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No contest for championship?


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#51 woftam

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


And technically by finding even 1 copied thing they should have been chucked out of F1, they had been found guilty and fined and yet they still used the Ferrari info, they got off unbelievably lightly.


If we used that philosophy there would be no teams left to compete I'm sure.
They got hit hard. Massive fine - no constructor points and in the end justice was done for the drivers title.
Admittedly not due to FIA intervention.

Back on topic - I think Ferrari will walk it this year.

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#52 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by F1Obsession


Like I said, they never copied it. The systems were similar. In F1 several engineers can come to the same solution independently. They found no evidence that it was copied. McLaren have voluntarily suspended those projects.

Anyway, I wonder what you have to say about Ferrari breaking into Williams garage.


http://forums.autosp...211#post3012211

Did you not ever read the FIA report about the MP-23 that led to the apology from Mclaren?

#53 F1Obsession

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:29

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


http://forums.autosp...211#post3012211

Did you not ever read the FIA report about the MP-23 that led to the apology from Mclaren?


http://news.bbc.co.u...one/7143149.stm

"The FIA's response came after McLaren said they would freeze development of three aspects of their 2008 design which may have been derived from the Ferrari document.

The FIA's investigation into the design of the 2008 McLaren concluded that the team were planning to use systems which "appear to have been developed by McLaren as a result of the receipt of confidential Ferrari information". "

Key words: "may have been", "appear to have". i.e. no conclusive proof.

So I still have to hear what you think about Ferrari breaking into Williams garage. Or are you going to pretend it never happened?

#54 Matt Hughes

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:30

Originally posted by HP


I agree with you on the matter with Ferrari being wronged last year. But if you cannot fathom why many people are pro-Ferrari, or more accurate passionate about their team or driver, then it just tells about you, not about the Ferrari or his fans..

It's Ok to not be passionate about things, if that holds true for you, but a lot of Ferrari fans are (and in other teams it's the same) and we're Ok as well. Thumbs up for diversity. We'd be bored if everybody agrees on everything. I'm not on par with most things about McLaren, but the long term McLaren posters on this board are IMO quite a good sport.


Oh yes, I agree and I completely understand the passion for Ferrari in particular given their history. Having watched Formula One for over 20 years now I think I've 'got it';).

Still, there's a line between passionately supporting your team and randomly spouting rubbish or taking a holier-than-thou attitude. If people fancy criticising McLaren then I'm all for a debate, likewise Ferrari or anyone. Problem is, I think sometimes here a small percentage of people confuse an opportunity to debate for an opportunity to spout fanboy nonsense.

#55 Chiara

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:32

Originally posted by F1Obsession


Like I said, they never copied it. The systems were similar. In F1 several engineers can come to the same solution independently. They found no evidence that it was copied. McLaren have voluntarily suspended those projects.

Anyway, I wonder what you have to say about Ferrari breaking into Williams garage.


Firstly, nobody here can say with any certainty whether McLaren copied it or not from the information they received via Stepney. Why? because none of us work for McLaren, only those within the team will ever know where exactly they got their inspiration for these 'similar systems'. The FIA technical report concluded that it was likely they had copied 3 systems from the Ferrari information.

Yes it is entirely possible they had been working on similar systems already themselves, but it could be just as likely Coughlan could have piped up over lunch "hey I've got a fantastic idea for our car why don't we do x, y and z?" and they could have set to work on the project none the wiser where that particular idea came from, or they could have knowingly copied the idea from the information they received.

Teams in F1 quite often copy each other knowingly. They send their engineers and senior technical staff off down the pitlane and grid formation to "study" each others cars for any new ideas and to see what the opposition are upto.

It's a bit daft for us to sit here saying oh my team would never do something like that, when history in the sport has shown they all blooming well do, it's part of the game.

#56 F1Obsession

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:34

Originally posted by Chiara


Firstly, nobody here can say with any certainty whether McLaren copied it or not from the information they received via Stepney. Why? because none of us work for McLaren, only those within the team will ever know where exactly they got their inspiration for these 'similar systems'. The FIA technical report concluded that it was likely they had copied 3 systems from the Ferrari information.

