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Schumacher has cracked under the pressure in Championship battles


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#1 SuperFastKimi

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:12

People who say Hamilton doesn't have the bottle seem to forget that on more than one occasion Schumacher has "choked" when the pressure was on. In 1998 he stalled on the grid at the start in the final race showdown, and he lost the title to Hakkinen. It was a big anti-climax, but I wasn't shocked because there were murmurs that Schumacher is very vulnerable under intense pressure.

Even though Schumacher won the title in 1994, he did "choke" in the last race - He was just lucky that Hill's car was damaged. People talk about the collision with Hill, but forget what happened before the collision. Before the collision Schumacher made an error and hit a wall. That allowed Hill to catch up and then the infamous collision happened. That wasn't even Schumi's rookie year, it was his third year. Hamilton's "choke" happened in his rookie year.

Schumacher also "choked" in 2006 - He was all over the place in Turkey in both qualifying and the race. He should have won the race but finished third. Remember that pointless battle he got into with De La Rosa in Hungary. He should have kept his cool and collected the points but he tried in vain to defend his position and ended up retiring from the race. Schumacher did have an engine problem in Japan, but he lost many points because he did not keep his head in Hungary and Turkey and some other races in the final stretch of the season. There is a similarity with Hamilton here - Hamilton had problems with his car in Brazil, but he lost points in China because he did not keep his head, and did not keep his head at the start in Brazil.

In the final race of 2003, Schumacher made hard work of getting the one point that he needed to win the title. He ran off the track many times. Even Pat Symonds talked about Schumi being extremely vulnerable to pressure.

So Schumacher has lost titles by not keeping his head under pressure. He could have lost more had he not been so lucky in 1994. If Hill had just been a little patient he could have waited for his chance to overtake Schumacher and then more people would have talked about Schumacher's running into the wall "choke" in 1994.

So if one of the greatest drivers of all time can make costly errors under the intense pressure of a championsip battle, why do some people say Hamilton doesn't have what it takes mentally to become a truly great driver.

Hamilton could well end his career with 4 or 5 world titles, and only have one or two "chokes" to his name.

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#2 BMW_F1

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:16

Shumi did make more mistakes than Alonso and Kimi, I have to admit.

#3 Hames Junt

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:20

Originally posted by SuperFastKimi
Remember that pointless battle he got into with De La Rosa in Hungary. He should have kept his cool and collected the points but he tried in vain to defend his position and ended up retiring from the race.


????

Schumacher is racer, that's whats is in his DNA. Besides he needed every point he could get, he still trailed Alonso.

This is a thread raising stupid points at a silly time, being on the eve of a new season and all.

#4 noikeee

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:22

Originally posted by SuperFastKimi
why do some people say Hamilton doesn't have what it takes mentally to become a truly great driver.


I haven't heard/read anyone saying it.

It might be true MS sometimes messed up under pressure, but his 7 championships pretty much prove that this weakness of his was insignificant compared to all his strengths.

The thing I criticise MS for, and harshly, is cheating/displaying a complete lack of sportsmanship in several occasions. That's what diminished his achievements for me. Apart from that, the guy was brilliant.

#5 512 TR

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:23

Originally posted by BMW_F1
Shumi did make more mistakes than Alonso and Kimi, I have to admit.


He was in F1 a lot longer as well...

#6 Scudetto

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:27

By the way, Michael also happened to drive a brilliant race, in changing conditions, during the 2000 title decider at Suzuka. Just so that we're clear that Schumacher wasn't a total **** up.

#7 volumenzero

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:35

A new member on the BB with a name made to distract our attention from the fact he is a die hard fan of Lewis Hamilton ... nothing new ...

well ... maybe he is not new ... if you know what I mean ...



:rotfl:

#8 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:55

Originally posted by Scudetto
By the way, Michael also happened to drive a brilliant race, in changing conditions, during the 2000 title decider at Suzuka. Just so that we're clear that Schumacher wasn't a total **** up.


