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What is it exactly about his cars that enable them to go so fast in wet conditions? We've seen this since 2007, where Vettel and Webber and even Liuzzi were able to put the Red Bulls and Toro Rossos to good use in the rain. In 2008, it was again obvious, particularly at Monza where there were 3 Newey-designed cars on the first 2 rows after qualifying. And now AGAIN, with all new cars, the Red Bulls look to be even more stellar than before, and the Toro Rossos were going good as well.

I had been assuming that the diffuser-three would be the stars of the wet weather conditions as they'd naturally have a downforce advantage, especially at the rear where getting the power down is crucial in the wet. But Toyota wasn't all that special, Williams weren't either, and most surprisingly, the kings of 2009, BrawnGP weren't even able to keep up.

Button mentioned trouble keeping heat in the tires, and this is what I'm thinking is their problem. Its seems as if BrawnGP's biggest advantage is their race pace, and maybe they aren't so hot in cooler conditions and in heating up their tires, kinda like how Ferrari were last year? Is it that simple? Would this also mean that the Newey cars, while good in qualifying or the wet, will be less stellar in normal race conditions over longer stints?

Ehh... 2002, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008?

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

Now we are talking semantics. No F1 car is slow, as they all could run rings around any supercar you can find on the street. Regardless, compared to the top contenders of those years, overall the cars of the aforementioned years were slow by F1 standards.

MP4-19 didn't win any races, that was the MP4-19B which was a totally revised new version. MP4-19 was slow.

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

The Torro Rosso is also made by the hands of Newey?

The consolation thread is hardly more than a collection of excuses for the Webber fans and an opportunity to invent more conspiracy theories for those with more lively imagination. But the game can be played from both sides. I was prepared to give Mark Webber credit as a WDC if he had pulled it off in the the last round. He didn't and so this story was never written. Instead we wade through an ocean of self illusion which I'm not prepared to support. After a brief lip service to the man who beat their hero convincingly in the same equipment the Webber supporters fill pages after pages with their grief and crying. It needs a bit of counter balancing.

Could you clarify what you mean by "support"? He said himself he had equal equipment and he obviously had the support of his side of the garage. What more does he want? A cookie perhaps? He did a very good job this season, but he went about it the totally the wrong from the mental angle, especially near the end.

This Mark Webber against Red Bull charade was annoying like hell. Don't drive for the team if you don't like what you get.

It was never in Red Bull's interest to sabotage Webber and I'm sure there was never any intent to do that. They wanted the WCC after all. But Webber was right when he said his form in 2010 was an inconvenience to the team. And he certainly didn't get the support you'd normally see a team give a driver substantially in front of his team-mate with two races to go. No not team orders. I mean things like the last run in quali in Brazil or Abu Dhabi. Things like Horner coming out prior to Brazil and announcing the team will be built around Vettel in 2011 - I mean, what was the point of that? Way to make Webber feel on the outs. Dreadful timing. And then post-Korea having Gerhard Berger (close friend of DM) in an interview from Red Bull's Hangar 7 saying some spectacularly nasty things without anything to back it up. So much of the tension between SV and MW felt unnecessary and was a product of poor management IMO. It worked out for them in the end, but I'm not convinced they needed to make it so hard for themselves, or make Webber feel so isolated.

Webber was the one who was having his one man war against Red Bull while they were constantly saying that he got equal equipment and opportunity. It was very annoying for Vettel fans to have his reputation constantly smeared by the Webber PR machine. Gerhard is a great supporter of Sebastian's talent and gave him the car for his first victory in Monza 2008. Webber and DC were having by far more resources and were getting all the technical support from Adrian Newey months earlier than Toro Rosso. They could not match Vettel who beat them to glory by his talent and pace. Gerhard only told it as it was. Webber did not brake and knowingly allowed his car to become a hazard to the runners behind him. It is called "causing an avoidable collision" by the code.

Webber had the equipment and opportunity to become world champion... Whether Horner baked Webber cakes and Marko gave him backrubs is completely and utterly irrelevant. They gave him the car to go out to fight for a WDC. And they allowed him to do it. If they didn't want Webber in the WDC running, trust me they had 1 million ways to stop him without you or me ever being none the wiser. And consolation isn't synonymous with blaming everybody else. Consolation is comfort after disappointment. I fail to see why blaming everybody else is comfort.

well said

"It was a big day and we had the chance to do something incredibly unique, but in the end it didn't turn out for us."
Hard to feel sorry for Webber when he goes and says that. "Didn't turn out for us". Talk about sepparating yourself from the team...winning the WDC/WCC isn't enough? Oh wait, I guess he wanted personal glory...At least cranky pants didn't moan about being a "#2 driver". What a choke end to the season, just exemplifies how some drivers will never have a WDC mentality...

+1 Webber had it in his own hands to put a #1 on his car. He didn't and so he will have #2 next year.

I felt a bit of a disappointment that Dietrich Mateschitz did not go on the podium. He did great this season and all the years before. Unfortunately he is a very shy man when it comes to public appearances. He never goes on television if he can avoid it and he probably decided to send Helmut Marko instead. It was a fitting replacement as Marko had represented him for many seasons in F1. I'm sure most people around the world understood the gesture by the team towards their Austrian ownership.

Ok, now to the consolation bit. Mark Webber came back well from his injuries in 2008 which must have influenced his form in 2009. He drove a couple of good races and was often close to the pace which allowed him to pick up when one of the other contenders dropped the ball. He showed his experience in the qualifying under changing conditions such as Malaysia where he pulled out a 1.4 s lead and Spa. He also fully utilized his experience in Silverstone where he drove with a cool head and a hard hand. He generally used his great luck and the machinery he got to maximize his points. He deserved to be in the title race down to the wire and the place he got.

