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Rally RAC 1970


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#1 jrally

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 12:10

Good morning !

Does anyone has a complete classification of the Rac rallye 1970 who could share ?

Thanks in advance
Best regards
jorge

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#2 sterling49

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 12:12

I await further postings with anticipation Jorge, a great period of Rallying! :clap:

#3 jrally

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 14:15

I have a classification of Motoring News but has a lot of lack of information ! From 21th to end doesn't bring the final times and there is a gap between 43th and 48th which doesn't show any driver.

So, some help will be wellcome
Regards
jorge

#4 RS2000

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 14:38

No Jorge, I dont have 1970 results, although I have an entry list (which shows one Billy Coleman as last entry number at 213 - I wonder what became of him!!!). Results (not necessarily complete) were on the site we discussed last week but I haven't been able to retrieve any data the way you suggested.

#5 jrally

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Posted 17 February 2008 - 14:45

Hi K.,

In that site, only first 20 !
Bill Coleman did not start !

Regards
jorge

P.S. - I will try simulate again to see if i can reach the site !

#6 Nick Wa

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 00:07

Car # 91 DNF !

We (Chris Rothwell of Safari fame & I) broke the timing chain somewhere on the North Yorkshire Moors when comfortably leading the 1100cc class. The works Wartburgs subsequently won it.

#7 RS2000

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 10:36

The 1970 RAC seems to have adopted yet another new seeding system. This time ladies first, followed by ordained ministers of the church. What the current crop of WRC moaners would make of it I hate to think, now just one place on the road counts for so much. (The real seeding starts at no.14).
I see Nick Wa's original choice of car/capacity class the previous year had found favour with a higher authority by 1970!
In the same class (1), No.138, the Searle Siemssen/Barbara Sabey Mini Cooper (YPL406H - the French equivalent to this site is very big on "immatriculations") finished despite my new-found service crew "expertise" and Lockheeds best attempts to eliminate every Mini in the event by supplying a batch of faulty new dual-circuit master cylinders that jammed the brakes on at some unexpected moment. Lying in a freezing puddle in the rain high on the Yorkshire Moors chipping brake pad material off the disc it had welded itself to, while Lockheed changed the master cylinder, was a new kind of fun...

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Co-driver of No1 had won the Starlight (road) Rally earlier in the year, navigating her regular driver, some bloke from Brent Vale Motor Club named Tony Pond, in a Cooper S. Wonder what became of him?

#8 sterling49

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 17:33

Peter Warren (Car 11 RS1600) lived not 2 minutes from where I type this! I walked to school one day and I spotted a Broadspeed Escort 1300GT parked on his drive.......as you do :lol: As you say, weird seeding, I forgot how odd it was then :eek:

#9 RS2000

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 19:11

Not sure you should have mentioned Broadspeed in view of Nick Wa's post!

#10 sterling49

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 19:17

Originally posted by RS2000
Not sure you should have mentioned Broadspeed in view of Nick Wa's post!


Sorry, that's lost on me, can you explain please?

#11 jrally

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 19:43

Tony Pond entered that year in a Ford Cortina Lotus with co-driver Michael Hayward (Nº 101). They retired with steering problems.

Regards
jorge

#12 RS2000

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 19:49

Originally posted by sterling49
Sorry, that's lost on me, can you explain please?

I'll let Nick Wa explain that one (but which company built all the quickest small Ford "screamer" engines?!)

#13 sterling49

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Posted 18 February 2008 - 19:52

Originally posted by RS2000

I'll let Nick Wa explain that one (but which company built all the quickest small Ford "screamer" engines?!)


I did think of that, but what Ford was he running with an 1100 c.c. engine? 1 litre, or 1300 yes ok, but 1100 :confused:

#14 Nick Wa

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 08:02

I read in "Motor Sport" last night the Lotus Cortina described as "the world's first homologation special", well the Escort became its younger cousin. Escorts were originally marketed in the U.K. in 1100 (1098cc) & 1300 versions (the smaller capacity versions were produced for specific European markets for taxation reasons).
I wanted a competitive car for 1969 to use in Eastern Europe so I bought a very early production "Tin Can". Now for home internationals it wasn't productive to beat your head against the might of Boreham, so which class was the weakest? Joe Lowrey suggested to me that the 1100 class was the one to go for.

Thanks to creative homologation buy two 1100 badges and fit, hey presto you have created a rolling 1100 very cheaply! Actually smaller rear drums had to be fitted. Now this was pre Mexico days and the Luton Motor Company were offering 1500 cc Escort conversions so a source for a cheap 1098 engine (I think 40 quid). But you need more umph to beat 950 Cooper Ss, Peugots and Alfa Suds, so to the expensive bit a visit to Ralph Broad.

