Arnold Glass and his BRM P48

Barry,

Graham Howard should be able to subscribe to this forum if you give him this URL which should take him straight to this forum:-

http://www.atlasf1.c....php?forumid=10

Then click on the little "Register" button near the top of the page, and go from there. The only problem is that he can't use a Hotmail or Yahoo type email address to register, which is a pain.

A question for anyone, how well did Arnold Glass go in the Aurora F1 series??? It must have been kept quite as I can't remember it being reported in the Australian press.

He must have been getting on by the late 80's. Is he still around???

Chris
www.drive.to/beechey

Originally posted by normbeechey
Is he still around???[/url]

Very much so - nattered for an hour with him last week...

I guess we have to just be patient and wait till Barry gets the message to Graham...

I know he'll be an asset on the forum... if he spends much time here...

Arnold Glass was at Oran Park today (25/1) for the historic meeting.

Bruce Moxon

And yes, Graham would be a huge asset here. (Mind like a steel trap)

It must be 38 years since he's been there!

So how old is he now?

Trinkets, I mean, Graham's age is not under discussion.

Yes Arnold Glass was at Oran Park today. I was up in the commentary box (for the first time ) and we were handed a note by Wayne Wilson to mention that Arnold Glass was visiting Oran Park with his grandson. He was taken for a lapof the circuit in the course car.

It was interesting in that the piece of paper we were given had crossed out the words "multi-millionnare" and the fact that he used to sell lear jets - I guess they did not want to proclaim his affluence

I was told that he was the same age as Jack Brabham - that makes him 76.

If Barry, Bruce and Graham(?) are reading this, then maybe them can pop into the commentary box tomorrow (Sunday) and give a couple of know-nothing-novices a hand with some of these old racings cars. Sunday's forecast is for 42 degrees, and we have air-conditioning and cold drinks....

I don't think the one known (in the trade) as Carnal Arnold ever sold Lear Jets...

That was Bib Stillwell.

He did own - and fly - a brace of P51 Mustangs.... cooo.....

Dang!

Thanks for the invitation Paul. I'd have taken it up too, (just for the air and drinks) but I didn't see it until after I came home on Sunday.

Not sure I could have been all that much help. I was shepherding a few friends who thought the control tower was a pub - they wanted beer. We'll, so did I!

Good day's racing (up to 2 pm when I gave it away). I slept for four hours when I came home. The sun will do that to you.

I got a lot of pictures - look for them in MRA.

Don't the group S cars put on a good show?


Bruce Moxon

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I don't think the one known (in the trade) as Carnal Arnold ever sold Lear Jets...

That was Bib Stillwell.

I realise that Bib Stillwell was the President of Lear Jet Corp in America, but I was just reading what was written in the Gkass bio we were given (shoul've kept it and quoted from it.) But IIRC it did mention that he flew Mustangs, was involved with high speed boats and that he drove the Aurora F1 - which was news to me. Of course he made his fortune with Capital Motors selling Datsuns/Nissans and was responsible for the used car bible - the Glass Guide.

Bruce, I thought my last response may have been too late last night. I was meaning to mention Glass, TNF and Marsden Park racing circuit (which my co-commentator was unaware of) in the commentary but didn't get the opportunity. Yes, the racing was good but the heat took its toll - only 5 cars fronting for the last pre 70 Division 2 race for Sports and Racing Cars!

Good to see you enjoyed the Group S prod sports cars. We might not be popular with the purists, being cars without history, but along with the Touring Cars we have the largest grids and good racing. Alas the historic cars can often be processional, as there is such a diversity of classes running together. I don't run the January meeting at Oran Park because its too hot - besides I'm saving up my pennies to race my Alfa at Phillip Island where of course Alfa Romeo are the featured marque. It looks like about 7 Alfas from NSW will make the trip south!

Bruce, OT I know, but did our mutual friend mention at the Bathurst 24 Hour that a certain CAMS official believed that you were writing under the non de plume of the "Reverend Limiter"

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It must be 38 years since he's been there!

Trinkets was an interested spectator at last years Oran Park Historic
meeting....... Or was it the year before?

Paul, no I'm not the Reverend Limiter. But I do know who he is and we're quite good friends.

I've been accused a few times, to be honest. No, I use my own name for almost everything, except when I want to give someone a good spray, when I have a non-de-keyboard. I once got Auto Action's letter of the week under that name!

Who was the CAMS official?

And bugger the purists. Without the Group S and N cars, the enries might have been a bit thin.

Ray Hangar's kid's quick, isn't he?