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.



What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

If you read my post properly I was referring to that win and that win alone. Not the season as a whole as I never mentioned anything else about the season because clearly seb was talented, that was obvious to see and he earned his chance and has grasped it. I have nothing against that so you don't need to be so defensive in your seb love mate.

Bourdais said Marko was like poison in that garage, not to mention Jamie getting an earful from Marko in Korea which lead would have contributed to his sacking and you really think what they say and don't say behind closed doors is going to someone leaked out to the public? There is a whole load of politics behind closed doors whether it be RBR or any other teams just as there is in any organization. Seb has been protected by Marko since the start of the RBDYP, he is less likely to be the golden child if he heads to ferrari and Fernando handily beats him initially.

Sakae, from what I've read the conditions are loosely based where Ferrari are in the constructors championships at a point in time in the 2013 championship as to ensure for Vettel that he will has a decent car underneath him for 2014. Who knows the exact condition. On the other hand if RB do not say for example manage top 3 constructors for next season then Vettel has a get out clause and hence free to speak to Ferrari. However, if RB do hit those targets then I would imagine the option is exercised and Vettel would then have to see out 2014. Much the same IMO a similar scenario to Webber hitting a particular target for him to retain the RB seat for next season.

While I agree with the rest of your post to a large degree, I can't believe the rubbish that is sprouted about Vettel's win in the TR (where fans keep thinking in won in a Minardi which a load of rubbish as well - a Minardi is one that Marques or Yoong or Alonso or Webber drove not a Newey designed car with Ferrari power).

- He won one race with TR (I didn't see him winning any other races)
- That race was perfect conditions for TR, Newey's chassis that year was brilliant in the wet and the Ferrari had greater horsepower than the Renault of the RB (look at them at the bottom of the speed traps)
- BOTH TRs would have outqualified BOTH RBs had Webber not pipped Bourdais late on in qualifying

Taking away nothing from Vettel did what he does best which was lead from the front and stay there but him being a great driver in the TR when the car + weather suited the track at the right time is often overlooked by fans.

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.

I don't see him with Alonso/Hamilton which IMO Alonso is the same so he would have no problems with Vettel coming over. Vettel doesn't also have Dr. Marko pulling strings for him like he had at TR and now RB. If he does go over to Ferrari and he beats Alonso then he would be considered a great to me. Out of the younger drivers, Hamilton/Vettel are the natural successors to Alonso which you can see why Ferrari have gone that direction.

What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

I declare that Vettel is the quickest driver because he still extracted more from the RB6 compared to his teammate and remember during the summer the German driver raced with a damaged chassis which allowed Webber to be quicker and win. Also he is achieving numbers only reached by the greats of this sport. How good he is will take time to assess but out of all the top drivers he is still the least experienced.

For me the inkling we had just how good he was, was at Monza in 2008. The greatest qualifying performance for me since Schumacher was Q3 at Suzuka 2009. Phenomenal. I share Bernie's idea of the current f1 dream team: Alonso and Vettel. of course it would be an impossible sitation for any team

relax, man. i didn`t react at your previous posts, but now it`s too much.
tell me, please, how you rank bourdais performance in the other torro rosso, with more fuel on board, that day. i remind you the guy was 4th on the grid.
don`t you think that this might have had something in common with some adrien newey`s participation in upgrading 2008 torro rosso cars, that were, by the way, very quick in wet conditions even without it?

now, after 2010 rbr title saga, i`m sure that it was also pr project to back in the second half of 2008 torro rosso instead of rb main team with 2, let`s say, "retired" drivers in order to promote the young gun, "baby schumi", to elevate the selling numbers of some energy drink.
who is better advertising platform vettel or maybe webber?
the answer is easy.

and this talk about broken chasis is just pathetic, vettel admited he had had problems with throttle operating until some changes were made in engine electronics.
that`s right, he was fractionaly faster, mainly in qualifying, but he also enjoyed last run advantage most of the time, you must admit. and we all know qualifying is all today,.
so i would recommend you to wait a while with comparing him to senna.

The honor will go to Vettel after this season. Back-to-back WDC, younger than Alonso and more wins/poles than Alonso (at similar ages). There's no way it isn't Vettel.

Well, Vettel is a super driver, no doubt, but I still miss from him some super drive in difficult conditions (in fact, Monza 2008 was almost hi best win). All his victories came after getting the pole and driving the best of all cars. 12 out of his 16 victories are from pole (14 of 26 in Alonso's case). Only time will tell, Vettel is to me a fantastic driver lucky to be in the right place (as Button was lucky in 2009 of having a Brawn). I think we all know that luck is part of this sport. And in that sense, I think Alonso never had that luck, because he never had a dominant car (in 2005 the McLaren was faster almost everywhere, and in 2006 the Ferrari-Bridgestone was quite faster for 2/3 of the year). So having that in scope, I think Alonso is the man of the current era because he could be there is extremely variant conditions (different teams, different rules, different tires...).

Vettel records are to me some statistical anecdote, equaly as Schumacher is topping all tables in stats but Senna is still remembered as the best one.

PD: I would say that currently, recent championships are remembered as the "Red Bull - Newey" dominance most than Vettel's dominance...

i hv no idea why hamilton is labeled as fastest driver when he has been driving a winning car all the time?? With such error prone, and inconsistency, i rather opt for Alonso + Kimi or kimi+vettel !!

raikkonen is literally the only "good driver" to not win a title with Newey.