:clap:

#9 karlth

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 21:57

Originally posted by Scudetto
By the way, Michael also happened to drive a brilliant race, in changing conditions, during the 2000 title decider at Suzuka. Just so that we're clear that Schumacher wasn't a total **** up.


Yes, it was a one off. ;)

#10 FNG

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:04

Does anyone really think MS would have blown a 14 ( not sure the exact amount bit it was big) point lead with 2 races to go? I think not, and I'm not a MS fanboy. Yes MS has choked in a race when the title was on the line but he didn't choke twice in a row with such a massive point lead.

Hamilton is talented and will I'm sure one day win a WDC but get over it, it was one of the biggest chokes in history.

#11 JensonWDC

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:08

To the stalling on the grid in `98:



"Well this is a race in which many people think that Michael Schumacher 'stalled' his car under pressure... So I uploaded a video which seems to suggest that it was actually caused due to lack of cooling arrangements by Ferrari... Alas ! A chance for a championship was ruined in any case"

#12 Suntrek

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:10

Originally posted by volumenzero
A new member on the BB with a name made to distract our attention to the fact he is a die hard fan of Lewis Hamilton ... nothing new ...

well ... maybe he is not new ... if you know what I mean ...



:rotfl:


The only sensible post in this thread. :up:

#13 Domination

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:18

Originally posted by FNG
Does anyone really think MS would have blown a 14 ( not sure the exact amount bit it was big) point lead with 2 races to go? I think not, and I'm not a MS fanboy. Yes MS has choked in a race when the title was on the line but he didn't choke twice in a row with such a massive point lead.

Hamilton is talented and will I'm sure one day win a WDC but get over it, it was one of the biggest chokes in history.


Hamilton chocked but not twice. He made a mistake only once in China. In Brazil he only did what he was trained to do all his life, to race. Now whether him going off the track caused the gearbox to fail is another issue and is up for debate.

#14 FNG

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:25

Originally posted by Domination


Hamilton chocked but not twice. He made a mistake only once in China. In Brazil he only did what he was trained to do all his life, to race. Now whether him going off the track caused the gearbox to fail is another issue and is up for debate.


So your saying that he doesn't know how to drive? He doesn't know how to take points when he should. He is a robot and only knows one thing?

It was ego that got him, he couldn't handle Alonso passing him and he killed his WDC through pride.

What is with all this racer shit? All he had to do was follow the leaders and he would have won. He's a racer blah blah blah. If that's the case then he is thick too. Many all out racers have enough sense to know when to race and when to collect an easy WDC. It was a mistake, and I'm sure he knows it. If he were in the exact same situation again I can bet you he would take the points and not "race". If not then he IS thick, and I'm fairly certain he's quite intelligent.

But anyways no point rehashing painful memories. A new season begins.

#15 schuey100

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:40

Don't forget that he choked in the Race of Champions final too. Stalled at the start which was rather funny.

#16 k1ngy

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:45

Originally posted by FNG


So your saying that he doesn't know how to drive? He doesn't know how to take points when he should. He is a robot and only knows one thing?

It was ego that got him, he couldn't handle Alonso passing him and he killed his WDC through pride.

What is with all this racer shit? All he had to do was follow the leaders and he would have won. He's a racer blah blah blah. If that's the case then he is thick too. Many all out racers have enough sense to know when to race and when to collect an easy WDC. It was a mistake, and I'm sure he knows it. If he were in the exact same situation again I can bet you he would take the points and not "race". If not then he IS thick, and I'm fairly certain he's quite intelligent.

But anyways no point rehashing painful memories. A new season begins .

Correct and correct. They were painful to watch, I was working in Hungary at the time of Lewis troubles in China and Brazil. I agree that there is no point rehashing old memories and only hope that at the end of '08 season i hope you are not all saying 'Poor Lewis he could have had 2 had he not choked' :kiss:

#17 spwolf

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 22:48

Originally posted by paranoik0


I haven't heard/read anyone saying it.

