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Aus GP : Friday Free Practice discussion thread


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#101 angst

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:21

Originally posted by as65p


And there was me thinking you're an adult person. My mistake, sorry...

Nowhere in my post did I talk about Alonsos greatness. My point is simply that you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the paddock who shares your opinion that Fisi is as good as Alonso, and that's reflected in where they are driving and what they are getting paid for it, also in those minor side-issues like wins and championships.

But sure, you know better than all of them, and if it wasn't for Flavio, Fisi would be a multiple champion by now...

You try really hard to reach HSJ-like delusional heights today. If that was indeed your intention: nice effort!


But is that what I said? You might like to read what I wrote. The thing is, you haven't said it here, that Alonso is great, but your posts are predictable, the true nature of what you are driving at is obvious. And for somebody who employs an HSJ like fanatacism for Alonso I thought the end of this post tremendously amusing, and ironic.

I'm not a fan of any particular driver. And, while I see what faults Fisi has, he fared no where near as badly against Alonso (particularly in 2005) as slavering Alonso fans would have the world believe.

I should mention, btw, that I love Alonso on-track. I think he is a very exciting racer. But, I can't stand all this fanaticism and the blindness caused by it.

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#102 BMW_F1

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:23

Originally posted by HP
For me, Massa might be the joker. In FP1 on his best laps he was hindered twice by Trulli. And in FP2 he came in too hot on the softs and almost collected the wall.

If he gets the qualification right, he might win on Sunday.


and his setup is apparently working for him..

#103 HP

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:28

Originally posted by BMW_F1


Alonso recently said that Renault does not have a simulator.

Given Renaults budget and Flavio's preference to spend money were it really counts, I understand that fully.

The simulators main purpose is not for the drivers to learn the track, but to improve the car. However if the engineering team is confident about the results they get then a simulator is to some degree redundant.

#104 HP

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:31

Originally posted by BMW_F1


and his setup is apparently working for him..

We'll see how it goes over the weekend. The track is changing.

Thats an interesting issue. As for qualification much cooler track temperatures are expected than they were today or they expect for the race on Sunday.

#105 karlth

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:40

Originally posted by BMW_F1


Alonso recently said that Renault does not have a simulator.


Alonso said after signing with McLaren that their simulator made the Renault one look like a Playstation.

He obviously meant it literally then. :)

#106 karlth

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:41

Originally posted by HP
For me, Massa might be the joker. In FP1 on his best laps he was hindered twice by Trulli. And in FP2 he came in too hot on the softs and almost collected the wall.

If he gets the qualification right, he might win on Sunday.


He is also the most likely one to stuff it into the wall during the race. He is still a bit erratic.

#107 Arioch

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:42

After watching practice2, I'd just like to welcome back an old friend of mine, the F1 Power Slide. :love: :wave: :kiss:

A lot of drivers looked inconsistent. Going wide, back-ends stepping out under braking, locking up... Can't wait for Saturday night! :D :D :D

#108 p432rpp

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:43

Originally posted by HP
We'll see how it goes over the weekend. The track is changing.

Thats an interesting issue. As for qualification much cooler track temperatures are expected than they were today or they expect for the race on Sunday.


It is also supposed to be less windy for Saturday and Sunday than it was for FP1+2.

#109 HP

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:46

Originally posted by karlth


He is also the most likely one to stuff it into the wall during the race. He is still a bit erratic.

Are you feeding a myth?

From last years Ferrari and McLaren drivers, who didn't put his his car into a wall when it mattered? (Not counting Silverstone obviously)

#110 Orin

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:47

Originally posted by as65p

You try really hard to reach HSJ-like delusional heights today. If that was indeed your intention: nice effort!


Pretty funny coming from someone who likes to portray Alonso as a little saint, a pure spirit who was badly abused by the British. :cry:

At least HSJ doesn't scream "fanboy!" at anyone who thinks Alonso acted like an arse last year.

All angst was saying, as I understand it, was that Fisi got a rough deal at Renault and is now looking pretty sharp once more - if anything blaming Briatore - which you misconstrued as another hate crime against your idol. :rolleyes:

#111 Orin

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:50

Originally posted by Arioch
After watching practice2, I'd just like to welcome back an old friend of mine, the F1 Power Slide. :love: :wave: :kiss:

A lot of drivers looked inconsistent. Going wide, back-ends stepping out under braking, locking up... Can't wait for Saturday night! :D :D :D


When they get slicks back the tyres won't be so susceptible to such shenanigans - then I think this will become even more pronounced. :D

#112 primer

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:52

Originally posted by jokuvaan
Midpack is so close that I wouldnt make any season predictions at this point.


