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If Hamilton doesn't have the car to challenge for the title this year


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#1 SuperFastKimi

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 11:29

How will the British media react? Will they react rationally, or will they become impatient and start comparing him to Button. By the way I don't think Button's deserves all the criticism he has recieved over the years; he just hasn't had a good car. For some reason, the British media has a hard time understanding that you need a good car to win.

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#2 Group B

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 11:40

The British media see what they want to see. In this case, they have massively blown LH's trumpet, so if he does have a tough year they will conjure up reasons why a) they were 'wrong', and b) a superior Brit is not crushing inferior foreigners. They could go either of two ways; a) blame LH for letting them and the country down, or b) blame some foreigners, be it other teams, drivers, rulemakers, marshalls, whatever.

The upshot is, if it happens, someone will get slated.

#3 Chiara

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 11:46

I think it will be the old chestnut that evil Ferrari have taken away McLaren's pocket money and thus McLaren have been unable to build him the car - leaving Hamilton's Halo perfectly intact.

If he does have the car to challenge and still doesn't do it....then it will be a different story I think.

#4 Risil

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 11:56

They'll probably just lose interest. How often did F1 get into the 'mainstream' media before 2007?

#5 MichaelPM

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 11:58

Originally posted by Chiara
I think it will be the old chestnut that evil Ferrari have taken away McLaren's pocket money and thus McLaren have been unable to build him the car - leaving Hamilton's Halo perfectly intact.

If he does have the car to challenge and still doesn't do it....then it will be a different story I think.

Yea with out a doubt the spygate affair is a get out of jail free card.

or

They took longer then one bad season to turn on Button to any degree, JV would be running through peoples minds.

#6 LostProphet

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 12:12

Originally posted by Risil
They'll probably just lose interest. How often did F1 get into the 'mainstream' media before 2007?


Pretty much.

The tabloids will probably make a song and dance about various drivers "blasting" one another for some kind of infraction that may occur at the start of the season, but once their readers have gotten bored and moved onto who's shagging who in "I'm a Piss Poor Sponger, Get Me Another Benefit Claims Form" on ITV35, they'll drop it pretty quickly.

#7 Lorenzo

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 12:13

Lewis will still be their Golden Boy, unable to put a foot wrong...I am already dreading the thought of another season, listening to James Allen (ITV) and his incessant praise. I have nothing against Lewis, and I agree that how he performed last year (up until China) was sensational, but we don't have to hear about how he is the greatest thing since sliced bread, weekend in and weekend out... do we??

But I do like this Big Bad Ferrari taking all the money away from poor lil innocent McLaren theory, therefore hobbling poor Lewis...it seems to fit the bill.



:)

#8 Formulaonefan

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 12:29

About Lewis last year, ' It doesn't matter how you start but how you finish' that is what I have to say about the season ending performance of Lewis Hamilton.

#9 Chiara

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 12:44

Well he shouldn't have any problems against Kimi if this report is anything to go by ;) :p

http://en.f1-live.co...302125750.shtml

Hamilton better than Raikkonen, Williams suggests
''Kimi's weakness is that he is not that interested''
02/03/08 12:57

Lewis Hamilton is a better driver than F1's reigning world champion Kimi Raikkonen, the boss of the British Formula One team Williams has suggested.

Sir Frank Williams told reporters at a media lunch in London last week that rivals McLaren will have some consolation this season if Ferrari's F2008 turns out as expected to be a quicker package.

Referring to 23-year-old rookie Hamilton, the 2007 championship runner up, Williams is quoted as saying by the Daily Record: "If the Ferrari is the better car this year, McLaren should be saying to themselves 'Thank god he is not in a Ferrari, otherwise there would be no point going racing'."

Williams, 65, is reluctant to declare decisively that Raikkonen, the Finnish driver, is simply not as good as Hamilton.

"I don't know Kimi well. He is a gifted driver, as good as anyone, but Kimi's weakness is that he is not that interested.

"So if a man of equal skill, let's say, turns up in an identical car, with one working harder than the other, it is more likely that that man would have the upper hand," he added.

