everyone goes apeshit over this every time as the hint that it is. You guys HAVE to get this done.

Edit: And by the way, if the media coverage is such a hindrance why are both KK and George on the record about it this time?

#62 Buford

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 22:47

Originally posted by Imperial


Come on man.

There's nothing better in this world than a man who's man enough to admit he was wrong, even if it's economically driven. Tony George is to all intents and purposes making an admission he was wrong by going it alone, by the sheer fact he's trying to bring it all back together.

Plain fact: he owns Indianapolis. He isn't going to give it up. CART knows this. Any merger was only ever going to happen this way: CART being absorbed by Indycars. Simple fact when Indycars has THE race.

You should never say never mate. Consider giving this merger, if it happens, a chance. 2008 will for sure be a building year and will inevitably have teething troubles, but it'll come out the other side into a much better 2009 and getting better and better in the immediate years after that.

In the not too distant future you may come to love what may be about to happen.

And as is the case with Tony George: Only a fool would refuse to ever change his mind.



The vast majority of the fans of Indy Car racing that existed in 1995 never have attended a single IRL race nor watch the IRL on TV as the ratings that have dropped from 2's and 3's for non Indy races to 1 or under prove. The vast majority of the all time record fan base of the early 1990s totally rejected Tony George and his con job series from the beginning and never returned since. Some stayed with CART for a few years before switching interest to Nascar or something else, or dying out. They were replaced by nobody. Champ Car got only a tiny fraction of the pre-IRL Indy Car fans and the IRL lost at least 2/3 of the pre-1995 fan base and didn't find the huge base of disaffected oval track fans they thought existed to replace them. That was a myth that they existed in the first place.

So the point is... losing me is irrelevant. They lost 2/3 (more like 3/4) of the fans along with me and I really doubt they are coming back. However where this deal is good for the sport, essential to the future of the sport if it happens is it does give a ray of hope that over time, probably 20 years, a single series can attract new fans from the young. The old are gone. 2/3 to 3/4 of us will never support anything run by Tony George as we have proven for 12 years. No not internet "haters" who are vocal. A huge mass of millions who left the sport in disgust without posting on internet forums. I don't see them coming back at this late date. Maybe in 1989 when TG nixed the previous deal it could have happened but not now. But there is hope for the sport for the future. Go get the young who don't know Tony George is the most hated man in the history of auto racing. Shine this turd up and make it fun and exciting again and there is hope.

#63 shaggy

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 23:06

Originally posted by Imperial


... 2008 will for sure be a building year and will inevitably have teething troubles, but it'll come out the other side into a much better 2009 and getting better and better in the immediate years after that....

What makes you say that ? Let's see, TG already took :

1. CART's teams
2. CART's drivers
3. CART's engine manufacturers
4. Some of CART's tracks

And he has done NOTHING with it. And he has Indy on top of all that !

Are you saying that if he now takes 3 of CC's tracks and, maybe, 3 of its teams, then the future will be bright for the IRL ?

What can NHL and GF do for the IRL that no one else could ? What can LB do that Indy could not do ? What can Perera do that Danica and Hornish together could not do ?

Sadly, you have been offered snake oil and you, along with RM and a whole bunch of others, have fallen for it. But, it makes you happy, so go ahead and enjoy it.

shaggy

#64 Bumper

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 23:41

Originally posted by Zmeej
Bumper

So, you're tired of "old, bitter, diatribes" from people who know what they're talking about, and yet ready to countenance shit like this ...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looks like Toronto, one of the most sucessful venues, will be dropped from the combined schedule. Shame.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

... without batting an eyelash, eh?

Tells me all I need to know, buddy. :down:


Well maybe someone needs telling you as you seem to have very little clue. Where did I 'countenance' Toronto? Quote me, or take back that shit. I love Toronto, it was my first CART race actually, and one of my favourite memories of CART. I'm disappointed it's off the list, but also realise it may be back on in a couple of years. And oh, I value Buford's opinion far more than your pedantry any day tbh.