It might be true MS sometimes messed up under pressure, but his 7 championships pretty much prove that this weakness of his was insignificant compared to all his strengths.

The thing I criticise MS for, and harshly, is cheating/displaying a complete lack of sportsmanship in several occasions. That's what diminished his achievements for me. Apart from that, the guy was brilliant.


just proves that nobody is perfect. which doesnt detract from MS greatness.

#18 Mauseri

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 23:01

Originally posted by Suntrek
The only sensible post in this thread. :up:

You dont still need to post thumbs up for yourself :)

#19 undersquare

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 23:14

Originally posted by FNG


So your saying that he doesn't know how to drive? He doesn't know how to take points when he should. He is a robot and only knows one thing?

It was ego that got him, he couldn't handle Alonso passing him and he killed his WDC through pride.

What is with all this racer shit? All he had to do was follow the leaders and he would have won. He's a racer blah blah blah. If that's the case then he is thick too. Many all out racers have enough sense to know when to race and when to collect an easy WDC. It was a mistake, and I'm sure he knows it. If he were in the exact same situation again I can bet you he would take the points and not "race". If not then he IS thick, and I'm fairly certain he's quite intelligent.

But anyways no point rehashing painful memories. A new season begins .


The Brazil off didn't affect the outcome at all. He knew the runoff was there, and in fact he was only 4.7 seconds behind the leader at the end of lap1. (extremely) exhaustive discussion and evidence on this BB has shown that off did not cause the gearbox fault. And bear in mind in Shanghai the team played their part leaving him driving on canvas.

So while it's easy to repeat the "17 points" it does not make him a choker.

But anyway no point talking about it now (forum code for I want the last word :p ).

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#20 Perigee

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 23:23

Look, we all know that Schumacher's 7 World Championship titles were entirely down to luck and that he was a talentless clown who didn't even deserve to be in F1 ;)

#21 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 23:55

Most of the points raised are valid but pretty much everything else Schumacher did was above and beyond what most people will ever achieve. Not just in F1. Ever.

#22 SlateGray

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 03:03

Originally posted by undersquare


The Brazil off didn't affect the outcome at all. He knew the runoff was there, and in fact he was only 4.7 seconds behind the leader at the end of lap1. (extremely) exhaustive discussion and evidence on this BB has shown that off did not cause the gearbox fault. And bear in mind in Shanghai the team played their part leaving him driving on canvas.

So while it's easy to repeat the "17 points" it does not make him a choker.


:lol: Nice try

1. Hamilton choked bigger than anyone ever has in F1, therefore he is a choker.

2. The cause of Hamilton's gearbox problem is not known the possibility it was Hamilton's error is not excluded no matter how hard you wish other wise

Let’s hope for the sake of his fans sanity that he does not screw the pooch again in 2008.

#23 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 03:54

Originally posted by Scudetto
By the way, Michael also happened to drive a brilliant race, in changing conditions, during the 2000 title decider at Suzuka. Just so that we're clear that Schumacher wasn't a total **** up.



:rotfl:

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#24 black magic

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 04:19

I dont see why making a mistake in an important race is necessarily a "choke" - for lewis or anybody else.

lewis choked in that he had an enormous lead but I dont believe he had dominated despite that. he had won "only" 4 races. mclaren also made some impt bad decisions which also contributed.

but I just dont get the lewis fan club always trying to take on the legend of michael schumacher. why dont you try something a little more manageable first like comparing him to any 1 x wdc( allowing for the technicality that he hasnt won a wdc yet - and does the name montoya ring any bells?) but seriously trying to comapre yourself to ms is like an amateur champ comparing his amateur record with tigers - ah so what?

#25 Menace

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 04:52

I smell troll... phew...

#26 Apocalypse

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 05:04

Originally posted by FNG
Does anyone really think MS would have blown a 14 ( not sure the exact amount bit it was big) point lead with 2 races to go?


The gap was 17 points before the last two races.