Source: GMM
© CAPSIS International

#10 big x

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 12:45

Originally posted by Group B
The British media see what they want to see. In this case, they have massively blown LH's trumpet, so if he does have a tough year they will conjure up reasons why a) they were 'wrong', and b) a superior Brit is not crushing inferior foreigners. They could go either of two ways; a) blame LH for letting them and the country down, or b) blame some foreigners, be it other teams, drivers, rulemakers, marshalls, whatever.

The upshot is, if it happens, someone will get slated.


Like some others in this thread you say "the British media" and "they" as though the media is a single Pravda like organization. In fact the coverage is very diverse.

adam

#11 blackgerby

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 12:47

Tabloid media treats all topics the same, yet people still buy it and believe what they read.
:drunk: :rolleyes:

If you read a tabloid and expect to read the truth, more fool you.

#12 Group B

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 13:03

Originally posted by big x


Like some others in this thread you say "the British media" and "they" as though the media is a single Pravda like organization. In fact the coverage is very diverse.

adam


That may be true, but I suspect the branches being referred to by the thread starter are the tabloids, celeb mags and popular TV. It certainly sounds that way.

#13 Group B

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 13:06

Originally posted by blackgerby
Tabloid media treats all topics the same, yet people still buy it and believe what they read.
:drunk: :rolleyes:

If you read a tabloid and expect to read the truth, more fool you.

It saves them having to research and/or think for themselves, as well as feeding and reassuring already present prejudices, stereotypes and opinions.

#14 Risil

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 14:15

Originally posted by Chiara
"I don't know Kimi well. He is a gifted driver, as good as anyone, but Kimi's weakness is that he is not that interested.

"So if a man of equal skill, let's say, turns up in an identical car, with one working harder than the other, it is more likely that that man would have the upper hand," he added.


OMG TROLL

#15 yr

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 14:23

Originally posted by Chiara


"So if a man of equal skill, let's say, turns up in an identical car, with one working harder than the other, it is more likely that that man would have the upper hand," he added. [/B]


I am not sure about this year but at least last winter Kimi did more testing KMs than any other driver, I wouldnt be too surprised if he did more testing than others this year as well. That doesnt seem to me like someone who is not interested and doesnt work hard. Oh well, I guess sir Frank just wanted throw in a different opinion.

#16 Group B

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 14:33

Actually, I can see where sFW is coming from. I think the point is that KR doesn't always come across as being as dedicated as certain other drivers. A bit of a playboy reputation combined with nonchalant character 'could' be interpreted as being less interested in his F1 results than he might be.

#17 DoubleWDC

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 14:49

Originally posted by Chiara
Well he shouldn't have any problems against Kimi if this report is anything to go by ;) :p

http://en.f1-live.co...302125750.shtml


FW's comments are nothing new. This is what he had to say at Oct. 06:

“I am disappointed that he is not taking F1 seriously enough.”

http://www.itv-f1.co...spx?PO_ID=37649

I don't expect his attitude to change even if KR becomes double or triple champion.

#18 mstar

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 14:54

well knowing the british press they will start blaming Mclaren and saying "they not doing hamilton justice and letting him down and hamilton should ask to go to ferrari" :clap: :cool:

#19 kismet

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 14:56

Sir Frank's low(ish) opinion on Kimi is well-known although I notice he seems to have adjusted it for the better since last year. The lesson here is not to care so much about people's opinions; SFW's opinion didn't prevent KR from becoming a WDC and it won't prevent him from beating LH in the future either.

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#20 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 15:37

I can see it already.
"It has been acknowledged as fact by most F1 insiders, that the racist taunts suffered by Lewis, at the hands of Spanish government paid agitators, has contributed to his poor performances this season", reported the Daily Telegraph.
" I know I shouldn´t have let it get to me", said Hamilton, "but when Fernando refused to condemn their disgusting behaviour, I just lost all hope in humanity".
MacLaren have decided to sell their simulator in order to generate funds in order to pay for professional help for their star driver.
"It´s all that Spanish upstarts fault", Ron Dennis was heard to mutter as he packed his bags and handed in the keys to his company car.

#21 Dunc

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 15:59

Jenson Button only got massive coverage in most of the British press when he won in Hunary in 2006. Lennox Lewis, possibly the greatest boxer Britain has ever produced, only got major coverage when he became world champ and after the Mike Tyson fight. Truth is that unless you're a publicity whore like Beckham the British media don't care that much about sporting personalities unless they're winning big.