Not only close, but the order of competetiveness is also somewhat unexpected. Is this a one-off or something more permanent we will have to wait and see. :

#113 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:57

Good to get some sort of confirmation that it really is close between Ferrari and McLaren. Only in the first session though, did Räikkönen look 100% as convincing as I'd pictured he'd be. But as ever, fuel loads are probably the answer to his pace being slower than Massa and the McLaren's in the second session.

I expected BMW to be the third best team, being in a vacuum a bit like last year (just with a smaller gap than last year, to those immediately infront and behind) for this first GP, but I think both Renault (Alonso) and Red Bull are just a smidgen quicker.
Hard to get a read on Toyota and Williams.

Force India a positive surprise. Maybe they'll claw their way into Q2.

#114 primer

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:57

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
And Williams fans, the team needs to have a Japanese driver, they are paying some of Williams bills!


Never understood how and why this approach should be viable for godzillas like Toyota. Should they please the so called "home" market or the one where they get the largest sales from? Proftis? Emerging markets?

Just choose one on competetiveness and availability, kiss etc.

#115 karlth

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 13:58

Originally posted by HP
Are you feeding a myth?


I wouldn't define it as a myth. Additionally to his performances in slippery conditions Massa dropped it quite a few times testing and of course yesterday.

Just that I would trust the other 3 top line drivers more to keep it on the road in the difficult conditions we have seen so far.

#116 Galko877

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:00

Originally posted by HP
For me, Massa might be the joker. In FP1 on his best laps he was hindered twice by Trulli. And in FP2 he came in too hot on the softs and almost collected the wall.

If he gets the qualification right, he might win on Sunday.


Agreed. If he keeps it together he might give Kimi as much a run for his money as last year, which would be good to see after being so written of by people. To me, speed-wise he still seems to be on Kimi's heels. But of course, he has to avoid mistakes, that should be the more difficult task for him. :|

#117 F1_conman

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:06

Originally posted by Galko877


Agreed. If he keeps it together he might give Kimi as much a run for his money as last year, which would be good to see after being so written of by people. To me, speed-wise he still seems to be on Kimi's heels. But of course, he has to avoid mistakes, that should be the more difficult task for him. :|


Massa is an excellent qualifier and average racer in my view. IMO don't expect him to win WDC this year.

#118 Hacklerf

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by Fatgadget


Durant reminds me of Arsene Wenger when it comes to his team's transgressions....I didn't see anything! :lol:


Don't bring Arsene into this, he is a honest gentlemen :)

#119 Suntrek

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:10

Originally posted by Orin


Pretty funny coming from someone who likes to portray Alonso as a little saint, a pure spirit who was badly abused by the British. :cry:

At least HSJ doesn't scream "fanboy!" at anyone who thinks Alonso acted like an arse last year.

All angst was saying, as I understand it, was that Fisi got a rough deal at Renault and is now looking pretty sharp once more - if anything blaming Briatore - which you misconstrued as another hate crime against your idol. :rolleyes:


But you don't hesitate to scream fanboy to all and everyone who has the nerve to defend Alonso in any way whatsoever. :stoned:

And for poor victimized Fisi: we all know that Flav was running around in the garage wearing a black mask sabotaging Fisi's car. We all know, dear. Same story in 2005 and 2006 and 2007. He lost out to Heikki too, remember? It's amazing that Fisi put up with all this for several years. And it's even more amazing that he was disappointed that his Renault contract wasn't renewed. I would have thought he should have jumped for joy at the prospect of driving for another team that didn't so badly mistreat him. :cry:

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#120 Melbourne Park

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:11

Originally posted by karlth


Alonso said after signing with McLaren that their simulator made the Renault one look like a Playstation.

He obviously meant it literally then. :)

I had this debate a couple of months ago. I could not find the quote from Alonso, where he said McLaren's one made the Renault one feel like a Playstation's! But I claimed that story, and was rebuked, and asked to prove it. Anyway, the Renault PR chappy (I have forgotten his moniker) came onto the thread, and said that Renault does not - negative - have a simulator!!

Now - I'll go and try to find that quote! I'll edit his and post it!

Here it is:

Originally posted by bpl
Nelson is right, Renault doesn't have a simulator.


The thread is here: 2007 Looking Like 2008

#121 angst

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:12

Originally posted by HP
Are you feeding a myth?