#27 giacomo

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 05:42

Originally posted by SuperFastKimi
Schumacher has cracked under the pressure in Championship battles.

Yup.

Ergo: Hamilton > Schumacher.


Case closed.

#28 ademm

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 07:56

Originally posted by SuperFastKimi
Remember that pointless battle he got into with De La Rosa in Hungary.


Heh. To me it was worth all his WDCs. After 99 Silverstone that was one of the few occasions where he drove like there was no tomorrow. The real Schumacher I am a fan of.

#29 ClubmanGT

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 08:08

Originally posted by ademm


Heh. To me it was worth all his WDCs. After 99 Silverstone that was one of the few occasions where he drove like there was no tomorrow. The real Schumacher I am a fan of.


I can remember being on the absolute edge of my seat until he got that puncture in 1998. He made races a lot more interesting, and unlike some drivers, like Damon Hill, who were equally contraversial but just went stale a lot quicker, he made a long term impression on the sport that will extend beyond record books. If I raced for fifteen years in F1 and only had a handful of errors next to my name, I'd say that's a pretty impressive record no matter who you are.

#30 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 08:18

Who gives a ****. Hamilton and Schumacher didn't even race against each other.

#31 wingwalker

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 08:58

L to the O to the motherf******g L


2008 season is about to start? Meh. Let's talk about Schumacher! :rolleyes:

#32 volumenzero

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 09:38

Originally posted by micra_k10

You dont still need to post thumbs up for yourself :)


explanation please ?

#33 sensible

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 10:09

What you are saying Schumacher wasnt completely perfect? that he had areas he could improve?

Shit :eek:

Quick, rip out all the records, demote him to last in the all time standings, ignore all those wins and championships, never again mention his name in a thread about a current driver against whom he never raced.

whew.

You'll be telling us he even made mistakes next :rolleyes:

#34 B.Verkiler

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 10:30

How did they win or loose their(s) championship(s) ?

Alonso :
05-06 : just cruise to the finish line (distant 3rd in brazil 05, distant 2nd in brazil 06) to get the ultimate points.
07 : just cruise to the line without trying anything (like in 05 and 06), but this time more was needed : beat one Ferrari. He didn't even trry.

So in the decisives races, quite underperforming compared to the precedent races.

Raikkonen :
Japan 03 : Coulthard has to hold on just behind him. In a race where Montoya, Ralf, Alonso were al faster than Barrichello and as fast or faster then Schumacher thanks to the usual Michelin domination, Raikkonen was unable to match these guys.
Brazil 05 : There was nothing he could do indeed once Alonso was third, yet he managed to **** up his qualifying and lose the race to Montoya.
Brazil 07 : Beaten by Massa in qualif, on Massa's level in the race.

So in the decisives races, quite underperforming compared to the precedent races.


Tell me about it these two guys who "didn't crack" in a decisive GP : they were performing under their own usual standards. When they got it, you can always say they did enough. But when they lose it, you just notice they did exactly the same and that was not enough.

The real strenght again pressure is to be able to perform at your best. That is what Schumacher has done in every decisive race he went in. That is also what Hamilton has tried to do. Look at the difference of rythm with Alonso in the last 2 races. He was so much faster. Hamilton was not obliged to do so to clinch the title, so one could argue he cracked under pressure. I'm not sure that was the case. It is a case of being a little bit to absolute and hungry. Schumacher never was in the same situation, so no one can say if he would have tried (too) hard to win theses 2 last races, or if he would have cruised to get just the necessary points, in a situation where it looked quite unlikely to loose the title.

To sum up : in a decisive race, if you try nothing and just cruise, you are not really likely to make a mistake. That is not "not cracking under pressure". If you try hard, and even too hard because it is the last chance, then a mistake is not synonim of cracking under pressure, it is just a mistake due to too much attack.

#35 Hacklerf

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 10:36

Michael Schumacher was in many championship deciders, of course some were coped with better than others, but i must say his luck was always not so great, stalling on the grid was a clutch problem i believe and the heartache of the 06 engine blow which lead to one of the greatest drives of all time at Brazil.