#22 Arion

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 16:32

They will call him a loser and move on to find the next sporting phoenomenon. Maybe Andy Murray will win something this year, and we will have Andimania, who knows

#23 giacomo

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 20:02

Originally posted by yr
I am not sure about this year but at least last winter Kimi did more testing KMs than any other driver, I wouldnt be too surprised if he did more testing than others this year as well. That doesnt seem to me like someone who is not interested and doesnt work hard. Oh well, I guess sir Frank just wanted throw in a different opinion.

That's not true.

In the 2006/2007 off season Heikki Kovalainen did the most testing kms (8.529), followed by Felipe Massa and Lewis Hamilton.

Raikkonen is 9th on that list.

#24 HSJ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 06:34

Originally posted by giacomo
That's not true.

In the 2006/2007 off season Heikki Kovalainen did the most testing kms (8.529), followed by Felipe Massa and Lewis Hamilton.

Raikkonen is 9th on that list.


I think your list is incomplete regarding mileage. There's no way KR is 9th, IIRC indeed he did the most mileage of all drivers last winter, and has done a lot again this winter (not sure if he did the most this time though).

It is quite common that testing mileage lists are not complete and show a team or driver having done significantly less than the actual number is. The list compiler may have forgotten a test, or not known about some private test, or whatever.

#25 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 07:13

FORZA KIMI! :clap:

#26 yr

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 07:48

Originally posted by HSJ


I think your list is incomplete regarding mileage. There's no way KR is 9th, IIRC indeed he did the most mileage of all drivers last winter, and has done a lot again this winter (not sure if he did the most this time though).

It is quite common that testing mileage lists are not complete and show a team or driver having done significantly less than the actual number is. The list compiler may have forgotten a test, or not known about some private test, or whatever.


I´m also sure that it was Kimi who did most mileage last year, I tried to search it from old threads (like winter testing 06-07) but couldnt find it, but anyway there´s no doubt about it.

#27 as65p

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:00

Originally posted by yr


I´m also sure that it was Kimi who did most mileage last year, I tried to search it from old threads (like winter testing 06-07) but couldnt find it, but anyway there´s no doubt about it.


I just love the irrefutable logic in that sentence... :drunk:

;)

#28 abc

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:02

SORRY, OFF TOPIC

Gewählter Zeitraum: 01.01.2007 - 15.03.2007
Zeitraum ändern


Pos. Fahrer Testkilometer
1. Kimi Räikkönen 6.384
2. Felipe Massa 5.564
3. Jenson Button 5.543
4. Fernando Alonso 5.321
5. Giancarlo Fisichella 5.115
6. Robert Kubica 4.984
7. Heikki Kovalainen 4.943
8. Lewis Hamilton 4.792
9. Jarno Trulli 4.732
10. Nick Heidfeld 4.412
11. Rubens Barrichello 4.379
12. David Coulthard 4.127
13. Anthony Davidson 4.125
14. Mark Webber 4.026
15. Nico Rosberg 3.657
16. Ralf Schumacher 3.436
17. Franck Montagny 3.371
18. Alexander Wurz 3.343
19. Pedro de la Rosa 3.056
20. Christijan Albers 2.911
21. Takuma Sato 2.591
22. Kazuki Nakajima 2.499
23. Nelson Piquet jr. 2.471
24. Adrian Sutil 2.302
25. Sebastian Vettel 2.183
26. Christian Klien 1.701
27. Scott Speed 1.235
28. Timo Glock 848
29. Fairuz Fauzy 716
30. James Rossiter 695
31. Ricardo Zonta 686
32. Vitantonio Liuzzi 662
33. Marco Andretti 602
34. Luca Badoer 459
35. Giedo van der Garde 359
36. Narain Karthikeyan 236
37. Adrian Valles 196

#29 yr

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:14

Originally posted by as65p


I just love the irrefutable logic in that sentence... :drunk:

;)


What? You dont understand the concept of remebering something clearly (thus no doubt about it) but not finding it from internet?