#65 Imperial

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 23:53

Originally posted by shaggy

What makes you say that ? Let's see, TG already took :

1. CART's teams
2. CART's drivers
3. CART's engine manufacturers
4. Some of CART's tracks

And he has done NOTHING with it. And he has Indy on top of all that !

Are you saying that if he now takes 3 of CC's tracks and, maybe, 3 of its teams, then the future will be bright for the IRL ?

What can NHL and GF do for the IRL that no one else could ? What can LB do that Indy could not do ? What can Perera do that Danica and Hornish together could not do ?

Sadly, you have been offered snake oil and you, along with RM and a whole bunch of others, have fallen for it. But, it makes you happy, so go ahead and enjoy it.

shaggy


What he would be doing is taking two series that run on a similar ethos (regardless of the debate of how many ovals Vs how many street circuits Vs how many road circuits etc in any given season) and putting out one series with the best of both worlds in that one series.

I was the biggest CC fan on the planet pretty much up to the about a season after Montoya left, it's been going rapidly downhill since then. Indycar meanwhile has gone up. Not a lot mind, but gone up nevertheless.

As it happens though for the past three seasons (as a TV viewer in the UK) I have favoured Indycar over CC everytime. Does that mean I pledge my allegiance to Indycar over CC?

Not at all. There's not enough time in the day or money in the life of most fans, including me, to either watch or attend races from both series and when they run to more or less the same principles there seems little point in doing so either.

I would much prefer to have one series, that's all. The story of which of the two series is the best currently is entirely subjective and I'm not going to get into that debate because for me it isn't a debate. They're both currently piss-poor versions of what they could be as one series. It's that simple for me.

Whilst I will concede (without actually favouring Indycar anyway) that Indycar has some tedious circuits and races, I will also take you up on the points you made by stating:

There's probably very few CC tracks worth taking.
There's virtually no teams except NHL and one or two others worth taking anyway.
There's almost none of the CC drivers would add any particular value to the Indycar field, which itself is pretty weak anyway, especially after Franchitti and Hornish's departures.

Far from falling for snake oil and confidence tricksters, I have on the contrary seen a glimpse of something I have wanted to happen for many years. I'm very happy.

Am I happy it's CC that's getting kicked into the ground and swallowed up by Indycar, rather than the other way around? No.

Am I happy that US single-seaters looks like picking it's sorry deflated arse up from off the floor, dusting itself down and getting it's shit together at last? Yes. Very much so.

I don't know entirely where you are on this issue, but there is a large amount of CC fans who seem to be basically pissed off on this story basically because it's CC that's going to close it's door and not Indycar. That's all I see.

Everyone else is really happy. (If it even happens!)

#66 aportinga

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 00:16

Originally posted by qwazy
The only thing I'm not super happy about is the fact that the Panoz is getting dumped.


My take is that the chassis regs need to be open to allow for the Panoz, Reynard and Lola along with the Dallara - so long as they pass saftey specs. This way the CC teams will save money on an investment they just made last year. They'll also be on top of the game on road courses because they won't have to play catch up with the Dallaras on set ups. Furthermore by allowing the older Reynards and Lolas we may ecourage teams that cannot afford to pony up, the ability to buy an older chassis and run - shit we could run 2 classes even - if the Reynards and Lolas were actually that slow.

Engine regs also need to be opened. Despite Honda's willingness to give away free engines, we all know what can happen when a series hangs it's hat on a Japanese manufacture. Again here the IRL should allow for the same rules regarding engines which have been set for the Indy500 for years - which in effect allows for multiple configurations, only this would be enabled for the entire season.

Again the CC teams would save money on R&D (not having to test out a Dallara). They would at least have an advantage on the road courses where the IRL clowns would have the edge on the ovals - over all leveling the playing field. This would also perhaps allow KK to make some cash (since he owns Cosworth) and possibly be a good back up if Honda decides to ever leave.

