Red Bull Racing 2021 (Team thread)

Wasn't there a clause preventing manufacturers from having too big a gap to the competition?

That’s what Red Bull and Ferrari wanted, but Renault and Mercedes were against, so that BOP rule didn’t make it.

News emerged from Thursday's F1 Commission meeting that the engine freeze had not only been approved, but had been so with unanimous agreement between the teams. Importantly, no mechanism to balance performance was agreed or seriously considered.

https://www.autospor...477525/5477525/

I’m so happy for this title that awards the tremendous work of Max and the RB team.
But now I start to think about 2022. Aren’t you worried that RB put lot of efforts in 2021 and that can impact 2022 work ?
When I red Mercedes didn’t use a token this year, I start to be worried.
I really hope they can proudly defend their title next year.

Also Newey was out for like 2 months late summer - early autumn, which is a critical phase of next year's car. I hope it won't cost too much.

That’s what Red Bull and Ferrari wanted, but Renault and Mercedes were against, so that BOP rule didn’t make it.

 

 

 

https://www.autospor...477525/5477525/

So if I understand this correctly, the PUs the teams had in Abu Dhabi will stay the same ones until 2025? All gaps are locked in?

Edited by renzmann, 18 December 2021 - 12:58.

So if I understand this correctly, the PUs the teams had in Abu Dhabi will stay the same ones until 2025? All gaps are locked in?

I wonder the same. This year the engines should stay the same to. But we saw that there still is a lot of room where you can work. 

I wonder the same. This year the engines should stay the same to. But we saw that there still is a lot of room where you can work. 

If that's all, that would rather be good news. The Merc PU wasn't that much faster than the Honda when it still had to endure 7 or 8 races. The rocket PU only was possible due to motor mapping trickery. That cat is out of the bag now, so of RBR would want this, they could do the same. If anything, the Honda PU might even have more BHP to unlock, considering the fact the PU proved more reliable than the Merc.

I'm not sure whether I read ivanhoe's link right, though. If manufacturers are allowed to introduce one last PU for the start of 2022, RBR have a big problem. They don't have the means to develope yet, I reckon.

If that's all, that would rather be good news. The Merc PU wasn't that much faster than the Honda when it still had to endure 7 or 8 races. The rocket PU only was possible due to motor mapping trickery. That cat is out of the bag now, so of RBR would want this, they could do the same. If anything, the Honda PU might even have more BHP to unlock, considering the fact the PU proved more reliable than the Merc.

 

I'm not sure whether I read ivanhoe's link right, though. If manufacturers are allowed to introduce one last PU for the start of 2022, RBR have a big problem. They don't have the means to develope yet, I reckon.

Pretty sure a team as Red Bull put a lot of thought in how they have a competative engine in 2022. Not worried at all. 

Pretty sure a team as Red Bull put a lot of thought in how they have a competative engine in 2022. Not worried at all. 

You would certainly think so. Then again, Merc approved off the 2021 aero changes and assumed they wouldn't need to develope their car much in 2021.

You would certainly think so. Then again, Merc approved off the 2021 aero changes and assumed they wouldn't need to develope their car much in 2021.

Pretty sure they developed the car during the season. Maybe at a slow start after winning 3 of the first 4 races. However the token thing is just mind boggling. There must have heen something going on. I just can't believe it's because they thought they would not need it. Something must have happened. 

Can I have a dumb question? Are engines next year still hybrids?

Pretty sure they developed the car during the season. Maybe at a slow start after winning 3 of the first 4 races. However the token thing is just mind boggling. There must have heen something going on. I just can't believe it's because they thought they would not need it. Something must have happened. 

They eventually did, yes, but that wasn't planned at all. To be fair, rumours say they did want to spend the token on a new nose, but failed the crash test. They apparently did not think it be necessary to spend the token elsewhere, though. They were very confident about the 2021 season.

Maybe that's one of the biggest wins this year. Red Bull have stopped Merc's successful formula of starting to develope the next car months ahead of the competition.

Can I have a dumb question? Are engines next year still hybrids?

If that's all, that would rather be good news. The Merc PU wasn't that much faster than the Honda when it still had to endure 7 or 8 races. The rocket PU only was possible due to motor mapping trickery.

Same engines (or ‘Power Units’) as this year.

*groans*

Edited by Whitelightning, 18 December 2021 - 13:37.