From last years Ferrari and McLaren drivers, who didn't put his his car into a wall when it mattered? (Not counting Silverstone obviously)


Well, if you don't count China, then neither did Hamilton. And if you don't count Canada, then neither did Alonso. We shall see if it is a myth as the season progresses. I have said before that I think that of all the drivers I think Massa is the one that will be 'found out' by the removal of TC and all that goes with it. I am, however, looking forward to being proved entirely wrong, as he seems to be a genuinely nice fellow.

#122 karlth

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:14

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I had this debate a couple of months ago. I could not find the quote from Alonso, where he said McLaren's one made the Renault one feel like a Playstation's! But I claimed that story, and was rebuked, and asked to prove it. Anyway, the Renault PR chappy (I have forgotten his moniker) came onto the thread, and said that Renault does not - negative - have a simulator!!

Now - I'll go and try to find that quote! I'll edit his and post it!


There is something about it here:

http://forums.autosp...656#post2663656

#123 krferrari07

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:14

Ferrari and McLaren looking very very close once again!!

This is going to be a cracker!! :clap:

#124 rodlamas

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:15

Originally posted by race addicted
Good to get some sort of confirmation that it really is close between Ferrari and McLaren. Only in the first session though, did Räikkönen look 100% as convincing as I'd pictured he'd be. But as ever, fuel loads are probably the answer to his pace being slower than Massa and the McLaren's in the second session.


I just can't agree Raikkonen was running higher fuel loads than both the Mclarens AND his teammate.

Normally the procedure is the same for every team during practice, 50-60 kgs of fuel, why on Earth would he run heavier or all three drivers would run lighter.

I know the expectation around Raikkonen and the F2008 has been very high after what happened in winter testing and the claims that for the second year he would have been much better than on his first.

But he can have a bad weekend, maybe his teammate is better than we thought and/or maybe the Mclarens are a real threat.

#125 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:15

If DC too did a Q-sim - and my guess is he most likely did - he'll have to do better tomorrow, or he'll be the one sitting on row six or seven.
(Looking back to last year, he wasn't on Webber's pace when they did their Q-sims in FP3, so perhaps Webber's strenght is amplified on this track. The reason I took FP3 as my basis for the comparison was that the lap from DC in Q1 wasn't representative, as he had to take evasive action when a car went off infront.)

If the fuel loads are fairly similar, I can see Webber putting it on row three.
But we'll get a clearer idea after third free.

#126 as65p

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:16

Originally posted by angst


But is that what I said? You might like to read what I wrote. The thing is, you haven't said it here, that Alonso is great, but your posts are predictable, the true nature of what you are driving at is obvious. And for somebody who employs an HSJ like fanatacism for Alonso I thought the end of this post tremendously amusing, and ironic.

I'm not a fan of any particular driver. And, while I see what faults Fisi has, he fared no where near as badly against Alonso (particularly in 2005) as slavering Alonso fans would have the world believe.

I should mention, btw, that I love Alonso on-track. I think he is a very exciting racer. But, I can't stand all this fanaticism and the blindness caused by it.


Then you should probably adress a person which this concerns, not just randomly jump on the first poster who disagrees with your anti-Briatore / anti-Alonso tirades.

In our "conversation" you just plucked some topics (which obviously are of great concern to you) out of thin air and got pretty excited about it. The only problem is that your arguments had nothing to do with my posts, just with your assumptions what I might think and what I could have written.

Is it really that hard to stick to particular arguments in particular threads instead of broadly attacking posters based on (often enough plain wrong) assumptions about their opinions?

You wrote "the true nature of what you are driving at is obvious"
Now that was at least funny - coming from you, one of the most "driven" on this board.

You might not be a fan of any driver, but is seems your dislike for some is just as strong, and it leads to the same symptoms: biased and highly opinionated tirades as in your post #56 in this thread. So after one free practice you've already decided that Piquet is getting screwed by Renault. On second thought, does that still sound like a reasonable claim to you?

Anyone who has watched for more than half a season would be able to detect the reason Fisi was no.2 at Renault: while he can be brilliant on occassion, he has never shown the mental strength and determination to lead a top team. His best moments have always been where nobody expected much of him; as soon as he feels the pressure he tends to fade. It hasn't even much to do with Alonso, put him against any other WDC-calibre driver in a front-running team and it would develope exactly the same. In such a situation he would always look like a no.2, just as Barrichello. It doesn't take Briatore's supposed Alonso-bias (which, BTW, he would drop in a millisecond as soon as another of his drivers becomes a better prospect) to make that happen.