Collectively this provides for the best reason - diversity :up:

#67 aportinga

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 00:17

Originally posted by StickShift
Good thing they decided to end this before they did any real damage to the sport.


Until the deal is signed I call BS....

#68 aportinga

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 00:20

Originally posted by Buford


My immediate thought is this is what I wanted all along. A compromise and return to racing. But it went on way to long to say bygones will be bygones. I still will never pay another dime to Tony George so if he is in charge I doubt I will ever go to another Indy Car type race. It will never be as good as it was in the early 1990s so why pay premium prices for a inferior product and reward the clown(s) that wrecked the sport due to their own greed and stupidity. But for those who are happy, I am glad you are. And for the sport to have any future at all if that is any way possible, something like this is essential. So if it happens a good day for racing. But I am done with it personally.


I'd spring fer ya.

But were getin loaded!

#69 aportinga

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 00:36

Talks are valid - Talks spun out when Motegi and Long Beach clashed - KK released a statement that they are talking, not with standing the comments of holding this in the public eye, he confirmed that they are stalled.

Tony George and 2 other officials from the IRL are flying out to Japan to see if they can work a deal with Honda which owns Motegi.

This confirms that there is a deal in place and that it hinges on Motegi - so we'll see what happens there. PERSONALLY if Honda refuses I think the best resolve is to run out the remainder of the 08 season with Honda and skip Motegi altogether. Bring in Cosworth for 2009. However if Honda's presence hinges on Motegi, show them the door now and bring in Cosworth. From what I understood 2 years ago, the Cosi and Honda are interchangable.

#70 Buford

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 00:46

Originally posted by aportinga


I'd spring fer ya.

But were getin loaded!


Lets get loaded and NOT pay any money to Tony George. That would be better.

#71 ehagar

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 01:06

Originally posted by metz


Steelback may be the problem. They are only slightly larger than King Brewery.


Steelback is in bankruptcy protection, they currently owe over 120 million dollars:

http://www.reportonb...y/Business/home

#72 Zmeej

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 02:07

Bumper :up:

And oh, I value Buford's opinion far more than your pedantry any day tbh.

You're a man after my own heart. :cool:

If you find that confusing, don't worry. After all, it proves that any time you think you know all you need to know, there's always more to know. Take it from me. :smoking:

#73 Mark A

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 02:44

Originally posted by Imperial

Maybe I'm being naive or am missing something, but Honda own Motegi, Honda are the only engine (at the moment!) in Indycar, Honda have already said without competition coming in they'll quit Indycar. I fail to see why they would screw the deal for the sake of a race at their own track that they could move to another date with relative ease.


Why do you automatically assume that they can move the Motegi date easily? Motegi is a busy race circuit just like any other. They have already offered to move it back a week but that clashes with Kansas and they refused, why can't Kansas easily move their date?

Sorry but an international race circuit has a very busy calender throughout the year and once all the dates are set in around Dec/jan there is very little scope to move things around more than a week.

The other offer on the table is to move the race to the autumn, which may be possible as circuits get quieter again but there is a contract which says the finale is at Chicagoland, so the Motegi race would be non-championship, so the only engine supplier in the series has their home race as a meaningless non-championship event, Honda would never accept that, and I can fully understand the sentiments.

They need to be very careful not to piss off Honda or the whole series could end up being screwed.

They need to wait until 2009 for the merger, or has TG suddenly realised the IRL has no cars this year as someone has posted previously in this thread?

#74 former champ

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 03:19

we can only hope this all comes together. I still miss the old days of CART. :up:

#75 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 03:49

Originally posted by Buford


Lets get loaded and NOT pay any money to Tony George. That would be better.

I'm in. :smoking:
If Laguna Seca remains on the schedule, sounds like a perfect place for it.


#76 shaggy

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 04:13

Originally posted by Imperial


What he would be doing is taking two series that run on a similar ethos (regardless of the debate of how many ovals Vs how many street circuits Vs how many road circuits etc in any given season) and putting out one series with the best of both worlds in that one series.