Yes it is entirely possible they had been working on similar systems already themselves, but it could be just as likely Coughlan could have piped up over lunch "hey I've got a fantastic idea for our car why don't we do x.y and z?" and they could have set to work on the project none the wiser where that particular idea came from, or they could have knowingly copied the idea from the information they received.

Teams in F1 quite often copy each other konwingly. They send their engineers and senior technical staff off down the pitlane and grid formation to "study" each others cars for may new ideas and to see what the opposition are upto.

It's a bit daft for us to sit here saying oh my team would never do something like that, when history in the sport has shown they all blooming well do, it's part of the game.


Maybe they got those inspirations from track photos and stuff? After all, everyone seems to be running bridge wins this season. Anyway I guess you are right. No one will know, until someone retires and confesses when they get old, just like the Ferrari Williams affair.

#57 Buttoneer

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:35

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever

Did you not ever read the FIA report about the MP-23 that led to the apology from Mclaren?


Did you not ever read the Government report about weapons of mass destruction that led to the war in Iraq?

The point being that official reports, while nice to bandy about as 'evidence' or 'proof' or 'facts' are not always so, especially when couched in language such as 'may be' 'likely to have', 'probably' and 'possibly'. Of course McLaren might be guilty as sin, but this also does not prove that they were the only ones and it sure as hell wasn't proven by the report.

#58 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:39

Originally posted by Buttoneer


Did you not ever read the Government report about weapons of mass destruction that led to the war in Iraq?

The point being that official reports, while nice to bandy about as 'evidence' or 'proof' or 'facts' are not always so, especially when couched in language such as 'may be' 'likely to have', 'probably' and 'possibly'. Of course McLaren might be guilty as sin, but this also does not prove that they were the only ones and it sure as hell wasn't proven by the report.


Yeah clearly didn't prove a thing, McLaren grovelled and issued a full apology for nothing. :rolleyes:

#59 undersquare

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:42

Originally posted by Buttoneer
@Chiara;

You're absolutely right but I think what we saw last year is that the teams are still doing something similar. Renault did have McLaren IP on their computers, stolen by a team member. Spyker did get hold of a Red Bull blueprint. Toyota did program its wind tunnel using Ferrari data. Ferrari did use a mass damper through the early part of 2006. How does the knowledge of these new ideas and technologies (especially when they are under the skin) move about so quickly?

Nobody except those in the know have any idea quite how much data exchange goes on in F1.


And not forgetting that in Melbourne 07 FOUR teams mysteriously all turned up with a hinged floor/dropping stay. CiĆ² che una coincidenza!

And this year a senior Ferrari aero guy has moved to McLaren, quite legitimately bringing shedloads of knowledge.

So it needs to be kept in perspective. It's easy for very strong supporters to let outrage take over a bit, I think.

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#60 F1Obsession

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:42

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Yeah clearly didn't prove a thing, McLaren grovelled and issued a full apology for nothing. :rolleyes:


He proved that official reports don't mean anything. The apology was most likely forced by the FIA.

#61 kar

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:43

Really McLaren only have themselves to blame had they acted with more integrity in reporting Stepney's gross (and clear) misconduct when they became aware of it rather than trying to have it both ways they wouldn't have had to defend themselves against allegations of IP theft and utilisation.

Given the sheer volume of circumstantial evidence and incriminating emails the overwhelming likelihood is that they made some use of Ferrari IP if even only to work out where they should place their engineering effort.

The decision not to report Stepney when he passed over fuel load information along with technical details must have come from the top. Right from that moment McLaren lost any right to claim the benefit of the doubt.

And any moral authority they had they promptly lost with their utterly obtuse protests of the Brazil race certification and the blatant lies they spread about Renault, a protest they followed for their political purposes and nothing at all to do with 'the good of the sport'.

#62 Buttoneer

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:48

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Yeah clearly didn't prove a thing, McLaren grovelled and issued a full apology for nothing. :rolleyes:

Good comeback.