Bruce Moxon

Bruce, I'm a good friend of the Reverend Limiter, infact he is my boss's brother I'll tell you the story. I had written a letter to Auto Action complaining about limiting the Reverend Limiters column (does that make sense!) It so happened that CMAS official Evan Jones asked Mark Griffin (of Model Cars Too - and both mutual friends) whether I knew the Rev. Mark replied that, yes I did, but he could reveal his name! Evan immediately thought it was Bruce Moxon.
Mark had a hard time controlling himself and when I told the Rev he thought it was just brilliant

I agree with your comments re Group S and N. Sure our cars have no competition history, but without the cars with no history the cars with history would be history I'm sure this is not lost on the HSRCA committee, but not some of the purists ;)

Yes, Ty Hangar in the March 77 Atlantic really made Richard Carter's Ralt RT4 look ordinary. No doubt Richard is still coming to grips with the RT4 but it doesn't detract for Ty's effort - 40 second laps is not hanging around (pardon the pun.) BTW, what are Ty's plans for 2003?

Originally posted by Doug Nye
He did own - and fly - a brace of P51 Mustangs.... cooo.....

A conversation between another car dealer, Denis Geary, and Trinkets...

"I've got myself the John Scott-Davies* Lola T70," said Denis.

"Are you going to race that? It's a bit old now..." replied Glass.

"No, I've converted it to a road car, put a roof on it etc."

"Oh," came the excited response, complete with the Glass lisp, "what a lovely toy!"

...and after some further discussion...

"I've just got a couple of toys for myself too," Glass chipped in.

"What have you got?" Geary asked the magnate of the Nissans, Knight Commander of Parramatta Road and former frequenter of the circuits.

"Two Gloster Meteor Jets..."

I know Evan. Why didn't he ask me himself? I'll tell LW we've been mixed up again.

There are some silly people around.

I have in mind a Group NC car myself - an RX2. Might be a bit of a job convincing the wife, though.



BM

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Allen, I can't get my thinking fixed on Anderson, but Graham Wood I recall.. that car was a deep red. Wood might have been driving an Osborne car.

Found more on Anderson for you, Allen... though not much more...

Through much of 1969 he appears at Lakeside and Surfers Paradise race meetings in the Cooper, his name is Bill. He's slow (1:33 was his grid time in the race you mentioned... 20+ seconds off the pace) and did little other than just tool around. Then there's no more.

But there's a Geoff Anderson turns up at the beginning of the following year in a Rennmax ANF2 car... Des White remarks how well he went for his 'first time out at Lakeside in a new car'... he did a 58.2 there that meeting, which is not to be sneezed at. But he spent a bit of time spinning and I can see no real connection between them.

Just putting this up here for Mr Nye's latest Goodwood blog with BRM content

https://www.goodwood...ed-at-goodwood/

 

Now the question... Doug quotes November 23rd, 1959 for a Goodwood test of the BRM rear-engine prototype, involving that chap Brabham present and testing for the Bourne opposition.

 

Somewhere in my files I have October 23rd for this happening, plucked from BRM Volume 2 p24 / 25ish. BRM Volume 1 has the November date listed around p394 or thereabouts. Which is correct please?

 

Stephen

Sorry chaps, have arrived very late to this party- only 15 years or so!

Just knocking together a few words to go with some wonderful John Ellacott shots of Arnold Glass' P48 '482' in both BRM and Buick V8 engined forms- photos originally uploaded on TNF. Why do photos disappear on this forum- it's the joints only fault as a newbee?

Did Arnold buy the Buick engine AND Colotti 'box from Equipe Reventlow post Sandown '62? Or did he use the P27 BRM transaxle or another tranny when they fitted the V8?

I've a nice shot of the engine but in the Scarab not the BRM - does anybody happen to have a shot of '482' sans bodywork fitted with the bent-eight.

Thanks in anticipation.

Mark

Photos disappear because host sites change rules, cost money or suchlike...

Even photos I uploaded from my own (paid) webspace suffered because of a change of domain name (austarmetro to iimetro to iinet) with the whole lot being lost in the end even though I could reinstate them between the first and second iteration by editing the posts.

We even had free hosting on AtlasF1 for a while, and many relied on that, but that was dropped along the way.

As for the transmission question, as the BRM used a single brake on the back of the BRM box I'm sure that would have been retained.



Edited in because Lindsay's photo in the next post has 'disappeared' in the Postimage fumble:








.

Edited by Ray Bell, 07 May 2018 - 21:31.

Always good to have a photograph to go with the words...

Mark, once upon a time all the photos in the following Brian Darby site link were part of the Mk1 version of the Kevin Drage instigated Oz photos thread. Scroll down to photo 6 and there's the rear gearbox brake visible, but not Scarab V8..

https://aussieroadra...land-1960s.html

 

Frank Matich mentions the short time John McMillan and Glen Abbey took fitting the Scarab V8 to the BRM chassis in his November 1962 SCW feature.

 

Stephen

This is the photo published in the November 1962 SCW Matich column., The text relates to Frank viewing the car at the August 1962 Warwick Farm.