Schumacher was no perfect, but Hamilton for sure takes the crown of cracking under pressure.

#36 glorius&victorius

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 11:03

hey the man retired... let him enjoy his 7 wdc's in peace!

#37 Man of the race

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 11:17

Isn't there a nostalgia forum for the topics like this. At least I prefer to concentrate on current events in Melbourne.

#38 Maldwyn

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 11:21

Originally posted by Hacklerf
Hamilton for sure takes the crown of cracking under pressure.

Hamilton has been involved in one WDC decider...in his rookie season. When he's had the opportunity to compete for, let alone win, 7 titles then we can better judge his ability to deal with pressure.

In Schumacher's case we have a complete career that is in the history books, and those books tell stories of a number of incidents at high pressure moments, but it also tells of a driver who won 7 WDC's and you don't do that by 'choking' regularly.

#39 Domination

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by Maldwyn

Hamilton has been involved in one WDC decider...in his rookie season. When he's had the opportunity to compete for, let alone win, 7 titles then we can better judge his ability to deal with pressure.

In Schumacher's case we have a complete career that is in the history books, and those books tell stories of a number of incidents at high pressure moments, but it also tells of a driver who won 7 WDC's and you don't do that by 'choking' regularly.


:up: It's funny how people forget that it was Hamilton's first season in F1 and the fact that he managed to pull a 17 point lead against a 2xWDC and people have been in F1 for quite a while is amazing in itself. He never should have been given the lead in the first place.

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#40 Frans

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 11:35

yeah ... Sjoemelmacher is history. put this in nostalgia....

And history learned us he could not handle pressure. nothing new here....

#41 Dragonfly

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 12:13

Let's wait for some 14 years and then compare Ham with Schu.

#42 hobbes

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 15:15

Once you read such posts, the join date becomes less and less surprising

#43 Suntrek

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 15:46

Originally posted by volumenzero


explanation please ?


I think it was meant to be a joke. ;)

@ micra_k10: Nobody else will post thumbsup for me, so I might just as well do it myself. :smoking:

Oops going off topic here...(well the topic is crap anyway so I don't feel particulary bad about it)

#44 Rinehart

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 15:52

Originally posted by SuperFastKimi


In the final race of 2003, Schumacher made hard work of getting the one point that he needed to win the title. He ran off the track many times. Even Pat Symonds talked about Schumi being extremely vulnerable to pressure.


Brilliant, so your 2003 example of Schumacher cracking under pressure, culminates in Schumacher.... winning the Championship!!!


Do you mind if I don't take your post too seriously.

#45 volumenzero

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 17:10

Originally posted by Maldwyn

Hamilton has been involved in one WDC decider...in his rookie season. When he's had the opportunity to compete for, let alone win, 7 titles then we can better judge his ability to deal with pressure.

In Schumacher's case we have a complete career that is in the history books, and those books tell stories of a number of incidents at high pressure moments, but it also tells of a driver who won 7 WDC's and you don't do that by 'choking' regularly.


so statistically ... Hamilton has cracked under pressure in 100% of ocasions.

#46 SeanValen

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 17:53

How many championship showdowns has any other driver had compared to Schumacher?


And in 1997 and 1998 lets say, no one was capable of doing some of the drives Schumacher did in those seasons to get himself into championship contention as the season went on.