Does it not occur to you that the grovelling apology ended this whole issue not only for McLaren and the FIA but for the sport? The hearings, the reports, the apology; none of these are 'proof' of McLaren doing anything different from the other teams. There has been, as I pointed out above, plenty of evidence to show the free flow of information between the teams is nothing new.

#63 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 11:58

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Good comeback.

Does it not occur to you that the grovelling apology ended this whole issue not only for McLaren and the FIA but for the sport? The hearings, the reports, the apology; none of these are 'proof' of McLaren doing anything different from the other teams. There has been, as I pointed out above, plenty of evidence to show the free flow of information between the teams is nothing new.


Had McLaren not issued the apology and the matter had not been closed, what do you think the result would have been at the next WMSC hearing with McLaren having used Ferrari IP and methodes on the MP-23 and the FIA having found proof that McLaren had been using the data freely within the organisation and had left a trail?

Especially considering the fact they had already been found guilty and punished and were effectively under probation until the MP-23 had been signed off by the FIA.

#64 Chiara

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 12:12

Anyways just when we thought it had all died down and we could get on with 2008....Stepney is going up in front of the FIA....

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/65123

#65 HSJ

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 12:14

Originally posted by F1Obsession


MP4-22 had been combed upside down by FIA inspectors.


I don't think that's the case. Like with the MP4-23 designs where they picked some random systems to check, and then found evidence of stolen Ferrari IP used in their design, I think the 22 was also checked only partially. The FIA probably don't have the time or the resources to "comb upside down" a car really. The amazing thing is that all McL got for being found out in using Ferrari IP in the design of the 23 is that they merely can't develop those things for a while now. It is like an athlete being caught using doping and being told that he can't use the particular doping substance that he was caught with, but other than that he can compete and maybe even use other types of doping. Appalling, not to mention unsporting and unfair for all other teams.

#66 HSJ

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 12:16

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Had McLaren not issued the apology and the matter had not been closed, what do you think the result would have been at the next WMSC hearing with McLaren having used Ferrari IP and methodes on the MP-23 and the FIA having found proof that McLaren had been using the data freely within the organisation and had left a trail?

Especially considering the fact they had already been found guilty and punished and were effectively under probation until the MP-23 had been signed off by the FIA.


The apology is the part of the story that the public got. There was almost certainly a deal done behind the scenes (probably by Bernie), and there was talk that Merc got involved politically and effectively saved McL from being thrown out.

#67 lustigson

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 12:23

Every body said Ferrari had the upper hand same time last year. And look how 2007 panned out. :cool:

#68 Buttoneer

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 12:24

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Had McLaren not issued the apology and the matter had not been closed, what do you think the result would have been at the next WMSC hearing with McLaren having used Ferrari IP and methodes on the MP-23 and the FIA having found proof that McLaren had been using the data freely within the organisation and had left a trail?

Especially considering the fact they had already been found guilty and punished and were effectively under probation until the MP-23 had been signed off by the FIA.

So you're saying there are still undiscovered WMD in Iraq?

What do you think the result might have been had the McLaren hearing been heard by a civil court taking appropriate time to deal with the issues and the evidence? Do you think it would have been forced to find guilty based on possibilities and likelihoods? Why hold up the WMSC as some paragon of truth and virtue when we all know that the lack of transparency over the running of the sport in every single area makes this improbable?

I'll say again that this neither makes McLaren innocent nor proves that they did anything the other teams were not already doing. Nor do I condone any acts of industrial espionage even if some of these seem somehow exciting and romantic now they are 'the past'. But lets not pretend here that we know all the facts and can make a firm decision to hang. Nor should we assume the FIA knew everything, because they admitted themselves that it was impossible for them to properly 'audit' one team let alone all of them.

#69 VresiBerba

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 13:55

Originally posted by paranoik0
- pro-Ferrari sources saying Ferrari are 1 second ahead of everyone else
- pro-McLaren sources saying Ferrari have a slight advantage on race pace and a disadvantage to McLaren in qualy
- Trulli saying Ferrari are 0,5 seconds ahead of McLaren

- HSJ saying that McLaren is at least a second faster than anything else and that Ferrari is perhaps at best top 5. If Kimi... I mean Ferrari starts winning that is.