Whilst I will concede (without actually favouring Indycar anyway) that Indycar has some tedious circuits and races, I will also take you up on the points you made by stating:

There's probably very few CC tracks worth taking.
There's virtually no teams except NHL and one or two others worth taking anyway.
There's almost none of the CC drivers would add any particular value to the Indycar field, which itself is pretty weak anyway, especially after Franchitti and Hornish's departures.

Far from falling for snake oil and confidence tricksters, I have on the contrary seen a glimpse of something I have wanted to happen for many years. I'm very happy.

I don't know entirely where you are on this issue, but there is a large amount of CC fans who seem to be basically pissed off on this story basically because it's CC that's going to close it's door and not Indycar. That's all I see.

Everyone else is really happy. (If it even happens!)

I have said it before : I hate ovals.
Even during CART, I never watched a whole or even half of an oval race (not even Indy). I don't mean to offend anyone, I just find oval racing to be boring.

So, my take on this is that I go from 14-16 road/street races to only 8-9. I lose Cleveland, Portland, RA and Mexico and will get, in return, Iowa, Kansas, Homestead and Richmond. To me, that is big :down:
Iowa ? IOWA ????????????????????????????????? !!!

Now, if you are happy, great. But it does not help me one bit.
My point stands : if CC has so little to offer, as you admit, then how will this merger help OW ?

My gut feeling is this : TG made this offer b/c he is in trouble and needs to save face. Either he does this, in order to calm Honda and ABC, or else he goes back to footing the bill all alone, as he used to do in the past.

TG has lost the majority of OW's previous fans and has not made any new fans. Why does anyone believe that this merger is going to save OW ?

shaggy

#77 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 06:18

Originally posted by shaggy

I have said it before : I hate ovals.
Even during CART, I never watched a whole or even half of an oval race (not even Indy). I don't mean to offend anyone, I just find oval racing to be boring.

shaggy

Call me a fool then, Phoenix is great as an oval, so is Milwaukee. Cleveland will still be there, don't worry, it's always been a good race and it's in FTG's beloved mid west market. Mexico will still be there too, thats Forsythe's deal and he is intregal to this deal. It makes sense to Honda, and any other makes as well. Honda has backed Fernandez forever who is no doubt THE Mexican influence in USOW, and there are definitely deep pocket sponsors in Mexico for OW racing. If this deal gets off the ground, you'll be seeing a series that has about half ovals, if that.
Pure oval racing will never cut it, and that's the biggest capitulation by FTG I see.
His all oval 'vision' is dead, buried and never to be resurrected. That will go over big with the short track brethren he thought would be his backbone, I'm sure.


#78 rye&ginger

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 07:26

Good news. I was a CC/Indycar nut in the early 90s. I was so disapointed with the split I rarely watched and now never watch OW racing other than F1, which has replaced CC.

This will take time to grow again. IMO the market is there, Nascar does not have the same appeal IMO. CC races were well attended at its peak, with many road races rather than ovals. The big oval races are fine, but there cant be too many.

Re: Toronto, I live there and Steelback is toast as a sponsor. Im not sure who would step up. Molson's balls are owned by Coors now, and that essentially killed everything.

#79 Andretti Fan

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 07:39

TG is only gonna have to provide cars and engines for maybe 4 or 5 teams at most. The rest probably won't even try to continue, or won't be able to for financial reasons. Hopefully however, some of the CC teams may be able to attract at least a little additional sponsorship from being able to race at Indy this year.

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#80 Imperial

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 08:37

Originally posted by Mark A


Why do you automatically assume that they can move the Motegi date easily?


Because Honda own the track and have previously expressed a wish to have some competition in Indycar.

#81 Imperial

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 08:51

Originally posted by shaggy
My point stands : if CC has so little to offer, as you admit, then how will this merger help OW ?


I thought it was fairly obvious that the major benefit is that there is one series and people won't be confused, disinterested in both and/or too lazy to watch both.