Now came the hard part whilst homologation of engine parts had covered both racing & rallying needs for the larger capacity motors, in the case of the smaller versions it was solely aimed at winning various European & British racing championships. With what was available try as they might Broadspeed couldn't produce a tractable engine despite many hours on the dyno. So I've got what is virtually a full race engine with a very limited power band and an embarrassed but very generous Ralph charges all the labour at cost. For the record in the 1969 R.A.C. we (the late Jim Bate & I) get 2nd in class and about 31st overall with a legal 1100 which RS2000 witnessed as the scrutineers pulled it apart. I did not reckon on the Skoda to beat us but if I had been vindictive I could have had it thrown out for having a very oversize windscreen wash bottle by the co-drivers feet.

For 1969 a few sympathetic ears listened to my needs and magically all the good parts were homologated, bigger clutch plate (we had to change it Blackpool in '69 completely shot), bigger rear drums and more importantly the twin cam inlet manifold with Webers. This resulted in a wider power band (as low as 5800) and about 15 extra b.h.p. It was now also driveable in traffic without excessive clutch slipping. But perhaps the extra power rush broke the timing chain all I know is an unbreakable one was fitted f.o.c.

but which company built all the quickest small Ford "screamer" engines?!


Ralph did!
It screamed up to 8000 all the time, accidentally occasionally nearer 9 and once on a greasy piece of concrete 10600!

#15 jrally

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 13:42

And what about results ?
Does someone have it on 'Autosport' or other magazine who could share ?

Thanks in advance
Best regards
jorge

#16 RS2000

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 16:05

Originally posted by Nick Wa
a few sympathetic ears listened to my needs and magically all the good parts were homologated, bigger clutch plate (we had to change it Blackpool in '69 completely shot), bigger rear drums and more importantly the twin cam inlet manifold with Webers. This resulted in a wider power band (as low as 5800) and about 15 extra b.h.p. It was now also driveable in traffic without excessive clutch slipping. But perhaps the extra power rush broke the timing chain all I know is an unbreakable one was fitted f.o.c.


For those not so familiar with it all, this was cutting edge stuff under the then Appendix J. Inlet manifolds had to be original (up to about 1974 I think, when they became free) in Group2 and even the BMC works team had never managed to get a different inlet manifold homologated, hence the "split Webers" on the std Cooper S SU manifold that caused trouble on the 68 Monte. Getting twin 40s onto a Gp2 1300 or 1100 Escort then was not an easy task (the wilder Broadspeed semi-downdraft inlet was for Gp5 BSCC racing). Later on of course it all got crazy with even Gp1 having twin carb "emission kits" homologated (although Ford still shocked everyone by getting that through for the 74 Tour of Britain and creating the "Roger Albert and Gerry Marshall Show".

#17 jrally

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 14:04

Hello,

I would like to know if someone knows which team has finnished in 59th place in Rac 1972

Thanks in advance
Best regards
jorge

#18 RS2000

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 14:33

No results I'm afraid, although the Dave Finch Escort 1300GT I was servicing for must have finished somewhere around that position.
I have the road book/full route and stage details. 10 years later on the RAC I also encountered the same problem that nearly stopped winner Roger Clark in 72 on the final run in to York - sand/dirt getting into the front wheel bearings because no brake dust guards were fitted. He had Andrew Cowan's retired similar car running chase and a hub was swapped over at the side of the road when his bearing seized.

#19 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 17:52

How did cars 10 to 13 get their seeding from?

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#20 RS2000

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 19:47

Originally posted by Derwent Motorsport
How did cars 10 to 13 get their seeding from?

Probably from one or other member of the crew being a journalist. You'd have to look at the regulations for that particular year but there were all manner of weasel words about "entries for the purposes of publicising motorsport" etc. That clause also allowed (maybe still does) the MSA to grant an International Licence without the holder having properly qualified for it.
Most notorious on the RAC Rally was DJ Jimmy Saville who was entered with Jill Robinson one year in "works"-looking car they had to put a std Mexico engine into, as he proved unable to drive the original. Benson Ford Jnr was, I think, another example.
More recent celebs did at least do lower events to qualify eg. the equally notorious Chris Searle with Roger Clark in 1981. In the 90s commedienne Jo Brand was planning to do the RAC but stepped down at the last minute, admitting to fear and earning massive respect for treating the sport very seriously in a subsequent TV programme and clearly being in awe of Colin McRae when interviewing him - instead of taking the pi** as some feared.

#21 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 22:43

Originally posted by jrally
Hello,

I would like to know if someone knows which team has finnished in 59th place in Rac 1972

Thanks in advance
Best regards
jorge



I thought I had the answer for you from Motoring News but then realised why you are asking. Motoring News has repeated the 49th placed car as the 59th.

Car 135, also a Vauxhall Firenza, was driven by David Thompson and Moss Isley. Perhaps that's where the confusion arose.