Regarding Japan 2003, the rules were brought in to slow Schumi and Ferrari down, had they left the points system alone, Schumacher would of won Indy 2003 and his 6th title, but the fact he had to chase just one point in Japan, and deal with a qualifying lottery fest that send him down the grid, it was kinda a different ball game, he needed one point, but sometimes even one point is a high stakes drive of pressure, because anything can happen in a race, I'm sure Schumi felt he deserved the title in Indy, if the FIA left he rules alone, so if anything, the FIA and even Max Mosely said MS would of been robbed of the title if he lost Japan 2003. The fact the two championship rivals were on different points on the grid, as MS was forced to qualify in a championship showdown in the wet, and only one lap to do it on, yes that's pressure, he could of slid off, and made any error that weekend, but in the end, he got the one point he needed, I for one think, he got the title at Indy 2003, FIA shouldn't have any changed the quali rules and point system to peanlise successful driver and team like MS and Ferrari that year, that year Williams and Mclaren won races, and would of challenged MS and Ferrari anyway, FIA just panicked because MS did a big dominating ferrari season in 2002,. The sport is still trying to sort itself out due to the changes that year.

The competition built better cars in 2003 then 2002, so the season was better, and it would of been even better with the same rules, but the FIA knew, fans knew, and everyone else knew, Schumacher was like invisable at the time, well lets slow down Schumi, he's just too blloody good. and guess what, they almost did in 2003 Japan, yet Schumi scapped through, not only beating his rivals but more importantly the crap rules.

#47 polymath

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 18:10

Originally posted by volumenzero


so statistically ... Hamilton has cracked under pressure in 100% of ocasions.



:up:

+
disobeyed team strategy

got his team investigated by the FiA and bashed by the press


#48 pUs

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 18:13

Originally posted by SeanValen
How many championship showdowns has any other driver had compared to Schumacher?


And in 1997 and 1998 lets say, no one was capable of doing some of the drives Schumacher did in those seasons to get himself into championship contention as the season went on.


Regarding Japan 2003, the rules were brought in to slow Schumi and Ferrari down, had they left the points system alone, Schumacher would of won Indy 2003 and his 6th title, but the fact he had to chase just one point in Japan, and deal with a qualifying lottery fest that send him down the grid, it was kinda a different ball game, he needed one point, but sometimes even one point is a high stakes drive of pressure, because anything can happen in a race, I'm sure Schumi felt he deserved the title in Indy, if the FIA left he rules alone, so if anything, the FIA and even Max Mosely said MS would of been robbed of the title if he lost Japan 2003. The fact the two championship rivals were on different points on the grid, as MS was forced to qualify in a championship showdown in the wet, and only one lap to do it on, yes that's pressure, he could of slid off, and made any error that weekend, but in the end, he got the one point he needed, I for one think, he got the title at Indy 2003, FIA shouldn't have any changed the quali rules and point system to peanlise successful driver and team like MS and Ferrari that year, that year Williams and Mclaren won races, and would of challenged MS and Ferrari anyway, FIA just panicked because MS did a big dominating ferrari season in 2002,. The sport is still trying to sort itself out due to the changes that year.

The competition built better cars in 2003 then 2002, so the season was better, and it would of been even better with the same rules, but the FIA knew, fans knew, and everyone else knew, Schumacher was like invisable at the time, well lets slow down Schumi, he's just too blloody good. and guess what, they almost did in 2003 Japan, yet Schumi scapped through, not only beating his rivals but more importantly the crap rules.


Sean, try deleting some PM's in your inbox, it seems full. I can't answer you :)

#49 Atic Atac

Atic Atac
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Posted 13 March 2008 - 18:41

Originally posted by B.Verkiler
How did they win or loose their(s) championship(s) ?

Alonso :
05-06 : just cruise to the finish line (distant 3rd in brazil 05, distant 2nd in brazil 06) to get the ultimate points.
07 : just cruise to the line without trying anything (like in 05 and 06), but this time more was needed : beat one Ferrari. He didn't even trry.

So in the decisives races, quite underperforming compared to the precedent races.


Just some comments on that.

On 05-06 he made what he needed to do to win... and won. And no precisely beeing conservative along the year.

On brasil 07 Alonso was running on a car with a slower engine (it was on the second race), while the ferraris and Hamilton were using an engine that only had to last for one race. He was about 0.7 secs a lap slower and had no real chance of fighting for victory.;)

#50 black magic

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 20:37

this thread should be terminated. these issues have been done to death in numerous other threads