Look at Moto GP and World Superbikes. Two rival series. I am a casual viewer of motorbike racing, but when I do tune in I opt for Moto GP. I have never watched a World Superbikes race in my life. It may be better than Moto GP for all I know, but I don't have the time or interest to find out. How can someone explain to me the benefit of World Superbikes existence?

Originally posted by shaggy
I just find oval racing to be boring.


That statement really stood out for me.

Have you been watching CC for a long time or just for the past few years?

I may be completely wrong but that comment makes it sound like for just a few years, when CC has had no or virtually no ovals on the calendar. The (if I remember correctly) sometimes 20+ race calendar of CART with it's amazing blend of ovals, superspeedways and road and street circuits was what made it an absolute winning formula, even more interesting than F1. It would just come as a surprise to find a long term CART fan say they don't like ovals.

If then you are a relatively new follower of CC perhaps you have different feelings to others.

That's my assumption of course, I reserve the right to be incorrect! ;-)

#82 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 10:58

I don't find oval racing to be boring :cool:
Ex oval track racer [ even if it was a little 1/4 mile bull ring in a sprint car ]

#83 Mark A

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 13:57

Originally posted by Imperial


Because Honda own the track and have previously expressed a wish to have some competition in Indycar.


Again the question arises, So what?

The annual schedules at any circuit are usually set in the previous November or December, therefore to just say you will move a race a month or so isn't generally possible, no matter who owns the circuit. What about the other series that use the circuit, are they just to be told to change their schedules?

#84 Imperial

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 14:51

Originally posted by Mark A


Again the question arises, So what?

The annual schedules at any circuit are usually set in the previous November or December, therefore to just say you will move a race a month or so isn't generally possible, no matter who owns the circuit. What about the other series that use the circuit, are they just to be told to change their schedules?


Let's wait and see I guess. Honda own the track and have a mammoth vested interest in Indycars. Their track, they can do what they like with it.

#85 aportinga

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 15:06

Originally posted by Buford


Lets get loaded and NOT pay any money to Tony George. That would be better.


:up:

#86 jondoe955

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 15:15

Yeah, congrats, for the good of the sport, it had to happen - and about time...

I hate the irl, ovals, Dallara tubs, FTG... yet last year I watched more irl than Cart, who had the dullest racing out there.

But this doesn't feel like a compromise - more like capitulation on Champ's part. What would be the difference if Cart had declared bankruptcy? Their best teams would have crossed and the 2nd tier would have packed their tents. TG would have cherry-picked the best venues, Honda would still provide the engines, the chassis would still be ugly tubs.

And just like few Cart tracks would make the cut, most of the irl teams will stay. Who but the best funded Cart teams will be allowed entry?

And how can they make the switch so fast? What about the contracts? Who loses all their investments, like the Panoz/tools/tooling/investments???

We'd all like to see the return of 1996. We'd like to see Nascar crawl back into its hole. I believe things will turn out for the better in the long run. Once the shock subsides, we may have a better series - but that ain't saying much! We all win. Unfortunately, TG is the victor.

The upside? We can go back to saying Indycar, and it will mean only one thing.

#87 CWeil

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 15:23

Originally posted by scotchman
Too right!

The Indycar chassis are far from the prettiest cars on the planet.

I would say stick with the Panoz DP01, it's a FAR better looking machine, but that might open up an argument that totally scuppers any chance of this new agreement going ahead! :drunk:


Unfortunately the Panoz wasn't designed for high speed ovals, so it's not going to be the safe choice between the two. They're pretty much required to run the Indycar Lola, unless they decide to use the Panoz for street races...but that neither makes much sense nor is it likely that Panoz can come up with another 35 cars in the next couple weeks.

#88 ingegnere

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 16:09

Originally posted by CWeil


Unfortunately the Panoz wasn't designed for high speed ovals, so it's not going to be the safe choice between the two. They're pretty much required to run the Indycar Lola, unless they decide to use the Panoz for street races...but that neither makes much sense nor is it likely that Panoz can come up with another 35 cars in the next couple weeks.