 

 

There's a Scarab engine shot credited to be taken at a Warwick Farm meeting in DCN's BRM Vol 2 page 324 and on the following page, the Ford V8 installation from the car's next format. 

 

IIRC, Bob Williamson posted a colour photo of the BRM Scarab at the Catalina meeting later in August 1962, with the rear body section unpainted.  If it's still viewable, then Oz photos Mk2 is yourbest chance to find it.

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 21 April 2018 - 11:31.

Always good to have a photograph to go with the words...

 

Lovely picture, the BRM looks very good in its red livery and note the MG TF in the background, I wonder how many of those made it to the other side of the world.

TFs were reasonably plentiful in their day...

This is the race, of course, in which 'Carnal' Arnold blundered and caused damage to Jack Brabham's car when ol' Jack was just winding up to beat Bruce McLaren for the Australian Grand Prix.

Thanks Stephen , Ray.
I have 'BRM 2' Stephen and read the chapter on the P48 but not the bit @ the back!, so thanks for that, it's way too long since I read the book(s) cover to cover.
So it seems, that Steele and Allison ran the P27 BRM box with the Ford V8 so I assume Glass did the same with the Buick.
How plucky were those SA youngsters to do what they did? I wonder what they raced before taking on the BRM as both an engineering and driving exercise?
M

Mark, best I can find is the pair previously entered a Studebaker at the Easter 1962 Mallala meeting.

 

Stephen

Wow!
If they came out of taxis that BRM would have an absolute rocket- 350 BHP supercharged?
500 lbs of cast iron behind the shoulders would have made the 'balance' of the thing a little 'how's yer father' I suspect too
M

I must say, I don't recall this abberation at all...

But in 1963 it would surely have been a 272 or 292? In which case, and with supercharger, it would have been closer to 700lbs!

TFs were reasonably plentiful in their day...

This is the race, of course, in which 'Carnal' Arnold blundered and caused damage to Jack Brabham's car when ol' Jack was just winding up to beat Bruce McLaren for the Australian Grand Prix.

ISTR Arnold saying he couldn't see Jack behind him because the carby bulges restricted rear view.

Wow!
If they came out of taxis that BRM would have an absolute rocket- 350 BHP supercharged?
500 lbs of cast iron behind the shoulders would have made the 'balance' of the thing a little 'how's yer father' I suspect too
M

Mark, I've dug a little deeper and found reference in the October 1962 Mallala programme that suggests the Allison/Steele Studebaker probably wasn't a taxi.

 

To quote Pit Patter "John Allison and Jo Steele will have their monstrously powerful 4.7 litre Studebaker special on the track today. Its straight line performance is quite colossal. John, 23 , is an oil company representative while Jo, aged 22, is an engineer."

 

With their entry listed in the Event 3 Division 1 Scratch Race with the likes of Thomson, McKay, Youl, Davison Cooper Climax etc. So you might need to see if Michael Gasking (or other) can turn up a photo of car 48 at that meeting from SCCSA records. 

 

For the BRM-Ford in the October 1964 Mallala programme it is listed with a 4260cc engine - so in Ford speak I assume that's a 260ci. Their entry being in Diivision 2 rather than the big boys of Div 1 Racing cars.- Davison, Stillwell, etc. Where Fraser's name pops up too. So that means the BRM-Ford isn't listed in the Gold Star event either.

 

That same programme has a ripper line in it relating the Fraser Cooper-BRM and Allison/Steele BRM-Ford.running at this meeting. "It is curious that a BRM raced by Sydney driver Arnold Glass has found its way here in two parts; the car with a Ford engine is raced by John Allison and Joe Steele while the engine is now in Fraser's Cooper."

 

The reason for typing Jo Steele v Joe Steele is that I'm just repeating how each programme names him.

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 05 March 2018 - 08:56.

It seems they might have had some means at their disposal, then...

So by October 1964 a 260 might well have been viable. Back to 600lbs.

Great stuff Stephen, whilst all us normal 21 year olds were tootling round in 'Vees thses blokes were building and racing some serious kit- must have had a few shekels in the backyard as Ray says. BRM 2 clarifies my gearbox query- P27 box all the way, it must have been seriously stretched with the Ford V8 tearing away at its gizzards. I wonder if the '482' frame ever became a complete car agin? Interesting story
M

Mark, I can't say I have much on the background of Allison and Steele. There's a possible connection with Don Steele who had previously run an aircooled Cooper in SA events.

 

Hopefully someone out there knows.

 

Stephen

Quoting from Graham Howard's Historically Speaking column in RCN September 1990....

 

On July 8th  John Allison crashed his Rennmax twin-cam at Suttons Corner at Amaroo

in as yet unexplained circumstances and died later of his injuries.John was part of the

founding Diamond Traders family and had great skills as a businessman and artist.