Thanks abc, for finding the information :up:

#30 former champ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:57

Originally posted by kismet
Sir Frank's low(ish) opinion on Kimi is well-known although I notice he seems to have adjusted it for the better since last year. The lesson here is not to care so much about people's opinions; SFW's opinion didn't prevent KR from becoming a WDC and it won't prevent him from beating LH in the future either.


Ever thought Sir Frank may have a point when comparing Hamilton and Raikkonen though? If the McLaren is anywhere near as good as the Ferrari, Hamilton in his 2nd year is going to be a real, real handful for Raikkonen. Far more than I think anyone realises. He's no rookie anymore.....

As a Ferrari fan, if I could have anyone in a red car right now, it would be LH. At his age and with only one year behind him, he's already proven to be exceptional. Only finding himself in a poor car, year after year, will stop him becoming a multiple World Champion.

and, for the record, I would have KR as his teammate. ;)

#31 kar

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 09:14

Personally I'd have Raikkonen in the car for the next couple of years.

Let Lewis learn the hard yards at McLaren. When he's proved himself (and he hasn't yet imo) year in year out as reliable, then Ferrari can take him off McLaren's hands for a fortune.

Until then we've got the real deal in Raikkonen at his prime in his element.

Lewis will be a threat no doubt, but if Ferrari given Raikkonen a car than is as fast and as reliable as Hamilton's Raikkonen will win the titles. I'm not as sure the reverse would be true. In another 2-3 seasons maybe then Lewis will be unstoppable - then again maybe not.

But if he is, Ferrari will always have the pull and the cheque book to get him if necessary. Fernando spent a lot of time after 2006 saying how much he hates red cars. Funny how badly he wanted to be in one for 2008 :)

#32 former champ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 09:23

Originally posted by kar
Until then we've got the real deal in Raikkonen at his prime in his element.

Lewis will be a threat no doubt, but if Ferrari given Raikkonen a car than is as fast and as reliable as Hamilton's Raikkonen will win the titles. I'm not as sure the reverse would be true. In another 2-3 seasons maybe then Lewis will be unstoppable - then again maybe not.


The jury is still very much out on that. Given what happened in 07, I think there is every chance Hamilton can win World titles straight away should McLaren supply him with a car the equal of Ferrari. Obviously Raikkonen has more experience but I don't think that counts for much against Hamilton. The kid simply is that good.

Raikkonen may be in his prime but I'm guessing Lewis isn't yet, still building up to it. That's a scary thought. Given that, I'd have him in a Ferrari tomorrow. Why waste time with such an exceptional talent?

#33 kar

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 09:29

Raikkonen may be in his prime but I'm guessing Lewis isn't yet, still building up to it. That's a scary thought. Given that, I'd have him in a Ferrari tomorrow. Why waste time with such an exceptional talent?


Because it's hard to be sure he is _that_ talented just yet? He's a great driver but is he better than everyone else on the grid?

I kind of think he's still very young and with that youth comes a degree of arrogance and petulance that I'm not so sure would go down well at Ferrari. Better for him to be broken in at McLaren - even if he wins a title or two (perhaps even better for Ferrari if he does) in the process - and then come to Ferrari so that he can appreciate the different environment.

No point taking him so young I don't think. Let him learn and make mistakes (which in inevitably will) there. And meanwhile for then next 1-2 years Raikkonen is going to be the best bet for the titles. Maybe he'll retire after that, maybe gap fill with Alonso for a couple years until Lewis' contract comes up for renewal and then offer him whatever he wants. At 25-26, mature, experienced, sick to death of the mclaren culture he'll be ripe pickings for Ferrari.

#34 undersquare

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:06

Originally posted by kar


Because it's hard to be sure he is _that_ talented just yet? He's a great driver but is he better than everyone else on the grid?

I kind of think he's still very young and with that youth comes a degree of arrogance and petulance that I'm not so sure would go down well at Ferrari. Better for him to be broken in at McLaren - even if he wins a title or two (perhaps even better for Ferrari if he does) in the process - and then come to Ferrari so that he can appreciate the different environment.

No point taking him so young I don't think. Let him learn and make mistakes (which in inevitably will) there. And meanwhile for then next 1-2 years Raikkonen is going to be the best bet for the titles. Maybe he'll retire after that, maybe gap fill with Alonso for a couple years until Lewis' contract comes up for renewal and then offer him whatever he wants. At 25-26, mature, experienced, sick to death of the mclaren culture he'll be ripe pickings for Ferrari.


