Non-Champ Mexican GP

The Mexican GP was first run as a WC event in 1963. Was it run as a non-champ event before that. If so, can someone direct me to the results.

I can't seem to put my hands on the full results at the moment - but, it was on November 4, 1962 and is best remembered in sadness as the event at which Ricardo Rodriguez was killed in practice.

The first four finishers were Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Innes Ireland and Jim Hall. Hall had qualified 10th and made a big impression with his result - the following year he did a full season of Grand Prix racing in Europe. Also impressing that weekend was Roger Penske who qualified 5th but didn't finish. That's all I remember off the top of my head but I will look around for more details.

At that time it was an FIA (CSI) rule that any circuit seeking a full Grand Prix with World Championship status, must first host a non-championship race to demonstrate their ability to conduct a World Championship Grand Prix. Hence the non-championship status of the 1962 Mexican Grand prix.

I believe the '76 USGP-West was the first GP to be held that hadn't had a non-championship GP beforehand, but I guess the '75 F5000 race there qualified it. There was also a rule of a GP lasting 200 miles or two hours, whichever came first. When it wasn't (and isn't) adhered to, few seemed to care (publicly at least).

It was the only non-championship race to run there... and I have this to offer:

4 November - Magdalena Mixhuca, Mexico City: 300.239 km (5.004 km x 73 Laps)



Fastest Lap: Jim Clark (Lotus-Climax V8 24), 1:59.7, 93.44mph

Pole Position: Jim Clark, 2:00.1



Results:



1 Trevor Taylor/Jim Clark	   Lotus-Climax V8 24 'R2'		 2h03m50.9, 90.31mph

2 Jack Brabham				  Brabham-Climax BT3 'F1-1-62'	2h04m52.8

3 Innes Ireland				 Lotus-Climax V8 24 '942'		59 laps

4 Jim Hall					  Lotus-Climax 21 '936'		   59 laps

5 Masten Gregory				Lotus-BRM V8 24 '944'		   59 laps

6 Bob Schroeder				 Lotus-Climax V8 24 '940'		57 laps

7 Carel Godin de Beaufort	   Porsche 718

8 Homer Rader				   Lotus 18 Climax

9 Jay Chamberlain			   Lotus 18 Climax



Did Not Finish:

					   

  Walter Hansgen				Lotus 18 Climax				45 

  Roger Penske				  Lotus 24 Climax				39 

  Bruce McLaren				 Cooper T60 Climax			  36 

  Jim Clark					 Lotus-Climax V8 25			 10 

  Alan Connell				  Cooper T53 Climax			   4 

  Wolfgang Seidel			   Lotus 24 BRM					2 

  John Surtees				  Lotus 24 Climax				 1 

  Roy Salvadori				 Lola T4 Climax



Did not start:



  Moises Solana				 Cooper T58 BRM

  Ricardo Rodriguez			 Lotus 24 Climax





Ricardo Rodriguez killed in practice crash driving Lotus 24

Source

Originally posted by Ralliart
I believe the '76 USGP-West was the first GP to be held that hadn't had a non-championship GP beforehand, but I guess the '75 F5000 race there qualified it. There was also a rule of a GP lasting 200 miles or two hours, whichever came first. When it wasn't (and isn't) adhered to, few seemed to care (publicly at least).

You're right, the F5000 race did qualify the circuit for the F1 title race.

Similarly, in 1970 the history of Warwick Farm with seven Tasman Cup races behind it was going to qualify that circuit for the title race that was to be held at the end of the year.

Shame it never came to fruition...

Originally posted by rdrcr

4 November - Magdalena Mixhuca, Mexico City: 300.239 km (5.004 km x 73 Laps)

Fastest Lap: Jim Clark (Lotus-Climax V8 24), 1:59.7, 93.44mph
Pole Position: Jim Clark, 2:00.1

Results:

1 Trevor Taylor/Jim Clark Lotus-Climax V8 24 'R2' 2h03m50.9, 90.31mph

It's puzzling as to how the 73 got in there - the race distance and finishing time suggest 60 laps.

In the following years, Mexico was raced as 325km/65 laps.

