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Originally posted by primer


There are Minardi crews in that team but resource and car wise they are very different now. While taking nothing away from Vettel you have to accept that the car STR have been gifted is better than anything Minardi made for themselves.

My thoughts also. As much of a fairy tale it is, Minardi never had a Ferrari powered, Adrian Newey designed, british built car.

A few things clear after this race. Heikki and the Ferrrari drivers dont deserve there seats. Hard to put into words the incompetence of those drivers today. Kimi started in 14th and was stuck in 14 until the last laps when it dried, just unbeleivable. Ferrari managment getting their just desserts. Massa was just as bad, qualfying 1.3 seconds slower than Vettel with only 3 laps more fuel and out driven all raceJust incompetent.

Great drive from Vettel but its possible he had the best car out there because newey cars are known to be very slippery, and it seems he had a great setup, but he still made the most of it and dominated.

Great fighting drive from Alonso again. He made a great tyre call and embaressed the Ferrari drivers today, and was very quick in the final stages of the race. Highly rated Kubica in a much better car only beat him by 3 seconds today, on a terrible renault track, so he still has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same class as Alonso.

Ferrari better pray for no more rain, their drivers are just no good in the wet. I dont beleive these stories that their car is THAT bad in the wet. Ive never heard of a great car suddenly becoming terrible in the dry. Its mainly just a convenient excuse to cover up their drivers.

Superb race from Vettel, incredible performance! Future WDC, no doubt.
Pity for Bourdais, never got a chance to show what he could do. Newey again gets a victory for one of his cars - he hasn't lost his touch.

Great race from Kubica as well, again a podium, in very difficult conditions. He and Alonso were on the right strategy, as they got their stop essentially "free" because everyone else had to change to intermediates, as well.

McLaren lost a major chance to overtake Ferrari in the WCC and take a nice cushion in WDC, with yesterday's blunder. If Hamilton had started around Kova's position, he would have challenged for the win. As it was, nice damage limitation, though some hard driving at times (Webber and especially Glock). Hamilton was superb in his first stint, pity he didn't get the "free" pitstop and his pace on intermediates, after being initially impressive, suddenly dropped - Massa had much the same problem, I think. Due to tyre usage/graining, perhaps? Hamilton really animated the first third of the race though, with a fantastic march through the field that was a pleasure to watch.
Still, Hamilton had a bad weekend overall: harder dry tyres, a wet but drying circuit in the actual qual and race: he should have extended his lead instead of having it reduced to nothing. Soon, Ferrari's favorite conditions (soft tyres, dry weekend, heat) may come back and Spa and Monza were the type of weekend where Hamilton should have taken advantage. Title will be difficult, very much so.

Kovalainen really should have won, and on the podium his body language told it all. He's still not fast enough in the race.

Ferrari similarly lost a good chance to profit maximally from McLaren's mistakes: Massa made little impression and Raikkonen was couldn't keep up with Hamilton's march through the field. Their car may not be that good in those changing conditions.

Originally posted by undersquare
There's speculation that STR might switch to Honda engines, with Sato, and RB take back the Ferrari engine supply (which they signed for originally before Newey arrived and wanted Renault).

I would!

F1Live

Originally posted by AFCA


I think that's very unlikely. All the teams have already made considerable progress on next year's car. Deciding to change engine supplier I think is the equivalent of walking straight to the grave. And not just because of the engine: also in terms of gearbox and KERS design, something the teams are working on together very closely. It's just too late and all the work that has been done on the points I mentioned would turn out to be useless...

Berger denies Sato would be brining along Honda engines: ''Whether or not Sato will join us is solely dependent on his performance.''

''First of all we have a valid contract. And with 'we' I mean Toro Rosso (as opposed to Red Bull I guess - AFCA). Secondly we're very happy with Ferrari. And thirdly we're obviously willing to further improve next year. With a new engine we would have to start from scratch again in many areas. And that's not our aim.''

Would the team get Honda engines more easily/cheaply with Sato on board though ? ''Possibly, but that's not what it's about.''

-------

As for Bourdais not testing next week (Buemi day 1, Sato day 2, Vettel day 3), Berger: ''The fact Bourdais isn't going to test doesn't mean anything.'' Tost: ''Vettel will be in the car on the third day because we want to test some parts with him that so far haven't suited him very well and we want to hear his opinion about them.''

Meanwhile, after the German had already denied it himself, Marko came out saying that Vettel taking over Coulthard's seat from Monza onwards is bollocks: ''I don't know who's been spreading this around but it's nonsense.''