#127 angst

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:16

Originally posted by Suntrek


But you don't hesitate to scream fanboy to all and everyone who has the nerve to defend Alonso in any way whatsoever. :stoned:

And for poor victimized Fisi: we all know that Flav was running around in the garage wearing a black mask sabotaging Fisi's car. We all know, dear. Same story in 2005 and 2006 and 2007. He lost out to Heikki too, remember? It's amazing that Fisi put up with all this for several years. And it's even more amazing that he was disappointed that his Renault contract wasn't renewed. I would have thought he should have jumped for joy at the prospect of driving for another team that didn't so badly mistreat him. :cry:


The sad thing being, nobody was attacking Alonso, so no need to defend him. Except, it goes further than that. One must deny secondary treatment of his teammates (despite the clear messages put out by the team principal), whilst making up stories about McLaren not being 'cuddly' enough with Alonso, of favouring his teammate - in order to further the myth making. It's not about defending Alonso, its about agrandising him, of making him infallible, of never being able to face his weaknesses and faults.

#128 HP

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:17

Originally posted by karlth


I wouldn't define it as a myth. Additionally to his performances in slippery conditions Massa dropped it quite a few times testing and of course yesterday.

Just that I would trust the other 3 top line drivers more to keep it on the road in the difficult conditions we have seen so far.

And yet last year? Who binned it into the walll in rainy conditions? And Kimi in Monaco? Those were difficult conditions, not? And while he was passed by Alonso for victory in rainy conditions, from what was said at that time including his team, we can't blame it entirely on Massa, altough he isn't the fastest in the wet.

Felipe's weakness is IMO in his consistency, that he has won his races so far from pole position and hasn't shown that he is able to win a race otherwise.

We'll see how this seasons goes.

#129 Galko877

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:17

Originally posted by F1_conman


Massa is an excellent qualifier and average racer in my view. IMO don't expect him to win WDC this year.


I don't expect him to win the WDC but it would be a nice surprise as I like him the most from the four top guys (two McLaren, two Ferrari drivers). But I'm perfectly aware of his weaknesses.

#130 Melbourne Park

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:17

Ferrari often look slow on Friday though.

Anyway I think KR was under a second slower than hamilton, and then we might add the fuel, or that maybe he wasn't pushing the car, but rather testing for the race?

#131 as65p

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:19

Originally posted by Orin


Pretty funny coming from someone who likes to portray Alonso as a little saint, a pure spirit who was badly abused by the British. :cry:

At least HSJ doesn't scream "fanboy!" at anyone who thinks Alonso acted like an arse last year.

All angst was saying, as I understand it, was that Fisi got a rough deal at Renault and is now looking pretty sharp once more - if anything blaming Briatore - which you misconstrued as another hate crime against your idol. :rolleyes:


Ahh, you couldn't let that bandwagon pass... so predictable.

As last time, I challenge you to find one, only one post of me where I "portray Alonso as a little saint".

If you manage that, we may talk. Otherwise stop stalking me, okay?

#132 Melbourne Park

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:19

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
I had this debate a couple of months ago. I could not find the quote from Alonso, where he said McLaren's one made the Renault one feel like a Playstation's! But I claimed that story, and was rebuked, and asked to prove it. Anyway, the Renault PR chappy (I have forgotten his moniker) came onto the thread, and said that Renault does not - negative - have a simulator!!

Now - I'll go and try to find that quote! I'll edit his and post it!

Here it is:

Originally posted by bpl
Nelson is right, Renault doesn't have a simulator.


The thread is here: 2007 Looking Like 2008



#133 race addicted

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:20

Originally posted by rodlamas


I just can't agree Raikkonen was running higher fuel loads than both the Mclarens AND his teammate.

Normally the procedure is the same for every team during practice, 50-60 kgs of fuel, why on Earth would he run heavier or all three drivers would run lighter.

I know the expectation around Raikkonen and the F2008 has been very high after what happened in winter testing and the claims that for the second year he would have been much better than on his first.

But he can have a bad weekend, maybe his teammate is better than we thought and/or maybe the Mclarens are a real threat.