On the other hand Hamilton has been getting screwed over by his RE and TP for the last few years. Plus he is a lot more consistently fast than raikonen.

unsettled by massa?? rather kimi was having a tough year in 2008 when a few of his wins results in unfortunate event!! Canada, France, Belgium~~~

Canada - some wooden eye crash into him from the pitlane

France - exhaust pipe failure

SPa- raining on last lap, wrong tyre, no grip = crash

There were A LOT more races where raikkonen was complete garbage - Australia, Turkey, Monza, Singapore (that was hilariously bad), Hockenheim, Monaco, etc.

Eh, I think Ricciardo could make something of it. He seems to be on the edge of a great result every so often, only to be struck by a strategy failure.

Vettel benefited in the final year that they could share designs between constructors, his win in 2008 was very much aided by the Newey inspired elements that came down from the parent team to the 2008 car. Remember that Bourdais also good showings in that car, and qualified 4th in Monza.

Once that design link was gone Toro Rosso hasn't really been in a position to do much more than be lower midfield, which is a hard place to impress from. Attrition is well down on years passed, so podiums are nigh on impossible for a team of that caliber. Dan has already matched the best Jamie A. could do, a 7th.

As for the other drivers:

- Liuzzi was like a Zonta or Piquet Jr., he won at the GP2 level but was too crash prone and mentally weak to last long in F1. His poor showing against Sutil wasted that good opportunity in what was a half decent car.

- Speed never had much hope at all. Also had an attitude issue.

- Bourdais was beaten heavily by Vettel. On his own, I rate him higher than Luizzi, but Buemi was obviously a better choice and had more points before Bourdais was dumped.

- Buemi has moved into a testing role so he must have some value. I think he would make a fine #2 driver.

- Jamie A. was the only real failure of the system. I think he had the edge over Buemi in 2011, yet he was dumped unceremoniously. Sadly we saw the much more capable Kobayashi and Glock leave the series a year later due to budget constraints, so maybe he was just an indicator of what was to come. Jamie was obviously more capable than say Gutierrez.

I think that overall, the RBR young driver program kind of gave too much time to inadequate drivers like Liuzzi in the early years and then developed unreasonable expectations by the time it came around to Jamie A. If anything, I think they would have had the best Webber replacement in Alguersuari had they kept him on for 2012.

RBR does not need a clash of the titans between Vettel and Raikkonen, McLaren in 2007 showed what a problem that can cause.

Renault this year was 4th on WC. with 88 points (and Alonso did 3 podiums before winning)

Toro Rosso was 6th with 39 points !!! (best result before Monza was a 5th of Vettel after start on the grid the 18th!)

I mean YOU CAN´T COMPARE.

Toro Rosso didn't even launch that car until the 6th race up until then Vettel was too busy crashing into people, the chassis was designed by one Adrian Newey and had a Ferrari engine in it (which as Red Bull moaned so much about was more powerful than its Renault counterpart). Looking at the results Vettel was the only driver scoring points in the second half of the season consistently, Bourdais struggled to do the same. With Alonso and Trulli both drivers were picking up points.

There is also the fact that in 2003 the engines weren't as reliable as they were in 2008, picking up more points can be attributed to that along with other drivers being out the race as a result of an accident.

You honestly believe the TR was the absolute best car in 2008? Dream on sunshine.

As we have seen with the Red Bull cars (and Newey cars in general) they tend to be very good in the wet- they occupied pole and the second row of the grid at Monza that year. Vettel most definitley showed up the big sister team that day and displayed maturity beyond his years, but it's worth noting that Bourdais laptimes were comparable with his teammate during that race. A possible one-two lost due to a technical glitch on the grid.

A few things clear after this race. Heikki and the Ferrrari drivers dont deserve there seats. Hard to put into words the incompetence of those drivers today. Kimi started in 14th and was stuck in 14 until the last laps when it dried, just unbeleivable. Ferrari managment getting their just desserts. Massa was just as bad, qualfying 1.3 seconds slower than Vettel with only 3 laps more fuel and out driven all raceJust incompetent.

Great drive from Vettel but its possible he had the best car out there because newey cars are known to be very slippery, and it seems he had a great setup, but he still made the most of it and dominated.

Great fighting drive from Alonso again. He made a great tyre call and embaressed the Ferrari drivers today, and was very quick in the final stages of the race. Highly rated Kubica in a much better car only beat him by 3 seconds today, on a terrible renault track, so he still has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same class as Alonso.

Ferrari better pray for no more rain, their drivers are just no good in the wet. I dont beleive these stories that their car is THAT bad in the wet. Ive never heard of a great car suddenly becoming terrible in the dry. Its mainly just a convenient excuse to cover up their drivers.

Originally posted by primer


There are Minardi crews in that team but resource and car wise they are very different now. While taking nothing away from Vettel you have to accept that the car STR have been gifted is better than anything Minardi made for themselves.

My thoughts also. As much of a fairy tale it is, Minardi never had a Ferrari powered, Adrian Newey designed, british built car.

Superb race from Vettel, incredible performance! Future WDC, no doubt.
Pity for Bourdais, never got a chance to show what he could do. Newey again gets a victory for one of his cars - he hasn't lost his touch.

Great race from Kubica as well, again a podium, in very difficult conditions. He and Alonso were on the right strategy, as they got their stop essentially "free" because everyone else had to change to intermediates, as well.

