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Get Piquet Jnr out of F1 now. People like him are what is wrong with F1


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#101 pacwest

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 02:03

Originally posted by Domination


the place isn't the problem here. it's the place relative to the team mate that is. i wanna see how his father compared to his team mate on his F1 debut too. someone dig up the archives will ya.


http://en.wikipedia....rman_Grand_Prix

Ertl wasn't a two time champion either.

Here are his stellar stats as of that day:

Championships 0
Wins 0
Podium finishes 0
Career points 0
Pole positions 0
Fastest laps 0

Here are Piquet Jnr's teammate's stats as of this day:

Championships 2 (2005, 2006)
Wins 19
Podium finishes 49
Pole positions 17
Career points 490
Fastest laps 11

I'm going to cut Piquet some slack, maybe everyone else here should.

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#102 StefanV

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 02:10

I saw this thread appear yesterday. I read the opening post and laughed to myself. "That will be deleted quickly", I thought.
Now it is The Thread, over hundred posts. Uglier than ever. Is that common practice here, that someone post flame baits and then everybody is jumping on that bait and stumble over each other to get good a taste of Troll?

Seriously, the opening post was hardly worth a reply, was it?

#103 ensign14

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:17

Originally posted by AyePirate
The Speed broadcast said that Nelson Sr. was not at the race. I was a little bit surprised.

Nor was Nelson Jr.

#104 Suntrek

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:28

Originally posted by ensign14

Nor was Nelson Jr.


:rotfl:

#105 Juan Kerr

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:39

Was that Piquet I saw careering down the inside of two cars into the first corner and causing a big accident ?

#106 mach4

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 06:57

1978 - Nelson Piquet Sr. in his first GP:
Qualifies 21st and retires from the race on lap 31.

2008 - Nelson Piquet Jr. in his first GP:
Qualifies 21st and retires from the race on lap 31.

:eek:

Source:
http://www.forix.com...19780011022&c=0
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/65801

#107 Domination

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:06

Originally posted by mach4
1978 - Nelson Piquet Sr. in his first GP:
Qualifies 21st and retires from the race on lap 31.

2008 - Nelson Piquet Jr. in his first GP:
Qualifies 21st and retires from the race on lap 31.

:eek:

Source:
http://www.forix.com...19780011022&c=0
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/65801


Nelson Jr. 3xWDC here we come.

#108 Tigershark

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 07:08

Nice find mach4! :up:

#109 pacwest

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:08

Thread killed.

#110 Durant

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:10

He looks out of his depth. 2-3 seconds a lap slower than Alonso in the race. He will be out if he doesnt improve on that. Interested to see how he does next week. Does he know sepang?

#111 VoidNT

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:16

Originally posted by mach4
1978 - Nelson Piquet Sr. in his first GP:
Qualifies 21st and retires from the race on lap 31.

2008 - Nelson Piquet Jr. in his first GP:
Qualifies 21st and retires from the race on lap 31.

:eek:


Apparently Piquet Sr. was lucky to be the only driver for the Ensign team back then! :D

#112 primer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 08:19

The only time NP's car was visible on the track was when he had parked it to retire. Unfortunately the driver was nowhere to be seen. Renault are slow, but Alonso also has had troubles this weekend and did so much better.

What a disastrous debut :|. I hope Renault continue to provide him with support and perhaps even some yoga, meditation etc to calm down the nerves. Give him until mid-season. :o

I think his father not being present was the correct decision. He won't be around forever and junior has to learn to face these things on his own. A very "charactrer building" debut for sure.

#113 Ghostrider

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 09:10

Originally posted by ensign14

Nor was Nelson Jr.


:lol: :up:

#114 tormave

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 09:20

Originally posted by F1 Tor.


I can understand peoples' frustration over him not performing well yesterday but I think it's a bit premature. I mean Heikki sucked the joint out his first quali with Renault and rebounded nicely.

Heikki was 13th on the grid last year, one place behind from what Alonso managed yesterday. Remeber also that when Heikki did that Renault was thought to have a championship calibre car, which we now know it certainly wasn't.

#115 GreyKitten

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 09:28

Originally posted by PiquetPete
Goodness me lots of you have gone mad! Come Silverstone time I will start forming a view on Piquets pace - not now! I expect him to steadily improve and gain confidence - hasn't had a good start but that's all we can read into it for now. If Renault saw his lap times and data from a years testing and thought he was useless they would not have made him a race driver! Wake up!