Why do you say "why on earth"? It's not like it would be something unheard of, totally out of this world, if the two Ferrari's ran slightly different race fuel loads. I strongly doubt a two stopper will be split into three 33% stints, so it could indeed be that Massa ran a load that was lighter.
I have my opinion on Massa; I rate him highly especially in the "pace-ranking", lower on the list of "complete drivers", but I think Räikkönen is quicker from what we saw in FP1. Then again he wasn't happy after second free, so we'll have to wait and see.

#134 HP

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:22

Originally posted by race addicted
If DC too did a Q-sim - and my guess is he most likely did - he'll have to do better tomorrow, or he'll be the one sitting on row six or seven.
(Looking back to last year, he wasn't on Webber's pace when they did their Q-sims in FP3, so perhaps Webber's strenght is amplified on this track. The reason I took FP3 as my basis for the comparison was that the lap from DC in Q1 wasn't representative, as he had to take evasive action when a car went off infront.)

If the fuel loads are fairly similar, I can see Webber putting it on row three.
But we'll get a clearer idea after third free.

DC didn't have time to dial in the car like Webber did. DC only did 5 laps in FP1. But so far Webber has been doing better in qualifying, probably won't change this season either.

#135 noikeee

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:27

Ferrari - impressive in the first practice, not so much in the second. It's obvious they will be fighting with McLaren for the win, but I can't say for sure who's quicker at the moment. In terms of drivers, I was feeling optimistic and thinking Kimi's slow pace in the 2nd practice was due to a high fuel load - but after reading this I'm not so sure. Massa might have genuinely found a little extra speed with his setup, altho in practice he made the biggest mistake of the top contenders - I'm going with the "myth" that this year he'll be a bit erratic and stuff up good races with spins like that.

McLaren - at some point during practice I said the Ferrari looked the only easy car to drive, but after watching that final onboard lap with Lewis, I take it back: that McLaren was ultra-smooth in the final corner, where all others were needing massive opposite lock corrections! I don't think Lewis' "mistakes" were worrying, it's just his way of finding the limit, he did the same all year in 2007's free practice sessions: going slightly over the grass every single turn until he knows exactly where the limit is everywhere. His sensibility for it is impressive. The only place where that turned out to be a bad idea was at Monaco when he hit the wall.

BMW - I don't think they're as bad as some people are saying, but considering these later reports that they were sandbagging through winter, I was expecting something more. Reliability seems worrying, and in pace I think they're no better than on par with Alonso and Webber. At least on the hands of Kubica - I think the idea that he's quicker than Heidfeld now is true.

Renault - now that is a hard car to drive, Alonso and Piquet were all the time on the grass. It seems clear Alonso fans will have to accept that this car is nowhere near quick enough to fight for wins (altho it might be enough for best of the rest), while Piquet fans will have reasons to be very worried. He should've done a quicker laptime by now.

Williams - disappointment of the day, skipping FP1 will have lost them precious time of setup fine-tuning, right now they don't seem quick enough for beating Red Bull/Renault/BMW. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to Nakajima for now, after how good he seemed during the winter.

Red Bull - encouraging times, but Webber was surely on a qualy sim. Should fight with Renault and BMW, and maybe win that fight.

Toyota - seemed good at the start of the day, then faded away. Still better than Williams. They did seem to have built a very entertaining car for the onboard cameras, just look at the way Glock and Trulli were using opposite lock!

Force India - impressively quick but a total beast to handle, Fisi and Sutil were more time on the grass than on the tarmac. I think Fisi will make it into Q2 and that would be a good result for him, but remember he was given a better car than Sutil for this weekend.

Honda - a little better than what they seemed during the winter, still pretty damn bad for a team with the resources they have.

Toro Rosso - lots of laps but the times aren't great. They might be beaten by Honda and/or Force India. Vettel seems quicker than Bourdais.

Super Aguri - I was expecting them to be last, but not this slow, given the sort of miracles they managed to perform the last 2 years. Still, well done to have made it into Melbourne.

Ban on TC and engine braking - approved. The cars are really entertaining to watch! Best moment of the day was a massive slide by Hamilton on the exit of that fast chicane, way over 200kph for sure and completely sideways.

#136 angst

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:34

Originally posted by as65p


Then you should probably adress a person which this concerns, not just randomly jump on the first poster who disagrees with your anti-Briatore / anti-Alonso tirades.


Well, it was you who jumped into the conversation, clearly viewing the post as an "anti-Alonso tirade" - which it was not. It was you who drew the comparison to Kovalainen and then denied that any comparison with Kovalainen was necessary (after I had answered that particular point) and then reverted to the "Alonso destroyed Fisi at Renault, and Fisi didn't have secondary treatment and it's false to claim so" argument. This is, as I have said, all about agrandising Alonso, ignoring his weaknesses.