If that's all, that would rather be good news. The Merc PU wasn't that much faster than the Honda when it still had to endure 7 or 8 races. The rocket PU only was possible due to motor mapping trickery. That cat is out of the bag now, so of RBR would want this, they could do the same. If anything, the Honda PU might even have more BHP to unlock, considering the fact the PU proved more reliable than the Merc.

 

I'm not sure whether I read ivanhoe's link right, though. If manufacturers are allowed to introduce one last PU for the start of 2022, RBR have a big problem. They don't have the means to develope yet, I reckon.

https://www.formula1...n3xgTBVstL.html

Edited by Clatter, 18 December 2021 - 13:42.

Everything about 2022 screams Mercedes walkover but got a feeling Adrian will bring a monster next year

OK, so I've been researching this question for minutes now, but I can't come up with an answer.

What does "2022 engine freeze" mean exactly? Since there was very limited potential to update the 2021 PU, I'd assume it means the Abu Dhabi 2021 engines are the same as the ones we'll see in next year's testing. I'm not sure it does, though. Are teams allowed to introduce another, final PU for the star of 2022? If so, do they only have about 90 days to develope that PU (time between 2021 season and 2022 season) or were they even allowed to develope an all-new PU behind the scenes for the last couple of months?

OK, so I've been researching this question for minutes now, but I can't come up with an answer.

What does "2022 engine freeze" mean exactly? Since there was very limited potential to update the 2021 PU, I'd assume it means the Abu Dhabi 2021 engines are the same as the ones we'll see in next year's testing. I'm not sure it does, though. Are teams allowed to introduce another, final PU for the star of 2022? If so, do they only have about 90 days to develope that PU (time between 2021 season and 2022 season) or were they even allowed to develope an all-new PU behind the scenes for the last couple of months?

OK, so I've been researching this question for minutes now, but I can't come up with an answer.

 

What does "2022 engine freeze" mean exactly? Since there was very limited potential to update the 2021 PU, I'd assume it means the Abu Dhabi 2021 engines are the same as the ones we'll see in next year's testing. I'm not sure it does, though. Are teams allowed to introduce another, final PU for the star of 2022? If so, do they only have about 90 days to develope that PU (time between 2021 season and 2022 season) or were they even allowed to develope an all-new PU behind the scenes for the last couple of months?

I think it is the latter.

They can have one final update for 2022, but the rules don’t state when they could start / could not start working on the 2022 PU’s.

After 2022 they are locked in to that spec until the new rules enter into force (2025 or 2026, I always forget).

Edited by ferrarista, 18 December 2021 - 13:56.

So if I understand this correctly, the PUs the teams had in Abu Dhabi will stay the same ones until 2025? All gaps are locked in?

Thanks. Wow, so basically, Red Bull are a full season of PU development behind the competition by March/September 2022? Honda won't develope/hasn't developed anything for 2022, no?

Thanks. Wow, so basically, Red Bull are a full season of PU development behind the competition by March/September 2022? Honda won't develope/hasn't developed anything for 2022, no?

I think I've read that Honda will help out RB PowerTrains for 2022 but I didn't hear anything substantial. You would imagine that Honda will certainly be behind Ferrari/Mercedes next year, so a good car is needed.

Edited by Whitelightning, 18 December 2021 - 14:26.

Thanks. Wow, so basically, Red Bull are a full season of PU development behind the competition by March/September 2022? Honda won't develope/hasn't developed anything for 2022, no?

Does it really matter though? RB went all in for 2021 to secure the championship for Max and even though its not the outcome they expected (i.e. kind of a paper championship) its still the drivers championship! So target met and focus now on 2022.

Not sure if they had the resources to focus on both 2021 and 2022?

Thanks. Wow, so basically, Red Bull are a full season of PU development behind the competition by March/September 2022? Honda won't develope/hasn't developed anything for 2022, no?

Regarding the Honda engine I know this years engine is the 2022 engine so I’m not sure how much more development they can push out until the freeze

Edited by JimmyTheFox, 18 December 2021 - 15:10.

Yeah, I am 100% sure there are arrangements in place between Honda and Red Bull for the development of the 2022 PU. No way they are going to enter a 4 season period with an outdated PU.

Edited by DW46, 18 December 2021 - 15:41.

They are developing the PU for 2022, what they finished the season with won’t be the PU for the next few years. That’s why RedBull hired so many people from Mercedes and why Honda will also assist them basically everyone has 3 more months to upgrade their engines AFAIK.