Totally agree. Watched him through GP2 and there's no question that the lad has talent. Maybe he'll make it in F1, maybe he won't, but it's way too early to write him off. There's no way Renault would have given him the drive if they thought he couldn't hack it - it's not as if he's the only driver available.

#116 paffett4F1

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:21

Too early to write him off yet.....

Pat Symonds, Executive Director of Engineering: "Nelson's difficult weekend continued as he got hit on the start line which caused considerable damage to the rear of the car. He found it very difficult to drive, which explains his slow lap times and maybe even his retirement as we are still investigating what happened."

....... remember Heiki last year and look at him now.

#117 zakeriath

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:27

[i]

....... remember Heiki last year and look at him now. [/B]

But there is no chance Piquet is moving to Mclaren ;)

#118 paffett4F1

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:33

Originally posted by zakeriath


But there is no chance Piquet is moving to Mclaren ;)


No, but if he had not improved from that first appearance neither would've Heiki

#119 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:57

heikki was nowhere near as bad, but to be fair he didn't get hit...he kept going off, but at least he appeared to be moving/racing

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#120 alfa1

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 11:15

Originally posted by paffett4F1
He found it very difficult to drive....


Listening to his radio, he asked for TWO whole turns less front wing on the car at his first stop.
Normally drivers might ask for half to one turn, but two whole turns indicates the thing was a b***h to drive at that point.

I havnt seen a tape of the race (just my view in the grandstands) and I'm just going by memory, but wasnt there a short safety car point where Alonso pitted during the safety car, and then one lap later the safety car pulled in and they pitted Piquet under green conditions putting him 30 seconds behind everyone else in the field.
Correct me if I'm thinking of someone else. :)

#121 glorius&victorius

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 11:29

This was a absolute more than rubbish performance.

Offcourse we wont hear the same words of Flavio for his new batti boy

#122 Durant

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:48

Didnt piquet run Hamilton to the wire in gp2 a spec series? And he was apparently a better qualifier so he obviously has talent. This indicates Hamilton was very lucky to have such a good car last year.

#123 Ghostrider

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:49

Originally posted by Durant
Didnt piquet run Hamilton to the wire in gp2 a spec series? And he was apparently a better qualifier so he obviously has talent. This indicates Hamilton was very lucky to have such a good car last year.


There could be more factors. Maybe Hamilton adapts faster to new requirements, maybe he copes with the pressure of F1 better etc....

#124 Fatgadget

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:51

Originally posted by Durant
Didnt piquet run Hamilton to the wire in gp2 a spec series? And he was apparently a better qualifier so he obviously has talent. This indicates Hamilton was very lucky to have such a good car last year.


Why then is he miles off Alonsos pace, the same Alonso that Hamilton rattled big time in his rookie year?

#125 Durant

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:54

Originally posted by Fatgadget


Why then is he miles off Alonsos pace, the same Alonso that Hamilton rattled big time last year?


The car is harder to drive plus Alonso is driving better now.

#126 Spunout

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:55

Originally posted by Fatgadget


Why then is he miles off Alonsos pace, the same Alonso that Hamilton rattled big time last year?


It is easier for rookies to start with good car/team. See Hamilton, Villeneuve, etc. When things aren´t going so well, experience counts more. Finding proper setups is tougher, and so on.

#127 primer

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:25

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Maybe Hamilton adapts faster to new requirements, maybe he copes with the pressure of F1 better etc....


It is also possible for a driver to be competetive with one series or formula and not so in another. There's no absolute gurantee that good performance in GP2 guranteees good performance in F1. Although in this case clearly NP needs more time.

#128 Zmeej

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:31

Two words: Nico Rosberg.

#129 Fatgadget

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:32

Originally posted by Spunout


It is easier for rookies to start with good car/team. See Hamilton, Villeneuve, etc. When things aren´t going so well, experience counts more. Finding proper setups is tougher, and so on.


Plenty more drivers that started off in crap cars and ended up in oblivion than those that started their carrears in decent ones mate. Its a no brainer.

#130 Fatgadget

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:34

Originally posted by Durant


The car is harder to drive plus Alonso is driving better now.


LOL! :lol:

Was Fred in slumber mode last year then? :rolleyes:

#131 eoin

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:42

Originally posted by Fatgadget


Why then is he miles off Alonsos pace, the same Alonso that Hamilton rattled big time in his rookie year?