Originally posted by as65p
In our "conversation" you just plucked some topics (which obviously are of great concern to you) out of thin air and got pretty excited about it. The only problem is that your arguments had nothing to do with my posts, just with your assumptions what I might think and what I could have written.


But you've even stated here that you responded to what you perceived to be an "anti-Alonso tirade". So, to try and claim that what you are driving at is not what I have said is clear, whilst telling me that the reason that you've entered the "conversation" is to do exactly what I have said you are doing...... make your mind up. What is it you were saying then?

Originally posted by as65p
Is it really that hard to stick to particular arguments in particular threads instead of broadly attacking posters based on (often enough plain wrong) assumptions about their opinions?


See above, and then read back this post from yourself; "But sure, you know better than all of them, and if it wasn't for Flavio, Fisi would be a multiple champion by now...

You try really hard to reach HSJ-like delusional heights today. If that was indeed your intention: nice effort! "

Kettles, pots....that kind of thing. Despite that I have not said that, didn't you 'assume' that that is what I was saying?

Originally posted by as65p
You wrote "the true nature of what you are driving at is obvious"
Now that was at least funny - coming from you, one of the most "driven" on this board.


And how does this tie in with your last point? Hmmm...

And, perhaps you missed this; "I'm not a fan of any particular driver. And, while I see what faults Fisi has, he fared no where near as badly against Alonso (particularly in 2005) as slavering Alonso fans would have the world believe.

I should mention, btw, that I love Alonso on-track. I think he is a very exciting racer. But, I can't stand all this fanaticism and the blindness caused by it. "

So, what is it I'm "driven" by, or perhaps to?

I'm not a fan of any particular driver. And, while I see what faults Fisi has, he fared no where near as badly against Alonso (particularly in 2005) as slavering Alonso fans would have the world believe.

Originally posted by as65p
You might not be a fan of any driver, but is seems your dislike for some is just as strong, and it leads to the same symptoms: biased and highly opinionated tirades as in your post #56 in this thread. So after one free practice you've already decided that Piquet is getting screwed by Renault. On second thought, does that still sound like a reasonable claim to you?


Again, I refer you to my last response. As for my "claim" that Piquet is "being screwed by Renault"......funny, but I don't remember making that claim.

Originally posted by as65p
Anyone who has watched for more than half a season would be able to detect the reason Fisi was no.2 at Renault: while he can be brilliant on occassion, he has never shown the mental strength and determination to lead a top team. His best moments have always been where nobody expected much of him; as soon as he feels the pressure he tends to fade. It hasn't even much to do with Alonso, put him against any other WDC-calibre driver in a front-running team and it would develope exactly the same. In such a situation he would always look like a no.2, just as Barrichello. It doesn't take Briatore's supposed Alonso-bias (which, BTW, he would drop in a millisecond as soon as another of his drivers becomes a better prospect) to make that happen.


Anyone who has listened to Flavio for any length of time for the past couple of seasons, who has witnessed Alonso's reaction to being beaten by his teammate (and Pat Symonds has said some interesting things on this topic), anyone who understands that Briatore not only personally managed Alonso, but that he owned the TV rights for F1 in Spain, can probably see a rather different picture emerge from the fog.....

#137 Clatter

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:35

Originally posted by paranoik0
BMW - I don't think they're as bad as some people are saying, but considering these later reports that they were sandbagging through winter, I was expecting something more.


I totally fail to understand why anyone continues to claim teams are sandbagging. It makes absolutly no sense whatsoever for a team to hold back.

#138 HP

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:40

Originally posted by paranoik0
Super Aguri - I was expecting them to be last, but not this slow, given the sort of miracles they managed to perform the last 2 years. Still, well done to have made it into Melbourne.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/65673

This pretty much explains why they were so slow.

#139 Fatgadget

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:42

Originally posted by Clatter


I totally fail to understand why anyone continues to claim teams are sandbagging. It makes absolutly no sense whatsoever for a team to hold back.


Presicely.How can you collate meaningfull data when you are not going balls to the wall?

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#140 noikeee

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:47

Originally posted by Clatter


I totally fail to understand why anyone continues to claim teams are sandbagging. It makes absolutly no sense whatsoever for a team to hold back.