Not only did he restore two Historic open wheelers as part of a lifelong enthusiasm for

cars, he had also built - and flown - his own light aircraft and was respected as a potter,

printmaker and jewellery designer

 

I am assuming this is the man referred to in the above posts

 

Brian Lear

I think the Allison/Steele Studebaker wasn't an open wheeler but was a Lasos bodied sports car

Mark Bisset has added part 2 of his piece on Arnold Glass and the BRM to primotipo on Friday.

https://primotipo.co...brm-p48-part-2/

 

This is how 482 was described for the Brooks Auction at the June 1997 Goodwood FoS. There's a G Hill photo on the other page, but I'm not going to add it here.

 

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 21 April 2018 - 11:33.

Cheers Stephen,
Thanks for putting it up- have just added a few more shots.
Lemme know the cock-ups guys, once they get over 6000 words I get bored towards the end and miss the errors!
Many thanks to Ken Devine for the use of his shots- and John Ellacott's sensational work has largely disappeared from TNF so nice to 'put em out there' for all to enjoy.
Mark

I used to know a gent called Bob Phillips, a sometime butcher from Pontypool in South Wales who was also an RAC scrutiniser at a high level and mate of Waldo Edward and many others in the 60's, 70's and 80's. He told me that he had owned or part owned an early rear engined BRM that was in some sort of legal dispute. Any ideas which one this was and what the legal problem was about?

 

Regards from white Wales

 

Adrian

Nothing about he Scarab engine in that Brooks description...

I would have thought that was the highlight of its career post-works?

As or hitting a tree at Mallala, I am wondering if there is a tree at Mallala!

Over on Bob Williamson's Facebook photos group there's been some conversation going on relating to the Allison/Steele period for the ex Glass BRM. And it might just change the history of this car.

 

Greg Smith states that it was a supercharged Studebaker V8 that went into the car, not Ford V8. He obviously knows John too.

It also adds up when you consider their Studebaker background added to this thread around March 2018 posts.

https://www.facebook...3&theater&ifg=1

 

Stephen

Nothing about he Scarab engine in that Brooks description...

I would have thought that was the highlight of its career post-works?

As or hitting a tree at Mallala, I am wondering if there is a tree at Mallala!

There is or was a few,, but no where near the track. A few on the boundary near Woodies outside of the track, one I think still in the centre and a few behind the control tower though I feel Clem planted those.

As things are in eff one currently the tree in the centre would have to be removed in case they get 1/2 a k off the bitumen! Probably under yellow flags!

A Studebaker Lark V8 could have come in 259 or 289 cubic inches...

So 259 is close to the 4260cc mentioned.

Ray, interesting that the Studebaker V8 fits into the 4260 capacity too.

 

Mark's Primotipo piece (link in post 86) has photos, but it will take someone more familiar with Studebaker and Ford V8's than me, to pick which is which.

 

Stephen

Not Studebaker...

The pic shows four evenly-spaced exhaust pipes on each side, Studebakers had siamesed exhausts for the centre cylinders, so only three pipes each side.

Evenly spaced pipes came on Chrysler Hemis, Polys and... Fords.

I am a little confused. The car with 'Scarab' engine is a 3'9 litre Buick. Though the centre pipes really do not show. Buick is the same as Chev in that the two centre pipes come out together.

The far later pic in Adelaide has it with a 260 Ford. With evenly spaced pipes. 

No Studes to be soon. 

Sidevalve Fords, Studes, some Cadillac V8s all used siamesed centre exhaust.

So you're not actually confused, Lee...

It's clearly not a Studebaker engine.

By now it's beginning to look like Greg might have been thinking the Allison/Steele Studebaker sports car (Lasos as Fred R posted earlier).

 

Stephen

Not Arnold Glass related, but BRM P48. I see in the latest (surface mail) Motor Sport to arrive in Aussie newsagents that there's the ex Gurney Ballarat-winning car offered for sale. Pus one of its slightly younger Bourne siblings..

 

Good enough excuse to pop this Robert Jones photo from the 1961 Ballarat International that appeared on FB last year via Phillip Jones. Number 5 is indeed G Hill's,(Graham amongst those in frame) - with the Gurney car at bottom of screen

 

 

Full attribution to Robert & Phillip Jones

 

Stephen

A pleasant surprise when this wonderful photo from John Ellacott arrived from him this morning. Thank you John for sharing.

 

Taken on the Friday at the January 1961 Warwick Farm International.meeting. The Owen Organisation's lads busy, while Graham's helmet's sitting there awaiting use for a practice run. Great stuff!.

 

Attribution: John Ellacott

 

Stephen

The most distant person in that photo is Dan'l Sexton Gurney...

John has such nice photos.