A bit more detail: grid and practice times available too, if required.

4 November - Magdalena Mixhuca, Mexico City: 300.239 km (5.004 km x 60 Laps)



Fastest Lap: Jim Clark (Lotus-Climax V8 24), 1:59.7, 93.44mph

Pole Position: Jim Clark, 2:00.1



Results:



1 29 Trevor Taylor/Jim Clark	   Lotus-Climax V8 24 'R2'		 2h03m50.9, 90.31mph

2 17 Jack Brabham				  Brabham-Climax BT3 'F1-1-62'	2h04m52.8

3 15 Innes Ireland				 Lotus-Climax V8 24 '942'		59 laps

4 25 Jim Hall					  Lotus-Climax 21 '936'		   59 laps

5 16 Masten Gregory				Lotus-BRM V8 24 '944'		   59 laps

6 77 Bob Schroeder				 Lotus-Climax V8 24 '940'		57 laps

7 4  Carel Godin de Beaufort	   Porsche 718					57 laps

8 24 Homer Rader				   Lotus 18/21 Climax			  57 laps

9 52 Jay Chamberlain			   Lotus 18 Climax				  53 laps



Did Not Finish:

					   

  60 Walter Hansgen				Lotus 18 Climax				45 Ignition

  14 Roger Penske				  Lotus 24 Climax				39 Gearbox

  21 Bruce McLaren				 Cooper T60 Climax			  36 Seized engine

  8  Jim Clark					 Lotus-Climax V8 25			 10 DQ - push start

  9  Roy Salvadori				 Lola T4 Climax				  9  Accident (rear suspension)

  5  Alan Connell				  Cooper T53 Climax			   4 Engine

  2  Wolfgang Seidel			   Lotus 24 BRM					2 Gearbox

  19 John Surtees				  Lotus 24 Climax				 1 Ignition



Did not start:



  9  Moises Solana				 Cooper T58 BRM				 Withdrew - car not quick enough

  7  Ricardo Rodriguez			 Lotus 24 Climax				Fatal accident in practice



Did not arrive(?) :



  10 Dan Gurney					 Porsche 804

  11 Jo Bonnier					   Porsche 804

I believe the '76 USGP-West was the first GP to be held that hadn't had a non-championship GP beforehand, but I guess the '75 F5000 race there qualified it. There was also a rule of a GP lasting 200 miles or two hours, whichever came first. When it wasn't (and isn't) adhered to, few seemed to care (publicly at least).

I once read that the 1959 US Grand Prix was exempted as the CSI felt confident that the organisers of the Sebring 12 hours were capable of organising a Grand Prix. I don't know if Tony Brooks would agree, given the Harry Schell magic qualifying lap and it's knock on effect!

The rule was certainly around at that time as the 1957 Morocco GP qualified them to run a championship race in 1958.

Whoops! I've just remembered the 1957 Pescara GP. The reasoning must have been the same as Sebring

Pescara was more a case of force majeure - because the Dutch, Belgian and Spanish races had been cancelled at fairly short notice, the FIA had to find a seventh race for the championship. IIRC the rules stated that here had to be at least seven events, otherwise the championship was null and void. In the wake of Le Mans 1955, a lot of minor races had disappeared and Pescara was the only remaining major event before Monza, the "traditional" season end (Yes, I know about Spain in 1951 and 1954!)

The only other possibles were Modena and Silverstone which were heat/final format and Morocco, which was untried ....

Pescara, in the context of 1957, had a pretty substantial history anyway.

And a circuit to die for... or on... or... well, you know what I mean.

Did not start:

9 Moises Solana Cooper T58 BRM Withdrew - car not quick enough

That´s odd. I´ve always thought that Moises did not star the race as a homage to Ricardo´s untimely death.

carlos

rdrcr and Vitesse both posted that the winning car was a Lotus 24. Surely it was a 25?

Full report here - it says Taylor's car (which Clark "inherited" in the last "shared" GP victory) was a 25-R2:- http://8w.forix.com/mex62.html

Originally posted by Roger Clark
rdrcr and Vitesse both posted that the winning car was a Lotus 24. Surely it was a 25?