McLaren lost a major chance to overtake Ferrari in the WCC and take a nice cushion in WDC, with yesterday's blunder. If Hamilton had started around Kova's position, he would have challenged for the win. As it was, nice damage limitation, though some hard driving at times (Webber and especially Glock). Hamilton was superb in his first stint, pity he didn't get the "free" pitstop and his pace on intermediates, after being initially impressive, suddenly dropped - Massa had much the same problem, I think. Due to tyre usage/graining, perhaps? Hamilton really animated the first third of the race though, with a fantastic march through the field that was a pleasure to watch.
Still, Hamilton had a bad weekend overall: harder dry tyres, a wet but drying circuit in the actual qual and race: he should have extended his lead instead of having it reduced to nothing. Soon, Ferrari's favorite conditions (soft tyres, dry weekend, heat) may come back and Spa and Monza were the type of weekend where Hamilton should have taken advantage. Title will be difficult, very much so.

Kovalainen really should have won, and on the podium his body language told it all. He's still not fast enough in the race.

Ferrari similarly lost a good chance to profit maximally from McLaren's mistakes: Massa made little impression and Raikkonen was couldn't keep up with Hamilton's march through the field. Their car may not be that good in those changing conditions.

Originally posted by AFCA
For the Bourdais fans (are there any here ? - I quite like him), a translated interview...

Q: You're finally a Formula 1 driver. Relieved ?
Bourdais: ''More than that. There were times in which I accepted to no longer make it into Formula 1. When it wouldn't have worked out this time, than it would never have. Next year I'll be 29.''

He's right, for taking the chance.

Q: What do you think about your new teammate Vettel ?
Bourdais: ''Although he's only 20 years old, he has more F1 experience than me. He's the experienced one, I'm the rookie. Who drives just as fast as Liuzzi from the start in Hungary, without knowing the car, must be a good racing driver.''

Already starting to make excuses by labelling Vettel as experienced? I could see this pairing having some trouble between them.

Q: Will you already be driving the Grand Prix' of Monza, Spa, Fuji and Shangha this year ?
Bourdais: ''First of all Toro Rosso must want that, then Newman-Haas must agree. The title in the ChampCar-Serie has the priority.''

Berger apparently has just confirmed Liuzzi will remain until the end of the season. Better for Bourdais I think, since this allows him to settle in with a winter of testing before racing.

Q: Many Formula 1 drivers that have switched to Formula 1 have had bad a experience. Doesn't that discourage you ?
Bourdais: ''I only see the positive examples. Jacques Villeneuve became worldchampion, Juan-Pablo Montoya wasn't exactly the worst there was. It's all about timing. You have to be at the right spot at the right time.''

Q: Newman-Haas fights for victories, Toro Rosso drives at the back. A new feeling ?
Bourdais: ''I'm prepared to grow with the team. Toro Rosso doesn't want to stay at the back. Let's see, perhaps Adrian Newey comes up with a topcar in 2008. The technical structure is already there.''

Well, Bourdais often comes off as too negative, but this is the opposite, really wishful thinking. I can't see Toro Rosso with a top car fighting for podiums in 2008, sorry.

Q: Will it help you that you're used to driving without traction control in the ChampCar ? In 2008 the decive will be banned in Formula 1.
Bourdais: ''I'm afraid the teams will find a way to realise some form of traction control. Somehow they will bring the power on the road in a controlled way. My advantage is that I can give Toro Rosso hints about how we do that in the ChampCar. I like to be technically integrated in a team.''

I hope he's wrong. :

Q: How do you cope with the grooved tyres in Formula 1 ?
Bourdais: ''I don't like them. Grooved tyres is not the way to go to make racing cars slower. It's better to reduce the aerodynamics and to increase the mechanical grip. That makes overtaking easier. The GP2-Serie already does that. My biggest learning demand will be to cope with the tyres. You have to set-up the car in such a way the tyres are not stressed too much.'' -- (There's a fair chance that next year there will be slicks in F1 - AFCA)

Q: With a fourth title you could write ChampCar history. Rick Mears, Bobby Rahal and Michael Andretti have three titles like you.
Bourdais: ''It doesn't interest me. I want to prove that we can become champion in any car. I can no longer hear the stupid chitchat about my team Newman-Haas always having been privileged by Lola. Now we're driving with Panoz-chassis, and we're up front nevertheless.''

Q: How does the Panoz drive in comparison with Lola ?
Bourdais: ''It's more nervous entering corners. I don't like it as much. Panoz has more downforce than the Lola, has a bit more airresistance and is a bit heavier (to drive).''

Q: Why is your team Newman-Haas the best in the championship ?
Bourdais: ''It comes down to details when all the cars are the same. Newman-Haas finds these details better than the other teams.''

Q: How strong are your rival drivers ?
Bourdais: ''From the 17 drivers maybe 7 of them earn money. The rest has to bring money. With that the question is answered.''

Well, this guy surely isn't afraid of speaking his mind.

Translated Q&A with Berger:

Q: What do you say to Vettel's performance ?
Berger: ''It's the best ! It's a long, long time ago that I've experienced something like this at this track. Twenty years ago I won here as a driver. That was a good moment too, but today it's almost better ! It still takes a little time before I really realise it. It's an incredible feeling to win with Toro Rosso. I didn't consider that to be possible.''

Q: It must simply be fantastic to experience such a result...
Berger: ''It's incredible. Standing on top of the podium at Monza: we didn't even dare to dream about it.''

Q: Vettel had already conquered pole position in qualifying and stayed completely calm during the race...
Berger: ''Sebastian really is a very special driver. Today he has shown he can win races, and by the look of things he will also be able to win worldchampionships in the future.''