Those are Dallaras BTW. Anyway, Panoz (G-Force) was already making IRL cars, though more and more teams moved to Dallara and Panoz abandoned IRL.

Certainly, the IRL rules make for not so pretty cars, regardless of who builds them. Don't know how well the current Panoz would work with normally aspirated (and snorkel-fed) Honda, not very well I would guess.

#89 Burai

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 16:23

Originally posted by jondoe955
Yeah, congrats, for the good of the sport, it had to happen - and about time...

I hate the irl, ovals, Dallara tubs, FTG... yet last year I watched more irl than Cart, who had the dullest racing out there.

But this doesn't feel like a compromise - more like capitulation on Champ's part. What would be the difference if Cart had declared bankruptcy? Their best teams would have crossed and the 2nd tier would have packed their tents. TG would have cherry-picked the best venues, Honda would still provide the engines, the chassis would still be ugly tubs.

And just like few Cart tracks would make the cut, most of the irl teams will stay. Who but the best funded Cart teams will be allowed entry?

And how can they make the switch so fast? What about the contracts? Who loses all their investments, like the Panoz/tools/tooling/investments???

We'd all like to see the return of 1996. We'd like to see Nascar crawl back into its hole. I believe things will turn out for the better in the long run. Once the shock subsides, we may have a better series - but that ain't saying much! We all win. Unfortunately, TG is the victor.

The upside? We can go back to saying Indycar, and it will mean only one thing.


The big difference is that the smaller teams have a far, far better chance of being able to make the jump and surviving if they get the TEAM package that's been mooted than they would if they just carried on, spending money on a 2008 CCWS season that could end up cancelled at any minute.

Plus as a united front, the package seems a hell of a lot stronger to prospective team owners, sponsors and circuit owners.

As for the Panoz situation, don't count them out just yet. The teams have to use the Dallara because it's the only car suitable for every track on both schedules and the only one available in the sort of numbers needed. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a DP01b/DP02 as the IndyCar World Series car for 2009.

There really is no way you could construe this merger as bad news. The fact is that if we carry on as we are, Champ Car will be dead by the end of the year anyway. These races we're "losing" to the ovals are going to be lost anyway, regardless of what happens.

But what we will have is a far stronger, united front that gives open wheel racing the half-chance that it just doesn't have as things are right now.

#90 shaggy

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 16:33

Originally posted by Imperial


I thought it was fairly obvious that the major benefit is that there is one series and people won't be confused, disinterested in both and/or too lazy to watch both.

Look at Moto GP and World Superbikes. Two rival series. I am a casual viewer of motorbike racing, but when I do tune in I opt for Moto GP. I have never watched a World Superbikes race in my life. It may be better than Moto GP for all I know, but I don't have the time or interest to find out. How can someone explain to me the benefit of World Superbikes existence?

That statement really stood out for me.

Have you been watching CC for a long time or just for the past few years?

I may be completely wrong but that comment makes it sound like for just a few years, when CC has had no or virtually no ovals on the calendar. The (if I remember correctly) sometimes 20+ race calendar of CART with it's amazing blend of ovals, superspeedways and road and street circuits was what made it an absolute winning formula, even more interesting than F1. It would just come as a surprise to find a long term CART fan say they don't like ovals.

If then you are a relatively new follower of CC perhaps you have different feelings to others.

That's my assumption of course, I reserve the right to be incorrect! ;-)

I've been watching it since the late 80s, but only a few races back then. Even in the 90's, I'd only watch the road and street races. I'd watch the beginning of an oval race and, if I was around, I'd watch the end of it. I'd skip the rest.

I just don't believe this "confusion" excuse. I think what kept CART alive was the whole package; but, when TG destroyed that package, the house came tumbling down. Now people just want to recreate that package w/o realizing that the demographics and the tv market have changed. It won't be that easy and I don't think it can be done.

shaggy

#91 David M. Kane

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 16:33

Hey the IRL isn't that much better off than CC, they need each other just as desperately as ids humanly possible.

