56 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Hello!

In 1973 Jody Scheckter was Champion in the american F5000-Championship. He's the best F5000-driver from South Africa. But which drivers were also great F5000-drivers from South African in all F5000-Championships? What do you think and why? And are there any statistics with most wins, poles, and so on?

[HistoryFan]

And I need the teams/entrants in the american F5000 Championship 1973 of these drivers:

Brian Redman, Bobby Brown and Gerard Raney.

Thank you for help!

[picblanc]

Originally posted by HistoryFan
Hello!

In 1973 Jody Scheckter was Champion in the american F5000-Championship. He's the best F5000-driver from South Africa. But which drivers were also great F5000-drivers from South African in all F5000-Championships? What do you think and why? And are there any statistics with most wins, poles, and so on?

I remember seeing Eddie Keizan in UK 1974/5? in the Embassy Lola, dont know anything about him other than he was from South Africa.



Both photos copyrighted to Graham Etheridge, racebikepics.

[rateus]

From Wolfgang Klopfer's history of F5000 in America: Redman's entrants were Carl Haas/Jim Hall (effectively Lola's 'works' team, Haas was their importer) while Bobby Brown was entered by Anglo American Racing. No entrant listed for Raney.

[Hieronymus]

Experts will tell you that South Africa had its own F5000 championship...incorporated in the SA Drivers' Championship that also included F1/F2 cars.

[HistoryFan]

Do you mean the South African F1-series?

[Hieronymus]

Yes, some call it the South African F1 championship, but more correct it is the South African Drivers' Championship.

Quite a few F5000 cars competing there since 1969. Fastest/successful drivers were the late John McNicol, Eddie Keizan, Paddy Driver, Jackie Pretorius, Bobby Olthoff, etc.

I think the 5000cc Chev engines were popular amongst the locals, who still enjoy big engined cars with lots of horses.

[Kyalami Rob]

South Africa ran the F5000 cars in the same races as the F1 cars and then scored them as a different class.
There was a lack of entries in both classes due to the exorbitant costs of running these cars.
Paddy Driver bought the original Church Farm Racing McLaren M10B from the UK and brought it to SA to compete in the F5000 series winning it twice before moving on to F1 class. Interestingly he then joined Team Gunston as Ian Scheckters team mate and drove the ex Emmerson Fittipald Lotus 72 and would normally place in the top 4 in each event. Team mate Scheckter won the championship.
Paddy still has a completely restored Mclaren M10B in his collection of Grand Prix motorcycles.
There is a very good book written by Michael Oliver called LOTUS 72 "a formula one icon" ISBN 1 902351 06 1 that features a whole section one the South African Championships and shows a few pictures of the F5000 cars mixing it with the F1 cars of the day off the start line at Kyalami race track near johannesburg
Drivers in the SA series were John Love, Eddie Kiezan, Ian Scheckter, Dave Charlton, Guy Tumner ,Roy Klomfass and many more that I fail to remember
Kylami was rated as one of the best track in the world in the 70's and had the longest straight until the modern era.
I will see if I can dig out more facts about the F5000 series but can very fondly remember the sound of a F5000 being so much nicer than the f1's at full chat past the pits on the long straight

[HistoryFan]

Thank you!

I didn't know that the South African F1 Series was a F5000-series, although I know, that there were also F5000 cars in the races...

[Mozart]

The entrant of the Brian Redman Lola T330 F5000 in the 1973 U.S. series was Carl Haas, of Carl A.Haas Automobile Imports,Inc.

In 1974/75/76 the entrants were Carl Haas and Jim Hall (Chaparral).

It's likely that "Anglo American Racing" Bobby Brown's entrant, included Tony Dean, who recently passed away in England.

Brian Redman

[Kyalami Rob]

Yes there was a mix of about 50/50 of F1 and F5000 cars on the grid depending on the years as there were more 5000's in the beginning and more F1's later on once the works teams sold their F1 cars to the privateers.
Interestingly enough it showed the difference in performance because the F1 cars were about 3 to 4 seconds a lap quicker around the track but were slower on the straights due to the smaller engine. They just carried so much more weight that they were not quick in the corners but then could fly down the straights emitting a lovely rich V8 bellow. Long Live the F5000's
Voor sprung dur Cubic Inches

[fines]

That sounds a lot like Vorsprung durch Technik!

But I was intrigued by your earlier post:

Originally posted by Kyalami Rob
South Africa ran the F5000 cars in the same races as the F1 cars and then scored them as a different class.

Is that true? Without checking, I always thought they were scored as one class, even the F2s!?

[Hieronymus]

I recall that the top F5000 driver in the SA Drivers' Championship was awarded the so-called GOLD STAR trophy.