Of course it was... how could I have missed that?

They have the right chassis number though!

Originally posted by Roger Clark
rdrcr and Vitesse both posted that the winning car was a Lotus 24. Surely it was a 25?

Serves us both right for not double-checking Quintin's data .....

But as Ray says, it's the right chassis number!

Carlos: according to the brief report in Formula One Record Book, Solana "chose to adopt a prima donna attitude", claiming the car was too slow. There is one other discrepancy - the text says the car was a Cooper-Climax, the stats say Cooper-BRM. I think the latter is less likely, as it was the works prototype for the Climax V8 which Brabham ran in late 1961. Not sure of their source for all this, but implicit in the text is that it's a non-European report - Road & Track perhaps?

See http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=31278.

The magazine Allen refers to is probably Motor Racing.

According to the Motoring News report of the race Solana (Cooper-BRM V8), Bowmaker entry, withdrew car prior to race owing to a lack of power.

He had qualified 13th on 2m 09.07s. There were five cars slower than he was. Clark's pole time was 2m 00.08s.

As requested: times only to the nearest tenth though.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
As requested: times only to the nearest tenth though.

One has to have a certain scepticism about the validity of those times - the odds against getting twelve times ending in ".1", five in ".0" with no other ending in sight must be millions to one!

Originally posted by Geoff E


One has to have a certain scepticism about the validity of those times - the odds against getting twelve times ending in ".1", five in ".0" with no other ending in sight must be millions to one!

Hmm, yes. Looking at the two times Milan posted I wonder if an extra zero might have inserted itself throughout? As Watkins Glen was still only apparently issuing times to the nearest tenth, would Mexico City have been giving them to the hundredth?

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Hmm, yes. Looking at the two times Milan posted I wonder if an extra zero might have inserted itself throughout? As Watkins Glen was still only apparently issuing times to the nearest tenth, would Mexico City have been giving them to the hundredth?

Good point - yes, someone putting in an extra zero (with no good reason), then someone else rounding off to 1 decimal place would give the sort of times which you posted - I think you've answered that one.

In 1962, GP qualifying times were given to the nearest tenth - apart from in Britain, where the existence of "odd" decimal fractions was not acknowledged until 1964 (at Brands) and 1965 at Silverstone.

Although timing to the nearest 0.2 sec in 1950 and 51, from 1952-1954 and in 1956 Silverstone appeared to time to the nearest whole second. More remarkably, the only two drivers credited with finishing times in 1953 may have been timed only to the nearest minute (or it could have been another of those coincidences) as their times were 2h50m00s and 2h51m00s!

The report in Motor Racing doesn't contain a full list of practice times, but the one it quotes support Vitesse's theory: eg Clark's pole time was 2min 0.8s, Solana did 2m 9.7s, Surtees 2min 2.8.

From "Car & Driver" February 1963 :

Bowmaker also had a 1961 Cooper works machine, fitted with a BRM V-8, which was driven by the Mexican F. Junior champion, Moises Solana. When the BRM wouldn't be tuned to 7,500-foot altitude Solana sulked, offered $15,000 for Roy Salvadori's Lola, then withdrew.

Note: Ricardo had race #1 (not 7) as can be seen on probably one of his last pictures......

Just for interest, Team Lotus logged their participation in this 1962 Mexican GP as follows:

CAR 25-R2

2-11-62 - V8 499.7 - 7 - TAYLOR - 5.00 D12 (front tyres) 32psi - 7.00 D12 (rear tyres) 32psi - 9.37:1 final drive - "Dry. One tyre replaced due toe in".

4-11-62 - RACE - V8 499.7 - TAYLOR/CLARK - tyre pressures 34 front, 32 rear 6.50 D12 - "Clark took over to finish race 1st"

THIS IS THE CAR WHICH HAD (thanks Bertocchi!) RUN AT INDY ON OCTOBER 10-11, 1962 - SAME ENGINE BUT WITH FINAL-DRIVE RATIO RAISED TO 9.35:1. (incidentally Indy tyre pressures are recorded as LF 38 - RF 44 - LR 40 - RR 46...then changed to LF 34 - RF 44 - LR 36 - RR 46).