Q: The entire race Vettel was flawless. Wasn't there a problem of any sort along the way ?
Berger: ''No, there was no problem. You really have to say the victory was absolutely won on merit. There was no luck or particular coincidence involved. It simply was a super strong performance from the team and from the driver.''

Q: He got through the Safety Car period particularly calmly. What was it like from his point of view ?
Berger: ''He started the race very strongly. He zigzagged on track in the last corner up until the last moment, really as if he were an experienced driver. He was well awake there.''

Q: On the eighth lap he almost lost the rear of the car...
Berger: ''That was on the limit, really marginal, but he really had to drive on the limit because we knew some drivers were on a one stopper. We had to build up a gap in order not to get stuck in traffic after the pitstop, not being able to win the race at all.''

Q: The weather didn't get worse as many had expected, instead it stayed dry. This allowed you to change to intermediates at the second, scheduled, stop. That decision was dead right, wasn't it ?
Berger: ''At that point the decision was no longer so hard because a number of cars were already out on track on intermediates. We saw that went well and that it shouldn't have been a problem for us.''

Q: Generally you're a calm man, but how high was your heartbeat in the final laps ?
Berger: ''It's been pretty high the entire day...''

Q: But when did was it clear to you, you were actually able to win the race ?
Berger (laughs) : ''Early in the morning when I went out of bed.''

Q: Sebastian's father Norbert was in tears. Is it a special family ?
Berger: ''I think he'll be crying a lot more for his son in the future ! They're a cool family. But I would like to say something else: people always talk about 'Gerhard Berger's team'. It's a team from Red Bull and me together. Therefore I would also like to thank Red Bull. This year Red Bull Technology has supplied us with a car that is fast in really every circumstance. The team now understand how to set it up and to convert (this into results) well, but the basis came from Red Bull. A big thank you to them !''

Q: Why is your car faster than that of Red Bull Racing ?
Berger: ''I think it's equally fast, but there are differences in the set-up and the 'mood of the day'. Sometimes we better get the job done, sometimes it's Red Bull doing that. Perhaps we also have a small advantage with the Ferrari engine. Since two or three races we've been able to really make use of that. That's why we're a bit in front at the moment.''

How important is Giorgio Ascanelli for you ?
Berger: ''Giorgio is a very important character in the team, I've known him as very good man from my days as a racing driver, especially with regard to setting up the car. He was my race engineer when I won here with Ferrari 20 years ago. We know each other well.''

Q: It was a golden move to hire him, wasn't it ?
Berger: ''Since that time it never went out of my mind. I already wanted to take him with me to other teams back then, but unfortunately that didn't really work out. The fact that he came from Ferrari obviously is a very good story for Toro Rosso. Because to win you need a team. Now Toro Rosso really is a strong racing team.''

Q: How many people are working for Toro Rosso today ?
Berger: ''180. Though in comparison with other teams one should keep in mind that we get a lot of technology from Red Bull Technology. Therefore it's clear that we have a bit less people, but even then we're a small team. But we work very well and very efficiently.''

Q: Many employees have been here since the Minardi era. They were never rewarded for their work back then. Isn't it nice that they now have something to celebrate as well ?
Berger: ''That's incredibly joyful because we've been fighting for two years to get rid of the old Minardi-culture and get a winning mentally into the team instead. Many have dropped out because they weren't able to change over. Those that are here now are the ones that have said: 'We go the tough way!' That's the biggest success for them. I think they'll now acquire a taste for it.''

Q: In the future you will no longer be allowed to use Red Bull customer cars. Do you already have thoughts about that ?
Berger: ''Many, but today I'm really not thinking about it...''

Q: Is there perhaps still a chance that Vettel stays in the faster Red Bull car, so at Toro Rosso...
Berger: ''It's a great loss for the team when Sebastian leaves us. On the other hand we're part of the Red Bull family and we agree that Sebastian should be there, where it's best for Red Bull.''

Q: Can he be kept within the Red Bull family, or will he end up at one of the big teams at some stage anyway ?
Berger: ''That depends on us. When we give him a car with which he can win races, then there's nothing nicer than winning races for Red Bull. Then it could well be that he stays.''

Q: Bourdais had a problem at the start straight away, what was wrong ?
Berger: ''The engine stalled, but we don't know exactly know why yet. Shortly before the start we changed the steering wheel. I think that something has gone wrong there, but we still have to analyse it.''

Q: A shame because his position on the grid was very good. How do you go about your driver in such a situation ?
Berger: ''He's now in the shadow of this success. You should obviously look after him straight away because he's obviously suffering a lot. He was in a good starting position and has seen what was possible. Having a technical problem at a moment like that hurts.''

-----------------------------------------------------------

Translated Q&A with Tost:

Q: What does this victory feel like ? One shouldn't forget where you started this adventure...
Tost (laughs) : ''We started from pole position. No, seriously: a few years ago we wouldn't have thought to win here at Monza in 2008. Monza is something special for the Italian teams and drivers. Monza has a fantastic history. To win a race here, it being the first of the team with Sebastian as the youngest driver ever winning a GP, is outstanding.''

Q: The atmosphere must be unbelievable now...
Tost: ''You can see it. All the boys are celebrating.''

Q: How long will you be celebrating at the factory now ?
Tost: ''Tomorrow I'll fly to Jerez. There we will test with two potentially new drivers: Sato and Buemi.''