Last years mclaren was on rails. Very poor performance from Piquet, but lets give him a few more races...

#132 JonC

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 14:50

Piquet made a indescribably stupid move at the first corner by steaming down the far inside and unceremoniously turfing poor Fisi into the gravel. From there on he was pretty much the slowest car on the circuit...and he and Renault had the gall to claim in their press release he "was hit"...err no, he just rammed Fisi off the road.

Frankly the guy seemed totally out of his depth this weekend, almost to Yoong/Ide levels. Really though he made a meal of winning British F3 in 2004 (in what was his 4th season in the category against a weak field - guys like Nico and Lewis were in the Euroseries), he was nowhere in GP2 in 2005 when Nico and Heikki were the class of the field and only really had a chance against Hamilton in GP2 in 2006 because Hamilton frittered away a ton of points in the second half of the season. He'll be a competent F1 driver but I doubt he'll be a great one.

#133 PassWind

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:05

Originally posted by Chiara


I think you need to ask yourself one thing, how many other drivers have come from being a great success in lower racing formulae and instantly stepped into an F1 car and done the business from day 1? not many I'll bet.

What I was trying to point out is that being an F1 test driver and being an F1 driver are two completely different ball games. I think there is a tendency for armchair experts to underestimate just how hard it can be to make that transition. Look at Heikki Kovaleinen he had a bit of a torrid time last year and recently admitted that he just wasn't well enough prepared when he initially stepped up to become an F1 driver.

With any skilled job it takes time to learn all the skills necessary to be a success, I don't think F1 is that different. Just my humble opinion. Maybe Nelson Piquet Jnr will be a revelation, maybe he won't I think really its too early to make that kind of judgement.



Reference your question, you want me to ask myself something that is so obvious and was and is still the basis for the response I gave you in the first place.....I can't think of a Champion driver in this category that was known for their poor adaptation to the category.

Again I challenge you to define the speciality of a Test Driver, where is this Test Driver academy that makes them, the point is there isn't one, all drivers in this category are employed regardless of whether they are Test drivers or full time drivers on the basis that they are Race Drivers first. Now if a driver is struggling to come to terms with the main game then thats indicative of the drivers weakness not how difficult it is or isn't to transition, the Champions in this sport had no difficulty adapting why should anyone cut Nelson any slack. I think there is plenty of evidence to indicate Nelson is struggling if he fixes it fine, though personally I have this feeling that this guys career has been influenced by too many things that have little to do with ultimate talent.

#134 ensign14

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 16:32

Originally posted by Chiara


I think you need to ask yourself one thing, how many other drivers have come from being a great success in lower racing formulae and instantly stepped into an F1 car and done the business from day 1? not many I'll bet.

Loads. Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher M, Hakkinen, Hunt, Fittipaldi...their talents were obvious from their first drives. It's harder to find those World Champions who did not immediately shine - Lauda is the only one that immediately springs to mind.

#135 MLC

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:04

Originally posted by ensign14

Loads. Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher M, Hakkinen, Hunt, Fittipaldi...their talents were obvious from their first drives. It's harder to find those World Champions who did not immediately shine - Lauda is the only one that immediately springs to mind.


While we're at it, Mansell took a while to shine in F1.

But I agree with your list of drivers who looked good from day one.

#136 Jerome

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:20

Originally posted by ensign14

Loads. Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher M, Hakkinen, Hunt, Fittipaldi...their talents were obvious from their first drives. It's harder to find those World Champions who did not immediately shine - Lauda is the only one that immediately springs to mind.


Mmm... not bad examples but not entirely factual

1. Stewart. Obviously talented from day one, but after his accident at Spa in 1966 he fell back in his development... It was only in 1969 he got back in the groove.
2. Prost had an okay year with McLaren (his first season), had a fantastic first year in 1982 with Renault (3 wins), but when he lost the wc in 1982, 1983, 1984 there were quite a few knowledgeable people who thought Prost was too emotional fragile to be a worldchampion.
3. Senna was good but not spectacular in the Toleman, (bar his performance in Monaco in 1984) and from what I've heard, the people at Toleman thought he was a whiner, and were not at all that impressed by him.
4. Schumacher? Obvious, no relative remark there.
5. Hakkinen? He was okay at Lotus, I always loved him as a person... but I always thought he got his drive at McLaren because he and Dennis clicked... afterwards he suprised me in very positive way.
6. James Hunt? Sorry, I was a great fan of Hunt... but his nickname for a long time was James the Shunt. He was considered to be a joke in F3, and when he was at Hesketh nobody took him serious... untill... he won the Grand Prix of Zandvoort because of a very smart planned pitstop. That Fittipaldi was so stupid (stupid! stupid! stupid!) to leave McLaren was a gift for him. I believe that on merit alone, he never would have gotten that drive.... although, in hindsight, he deserved it.
7. Fittipaldi - obvious. No remarks there.