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
What garbage. The pity is, you don't even recognize the poor service that Red Bull got from Ferrari with their engines cooling issues. Incidentally, Newey is more than competent on aerodynamics. And so is his staff. The Renault case is a simple example that a team quite willing to spend lots on an engine, was happy to buy the Renault unit. That's testimony to the equality of engines now. They went to the huge trouble of progamming another ECU, when all they had to do was put in an engine they were intimate with. They chose not to.

It's also evidenced about what the teams say about engines - that they are all pretty much the same now. You should read what Mauro Forghieri says about current F1 engines, how totally boring the whole engine thing now is, I presume you've heard of him. If what you say is correct, the Toro Rosso should have been dominant over the RBR3 on low aero tracks. It wasn't.

The facts are that if teams don't do everything available on their engines, they'll go slower. But if they do do everything available, it will not make them much faster than a team that does say 95% of the available work. With the current engine rules, the expenditure / benefit curve peaks quite early and becomes almost flat. Ferrari can afford to do 99%, and not restrict resources from other more productive areas of car improvement. And you can bet that with the top 6 teams, their engine performances will be very similar. But that the ability for the drive wheels to deliver that power will vary much much much more between the teams than will engine performance. And they way to fix those problems is with aero and mechanical development.

I think you have missed the point yet again Melbourne Park, no one was debating the level of service Ferrari gave Red Bull, but rather as you confirmed it was the cooling requirements of the Ferrari unit which was not given to Red Bull by Ferrari in comparison to Renault who may have offered more assistance here. But again if all the engines are the same (as you believe), then so must be their cooling requirements. I think you are not giving Newey enough credit to suggest he needed more help from a rival team regarding the aero of his own design then what Ferrari was giving him.

My point is simply that Newey being an aerodynamicist saw the advantage in the Renault unit over and above the Ferrari one, that can't be debated, i was not commenting on Newey's competences but rather that as an aerodynamicist, if all the engines were the same why the big drama from Newey to adopt the Renault unit? This cannot be based on service alone but rather the aero limitations due to the Ferrari engines cooling requirements. This was the key comment from Newey and if you look at the current Ferrari design compared to the Renault, which team has greater levels of cooling apendiges on their body work??? The answer is for all to see.

As for your ECU comment...you will find that Ferrari and Renault used the same system, so not a big work load here to change the engines over, certainly not a "huge trouble" as you suggested.

As for your comments regarding Mauro Forghieri, yes he is well known, he is commenting on the many FIA restrictions which have shifted focus away from engines to aero, and yes the engines are very similar to each other which is a product of the FIA rules, but by no means are they identical, if they were and there was no room for development he would be out of the job.

Here is an extract from an interview with Newey regarding the engines of 2007, not 2008.

Q: Given that the engine regulations are much more restrictive now than then, how much value does that extra data add?

AN: Engine development in the hardware sense is obviously restricted with the frozen regulations, but there’s still an awful lot in the way the engine is operated that is crucially important, and that’s where I think our relationship with Renault will pay dividends.

That's straight from the horses mouth regarding engine development potential. The interview also goes on with Newey siting the number of differences between the units, most notably in the cooling requirements.

As for your point on Torro Rosso and Red Bull; Torro Rosso is the sister team of Red Bull, i would have assumed you knew that, in which case you would also know that Torro Rosso was a number of evolutions of car development behind Red Bull as Red Bull supply them with the entire car, from chassis to aero. But the one aspect of the car which is different is the engine. In actual fact the Torro Rosso car is a year old Red Bull for the most part with a number of refinements; regardless its aero effciency is somewhat behind the Red Bull.

So to prove a point lets look at the top speed trap times on a power circuit or low aero circuit as you suggested...Monza. Vettel was consistently 3 kph faster at every intermediate then the next best Red Bull car (Webber). Now this does not tell the full story obviously but it is indicative that for a car effectively carrying an older version of Red Bulls own aero, that even given the loss in aero efficiency to the Red Bull they had faster speed trap results. The engine difference may, just may have played a part in this dont you think?

So although the Torro Rosso was not as good overall compared to the Red Bull, in the area where engine performance can be seen the most and between two manufacturers who develop their engines to their fullest capacity, at a low aero track the Torro Rosso was faster in the straight line... Blows your theory out of the water. Especially once you consider that Red Bull was using up to date Renault spec engines, whereas the Torro Rosso outfit were contractually receiving a prior evolution of the Ferrari engine, and yet still faster on the low aero circuit...hmmmm

Let's gain some clarification here, no one is saying that engine performance is the only measure of performance, my comments were in response to yours, in that and i quote..."engines are not an issue now."