Q: Sebastian did a perfect job, didn't he ?
Tost: ''From the first lap on it was a perfect drive. Since Friday he has been preparing in the best way because even though the circumstances on track were not always good, he always went out to see where there was water, where to watch out, where you catch wind, etc. Bourdais did the same by the way. He was able to use all the information that he had collected on Friday and Saturday to win the race. Sebastian controlled the race all the time. The strategy was perfect, the same goes for the pitstops.''

Q: Why did you chose to go for a short first stint ?
Tost: ''Firstly, we wanted to be at the front at the start. Secondly we wanted to have free visibility in case it would rain. Thirdly we didn't stress the tyres with too much weight. Fourthly we wanted to remain flexible in case we had to change from extreme wets to intermediates.''

Q: This victory is also a statement from the team...
Tost: ''We have won here, but I have to admit that the circumstances played into our hands because we would have only become sixth or seventh if it had been dry. You could see that in the test here. The rain has helped us and particularly our strategy because we were on a short first stint, and that was exactly right. We took the tyre degradation into account and expected our strategy to be the fastest one. Luckily we've proved that.''

Q: You've perfectly prepared the Red Bull car. How impressed are you with the team members and Giorgio Ascanelli in particular ?
Tost: ''Ascanelli is on of the fathers of the team. He has contributed all his technical know how from the past. That's the main reason for this victory.''

Q: Did it help the team, that isn't used to having a leading position on track, to have someone like him on the pitwall ?
Tost: ''Certainly.''

Q: What did you say to Sebastian in the final laps over the radio ?
Tost: ''Nothing. It was absolutely calm because he drove well and his laptimes were very fast. We would have only bothered him if we had told him to drive slower or in a different way. So we let him alone. As we now know: he's experienced enough to bring home a result like that.''

Q: You've obtained the first result for Red Bull. That must be very satisfactory, especially since you don't just get the car delivered but also develop it yourself, right ?
Tost: ''I have to say that Adrian Newey and Red Bull Technology have done a fantastic job because we get the basis of the car from Red Bull Technology. We set up the car ourselves, but actually each driver does that since he has his own preferences. The one driver wants hard springs, the other one soft ones, etc. That's basically the job we do in Faenza.''

Q: Now your sixth in the constructors championship. What's your aim for the rest of the season ?
Tost: ''We have made a leap forward but we have to keep with our feet on the ground. I would be happy if we collect points in the final five races. I don't think we'll win another race this year because Ferrari, McLaren and BMW Sauber are still ahead of us, clearly that is.''

Q: Last year at the rain race in Fuji you almost made it to the podium already. Do you hope for similar circumstances in the final races ?
Tost: ''Certainly ! We're a racing team and we always want to end up as far to the front as possible. When we're best in the rain that I pray for rain all the time ! That's only logical !''

Q: Does this success change anything to the future plans ? Mateschitz has offered his 50% stake in the team for sale...
Tost: ''I don't know. Mateschitz should answer that question. I expect that the price of the team has risen ! That's good for him because he's a businessman that's willing to regain the money he has spent. But for the team itself not much changes. Hopefully we'll get a few new sponsors because of it. The basis for that is obviously better being a winner rather than a looser.''

Q: At Monza in 2005 Minardi was still the worst team. In the period in between you've improved tremendously...
Tost: Yes. There are several factors. The first one factor is Red Bull, or rather Mateschitz. Without them we wouldn't have been here celebrating this victory. The second factor is Red Bull Technology. They supply us with a very good car. The third factor is Ferrari, they supply us very strong engines as you can see. We work together with them very closely and we're very happy about our collaboration.''

''Then the drivers shouldn't be forgotten about either because they're doing a fantastic job despite the fact they're still pretty new to F1. Vettel is driving his first full season. His performance curve is a very steep one. Then there's Ascanelli with his technical team, they do a staggeringly good job. We have the car under control and know how to set it up. That's important for the drivers in order for them to feel comfortable in the car. That's one of our most important factors for this success. In Faenza we're now improving our infrastructure. We're growing step by step. You can see the results.''

Q: You're no longer allowed to use customer cars in 2010. You have to build an own chassis. What are your plans regarding this ?
Tost: ''We've already begun extending the team for it to become a constructor. In 2005 we started off with 80 people. Now we're with 175. Another 80 will be added to that in the near future. These are the steps we have to make to become a constructor. We're also negotiating with several (owners of) windtunnels. That's a big task.''

''I'm not convinced that that is the right way for Formula 1, because we have six manufacturers. I think we should have six manufacturers and six private teams, and each private team should cooperate with a manufacture. Red Bull's philosophy was to have an engineering centre that supplies two teams with cars. That has reduced the costs because we only spend a quarter of the budgets of other teams. Nevertheless we're able to win, as we've shown at here. So far we've gone the right way in terms of efficiency and economics. But the regulations no longer allow this so we'll have to do it differently in the future.''

Q: ''Do you think things will still change as far the customer cars are concerned ?
Tost: ''When people use their brains then that will be the case. Just look at what's happening in the world of business: everyone's working together ! Even the car manufacturers start co-operations. Why ? They no longer want to spend so much money on R&D, which is comprehensible when, at the end of the day, the results almost stay the same.''

''We're now looking for a windtunnel. Even if we were to let a 130 people work in the windtunnel, we wouldn't build a revolutionary car because the regulations and the physical laws impede that. All the cars almost look the same. I'd like to bet that there are no more than five people that would be able to tell which car is from which team if they were all painted in white. But never mind, rules are rules. We try to achieve the best. We'll see the results in the future.''

Originally posted by undersquare
There's speculation that STR might switch to Honda engines, with Sato, and RB take back the Ferrari engine supply (which they signed for originally before Newey arrived and wanted Renault).