So to my opinion and memory only Schumacher, Fittipaldi, Hamilton were immediately on the game in their first year. And ofcourse there was Giancarlo Baghetti, who won his first race, but that did not propell him to a great F1 career, mind you.

#137 speedmaster

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:23

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen


Mmm... not bad examples but not entirely factual

1. Stewart. Obviously talented from day one, but after his accident at Spa in 1966 he fell back in his development... It was only in 1969 he got back in the groove.
2. Prost had an okay year with McLaren (his first season), had a fantastic first year in 1982 with Renault (3 wins), but when he lost the wc in 1982, 1983, 1984 there were quite a few knowledgeable people who thought Prost was too emotional fragile to be a worldchampion.
3. Senna was good but not spectacular in the Toleman, (bar his performance in Monaco in 1984) and the people at Toleman thought he was a whiner, and were not at all that impressed by him.
4. Schumacher? Obvious, no relative remark there.
5. Hakkinen? He was okay at Lotus, I always loved him as a person... but I always thought he got his drive at McLaren because he and Dennis clicked... afterwards he suprised me in very positive way.
6. James Hunt? Sorry, I was a great fan of Hunt... but his nickname for a long time was James the Shunt. He was considered to be a joke in F3, and when he was at Hesketh nobody took him serious... untill... he won the Grand Prix of Zandvoort because of a very smart planned pitstop. That Fittipaldi was so stupid (stupid! stupid! stupid!) to leave McLaren was a gift for him. I believe that on merit alone, he never would have gotten that drive.... although, in hindsight, he deserved it.
7. Fittipaldi - obvious. No remarks there.


So to my opinion and memory only Schumacher, Fittipaldi, Hamilton were immediately on the game in their first year. And ofcourse there was Giancarlo Baghetti, who won his first race, but that did not propell him to a great F1 career, mind you.


Piquet Sr...3 time world champion... one of the best and most technical and criative driver... started in the same 21st position as Piquet Jr on his first career start. Keep in mind...first race without all the gizmos and many good ones made a lot of mistakes this weekend. As usual mid season will tell better about each one capabilities (car and driver). Before we will be only expressing our fanboys side...

Cheers

#138 speedmaster

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:27

Originally posted by molive


I dunno why Nelson is not in Australia, but I doubt he had plans to become a Mr. Hamilton.

Nelsinho could use some fatherly advice, though. :/


If Sr was there I'm quite sure he would have get something a little more "harder" than just an advice...hehehe.. Sr is not the soft type...

Cheers...he will do ok, just give him some slack :up:

#139 Juan Kerr

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 18:29

Originally posted by Durant


The car is harder to drive plus Alonso is driving better now.

:rotfl: The old just deny everything response my oh my I think we've seen that way too much concerning Alonso, moreso than any other driver I remember. I've never known any other driver as Alonso somehow instil so much blind religious belief in their supporters, it must be that he is kind of a stereotype that is easy to relate to perhaps.

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#140 jesee

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 20:27

I can bet my bottom dollar that piquet is getting all the crap support while alonso is given everything. That is the policy at renault. Granted i dont like alonso much but his drive today was excellent although lucky with the safety cars. I feel sorry for piquet, for i think alonso doesnt share his data with him after all the fuss in mclaren. So he is learning the ropes on his own, with the knowledge that his is a support role for the choosen one.

#141 RiDE

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 21:48

I don't like the boy but completely discounting him after one race is rather silly.

#142 ezequiel

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 22:06

Originally posted by 512 TR


It's just a prediction. No source.


Poor Alx! He has the curse of Swedish drivers (aka lack of financial and political support)

#143 GAF

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 23:36

Originally posted by jesee
Granted i dont like alonso much but his drive today was excellent although lucky with the safety cars.