#22 jrally

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 11:15

Exactly, Milan Fistonic !

They repeated the 49th and probably was Nº 135 ! I just needed to be certain !

Thanks for your help
Best regards
jorge

#23 Glengavel

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 11:48

Originally posted by RS2000

In the 90s commedienne Jo Brand was planning to do the RAC but stepped down at the last minute, admitting to fear and earning massive respect for treating the sport very seriously in a subsequent TV programme and clearly being in awe of Colin McRae when interviewing him - instead of taking the pi** as some feared.


Damn, wish I'd seen that.

#24 profjohn

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 11:53

Originally posted by RS2000


For those not so familiar with it all, this was cutting edge stuff under the then Appendix J. Inlet manifolds had to be original (up to about 1974 I think, when they became free) in Group2 and even the BMC works team had never managed to get a different inlet manifold homologated, hence the "split Webers" on the std Cooper S SU manifold that caused trouble on the 68 Monte. Getting twin 40s onto a Gp2 1300 or 1100 Escort then was not an easy task (the wilder Broadspeed semi-downdraft inlet was for Gp5 BSCC racing). Later on of course it all got crazy with even Gp1 having twin carb "emission kits" homologated (although Ford still shocked everyone by getting that through for the 74 Tour of Britain and creating the "Roger Albert and Gerry Marshall Show".


I'm intrigued by what was homologated and used on Group 2 1300 and 1100 Mk1 Escorts in period. Am I correct in assuming that Nick Wa ran in Group 2 with his 1100 Escort? Some people claim that Ford homologated the Hewland 5 speed 3 rail gearbox, but was that Group 5 racing only? Did it ever find its way onto a rally car?

#25 RS2000

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 15:56

Originally posted by profjohn

I'm intrigued by what was homologated and used on Group 2 1300 and 1100 Mk1 Escorts in period. Am I correct in assuming that Nick Wa ran in Group 2 with his 1100 Escort? Some people claim that Ford homologated the Hewland 5 speed 3 rail gearbox, but was that Group 5 racing only? Did it ever find its way onto a rally car?


Pretty sure that 5 speed never found its way on to a rally car (or not for long anyway!). A 5 speed box was just what Nick Wa's cammy engine needed but from, what I've heard, the Hewland 5 speed cluster was more or less a one 10-15 lap race/total rebuild situation.
Yes, Nick's 1100 ran in Gp2. I think std carb initially (1969) and twin 40s later - which must have co-incided with changes to Appendix J Gp2 that lifted the original requirement to retain the standard inlet manifold in Gp2 (the reason for the split-Webers on the works Cooper Ss on the 68 Monte and the controversy over what an "intermediary device" was). That change was no earlier than 1970 (and the regulation was probably the main reason the BSCC went GP5 in 66 to get round it?).
Nick's mentioned using a diff as low as 5.8. That may have been allowed to be homologated in Gp2 alongside a whole host of other ratios (need to check the FIA site) but in Gp1 only one additional final drive ratio a year could be added IIRC so it took time to build up a collection.
Of course gearboxes and diffs were fairly easy to change during a long rally and rumours persist about one particular Gp1 category winner on a later RAC Rally.....(although that was before the 5 speed T9 Sierra box with SC/CR kit became a straight swop for the 4 speed "Rocket" box on Escorts...ahem)

#26 profjohn

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 19:21

Thanks for the information. The Hewland box story is an interesting one, at least to me! The original one launched in 1962 had straight cut gears whereas the later, 1966, version used by Broadspeed and others I guess, had helical gears. Squeezing 5 gears into the space designed for four made them very narrow of course, and hence compromised the torque capacity, but they did run with larger bearings to improve matters. The later versions were offered by Broadspeed for road use, although I can't think why anyone would bother, and they were used in the Group 5 Anglias and 1300GT Escorts. I've no idea whether they found their way on to the 1968 Nurburgring 6 Hour cars. The larger bearings and helical gears may have made them durable enough, in which case they would probably have worked in a rally car.

#27 cosworth bdg

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 04:24

Originally posted by profjohn


I'm intrigued by what was homologated and used on Group 2 1300 and 1100 Mk1 Escorts in period. Am I correct in assuming that Nick Wa ran in Group 2 with his 1100 Escort? Some people claim that Ford homologated the Hewland 5 speed 3 rail gearbox, but was that Group 5 racing only? Did it ever find its way onto a rally car?

They were homologated in Gp 2 in all Escort Sedans, we ran them down under legally......................

#28 RS2000

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 16:21

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
They were homologated in Gp 2 in all Escort Sedans, we ran them down under legally......................



Pushrod-engined Escorts maybe. I can confirm they were not FIA Apendix J-homologated for the Pinto engined Escort RS2000. The ZF 5 speed gearbox was also Gp2-homologated for most Escorts (first in the TwinCam in 1970?).