I would!

F1Live

Originally posted by AFCA


I think that's very unlikely. All the teams have already made considerable progress on next year's car. Deciding to change engine supplier I think is the equivalent of walking straight to the grave. And not just because of the engine: also in terms of gearbox and KERS design, something the teams are working on together very closely. It's just too late and all the work that has been done on the points I mentioned would turn out to be useless...

Berger denies Sato would be brining along Honda engines: ''Whether or not Sato will join us is solely dependent on his performance.''

''First of all we have a valid contract. And with 'we' I mean Toro Rosso (as opposed to Red Bull I guess - AFCA). Secondly we're very happy with Ferrari. And thirdly we're obviously willing to further improve next year. With a new engine we would have to start from scratch again in many areas. And that's not our aim.''

Would the team get Honda engines more easily/cheaply with Sato on board though ? ''Possibly, but that's not what it's about.''

-------

As for Bourdais not testing next week (Buemi day 1, Sato day 2, Vettel day 3), Berger: ''The fact Bourdais isn't going to test doesn't mean anything.'' Tost: ''Vettel will be in the car on the third day because we want to test some parts with him that so far haven't suited him very well and we want to hear his opinion about them.''

Meanwhile, after the German had already denied it himself, Marko came out saying that Vettel taking over Coulthard's seat from Monza onwards is bollocks: ''I don't know who's been spreading this around but it's nonsense.''

For the Bourdais fans (are there any here ? - I quite like him), a translated interview...

Q: You're finally a Formula 1 driver. Relieved ?
Bourdais: ''More than that. There were times in which I accepted to no longer make it into Formula 1. When it wouldn't have worked out this time, than it would never have. Next year I'll be 29.''

Q: How nervous were you that maybe an the last moment it wouldn't have worked out ?
Bourdais: ''Not at all nervous. Formula 1 has always been a dream. I have already fulfilled these dreams with the testdrives for Toro Rosso. I was in peace with myself. It wouldn't have been the end of the world if I again wouldn't have made it.''

Q: What do you think about your new teammate Vettel ?
Bourdais: ''Although he's only 20 years old, he has more F1 experience than me. He's the experienced one, I'm the rookie. Who drives just as fast as Liuzzi from the start in Hungary, without knowing the car, must be a good racing driver.''

Q: Will you already be driving the Grand Prix' of Monza, Spa, Fuji and Shangha this year ?
Bourdais: ''First of all Toro Rosso must want that, then Newman-Haas must agree. The title in the ChampCar-Serie has the priority.''

Q: Would it not be a problem to 'jump' from continent to continent, one time driving in ChampCar, the other time in F1 ?
Bourdais: ''But that's what I do for years now anyway. This year I've often been in Europe, to test with Peugeot for Le Mans, to drive the 24 hours. There's no bigger difference between a ChampCar and a sportscars.''

Q: Many Formula 1 drivers that have switched to Formula 1 have had bad a experience. Doesn't that discourage you ?
Bourdais: ''I only see the positive examples. Jacques Villeneuve became worldchampion, Juan-Pablo Montoya wasn't exactly the worst there was. It's all about timing. You have to be at the right spot at the right time.''

Q: Newman-Haas fights for victories, Toro Rosso drives at the back. A new feeling ?
Bourdais: ''I'm prepared to grow with the team. Toro Rosso doesn't want to stay at the back. Let's see, perhaps Adrian Newey comes up with a topcar in 2008. The technical structure is already there.''

Q: Will it help you that you're used to driving without traction control in the ChampCar ? In 2008 the decive will be banned in Formula 1.
Bourdais: ''I'm afraid the teams will find a way to realise some form of traction control. Somehow they will bring the power on the road in a controlled way. My advantage is that I can give Toro Rosso hints about how we do that in the ChampCar. I like to be technically integrated in a team.''

Q: How do you cope with the grooved tyres in Formula 1 ?
Bourdais: ''I don't like them. Grooved tyres is not the way to go to make racing cars slower. It's better to reduce the aerodynamics and to increase the mechanical grip. That makes overtaking easier. The GP2-Serie already does that. My biggest learning demand will be to cope with the tyres. You have to set-up the car in such a way the tyres are not stressed too much.'' -- (There's a fair chance that next year there will be slicks in F1 - AFCA)

Q: With a fourth title you could write ChampCar history. Rick Mears, Bobby Rahal and Michael Andretti have three titles like you.
Bourdais: ''It doesn't interest me. I want to prove that we can become champion in any car. I can no longer hear the stupid chitchat about my team Newman-Haas always having been privileged by Lola. Now we're driving with Panoz-chassis, and we're up front nevertheless.''

Q: How does the Panoz drive in comparison with Lola ?
Bourdais: ''It's more nervous entering corners. I don't like it as much. Panoz has more downforce than the Lola, has a bit more airresistance and is a bit heavier (to drive).''

Q: Why is your team Newman-Haas the best in the championship ?
Bourdais: ''It comes down to details when all the cars are the same. Newman-Haas finds these details better than the other teams.''

Q: How strong are your rival drivers ?
Bourdais: ''From the 17 drivers maybe 7 of them earn money. The rest has to bring money. With that the question is answered.''

Alonso ... Never gave up despite having terrible machinery for half the season, and once he got his hands on decent machinery (3rd best car) he outscored the lot of them and won 2 races, beating a mclaren and bmw and finishing close to Kimi and widely acclaimed Kubica. The best driver of the season imo.