Don't forget that a lot of people like it at McLaren and have stayed there a very long time. And the culture at Ferrari is relatively recent, created largely by Jean Todt, who is leaving. Before him Ferrari was known as a political hotbed with slow unreliable cars and lots of internal politicking.

And while Todt and Ferrari have learned from McLaren that Kimi is so stubborn that they just have to let him do and not do what he wants, there may come a time when they want to impose some control, and then the relationship could suddenly become less cosy.

So I don't think a policy of waiting while Hammy gains experience is necessarily a great idea, even if they had the choice. But I don't think they do have a choice at the moment, his upbringing has had a lot of emphasis on discipline and loyalty, so I think he'll be happy at McLaren for as long as we can forsee. I don't think he'll ever drive for Ferrari.

I don't see the "arrogance and petulance" either, just a very confident and competitive driver who is the main threat to the Ferrari dominance of your dreams... :p .

#35 Orin

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:23

Originally posted by Risil


OMG TROLL


:lol:

As for the media reaction, it will be whatever sells the most papers, which ultimately means whatever the current public sentiment is, or is heading towards. Which makes Group B's sad tirade all the more laughable. I predict support will remain strong, unless he appears to fall to pieces towards the end of the season, in which case it will be all about the "The New Henman?"

#36 DoubleWDC

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:49

Originally posted by former champ

Ever thought Sir Frank may have a point when comparing Hamilton and Raikkonen though?


Evidence doesn't support your wishful thinking. KR IS the WDC and that's all that matters.

#37 DoubleWDC

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:51

Originally posted by former champ

Given what happened in 07, I think there is every chance Hamilton can win World titles straight away should McLaren supply him with a car the equal of Ferrari.


They did and Hamilton was not able to do it.

Obviously Raikkonen has more experience but I don't think that counts for much against Hamilton. The kid simply is that good.


I'm expecting more shredded tyres from LH ala China this year especially when TC is banned.

#38 former champ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:59

Originally posted by DoubleWDC
They did and Hamilton was not able to do it.


:lol:

I'm guessing your happy Raikkonen won the WDC with the fastest car? Good for you. :up:

#39 former champ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 11:03

Originally posted by DoubleWDC


Evidence doesn't support your wishful thinking. KR IS the WDC and that's all that matters.


What evidence? KR beat LH to the World title by how many points, in at least the equal best car, with Lewis in his first year of F1.

I'd much rather listen to Sir Frank than you, that's for ****ing sure. Mind you, when Alonso was World Champion, it wasn't 'FA IS the WDC and that's all that matters'. Was it?

You Raikkonen fanboys crack me up. :lol:

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#40 i.am.cloned

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 11:13

Originally posted by undersquare
his upbringing has had a lot of emphasis on discipline and loyalty

but it didn't stop him from trying to switch to Williams a few years back when he and Ron got in disagreement about his career development.

His upbringing also has had an emphasis on being strict and pragmatic because one never knows what happens tomorrow and so "you have to take care of what you have got"©A.Hamilton. Lewis has talent that could be converted to money that would be very usefull later when his talent or his health or his time are gone. That's the strategy and being in McLaren is only the current tactics that could be changed come new circumstances.

As example you can take his latest comments on Ron's posible retirement: "Ron goes when he has so decided. My partnership with Mersedes is as strong as my partnership with McLaren. This subject doesn't bother me." Sounds very cold to me after all those "second father" stories.

#41 Cenotaph

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 11:17

The thing about Lewis is that he was actually better the more rookie he was last year. If his experience gets him to park the car in the gravel more often he's going to be in trouble. :p

#42 former champ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by i.am.cloned
but it didn't stop him from trying to switch to Williams a few years back when he and Ron got in disagreement about his career development.

His upbringing also has had an emphasis on being strict and pragmatic because one never knows what happens tomorrow and so "you have to take care of what you have got"©A.Hamilton. Lewis has talent that could be converted to money that would be very usefull later when his talent or his health or his time are gone. That's the strategy and being in McLaren is only the current tactics that could be changed come new circumstances.