The Mercedes guys can’t start working yet, usually they have a long mandatory gardening leave.

Yeah, I am 100% sure there are arrangements in place between Honda and Red Bull for the development of the 2022 PU. No way they are going to enter a 4 season period with an outdated PU.

IIRC, there will be Honda personnel seconded to RBR to ensure continuity.  

Yeah, I am 100% sure there are arrangements in place between Honda and Red Bull for the development of the 2022 PU. No way they are going to enter a 4 season period with an outdated PU.

I sure hope so. This all sounds rather shaky, though. Is Verstappen really sure he wants to stay at Red Bull?

Anyhow, I do understand why you were afraid of a monster Mercedes PU now!

The Mercedes guys can’t start working yet, usually they have a long mandatory gardening leave.

What’s the point in hiring them if the engine gets frozen in 3 months anyway. I’m thinking they’re working for RBR already or starting January 2022.

They were poached for developing the PU for 2026 and onwards. Red Bull powertrains aren’t equipped yet to develop their own engine. I’d expect they are dependent on Honda for 2022-2025.

What’s the point in hiring them if the engine gets frozen in 3 months anyway. I’m thinking they’re working for RBR already or starting January 2022.

What’s the point in hiring them if the engine gets frozen in 3 months anyway. I’m thinking they’re working for RBR already or starting January 2022.

Wondered that myself. There's not much they can do even if they start in January 2022, the engines for next season are probably about finished by now, and after that they are frozen until 2026. It's probably part of a long term engine development plan to prepare for 2026 (which was initially going to be 2025).

If the price to pay for Max' world championship is a lackluster 2022 season so be it. The problem of course is if Honda have not really invested in the 2022 engine and therefore Red Bull are not competitive in 2022 it will probably mean they are also not competitive in 2023, 2024 and 2025. That's a long time. So fingers crossed they have been working on something good and we don't have to return to the snorefest Mercedes domination. We'll find out soon enough.

Max would be a fool to extend his contract now (from a purely rational perspective). Lets see where they stand in 2022 first.

Wasn't there a clause preventing manufacturers from having too big a gap to the competition?

What is too big of a gap... Brazil was quite a gap in my opinion.

I think the Merc engine has still room to improve and the efficiency is really incredible.

Say we have another 2014 scenario on our hands there is no way Max is staying unless the end of the season is strong with development and fighting at the front again

Max would be a fool to extend his contract now (from a purely rational perspective). Lets see where they stand in 2022 first.

Fully agree. He would be stupid to extend now, he won the championship, yes but he has to wait to see how the RB17 is. If it's only capable of winning 2-3 races like RB pre 2021, he should look for a seat elsewhere. I don't really buy into his talk "Can we do this 10-15 more years", why would a driver of his calibre spend the best years of his F1 carrer in a car not capable of fighting for the World Championship. I really don't think RB will be in the fight next year, they given up so much time on RB17 to make sure they win this title, and will Honda really help develop 2022 engine that much? They already said this year's engine is 2022 engine, so basically they did what they could. If I was Max, I would wait it out for first 5-6 races and if the car is not up to it , try to push a move to Ferrari or Mercedes (because I think that will be the teams to beat in the future), I think that's plausible with his exit clauses. I just don't have a good feeling about RB next year, but this team has surprised me before, but Max's main priority should not be loyalty, rather find a car that can get him more championships in his carrer.

Edited by MaroF1, 18 December 2021 - 18:37.

Sainz is looking to tighten his contract with Ferrari.  Mercedes looks like poisoned chalice for the Verstappen family at the moment. Time heals all wounds but I don't think that will be within the next 1-2 years and not with Toto.

Only way I see MV to Ferrari is if Leclerc goes to Mercedes. 

Edited by ARTGP, 18 December 2021 - 18:41.

Verstappen would have no issue working with Toto, let’s be real.

I'm quite sure he does.

Sainz is looking to tighten his contract with Ferrari.  Mercedes looks like poisoned chalice for the Verstappen family at the moment. Time heals all wounds but I don't think that will be within the next 1-2 years and not with Toto.

 

Only way I see MV to Ferrari is if Leclerc goes to Mercedes. 

So if I understand this correctly, the PUs the teams had in Abu Dhabi will stay the same ones until 2025? All gaps are locked in?