[Killarney]

It is correct that it was called the SA Drivers Championship. It was a strange method of points scoring, the same as the world F1 system of the time, as points were scored according to finishing position overall, and then points were scored for the Gold Class (effectively F2 and FJ) in the 60's and later when F5000 joined the scene the same applied to them. So there were two championships but is was almost impossible for anything other than an F1 driver to win overall. Having said that the one year John McNicol in a F5000 Lola T192 was within a couple of points of stealing John Love title.

The F5000 champ were Bob Olthoff (McLaren hybrid), Paddy Driver McLaren M10B and John McNicol (Lola T142/T192) as I remember

It would be nice to start a thread on South African motor racing as has happened with the Australian thread. There is so much interesting history and it is one of a few countries to host its own F1 series, staring in the early 60's until F Atlantics took over in the late 70's.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Killarney
It would be nice to start a thread on South African motor racing as has happened with the Australian thread. There is so much interesting history and it is one of a few countries to host its own F1 series, staring in the early 60's until F Atlantics took over in the late 70's.

Boet,

I would suggest that you use the SEARCH BB button. If you type in “South Africa”, “Kyalami”, “Killarney”, etc, etc you will notice that there are already numerous threads which deal with South African racing in one way or another. Check it out. If you wish to start a thread on a specific topic, though, please do not hesitate to do so.

[HistoryFan]

The F5000 champ were Bob Olthoff (McLaren hybrid), Paddy Driver McLaren M10B and John McNicol (Lola T142/T192) as I remember

@Killarney: McLaren hybrid? What car was it? In German hybrid is the technical system which will come in Formula One in 2009 (KERS). Was it a system like that? Or was it a McLaren built from 2 other McLaren or how could I understand the Word hybrid in this case?

[fines]

Ein Hybrid ist auch im Deutschen ein Produkt verschiedenartiger Vorgänger, z. B. ein Maulesel ist ein Hybrid, aber auch die Musikrichtung Fusion ist ein Hybrid; Hybrid-Antrieb ist nur eine spezielle Verwendung des Begriffes, und diese existierte in den Siebzigern noch nicht (wieder)!;)

[HistoryFan]

Danke!
Wie würde meine Englischlehrerin nun sagen: Back to English ;)

[Hieronymus]

Bob Olthoff and Doug Serrurier both played a major roll in establishing F5000 in SA. When the local motorsport control body decided to ban V8 engines from the domestic domestic sports car championship, these two gentlemen imported frames and installed the V8 engines.

Bob imported a frame via David Prophet. From this he built his own car...Mclaren "Special" with Ford power. He used it in 1968 and 1969.

In 1970 he imported a McLaren M10A for the F5000 (Gold Star) Championship.

[HistoryFan]

I don't want to start a new thread, so I asked it here: For which team and with which car drove Jody Scheckter in the South African Championship in 1970? Have you a list with all his wins (with the driver in second place + team)? And a championship table?

I don't have any infos about his career beforde 1970. Andy infos?

Thank you for help!

[Hieronymus]

Sir

Jody never took part in a race of the South African Drivers' Championship.

He first raced a Renault 8 in the SA SALOON CAR championship in the late 1960s. After some success and hair raising driving, he switched to Formula Ford. He won the South African driver to Europe award in 1971, after success in FFord. He went up to England and the rest is history.

Results...in Saloons or FFord?? I have to look it up in various reports, since I do not have it readily availible. I regret that I have never documented Jody's career in detail. Perhaps a project with this year.

[HistoryFan]

Sorry, I meant the South African Formula Ford in 1970...

[Hieronymus]

Jody was still driving saloons in 1970 and switched to FFord in 1971. In FFord he competed in a Lola (not sure of model designation). The car was entered/sponsored by Team Wynns/Excelsior Motors.

PS. Earliest reference I have of Jody in race reports (January 1969), gives his name as Jody SCHLECHTER.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
In FFord he competed in a Lola (not sure of model designation).

Lola T200, I think.

[HistoryFan]

Thank you!

[HistoryFan]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


Lola T200, I think.

Yes, it was. Source: autocoursegpa.com

[Hieronymus]

Danke

Jody's results in 1971 in the FFord Sunshine Series:



Brandkop, Bloemfontein (16 Jan. 1971) - 7th

Roy Hesketh, Pietermaritzburg (24 Jan. 1971) - 2nd

Kyalami, Johannesburg (30 Jan.) - 1st

Goudveld, Welkom (13 Feb) - 1st

Killarney, Cape Town (20 Feb) - dnf (suspension)

I think this is prety much the sum-total of his FFord races in South Africa.