As example you can take his latest comments on Ron's posible retirement: "Ron goes when he has so decided. My partnership with Mersedes is as strong as my partnership with McLaren. This subject doesn't bother me." Sounds very cold to me after all those "second father" stories.


Loyalty can backfire and potentially ruin a career also. Look no further than Jacques Villeneuve who, funnily enough, exploded onto the F1 scene in a similar fashion to Hamilton. Lewis has to be smart about things, nothing wrong with loyalty but you have to be sensible about things.

Obviously McLaren have helped him enourmously but, if in the future, lets say Ferrari come knocking for him. If at the time McLaren are in a downward spiral and Ferrari as strong as ever, what should Lewis do then? Given an F1 career is only so long, your prime generally lasts only so long and there is always new talent coming through, should Lewis think simply of loyalty and stay with a declining team or should he think of his career, his winning aspirations, and move to a stronger team?

I would hope its the latter. Ayrton Senna was the same way and while it was ruthless, it also made him hugely successful. You can't let loyalty dictate at all costs. Bet you Jacques regrets it now, too late she cried.

#43 abc

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 12:11

Originally posted by former champ


What evidence? KR beat LH to the World title by how many points, in at least the equal best car, with Lewis in his first year of F1.

I'd much rather listen to Sir Frank than you, that's for ****ing sure. Mind you, when Alonso was World Champion, it wasn't 'FA IS the WDC and that's all that matters'. Was it?

You Raikkonen fanboys crack me up. :lol:


This Ferrari vs. MclAren last year is interesting topic. McLaren quicker in Qs and with better reliability vs. Ferraris better Sundays pace. IMO MClaren drivers lose more points due to own mistakes and yet they were able to collect more points than Ferraris drivers.

It shows that McLAren was actually better car unless you believe that McLaren pair was getting much more from car available. From here we can only guess and speculate.

I guess that Felipe was very well adjusted to Ferrari, TC and tires and speed wise he was on MSC level last year (he was almost there in second half of 2006 being number 2 driver in team). My view is that all 4 drivers of top 2 teams were very good throughout the year and there was very little between them. So if drivers were comparable (it is only relevant for last year), McLaren was all in all slightly better car for task to collect more points than competitor.

#44 Durant

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 12:23

Originally posted by abc


This Ferrari vs. MclAren last year is interesting topic. McLaren quicker in Qs and with better reliability vs. Ferraris better Sundays pace. IMO MClaren drivers lose more points due to own mistakes and yet they were able to collect more points than Ferraris drivers.

It shows that McLAren was actually better car unless you believe that McLaren pair was getting much more from car available. From here we can only guess and speculate.

I guess that Felipe was very well adjusted to Ferrari, TC and tires and speed wise he was on MSC level last year (he was almost there in second half of 2006 being number 2 driver in team). My view is that all 4 drivers of top 2 teams were very good throughout the year and there was very little between them. So if drivers were comparable (it is only relevant for last year), McLaren was all in all slightly better car for task to collect more points than competitor.


The Ferrari was so good that despite driving below Massa level for 1 third of the season Kimi was still able to beat the Mclaren drivers which proves the Ferrari was the best car. The Mclaren drivers had a few blips but they were generally very consistent, much more than the ferrari drivers and didnt underperform for long periods like Kimi did which was basically 1 third of the season. How can you say felipe massa was on schumacher speed level? You dont suddenly sprout that kind of speed years into your career you are born with it or not.

The best way to compare the cars is to compare Massa and Alonso and then its clear the ferrari had a sizeable speed advantage in qual and races for 90% of 2007.

#45 former champ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 12:24

Don't agree with any of that to be honest abc. It seems that simply because Raikkonen had 2 DNF's, that automatically makes the McLaren a superior car. That's the general vibe around here from KR's fans. Well in my book it does not and I would have thought it was clear to see that in terms of speed, Ferrari had an advantage (however big or small) more often than not.

An advantage that Raikkonen (and Massa) didn't always make the best of. Had Raikkonen had 8 dnf's, I'd agree that McLaren had the better package. However 2 dnf's are not the end of the world and don't dictate what the Ferrari was for Raikkonen at all the other races.