#92 ehagar

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 17:11

Originally posted by Imperial


Look at Moto GP and World Superbikes. Two rival series. I am a casual viewer of motorbike racing, but when I do tune in I opt for Moto GP. I have never watched a World Superbikes race in my life. It may be better than Moto GP for all I know, but I don't have the time or interest to find out. How can someone explain to me the benefit of World Superbikes existence?


You picked a bad example. World Superbikes has a place and it is a successful in a business and sporting sense. It has market appeal because it is based off the bikes that people buy (the degree of modification depends on the rules at the National or World Level governing body). So in a blunt manner of speaking, its like comparing Prototype cars versus production Sports cars, only the difference in performance with bikes is marginal.

In fact, back in the days between 500s versus WSBK, I would argue that it was World Superbikes that was gaining the upper hand and the old two strokes were dying. 2 strokes were becoming irrelevant (sadly IMHO) and the FIM had to change their top class. Is MotoGP the right formula right now? Right now it is very dependent on the manufacturers and independents can't survive on their own. Roberts looks like he is done. Sito Pons is out... and he shouldn't have had to leave. He ran a competitive ship. THe problem is the sponsorship dollars don't match the costs... but WSBK has a formula that can be in theory manufacturer independent.

I used to love the old Indycar because the racing was absolutely fantastic. When the split emerged I stuck with CART because it had the names, sponsors, and (IMO) great racing. That gradually eroded away for a number of reasons which people have kicked around. I eventually stopped watching. I tuned into the 500 for maybe the last 30 minutes while I spent most of my day outside. They lost me. I'm interested to see who wins a race but I sure as hell won't sit down and watch one. There are better races to watch than that and it isn't worth my time any more.

Both series are dead in my eyes and the sooner they can merge and get on with business the better.

#93 Bloggsworth

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 18:03

How's Paul Tracey going to take being beaten by Danica Patrick....................

#94 CWeil

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 18:43

Originally posted by ingegnere


Those are Dallaras BTW.


Yeah yeah, sorry!

#95 bear

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 18:59

No Toronto race but a race in Edmonton? hmm

mark

#96 Imperial

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 19:13

Originally posted by ehagar


You picked a bad example. World Superbikes has a place and it is a successful in a business and sporting sense. It has market appeal because it is based off the bikes that people buy (the degree of modification depends on the rules at the National or World Level governing body). So in a blunt manner of speaking, its like comparing Prototype cars versus production Sports cars, only the difference in performance with bikes is marginal.

In fact, back in the days between 500s versus WSBK, I would argue that it was World Superbikes that was gaining the upper hand and the old two strokes were dying. 2 strokes were becoming irrelevant (sadly IMHO) and the FIM had to change their top class. Is MotoGP the right formula right now? Right now it is very dependent on the manufacturers and independents can't survive on their own. Roberts looks like he is done. Sito Pons is out... and he shouldn't have had to leave. He ran a competitive ship. THe problem is the sponsorship dollars don't match the costs... but WSBK has a formula that can be in theory manufacturer independent.


ehagar, your very excellent and in depth answer above has ironically proved my Moto GP/World Superbikes anaology to have been one of the best examples I could have chosen.

My point is that they seem to be direct competitors, drivers sometimes interchange between the two, both have their own tv show and audience and to all intents and purposes to the casual viewer like me they seem to be the same thing.

That is actually bad news for both series, because one of them has to lose out. You can't watch both at the same time (live at least) if they have races running simultaneously.

The same goes for F1 and Moto GP (my motorbike racing of choice, if I watch either of the bike series). F1 and Moto GP and World Superbikes frequently clash in the tv schedules. It's no choice at all for me as I am primarily an autosport fan, so it's F1 everytime. On those weekends where F1 and Moto GP/World Superbikes do not clash then I choose to watch Moto GP.