[HistoryFan]

Kyalami, Johannesburg (30 Jan.) - 1st
Goudveld, Welkom (13 Feb) - 1st

Do you know who was in 2nd in this 2 races? With teams/entrants and car?

[Hieronymus]

KYALAMI - 2nd was Geddes Yeates (apparently from England). Note Richard Sterne won on the road, but was disq for rule infringements, thus Jody was awarded the win.

GOUDVELD - 2nd was Peter Hull

[Hieronymus]

Yeates driving a Lotus 69(?) entered by TEAM LOTUS PECO.

Hull was from New Zealand driving a Palliser. Self-entered perhaps?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Hieronymus

Hull was from New Zealand driving a Palliser. Self-entered perhaps?

I believe it was
He won three of the races to the one each of Yeates and Scheckter

[Hieronymus]

Thank you, David

I still try to determine how the points system worked. Peter Hull was the SUNSHINE SERIES DRIVERS' CHAMPION with 33 points, followed by Geddes Yeates (25), Scheckter (21), Mick Formato (10), Francis Polak (7), etc.

The DRIVER TO EUROPE CHAMPIONSHIP scored as follows: Scheckter (29), Mick Formato (18), Rose-Gold and Hearn (11), Fergusson (10), etc.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Hieronymus

Jody's results in 1971 in the FFord Sunshine Series:

Goudveld, Welkom (13 Feb) - 1st

Please note, Scheckter was 1st in the second Heat, but finished 2nd on race aggregate to Hull, by a split-second.

Thanks David, for pointing out that Hull was victorious on 3 occasions!

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
I still try to determine how the points system worked. Peter Hull was the SUNSHINE SERIES DRIVERS' CHAMPION with 33 points, followed by Geddes Yeates (25), Scheckter (21), Mick Formato (10), Francis Polak (7), etc.

Looking into this, I suspect your results might disagree with those published in Autosport at the time. I'll go away and see if I can work it out, then report back

[Hieronymus]

David

My sources are MOTORING MIRROR (April 1971) and CAR magazine (April 1971). No idea, though, how points were calculated. Perhaps Heat results and fastest laps also scored points?? The DRIVER TO EUROPE championship, naturally only included locals (South Africans).

[David McKinney]

Looks like the standard 9-6-4-3-2-1
Someone once told me how to post tabulated data, but I don't remember (and can't find any help on-site) so this will have to do:

Hull..........6 9 0 9 9.....33
Yeates......9 1 6 3 6.....25
Scheckter..0 6 9 6 0....21
Formato....4 4 2 0 0....10
Polak.........0 0 0 4 3.... 7

[Hieronymus]

OK, David, so we can stick with MOTORING MIRROR and CAR. AUTOSPORT's version, which I have not seen, can be dismissed.

Any idea what happened to Messrs. Hull and Yeates? How far did their respective careers stretched?

[HistoryFan]

@Hieronymus: Great infos! Thank you very much!!!

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
OK, David, so we can stick with MOTORING MIRROR and CAR. AUTOSPORT's version, which I have not seen, can be dismissed.

Why so? They had full reports, filed by Dave Clapham, who should have known what he was taking about, I would have thought.
Furthermore, as I have shown, the results they gave tally perfectly with the points totals you quoted.

Any idea what happened to Messrs. Hull and Yeates? How far did their respective careers stretched?

Yeates was around for a while in England, though I can't remember if he progressed beyond Formula Ford.
I know more about Hull.
He had been one of the discoveries of British FF in 1970, winning 12 races. In 1971 he raced a Brabham BT28 in F3, and by the end of the season was regularly finishing in the top six, with a few top threes. Unfortunately the BT38 he raced in 1972 was not as competitive, and there were also engine reliability issues.
He then turned to race management, and went home to NZ about ten years later

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by David McKinney

Why so? They had full reports, filed by Dave Clapham, who should have known what he was taking about, I would have thought.
Furthermore, as I have shown, the results they gave tally perfectly with the points totals you quoted.

David

I re-read your earlier post

I was under the impression that AUTOSPORT's points tally did not agree with that of MOTORING MIRROR et al, but you clearly mentioned "results " in your post. You are 100% correct, David, and so too is AUTOSPORT. I made the error by placing Jody 1st (overall) instead of crediting it as a Heat win.

The late Dave Clapham, yes most certainly! He'll be right most of the times.

Thanks for the info on Hull. I'll make a note of it.

[Hieronymus]

Seeing that we jumped from F5000 to FFord in this thread, just something more I can add, especially for the British enthusiasts.