I know, but we've had:

- drivers like Alonso saying BMW have looked suspiciously heavy during most of the winter, and looked like "playing with fuel loads"
- Heidfeld recently saying he thinks they're only 2 tenths below Ferrari and McLaren
- several reports saying the Valencia times weren't real, and they actually had managed much better laps

I think that's enough to raise some doubts...

#141 rearwheelskid00

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:51

Button looked smooth. I expect we'll be seeing more of him this year. :)
Did Coulthard run out of fuel after setting his fast lap, or are there more reliabity worries for Red Bull?

#142 Clatter

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 14:57

Originally posted by paranoik0


I know, but we've had:

- drivers like Alonso saying BMW have looked suspiciously heavy during most of the winter, and looked like "playing with fuel loads"
- Heidfeld recently saying he thinks they're only 2 tenths below Ferrari and McLaren
- several reports saying the Valencia times weren't real, and they actually had managed much better laps

I think that's enough to raise some doubts...


Not to me.

Year after year we have these claims, yet come race time the balance is pretty much the way it was during testing. I'm sure all teams play around with fuel loads and other permatations to try and get the best out of their car, but no one is going to deliberately slow themselves down as they will learn less that way.

#143 color

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:05

Originally posted by Clatter


Not to me.


yeah, now we are 100% convinced...

#144 Orin

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:12

Originally posted by Suntrek

But you don't hesitate to scream fanboy to all and everyone who has the nerve to defend Alonso in any way whatsoever. :stoned:


That's not true: a few Alonso fans are mature enough to admit (what this website and others nowadays report as simple truth) that Alonso sought number one status from McLaren while denying it in the press; also that instant retribution wasn't the best way to handle what happened in Hungary; I suspect some can even bring themselves to admit to the likelihood that he tried blackmailing RD (after all, why would RD invent the story? And one which fits so neatly with Mosley's recollection of events?)

It's like the Schumacher fans of yore, there were always those capable to accept his flaws and supporting him regardless (to whom I say "kudos" :) ), then we had the (bizarrely, usually English) Rottweilers going into attack mode at the slightest suggestion that their hero might have been remiss on one or two occasions - I see at least one still floating around these boards, most have now left or been forcibly removed.

Alonso behaved poorly last year, to refuse to accept his shortcomings is somewhat 'blind' to say the least, but worse are the scapegoats required to support that position: the Guardian is cast as an untrustworthy jingoistic rag (in truth it's a leftish anally politically-correct broadsheet with the best sports reportage of any of the British newspapers, rivalling anything from other countries); McLaren become the team who hire a 2xWDC, then abandon their long-held equality policy in favour of an English rookie driver. No doubt the whole spygate thing helped, allowing Alonso supporters to point out that the team appeared fundamentally untrustworthy. All this crap thrown around because 'their man' behaved foolishly and childishly for the whole season. :rolleyes:

#145 Bogs

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:13

About BMW,

No one said they are driving slower than their car can go. However, depending on fuel loads, your times may look very different, even if you are going balls-out.

Even such a thing as Friday practices. They may be doing (and have done many times in the past on Friday's), a very different program from most people. Again, depending on fuel loads, and when they run their lighter laps- when the track is green, or when there is more grip, and which tires they have gone with will play a huge role on the lap time.

I'm not saying that it's guarranteed that they will be smoking fast, but from the way they have done things in the past, it is still really difficult to judge them. We will have a much better idea after qualifying (assuming they are running similar strategies to everyone else). Though they have take some really risky strategies in the past.

#146 as65p

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:14

Originally posted by angst


Well, it was you who jumped into the conversation, clearly viewing the post as an "anti-Alonso tirade" - which it was not. It was you who drew the comparison to Kovalainen and then denied that any comparison with Kovalainen was necessary (after I had answered that particular point) and ]then reverted to the "Alonso destroyed Fisi at Renault, and Fisi didn't have secondary treatment and it's false to claim so" argument. This is, as I have said, all about agrandising Alonso, ignoring his weaknesses.


I did not say the part in italics. It's useless to discuss if you can't stop putting words into my mouth.

But you've even stated here that you responded to what you perceived to be an "anti-Alonso tirade". So, to try and claim that what you are driving at is not what I have said is clear, whilst telling me that the reason that you've entered the "conversation" is to do exactly what I have said you are doing...... make your mind up. What is it you were saying then?


I'm saying that with your post I replied to (#56), you, IMO, accused Flavio of holding Fisi back / not giving him a fair chance at Renault. Then you advised us to watch the same happening to Nelsinho.

Isn't that what you said?