Hamilton...Was scrappy and made many mistakes but still dominated his team mate and won the wc in the second best car. Was lucky his main opponent was a fumbling Massa, otherwise he wouldnt have gotten close the wc though.

Kubica...Had a great 2/3's of a season but really fell away from Spa, and was outpaced by Heidfeld once the car started to become difficult. The jury is still out on him as to whether he can be complete or just fast in certain cars. Overall Solid, but overhyped in the end.

Massa...I think he made the most out of his limited abilities in the best car. He probably drove better than he was in the past but hes still not top class and was too inconsistent and made too many mistakes for a driver of his experience. I dont think he will get this close again.


Vettel...Had a great win and some good drives but i think hes been overrated as the car hes driving underrated. A Newey chassis and a ferrari engine is no joke so I dont think he worked the miracles many suggested. Even at Monza, that chassis dominted the front of the grid. Good season but jury still out.

Webber... Dominated his experienced team mate and never stopped trying. I think he will test vettel hard in 09.

Both drivers qualified in the top 4 for that race. Its funny how they try to call the torro rosso a Minardi when in reality It was a magnificent Newey chariot.

The 1992 Benetton WAS statistically a more superior car than the 2008 Toro Rosso.

Evidence and Facts??

1992 Benetton - Finished 3rd in WCC (Drivers 3rd and 6th)
2008 Toro Rosso - Finished 6th in WCC (Drivers 8th and 17th)

Questioning Vettel's driver skill in a 'Newey Chariot' of a 2008 Toro Rosso? It wasn't exactly winning or scoring left right and centre, was it? Schumacher alone got 7 other podiums on top of that maiden win.

And let's just agree for your benefit only that the 2008 Toro Rosso was superior (mega LOL)...

Let's compare the cars capability in the hands of the little punkaSS German rookie to non other than the established experienced racer and multi Champcar Champion teammate Bourdais...

Vettel - Best result was a win at Monza. A string of points finishes, 4ths and 5ths. No more podiums.
Bourdais - Best Result in two seasons of 'Newey Chariots' was 7th. Conveniently at the same Spa circuit.

...versus the 3rd Placed WCC 1992 Benetton.

2008 Toro Rosso, clearly a superior 'newey chariot' in comparison!

Fullhouse, you sir, are an idiot!

Try reading the articles on the Red Bull program in the last issue of Autosport, they're very illuminating. Takeaway from them for me were: 1). It was Newey's idea, not Marko's, to sack both STR drivers after 2011, as it was clear by then that neither would ever be promoted to RBR; 2). They look for flaws in a driver's approach, try to pound them out, and cut bait if they can't; 3). They demand total commitment from the drivers in the program; and 4). They're not looking for guys who can win at STR, they're looking for guys who can win at RBR.

 

Seems clear that Alguersuari likely fell short in the commitment department, and didn't impress much on the track either. At the time I too thought they gave up on him way early but Jamie post-sacking does seem more interested in the DJ biz than in resurrecting his F1 career. 

 

As to point 4 and the myth that the STR guys needed to win at STR to be considered for promotion, remember that Vettel's promotion to RBR was announced in 2008 during the run-up to Hockenheim, long before the race at Monza. His win at Monza was a very nice bonus but didn't change his career trajectory.

This. Also, Vettel would never have won that race if the weekend had stayed dry. I also doubt he would have won if Hamilton had qualified himself well into Q3.

 

Absolutely, as to Hamilton. It's become a bit lost to memory that he had a couple of duff weekends in the last third of the 2008 season, and Monza was one of them.

 

F1 is and should be a cutthroat business and if a driver have 2 seasons and fail to deliver his employer, then I do not see any reason to find the driver being treated unfairly. I would actually want a lot more drivers dropped, since as someone posted above there are hundreds of drivers equally talented as the bottom half of the current grid.

 

Di Resta - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat. 

Sutil       - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

Massa    - We know how good he used to be, he is not anymore and there is no reason for a team to take a chance on him.

Chiton     - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.   

Van der Garde - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

 

Agreed, especially the cut-throat approach. Apparently that was Newey's argument for getting rid of Buemi and Alguersuari. I wouldn't retain any of the drivers you named but would differ with you only in arguing that Massa was always overrated. My recent watch-through of the season 2008 suggests he was as error-prone then as he is now and only got into a position to win a WDC through Hamilton's mistakes (including Hamilton's ruining of Raikkonen's race at Canada).

 

Also enjoyed the (intentional?) misspelling of Chilton. The amended version is an accurate summary of his skills.

Well, obviously it suggests that the driver is a less important element in case of Vettel. I don't have an issue with the statement as such, but the mutual Hamilton/Alonso praise is a bit annoying (and of course they can hardly be objective on that matter). What's worse from a forum perspective, however, is the quality of some threads since Vettel is winning.

I don't think he's saying the driver is less important in Vettel's case. That's crazy, and of all people Alonso should know better. I think Alonso is saying that once again Newey has given Vettel a dominant car in the last few races because previously he was challenging them and beating them. To me it seems the problem is that Alonso and Hamilton rate each highly in which case this becomes a fan insecurity problem and not so much what the drivers have said.

Vettel had a few stunning drives each year, so it's not exactly an anomaly.To compare Vettel and Perez at that state, you have to ignore what Vettel did in the past 4 years.

This is correct but subsequent to 2008 Vettel has been in championship contending/winning cars. If he didn't have stunning drives in each year then it would be worrying. Anyway, what I was implying is that Vettel's drive in Monza 2008 can be likened to Perez' drive in Malaysia 2012 in that it was an anomaly. I don't think either performance proves anything and bringing it up is pointless.