CAR 25-R3

2-11-62 - V8 499.8 - 3 - CLARK - 5.00 D12 (front tyres) 30psi - 6.50 D12 (rear tyres) 32psi - 9.37:1 final drive - "8,700rpm".

4-11-62 - RACE - V8 499.8 - CLARK - tyre pressures 32 front, 34 rear - "Starter would not operate on grid - black flagged - Rtd".

DCN

This is the full list of qualifying times from Motoring News.

Clark - 2m 00.08s
Ireland - 2m 01.07s
Taylor - 2m 02.00s
Surtees - 2m 02.08s
McLaren 2m 02.08s
Penske - 2m 03.00s
Brabham - 2m 03.01s
Salvadori - 2m 04.06s
Gregory - 2m 06.08s
Hall - 2m 06.08s
Schroeder - 2m 07.00s
de Beaufort - 2m 07.04s
Solana - 2m 09.07s
Hansgen - 2m 12.02s
Rader - 2m 12.07s
Connell - 2m 16.06s
Chamberlain - 2m 21.06s
Seidel - 2m 23.04s

Very strange - there is no time that ends greater than .08s

Clark's fastest race lap is given as 1m 59.7s

Originally posted by Milan Fistonic
This is the full list of qualifying times from Motoring News.

Clark - 2m 00.08s
Ireland - 2m 01.07s
Taylor - 2m 02.00s
Surtees - 2m 02.08s
McLaren 2m 02.08s
Penske - 2m 03.00s
Brabham - 2m 03.01s
Salvadori - 2m 04.06s
Gregory - 2m 06.08s
Hall - 2m 06.08s
Schroeder - 2m 07.00s
de Beaufort - 2m 07.04s
Solana - 2m 09.07s
Hansgen - 2m 12.02s
Rader - 2m 12.07s
Connell - 2m 16.06s
Chamberlain - 2m 21.06s
Seidel - 2m 23.04s

Very strange - there is no time that ends greater than .08s

Yes, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there appears to be an extra zero after the decimal point. Without the zeroes there is correspondence with the times that Roger Clark gives.

Here are the times as they appeared in the February 1963 issue of Car and Driver:

Clark, Lotus 25 - 2m 00.8s
Taylor, Lotus 25 - 2m 01.7s
Surtees, Bowmaker Lotus 24 - 2m 02.0s
McLaren, Cooper - 2m 02.8s
Penske, Lotus 24 2m 02.8s
Brabham, Brabham - 2m 03.0s
Ireland, Lotus 24 - 2m 03.1s
Salvadori, Lola - 2m 04.6s
Schroeder, Lotus 24 - 2m 06.8s
Gregory, Lotus 24 - 2m 06.0s
Hall, Lotus 24 - 2m 07.0s
de Beaufort, Porsche - 2m 07.4s
(Solana, Cooper - 2m 09.7s)
Hansgen, Lotus 18 - 2m 12.2s
Rader, Lotus 18 - 2m 12.7s
Connell, Cooper - 2m 16.6s
Chamberlain, Lotus 18 - 2m 21.6s
Seidel, Lotus - 2m 23.4s

Fastest Lap: Jim Clark (Lotus-Climax V8 25), 1:59.7, 93.23mph

Did not start:
1 Ricardo Rodriguez Lotus 24 Climax Fatal accident in practice

I'm somewhat bothered by the mention of a BRM V8-engined Cooper for Solana in Mexico as mentioned in this thread, since it impinges on two areas in which I have a rather special interest, and it rings bells which are saying "you WERE going to check this, and have never got round to it...".

Does anyone have a published photo reference to this car?

A Climax engine is more likely to have featured, but if it WAS a BRM V8-powered car, John Surtees had bought a BRM V8 engine from Bourne with the specific request that the deal should be kept confidential - i.e. that Bowmaker, Lola and Climax should not know about it, until he was ready to tell them. This engine performed brief works BRM team service then seems to have gone to Rob Walker, and from him - unused - to 'Yeoman Credit' as early as May 1962, subsequently fetching up with Tim Parnell for 1963.