Lucky? both safety cars went out the lap before he had to enter for his pit-stops.
First time he was just about to penalize due to lack of fuel.

Couldn't have been more unlucky with that.

#144 juary

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 10:34

After a tremendous slow practices and qual, Piquet sr. destroyed the Fisi, Davidson and Button race when there was a good chance for the minor teams to grab some points... :down:

An idiot start...please FIA take and advice to him... :down:

#145 angst

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:00

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen


Mmm... not bad examples but not entirely factual


What a very ironic statement, given the following;



Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
1. Stewart. Obviously talented from day one, but after his accident at Spa in 1966 he fell back in his development... It was only in 1969 he got back in the groove.


1966 and 1967 Stewart was somewhat hamstrung by BRM's over-complicated H-16 motor. He did not have a particularly competitive car (to say the least). He still managed to impress though. His second place at Spa '67 being a highlight - and his F2 races were pretty impressive also during this time. For a driver who didn't get back into the swing until '69, then challenging for the '68 title was a pretty big achievement, and that drive at the Nurburgring that year.....

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
2. Prost had an okay year with McLaren (his first season), had a fantastic first year in 1982 with Renault (3 wins), but when he lost the wc in 1982, 1983, 1984 there were quite a few knowledgeable people who thought Prost was too emotional fragile to be a worldchampion.


"Lost" the WDC in '82? Was he ever really in the running? The Renault turbo suffered breakdown after breakdown in '82, having seemingly found some reliability in '81 (though Arnoux's season was somewhat different from Prost's in that repsect). '83? Well I think most people are aware that Renault did not keep up with the 'development' of the Brabham-BMW combo toward the end of that season. '84? He was half a point away from the title, having won more races than Lauda. I don't think there were many "knowledgeable people" who considered Prost as anything other than favourite for the '85 season...

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
3. Senna was good but not spectacular in the Toleman, (bar his performance in Monaco in 1984) and from what I've heard, the people at Toleman thought he was a whiner, and were not at all that impressed by him.


Point on his first race. Spectacular only at Monaco? he dragged that Toleman into places his teammates could not many, many times that year. Which people at Toleman was that? I don't think any of the Toleman people would have said no to his staying for '85...


4. Schumacher? Obvious, no relative remark there.

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
5. Hakkinen? He was okay at Lotus, I always loved him as a person... but I always thought he got his drive at McLaren because he and Dennis clicked... afterwards he suprised me in very positive way.


yes, because Dennis has a habit of taking on drivers just because he likes them as people. He's not interested in talent, race and title winning potential.... :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
6. James Hunt? Sorry, I was a great fan of Hunt... but his nickname for a long time was James the Shunt. He was considered to be a joke in F3, and when he was at Hesketh nobody took him serious... untill... he won the Grand Prix of Zandvoort because of a very smart planned pitstop. That Fittipaldi was so stupid (stupid! stupid! stupid!) to leave McLaren was a gift for him. I believe that on merit alone, he never would have gotten that drive.... although, in hindsight, he deserved it.


His nickname was Hunt the Shunt (it rhymes much better...;) ). Not taken seriously when he was at Hesketh??? His first half season he took a modified March ( a chassis that had done precisely NOTHING up to that point) onto the podium, including a fighting second place at the Glen behind Peterson. The guy was clearly a star once he got to F1, though his junior history might not have entirely suggested that he would be.

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
7. Fittipaldi - obvious. No remarks there.


Strangely, of all the drivers here, he had a pretty indifferent first full season ('71).... thought there were factors behind that, and he did show flashes of the promise that had been clear in '70...


Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
So to my opinion and memory only Schumacher, Fittipaldi, Hamilton were immediately on the game in their first year. And ofcourse there was Giancarlo Baghetti, who won his first race, but that did not propell him to a great F1 career, mind you.


Stewart finished in the points in his first race, and before the season was out had won. Prost was not in anything like a winning car, but again finished in the points in his first race and did enough to impress Renault such that they bought him out of his McLaren contract... Senna, again, was not in anything like a winning car, but again did enough that JPS Lotus brought out his contract with Toleman. Hakkinen, again was in a very uncompetitive car, but still managed to shine. Hunt was a revalation when he entered F1, and was constantly a threat in that Hesketh, and then came the McLaren drive...