My point was simply they are more an issue in 2008 then in 2007 and that their importance in the entire package should not be discounted due to the significant knock on effects they create both for aero efficiency, tyre wear and of course the combination of this is overall car speed. If it were no longer an issue as you stated, then the top manufacturers, Ferrari, McLaren, BMW, Renault, Toyota, etc would re allocate all their spending from engines to either aero or mechanical R&D...funnily enough, they don't so therefore they are an issue unless all these teams just like to spend money for no reward...before you start, leave Toyota alone because they were nice enough to setup the retirement funds of Mike Gascoyne and Ralfy Boy.

If you don't agree with the above which was the core aspect of my response before you decided to take it somewhat off course (for obvious reasons) then state your reasoning. But i take it from your earlier response that you do agree.

As you stated "The facts are that if teams don't do everything available on their engines, they'll go slower. But if they do do everything available, it will not make them much faster than a team that does say 95% of the available work."

This is very true, an increase in engine performance will not make a team much faster, but i think we can all agree it will make then faster. The most important point to consider is that TC masked a lot of the power delivery problems with many units, now however with TC gone engine power delivery is even more important, hence you will expect to see more expenditure on engines in 2007 winter testing and throughout 2008 then you did during the TC era as the expenditure pay back is far greater then before.

I don't think this can be debated. If you try to debate it then that would be as you say, total 'garbage'.

Originally posted by AFCA
For the Bourdais fans (are there any here ? - I quite like him), a translated interview...

Q: You're finally a Formula 1 driver. Relieved ?
Bourdais: ''More than that. There were times in which I accepted to no longer make it into Formula 1. When it wouldn't have worked out this time, than it would never have. Next year I'll be 29.''

He's right, for taking the chance.

Q: What do you think about your new teammate Vettel ?
Bourdais: ''Although he's only 20 years old, he has more F1 experience than me. He's the experienced one, I'm the rookie. Who drives just as fast as Liuzzi from the start in Hungary, without knowing the car, must be a good racing driver.''

Already starting to make excuses by labelling Vettel as experienced? I could see this pairing having some trouble between them.

Q: Will you already be driving the Grand Prix' of Monza, Spa, Fuji and Shangha this year ?
Bourdais: ''First of all Toro Rosso must want that, then Newman-Haas must agree. The title in the ChampCar-Serie has the priority.''

Berger apparently has just confirmed Liuzzi will remain until the end of the season. Better for Bourdais I think, since this allows him to settle in with a winter of testing before racing.

Q: Many Formula 1 drivers that have switched to Formula 1 have had bad a experience. Doesn't that discourage you ?
Bourdais: ''I only see the positive examples. Jacques Villeneuve became worldchampion, Juan-Pablo Montoya wasn't exactly the worst there was. It's all about timing. You have to be at the right spot at the right time.''

Q: Newman-Haas fights for victories, Toro Rosso drives at the back. A new feeling ?
Bourdais: ''I'm prepared to grow with the team. Toro Rosso doesn't want to stay at the back. Let's see, perhaps Adrian Newey comes up with a topcar in 2008. The technical structure is already there.''

Well, Bourdais often comes off as too negative, but this is the opposite, really wishful thinking. I can't see Toro Rosso with a top car fighting for podiums in 2008, sorry.

Q: Will it help you that you're used to driving without traction control in the ChampCar ? In 2008 the decive will be banned in Formula 1.
Bourdais: ''I'm afraid the teams will find a way to realise some form of traction control. Somehow they will bring the power on the road in a controlled way. My advantage is that I can give Toro Rosso hints about how we do that in the ChampCar. I like to be technically integrated in a team.''

I hope he's wrong. :

Q: How do you cope with the grooved tyres in Formula 1 ?
Bourdais: ''I don't like them. Grooved tyres is not the way to go to make racing cars slower. It's better to reduce the aerodynamics and to increase the mechanical grip. That makes overtaking easier. The GP2-Serie already does that. My biggest learning demand will be to cope with the tyres. You have to set-up the car in such a way the tyres are not stressed too much.'' -- (There's a fair chance that next year there will be slicks in F1 - AFCA)

Q: With a fourth title you could write ChampCar history. Rick Mears, Bobby Rahal and Michael Andretti have three titles like you.
Bourdais: ''It doesn't interest me. I want to prove that we can become champion in any car. I can no longer hear the stupid chitchat about my team Newman-Haas always having been privileged by Lola. Now we're driving with Panoz-chassis, and we're up front nevertheless.''