Another conundrum...

DCN

Well there is a possible Surtees connection, as the F1 Record Book says he also practised in Solana's car, but gives no time. So far I've seen nothing which says it was DEFINITELY the T58 - Car and Driver only says it was a 1961 works car, which could mean a T55. From the text in F1RB, it would appear that Motoring News was the only European journal to report the race. Is the T58 attribution there Milan? And/or in Car and Driver? And which of those (if either) mentions Surtees?

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I'm somewhat bothered by the mention of a BRM V8-engined Cooper for Solana in Mexico as mentioned in this thread, since it impinges on two areas in which I have a rather special interest, and it rings bells which are saying "you WERE going to check this, and have never got round to it...".

Does anyone have a published photo reference to this car?

A Climax engine is more likely to have featured, but if it WAS a BRM V8-powered car, John Surtees had bought a BRM V8 engine from Bourne with the specific request that the deal should be kept confidential - i.e. that Bowmaker, Lola and Climax should not know about it, until he was ready to tell them. This engine performed brief works BRM team service then seems to have gone to Rob Walker, and from him - unused - to 'Yeoman Credit' as early as May 1962, subsequently fetching up with Tim Parnell for 1963.

Another conundrum...

DCN

Doug,

I don't have a picture of this car but a Road & Track article stated the following:

"Bowmaker's 1961 works Cooper, with a BRM V-8 engine, was to have been driven by Moises Solana, the usual winner of Mexican Formula Junior events, but by Saturday Solana was claiming that the Cooper would not turn the 10,000 rpm promised in England, and, after abortive, much publicized attempt to beg, borrow or lend-lease Salvadori's Lola for the race, Solana withdrew into his serape on Sunday for an unsportsmanlike brood."

Car and Driver reported a similar story:

"Bowmaker also had a 1961 Cooper works machine, fitted with a BRM V-8, which was driven by the Mexican F-Jr champion, Moises Solana. When the BRM wouldn't be tuned to 7,500-foot altitude Solana sulked, offered $15,000 for Roy's Lola, then withdrew."

There is a seven-second disparity between McLaren's Climax-powered Cooper and Solana's BRM-powered Cooper in qualifying. A three and a half to five-second gap (depending upon the source) in qualifying between Innes Ireland's Climax-powered Lotus 24 and Masten's BRM-powered Lotus 24. Solana had to have known the track better than McLaren, so I would bet it was a BRM engine since there is such a large disparity in their times. Poor Masten got stuck once again with a BRM in his UDT-Laystall Lotus 24 for this race which I read that the UDT team were having problems getting enough Climax engines that season, so more than likely Bowmaker did too.

Quite an incredible revelation there, Doug...

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....John Surtees had bought a BRM V8 engine from Bourne with the specific request that the deal should be kept confidential - i.e. that Bowmaker, Lola and Climax should not know about it, until he was ready to tell them.....DCN

So FJ was playing ducks and drakes for some reason, hedging his bets?

Now why would this be? So he could give Climax the flick if the BRM was better during his time with Lola? So he could have his own direct comparison?

Has he ever told you his reasons?

Whatever, it seems to have come to nought. Presumably you're saying this was Ginther's engine in the first part of the '62 season, or perhaps was used at Brussells? That the arrangement was to give FJ access to an engine should they turn out to be markedly superior and thus later become harder to buy?

And so what happened to the engine after Mexico?

The reference to 10,000 rpm should be enough to indicate Solana had the BRM engine.

Still nothing that says it was the T58 though .... just a "1961 works Cooper"/"1961 Cooper works machine". And what were Bowmaker doing with a Cooper anyway?

Motoring News was not the only only European journal to report the race; Motor Racing did too. The report states that Solana said that the car would give him no chance of winning, and a note from the editor says: "The Cooper-BRM didn't seem to be going too badly when Surtees tested it at Brands shortly before it was shipped out".