Tony Brise was runner up in the 1972 SUNSHINE SERIES championship. Tony won at Brandkop and also in Lourenco Marques (Mozambique). Ian Scheckter won the championship and he thus became the second Scheckter in two years to win the DRIVER TO EUROPE award.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
I made the error by placing Jody 1st (overall) instead of crediting it as a Heat win

I wondered if it was something like that

[zakeriath]

See the attached link for some photos of the F5000 in SA

http://www.moby302.c...to/classic.html

[Kyalami Rob]

Wow!!!!!!!!! I cant believe the great shots of history in the making
Thanks for keeping them real

I can smell the highveld dust and feel the thunder of the big engines and I can even taste the hot dog I just bought at the Clubhouse Corner shop and then the walk or even run back up to the pits after the big F1 race to try and see the top aces in their after action wind down with waving arms and gesticulation as to how they passed a rival at full chat!!!!!!!! all under the blazing Kyalami Sun with the tannoi shouting out " over to you Lucky" as the next saloon car race blazed off the start line


MEMORIES ARE MADE OF THIS!!!!!!!!!

[GBarclay]

Originally posted by zakeriath
See the attached link for some photos of the F5000 in SA

http://www.moby302.c...to/classic.html

ah the memories that lot of photos brings back. I was at the 9 hr race, and remember the Rothmans Porches, the BMW M1's the Spice's, the Alfa's. Awesome stuff

many thanks

[Hieronymus]

I enjoyed Danie van den Berg's photos. Thanks for the link. Just sad to see so many of these drivers not being with us anymore...Haller, McNicol, Botha, Nieman, Love.

[pmbboy]

Great photos it really does bring back great memories. I see one photo from the Atlantic section shows my man Trevor van Rooyen in the DAW Maurer following Ian Scheckter in the Gunston March i can still hear the screaming Mazda rotary engine on full throttle up to Leeukop (wesbank), what a sound which no one can forget love it or hate it.
cheers
Peter

[ghinzani]

Originally posted by HistoryFan
Thank you!

I didn't know that the South African F1 Series was a F5000-series, although I know, that there were also F5000 cars in the races...

There were F2s too - and a FA right at the end of 75 as a precursor to the next seasons change in Formula. Where did that SA F1 championship thread go?

[Kyalami Rob]

Great pics' I see a picture of Alex Blignaut who was the man we can thank for the great Kyalami track and a great figure in the SA racing scene who is sadly no longer with us. See him with his Embassy Lotus and Eddie Kiezan. He was a major player in the SA racing scene and was a very driven and articulate person who seemed to get the best from all those who worked around him
The F1 pics look like Patrese's win in 1982 in the Gordon Murray designed car
Here is some F1 SAGP trivia

South African Grand Prix Winners

Car No. Driver Car Year
4 Pedro Rodriguez cooper Maserati 1967
4 Jim Clark Lotus 49 1968
7 Jackie Stewart Matra MS10 1969
12 Jack Brabham Brabham BT33 1970
6 Mario Andretti Ferrari 312b 1971
12 Denny Hulme Mclaren M19a 1972
3 Jackie Stewart Tyrrell 006 1973
7 Carlos Reuterman Brabham BT44 1974
3 Jody Scheckter Tyrrell 007 1975
1 Nicki Lauda Ferrari 312??????? 1976
11 Nicki Lauda Ferrari 312T2 1977
6 Ronnie Peterson Lotus 78 1978
12 Gilles Villeneuve Ferrari 312T4 1979
16 Rene Arnoux Renault RE20 1980

15 Alain Prost Renault RE30b 1982
6 Ricardo Patrese Brabham BT52B 1983
8 Nicki Lauda Mclaren MP 4/2 1984
5 Nigel Mansell William FW10 1985
5 Nigel Mansell Williams FW14b 1992
2 Alain Prost Williams FW15C 1993

Great run of F1 races and I would love to hear from those who were there

[zakeriath]

Was there from 76 on

76 & 77 as a spectator
78 working for Fittipaldi (only important jobs such as cleaning gearbox parts, polishing the car and fetching the mechanics food & drink)
79 as a time keeper
80 - 83 as a marshal
84 on as a spectator

Highs

Seeing Lauda & Regga coming round Sunset for the first time, Hunt chasing Lauda out of Leeukop in 76.
Camping with the old man.
Working for Fittipaldi.
Alan Jones spinning the Williams coming out of the kink, laughing as he walked up the pit lane.
Free access to the pits and startline
Meeting the drivers and teams easily
sleeping in a marshals hut to see Jody practise the Wolf for the first time.
Great friends and great times

Lows,

Tom Pryce accident
losing the "old" Kyalami
Foca war no Ferrais or Renaults
Hangovers on Sunday
not seeing any more GP`s after 93
Still not received Rene Arnoux helmet that he promised me when he won his first GP,(after failing to qualify the Martini)