BTW Schumacher had Massa covered in a way that Raikkonen simply didn't. If KR is as good as we are led to believe, he should take care of Massa in a similar way to Schuey in 06. Let's see, I won't say it can't happen until we see this year.....

#46 Arion

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 12:51

Originally posted by abc


It shows that McLAren was actually better car unless you believe that McLaren pair was getting much more from car available.


Hard to say which is the better car, but I think the McLaren line-up was definitely stronger.
I'd agree there's little between Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton, but I won't put Massa on the same level yet.

#47 HSJ

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 12:54

Originally posted by former champ


What evidence? KR beat LH to the World title by how many points, in at least the equal best car, with Lewis in his first year of F1.


Says you. But then you're a JV fan. LH did what JV did in 96, nothing more. The transition from GP2 to F1 and champ cars to F1 would have been of similar magnitude, and they both had overrated (but in the right car WDC capable) teammates, which then made them look good. But in LH's case he should have more development potential than JV, so I'm not expecting identical career development in his case compared to JV.

In 07, if we count McLaren in despite cheating, then McL had the fastest as well as the most reliable car. Says me. There's no proof of course either way. Legitimately however LH has no F1 results yet to his name, so let's see if he can score some this year.

#48 abc

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 13:06

Originally posted by former champ
Don't agree with any of that to be honest abc. It seems that simply because Raikkonen had 2 DNF's, that automatically makes the McLaren a superior car. That's the general vibe around here from KR's fans. Well in my book it does not and I would have thought it was clear to see that in terms of speed, Ferrari had an advantage (however big or small) more often than not.

An advantage that Raikkonen (and Massa) didn't always make the best of. Had Raikkonen had 8 dnf's, I'd agree that McLaren had the better package. However 2 dnf's are not the end of the world and don't dictate what the Ferrari was for Raikkonen at all the other races.

BTW Schumacher had Massa covered in a way that Raikkonen simply didn't. If KR is as good as we are led to believe, he should take care of Massa in a similar way to Schuey in 06. Let's see, I won't say it can't happen until we see this year.....


I understand you, I discuss it with you as you are able of discussion.

My only point is that McLAren drivers lost much more points due to unforced errors. I can remember points costing mistake from Kimi in Monaco, Canada is debatable as his pace drop mainly after picking up debries from Kubicas car. Felipe had his moments in Malayisa, Canada, Q in Hungary - debatable. Lewis lost points in Nurburgring, China, Brasil. Alonso had off track excursion in Spain, Canada, France, miscalculation in Hungary, costly mistake in Japan.

Again my only point is that without unforced drivers errors McLaren would collect more points and difference wouldnt be just 15 points as in final standing for McLAren drivers but could be 40 points. And there are only 2 logical explanations for it.

A) McLaren was superior (not quicker car) over the season.
B) Ferrari car was better but McLaren drivers were such superior (worth of at least 40 pts.) to Ferraris drivers.

There is no other possibility and we have to compare rookie and strugling (with tires and own team) Alonso with strugling (tires) Kimi and well adapted Felipe.

For me remains A) as more probable. :wave:

#49 DoubleWDC

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by former champ

:lol:

I'm guessing your happy Raikkonen won the WDC with the fastest car? Good for you. :up:


Neither happy nor sad skippy. The only thing I'm happy is that McLaren didn't win it. It's very debatable if Ferrari was the faster car since McLaren was better in qualifying and on the whole weekends when not racing on aero intensive tracks.

#50 DoubleWDC

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 14:16

Originally posted by former champ


What evidence? KR beat LH to the World title by how many points, in at least the equal best car, with Lewis in his first year of F1.


LH nevertheless got beaten. If Raikkonen was as bad as you and FW suggest it could not have happened.

Mind you, when Alonso was World Champion, it wasn't 'FA IS the WDC and that's all that matters'. Was it?


Of course it's all that matters. FA however benefitted from superior reliability in 2005 which was also the case with LH and still he couldn't win so that comparison doesn't look too good on Hamilton.

You Raikkonen fanboys crack me up. :lol:


I'm no Raikkonen fanboy like you suggest. Don't automatically presume something if somebody intervenes you on your sad little crusade. Grow up.