The previous month's "Pit Patter" column says "Bowmaker have rebuilt the ex-Brabham V8 Cooper with a BRM carburettor V8 for Mexican SJ champion Moises Solana"

The Formula One Record Book (John Thompson) states Moises Solana drove a Cooper 58, chassis no FI-12-61 with a BRM V-8 engine. The same car was also practiced by John Surtees.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Still nothing that says it was the T58 though .... just a "1961 works Cooper"/"1961 Cooper works machine". And what were Bowmaker doing with a Cooper anyway?

Previously mentioned in the thread, I believe...

No mention in the Motoring News report of what type of Cooper Solana was driving.

The start was hilarious.

Firstly Clark's Lotus wouldn't start when the order was given to fire up the cars. The rest of the grid was made to wait, engines running, while the Lotus lads fitted a new battery. Unfortunately the new battery didn't help and the Lotus had to be push started. That led to Clark being black-flagged and him taking over Taylor's car.

Before the flag dropped Surtees had to be pushed from the grid, his engine stuffed after the prolonged wait for Clark's car to be readied.

Then an oil fire started in Hansgen's Lotus-Climax and he was pushed away.

Finally one of the three starters dropped the flag, unaware or indifferent to the fact that one of his compatriots was standing on Clark's front wheel making incomprehensible signals at the field.

As the flag dropped Clark let out the clutch and the assistant starter danced right across the nose of the Lotus, hurdled the wheel, and found himself face to face with 15 snarling machines. Somehow, the assistant, displaying even more agility than during his the previous performance on the tyre, managed to reach the side of the track without being mangled.

Then the three starters stood toe-to-toe and screamed at each other until the returning cars drowned out the noise.

This was a trial run for a WDC race, right?

And they still got to run one the next year...

No wonder dogs and spectators finished up on the circuit at times.

Milan, who wrote the MN report?

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Milan, who wrote the MN report?

Most Motoring News reports just have the author's initials but in this case there is a full name - Jack Brady.

Thanks. I don't think I've ever heard of Jack Brady. Can anyone tell me more?

Sounds like a nom de plume for someone who regularly writes for another publication...

Check for similar facts in other stories... I mean more than just the facts about the start, but other facts, though the start will be a highlight.

Did HNMIII's report focus on these things? What about C&D's report or SCG's... they're more likely to produce your culprit.

Thanks for input on the Cooper-BRM. Since it was reported in period by people of the calibre of John Blunsden, Alan Brinton and Dr Frank Falkner (all 'Motor Racing' magazine as quoted by Roger), I'm perfectly happy that the car/engine combination did in fact exist and was presented for Solana to run in Mexico. No offence but I would not accept the cited American reports at face value unless confident their correspondents were able to tell the difference betwen Climax and BRM V8 engines. 'The Motor's brief report merely mentions that 'Bowmaker were in trouble with carburetion all weekend"...the inference being "on all of their cars".

Joe's line "Poor Masten got stuck once again with a BRM in his UDT-Laystall Lotus 24 for this race..." strikes an odd note since this apparently woefully inferior mechanical combination had already been good enough to win in Formula 1 that season at Crystal Palace (Innes Ireland steering), and at Karlskoga where Masten himself had scored his rare victory in the premier class?

DCN

PS - For those keen on such things the BRM engine used by Bowmaker should have been '5607'.

Doug...

Since the cam covers alone were enough to distinguish one engine from another, and they were dramatically different, why would you doubt an American reporter?

Then Nevill Chamberlain said...

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Then Nevill Chamberlain said...

Excellent, Dave! But how many will understand it?

Just to cloud the waters a bit more I found this, captioned "Cooper-Maserati IGP Mexico 1962"



from this site:- http://www.jsolana.com.mx/moises/

However, this one says "Cooper BRM IGP de Mexico 1966"



I would suggest that the dates are correct but the car types have been transposed.

Geoff - that's a great find, thank you!

DCN

And if you go a looooong way down that page, you'll find the same pictures again, but this time correctly captioned.

Originally posted by Vitesse2




Excellent, Dave! But how many will understand it?

Well, not me for one. Is it a reference to a far away land of which we know nothing?