See above, and then read back this post from yourself; "But sure, you know better than all of them, and if it wasn't for Flavio, Fisi would be a multiple champion by now...

You try really hard to reach HSJ-like delusional heights today. If that was indeed your intention: nice effort! "

Kettles, pots....that kind of thing. Despite that I have not said that, didn't you 'assume' that that is what I was saying?


Continued from above: try to explain in plain english what's the CONTENT of your post #56. I'm even ready to be teached new meanings of english words...;)

And, perhaps you missed this; "I'm not a fan of any particular driver. And, while I see what faults Fisi has, he fared no where near as badly against Alonso (particularly in 2005) as slavering Alonso fans would have the world believe.

I should mention, btw, that I love Alonso on-track. I think he is a very exciting racer. But, I can't stand all this fanaticism and the blindness caused by it. "

So, what is it I'm "driven" by, or perhaps to?


Okay, I think I understood by now that you have some deep issues with what you perceive as "slavering Alonso fans". But if it's not too much to ask, could you probably refrain from blindly attacking me because of that issue of yours? Or, at least wait until I write something that fits into the bogeyman-picture you built yourself.

Again, I refer you to my last response. As for my "claim" that Piquet is "being screwed by Renault"......funny, but I don't remember making that claim.


Okay for the third time. Whats that sentence of yours supposed to mean:
"(likewise, watch as 'wonderkid' Piquet is allowed so much room to challenge his teammate.... )",
if not that in your opinion Piquet won't be given a chance by Briatore?

Anyone who has listened to Flavio for any length of time for the past couple of seasons, who has witnessed Alonso's reaction to being beaten by his teammate (and Pat Symonds has said some interesting things on this topic), anyone who understands that Briatore not only personally managed Alonso, but that he owned the TV rights for F1 in Spain, can probably see a rather different picture emerge from the fog.....


No, really not "anyone".

Some have only seen a Renault pairing in 05/06 from which Alonso emerged as the clearly stronger driver with obvious WDC potential, which was exploited by Briatore to the full by giving him preference over the weaker Fisichella.

It's fine with me to disagree with that policy of Briatore, in fact in absolute sense I do myself. Equality would be nice, if only it were not completely impossible to achieve in real (racing-)life. If two drivers are nearly equal in ability, any attempt will inevetably lead to a mighty clash. If one driver is clearly better, a natural order will emerge - thats what happened with Senna/Berger, Häkkinen/Coulthard, Schumacher/Barrichello and also with Alonso/Fisichella.

I can't see how Briatore deserves to be bashed particularily for how he led Renault in recent years. In fact he did the common thing. The last attempts to do it differently (Williams '03 / McLaren '07) led to defeat.

I suspect you'll tell me that you didn't bash Briatore... which begs the question (another time) :

What, really, did you try to say in post #56?

#147 noikeee

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:15

Another thing about BMW: last year they often looked slow in friday, then would pick up the pace in qualifying and the race when it mattered. Maybe their standard testing/practice procedure uses heavier fuel tanks than most teams.

All I'm saying is I don't believe they'll be nowhere as bad as 12th and 15th when it matters, much like Raikkonen won't still be as bad as 6th, and how Red Bull won't be as good as 2nd and 5th. It's just the typical practice session randomness.

#148 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:17

Originally posted by paranoik0
Another thing about BMW: last year they often looked slow in friday, then would pick up the pace in qualifying and the race when it mattered. Maybe their standard testing/practice procedure uses heavier fuel tanks than most teams.

All I'm saying is I don't believe they'll be nowhere as bad as 12th and 15th when it matters, much like Raikkonen won't still be as bad as 6th, and how Red Bull won't be as good as 2nd and 5th. It's just the typical practice session randomness.


Agreed 100%

We'll know where everybody is after quali. Until then, it's all BS.

CC

#149 jokuvaan

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:19

We'll know where everybody is after quali.


We dont know fuel levels in final quali session.

#150 Orin

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 15:19

Originally posted by as65p


Ahh, you couldn't let that bandwagon pass... so predictable.

As last time, I challenge you to find one, only one post of me where I "portray Alonso as a little saint".

If you manage that, we may talk. Otherwise stop stalking me, okay?


I'd prefer it if you didn't feel the need to drag this into another Alonso thread, sadly you misconstrued angst's post on Fisi as an attack on your favourite, thus starting this whole OT strand. BTW, use your ignore list, but don't expect me to stop commenting on your more wayward posts... and "stalking"? please grow up.