Q: How does the Panoz drive in comparison with Lola ?
Bourdais: ''It's more nervous entering corners. I don't like it as much. Panoz has more downforce than the Lola, has a bit more airresistance and is a bit heavier (to drive).''

Q: Why is your team Newman-Haas the best in the championship ?
Bourdais: ''It comes down to details when all the cars are the same. Newman-Haas finds these details better than the other teams.''

Q: How strong are your rival drivers ?
Bourdais: ''From the 17 drivers maybe 7 of them earn money. The rest has to bring money. With that the question is answered.''

Well, this guy surely isn't afraid of speaking his mind.

For the Bourdais fans (are there any here ? - I quite like him), a translated interview...

Q: You're finally a Formula 1 driver. Relieved ?
Bourdais: ''More than that. There were times in which I accepted to no longer make it into Formula 1. When it wouldn't have worked out this time, than it would never have. Next year I'll be 29.''

Q: How nervous were you that maybe an the last moment it wouldn't have worked out ?
Bourdais: ''Not at all nervous. Formula 1 has always been a dream. I have already fulfilled these dreams with the testdrives for Toro Rosso. I was in peace with myself. It wouldn't have been the end of the world if I again wouldn't have made it.''

Q: What do you think about your new teammate Vettel ?
Bourdais: ''Although he's only 20 years old, he has more F1 experience than me. He's the experienced one, I'm the rookie. Who drives just as fast as Liuzzi from the start in Hungary, without knowing the car, must be a good racing driver.''

Q: Will you already be driving the Grand Prix' of Monza, Spa, Fuji and Shangha this year ?
Bourdais: ''First of all Toro Rosso must want that, then Newman-Haas must agree. The title in the ChampCar-Serie has the priority.''

Q: Would it not be a problem to 'jump' from continent to continent, one time driving in ChampCar, the other time in F1 ?
Bourdais: ''But that's what I do for years now anyway. This year I've often been in Europe, to test with Peugeot for Le Mans, to drive the 24 hours. There's no bigger difference between a ChampCar and a sportscars.''

Q: Many Formula 1 drivers that have switched to Formula 1 have had bad a experience. Doesn't that discourage you ?
Bourdais: ''I only see the positive examples. Jacques Villeneuve became worldchampion, Juan-Pablo Montoya wasn't exactly the worst there was. It's all about timing. You have to be at the right spot at the right time.''

Q: Newman-Haas fights for victories, Toro Rosso drives at the back. A new feeling ?
Bourdais: ''I'm prepared to grow with the team. Toro Rosso doesn't want to stay at the back. Let's see, perhaps Adrian Newey comes up with a topcar in 2008. The technical structure is already there.''

Q: Will it help you that you're used to driving without traction control in the ChampCar ? In 2008 the decive will be banned in Formula 1.
Bourdais: ''I'm afraid the teams will find a way to realise some form of traction control. Somehow they will bring the power on the road in a controlled way. My advantage is that I can give Toro Rosso hints about how we do that in the ChampCar. I like to be technically integrated in a team.''

Q: How do you cope with the grooved tyres in Formula 1 ?
Bourdais: ''I don't like them. Grooved tyres is not the way to go to make racing cars slower. It's better to reduce the aerodynamics and to increase the mechanical grip. That makes overtaking easier. The GP2-Serie already does that. My biggest learning demand will be to cope with the tyres. You have to set-up the car in such a way the tyres are not stressed too much.'' -- (There's a fair chance that next year there will be slicks in F1 - AFCA)

Q: With a fourth title you could write ChampCar history. Rick Mears, Bobby Rahal and Michael Andretti have three titles like you.
Bourdais: ''It doesn't interest me. I want to prove that we can become champion in any car. I can no longer hear the stupid chitchat about my team Newman-Haas always having been privileged by Lola. Now we're driving with Panoz-chassis, and we're up front nevertheless.''

Q: How does the Panoz drive in comparison with Lola ?
Bourdais: ''It's more nervous entering corners. I don't like it as much. Panoz has more downforce than the Lola, has a bit more airresistance and is a bit heavier (to drive).''

Q: Why is your team Newman-Haas the best in the championship ?
Bourdais: ''It comes down to details when all the cars are the same. Newman-Haas finds these details better than the other teams.''

Q: How strong are your rival drivers ?
Bourdais: ''From the 17 drivers maybe 7 of them earn money. The rest has to bring money. With that the question is answered.''