Why? Because I know for sure it has at least a handful of extremely entertaining riders participating. World Superbikes may also have the same, but I've never seen it because I always opt for Moto GP (and to be honest recordings or re-runs of races of any kind don't generate much excitement).

Do you see where I'm going with this and what I'm getting at?

If there was only one top-level motorbike series then all of the tracks, teams, drivers and sponsors involved in both series would have 100% of my attention when I watch their races. As it stands they only get 50% because I'm only watching one of those series, not both.

#97 ehagar

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 19:52

And once again I disagree. You can't really compare...

Properly run, the Superbike formula can be relatively cheap. A few hundred grand for a bikes versus several million for a lease on a bike. One series you can go to the store, buy a bike, aftermarket parts (or make your own) and go.

The other you have to beg to a factory to get them to agree to sell you the bike. Then they may tell you which rider you can take. Etc, etc. Then there is the sponsorship problem... there aren't enough sponsors out there willing to cover the costs. The value for money in MotoGP is way better than F1, but sponsors would rather be a minor associate sponsor for a F1 team versus the primary sponsor of a MotoGP team.

They have existed as seperate entities for over 20 years and both series are doing just fine (my complaining about costs of MotoGP aside, the sky isn't falling!).

As for audience share, while they can have the same people watching both series, there are a sizeable number that are not watching both. In the 90s Fogarty really boosted the popularity of WSBK and there were great stories of battles versus the dreaded Yanks of Kocinski & Russell. There was a darth of competitive Brits in 500s. It essentially filled a vacuum that existed and the series enjoyed a surge of popularity.

That you chose not to watch WSBK is your loss. IMO it was a better product last year than MotoGP. But these things swing back and forth. 2006 I enjoyed MotoGP more than WSBK. I consider myself lucky to have both series to watch.

Should the FIM nuke the world Motocross championship because the American series is fundementally better? Hmmm....

I don't see how this compares to Champcar and IRL. They have both been in decline for a long time. WSBK & MotoGP are doing fine. Different situation.

#98 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 21:26

To me as an outsider from NZ with a interest in all forms of open wheel racing it make sense to have one series in " Champ Car" or "IRL" or what ever you call it in North America.I would like to see a mix of "circuit" and "oval" races. The winner could as in the past say "I am the American Champion" and one would not have to ask "Of what"!!
I have observed over the years [ competitor 1962 -2000 ] that too many racing series just waters down the racing [ less dollars, cars, etc. ]

#99 VresiBerba

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 21:38

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
anyone want two tickets to Long Beach? If what I bought is watching those ugly ass irl sleds, then I'm asking for a refund and crossing LB off my calendar.

Oh, so now it's down to esthetics, again, Ehh? Never mind an American open-wheel series that's actually competitive, a starting grid with more than 17 cars, if lucky, with maybe one or two competitive teams, perhaps even three. Oh nooo..... the cars are UGLY :eek: :drunk: :rolleyes: Oh my!

Now where did I hear this before? Oh now it's coming back to me; grooved tyres are ugly, I'll never watch Formula 1 again!11!!11! FMM (**** Max Mosley) !!1!!1!!!1 Jesus christ, grow the **** up for crying out loud!

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#100 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 22:09

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Oh, so now it's down to esthetics, again, Ehh? Never mind an American open-wheel series that's actually competitive, a starting grid with more than 17 cars, if lucky, with maybe one or two competitive teams, perhaps even three. Oh nooo..... the cars are UGLY :eek: :drunk: :rolleyes: Oh my!

Now where did I hear this before? Oh now it's coming back to me; grooved tyres are ugly, I'll never watch Formula 1 again!11!!11! FMM (**** Max Mosley) !!1!!1!!!1 Jesus christ, grow the **** up for crying out loud!


I suppose that if you bought tickets to see the Rolling Stones and then at the last moment they switch the act to the Spice Girls you'd be OK with that?