So, all that you've actually done (and forgotten Stewart in the equation) is to pick out the drivers who won on their first season ( something that becomes clear with your insertion of the rather less impressive Baghetti into the story) - which has to be balanced against the competitiveness of the drives that they had, surely?

#146 angst

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:04

Originally posted by JonC
Piquet made a indescribably stupid move at the first corner by steaming down the far inside and unceremoniously turfing poor Fisi into the gravel. From there on he was pretty much the slowest car on the circuit...and he and Renault had the gall to claim in their press release he "was hit"...err no, he just rammed Fisi off the road.

Frankly the guy seemed totally out of his depth this weekend, almost to Yoong/Ide levels. Really though he made a meal of winning British F3 in 2004 (in what was his 4th season in the category against a weak field - guys like Nico and Lewis were in the Euroseries), he was nowhere in GP2 in 2005 when Nico and Heikki were the class of the field and only really had a chance against Hamilton in GP2 in 2006 because Hamilton frittered away a ton of points in the second half of the season. He'll be a competent F1 driver but I doubt he'll be a great one.


He is the ultimate over-hyped driver, isn't he?

#147 angst

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:05

Originally posted by MLC


While we're at it, Mansell took a while to shine in F1.

But I agree with your list of drivers who looked good from day one.


Did he?

#148 Josta

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:28

Originally posted by glorius&victorius
This was a absolute more than rubbish performance.

Offcourse we wont hear the same words of Flavio for his new batti boy


Well, last year Flavio said "it must have been Heikki's brother driving the car". This year he can say "it must have been Nelsons dad driving the car". :)

#149 Jerome

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 15:02

Originally posted by angst


What a very ironic statement, given the following;





1966 and 1967 Stewart was somewhat hamstrung by BRM's over-complicated H-16 motor. He did not have a particularly competitive car (to say the least). He still managed to impress though. His second place at Spa '67 being a highlight - and his F2 races were pretty impressive also during this time. For a driver who didn't get back into the swing until '69, then challenging for the '68 title was a pretty big achievement, and that drive at the Nurburgring that year.....



"Lost" the WDC in '82? Was he ever really in the running? The Renault turbo suffered breakdown after breakdown in '82, having seemingly found some reliability in '81 (though Arnoux's season was somewhat different from Prost's in that repsect). '83? Well I think most people are aware that Renault did not keep up with the 'development' of the Brabham-BMW combo toward the end of that season. '84? He was half a point away from the title, having won more races than Lauda. I don't think there were many "knowledgeable people" who considered Prost as anything other than favourite for the '85 season...



Point on his first race. Spectacular only at Monaco? he dragged that Toleman into places his teammates could not many, many times that year. Which people at Toleman was that? I don't think any of the Toleman people would have said no to his staying for '85...


4. Schumacher? Obvious, no relative remark there.



yes, because Dennis has a habit of taking on drivers just because he likes them as people. He's not interested in talent, race and title winning potential.... :rolleyes:




His nickname was Hunt the Shunt (it rhymes much better...;) ). Not taken seriously when he was at Hesketh??? His first half season he took a modified March ( a chassis that had done precisely NOTHING up to that point) onto the podium, including a fighting second place at the Glen behind Peterson. The guy was clearly a star once he got to F1, though his junior history might not have entirely suggested that he would be.



Strangely, of all the drivers here, he had a pretty indifferent first full season ('71).... thought there were factors behind that, and he did show flashes of the promise that had been clear in '70...




Stewart finished in the points in his first race, and before the season was out had won. Prost was not in anything like a winning car, but again finished in the points in his first race and did enough to impress Renault such that they bought him out of his McLaren contract... Senna, again, was not in anything like a winning car, but again did enough that JPS Lotus brought out his contract with Toleman. Hakkinen, again was in a very uncompetitive car, but still managed to shine. Hunt was a revalation when he entered F1, and was constantly a threat in that Hesketh, and then came the McLaren drive...

So, all that you've actually done (and forgotten Stewart in the equation) is to pick out the drivers who won on their first season ( something that becomes clear with your insertion of the rather less impressive Baghetti into the story) - which has to be balanced against the competitiveness of the drives that they had, surely?


Thank for your comments and nuances. I don't agree with all of them, but I appreciate the effort.

#150 JonC

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 22:30

Originally posted by angst


He is the ultimate over-hyped driver, isn't he?


Absolutely, if his surname wasn't Piquet he would probably not be in F1, or at least not with a team like Renault.