Ferrari 330 P4

If someone commissions somebody else to cast new P4 engines and gearboxes and then builds a car or cars around them.............I think that would be called a reproduction. That question has been raised before about Cameron Millar's Maserati 250Fs.

You would be surprised to find out that complete engines, gearboxes and even complete cars have been carefully crafted when money is there and the old remains are too far gone (as I myself witnessed with utter amazement while visiting a very famous British restoration company), and little if any remain from the original P2/P3's, some of them with now P4 bodies out there. It's often a question of the "Old Number 1", or the story of the axe's handle and blade.
Money defines what these cars now look like. Thing is, one can demolish the tall stories just with the proper and older photo documentation.

Also you should know that a GT40, even a Le Mans winner, will NEVER be as valuable as even a loser Ferrari, because, as a very famous appraiser told me once, "it is not red". How does one argue with that?
Regards,

T54

Originally posted by mickj
Lanciaman
The Causey's must have made 2. Checkout www.motorsportboerse.de There is a Causey P3 for sale.

The driver shown must be enormous or has had the seat raised considerably, as his head rises far above the windscreen! Dean Causey was a fairly small man and appeared much more proportional to his B/SR car. The Causey P3 shown here looks- grotesquely small, almost like a toy car.

The driver shown must be enormous or has had the seat raised considerably, as his head rises far above the windscreen! Dean Causey was a fairly small man and appeared much more proportional to his B/SR car. The Causey P3 shown here looks- grotesquely small, almost like a toy car.

Causey built the car 3/4 scale of the real thing. But he also missed the "look" completely. he did it because he liked the real car, but this one looks especially bad. The one shown in Victory Lane magazine looked a lot better, and more like the original.

T54

Originally posted by T54


Causey built the car 3/4 scale of the real thing. But he also missed the "look" completely. he did it because he liked the real car, but this one looks especially bad. The one shown in Victory Lane magazine looked a lot better, and more like the original.

T54

Yes. I saw the original Causey being built, though I don't know how they scaled it down. I took photos of the car's first outing when it was gridded 3rd at IRP behind Dave Causey's McLaren and Jack Ensley's Lola T70, and the Causey looked right at home- not diminutive, but right in scale. I think this was 1969. It was a great looking race car.

Lost Cause(y)s

Originally posted by T54
Causey built the car 3/4 scale of the real thing .... The one shown in Victory Lane magazine looked a lot better, and more like the original.

Originally posted by lanciaman
I saw the original Causey being built, though I don't know how they scaled it down.

Lanciaman / T54.
This is a ‘cut and paste’ of a posting that I made on FerrariChat (in reply to a question from ‘Macca’), about 3 weeks ago:

Originally posted by P4Replica (on FerrariChat 30/6/2004).

The car you are referring to is the Causey owned by Mike Kaske. Although it appears very similar to a Causey P3, Mike calls it a "1965 Causey P-6 Special". The car races regulary at ‘Vintage’ races across the U.S. Mid-West.
There are a couple of photos of it posted on the author Burt Levy’s website. Burt sometimes co-drove the car with Mike in ‘Enduro’ races, such as here at Road America in 1999. See:

http://www.lastopenr...com/photos3.htm or http://www.lastopenr...com/bs99-01.htm and
http://www.lastopenr...com/photos7.htm or http://www.lastopenr...com/bric011.htm

The most recent race results I could find for the car are:
http://www.toadhallr...dAmerica_G7.htm (Did not start) and
http://www.svra.com/...and_Enduro.html

I came across the Causey P3’s purely by accident, and had no initial intention of including them in my register, as I personally wouldn’t really class them as P4 replicas – but, then again, there are some obvious similarities in the bodywork. My first contact with them came at the end of 2002, when an ex-Causey owner emailed me through the club website, seeking to locate a P4 replica ‘project car’. His own Causey P3 (three were built in total) was powered by a “Brian Hart 4 cylinder motor, with a Hewland box”. This car was apparently street driven in the Warren, OH area for a while.

I had a brief session of emails with Mike Kaske back in January of this year, although his email server and AOL’s servers didn’t seem to like ‘talking’ very much, and several emails got lost ‘en route’. This one got through luckily:

“Hello Paul,
Glad the msg got thru. A little about the history first; The first chassis were built in 65', but the bodywork wasn't completed until 66'. Actually what the Causeys' did was photograph Pedro Rodriguez's car with a perspective control camera and then went back to Indiana and scaled it to fit over the allowable wheelbase and track that SCCA allowed for B sports racers. Of the 3 cars, 2 were Ford powered units, and the 3rd (mine) was Porsche.
The Causey brother's Dad owned Cline Porsche NW in Indianapolis at the time and they were racing 356s. When they decided to build these cars, mine was originally going to have the Carrera motor. By the time it was ready to put it all together in early 66', they decided on the 901 2 litre that just came out from Porsche. What we run in the car is that motor, except it's a 906H configuration. With the car only weighing 1200 #s, it's pretty quick. We use a Hewland box. The original had a Porsche box but it was too troublesome and we wanted more flexibility in gear changes.
These weren't kits. Causey built them but was really only interested in the Porsche Unit. Buddies from his shop built up the other two cars.
As for the whereabouts of the cars, your contact has one of the Ford cars. It has been street driven for a while and the pics I saw of it show heavy modifications to the bodywork. The other one is here in Wisconsin and I have provided a complete set of bodywork to him. (I forgot to mention we got the molds with our car when we found it) He may have it restored in a few years.
I have little knowledge about some of the P4 kit makers. I've seen a few. I guess you could say this is a P4 replica in the fact of using Rodriguez's car as the design pattern. I don't really think of it that way. I'm just a racer guy who loves this little machine and drive the wheels off of it every time I can !!
regards,
Mike”

Note the interesting dates quoted – the Causey brothers must have had amazing ‘foresight’ –
It’s obviously something to do with the homologation of this ‘Special’.

By the way, the ex-owner of that Brian Hart powered Causey P3 sent me some photos, including a straight rear end-on shot. Interestingly, from this angle, the car looks far more like a 512S than either a 206S or a P3 or P4 ….

Originally posted by mickj
The Causey's must have made 2. Checkout www.motorsportboerse.de There is a Causey P3 for sale.

THIS LINK takes you straight to the Causey P3 page.
So it looks like the Causey brothers may possibly have made 4 of their 'P3's.
A German friend of mine is tracking down the owner of this car at the moment …

Originally posted by T54
Money defines what these cars now look like. Thing is, one can demolish the tall stories just with the proper and older photo documentation.

It's a lot simpler than that - Apparently, all that it takes to establish the true origins (and content) of this car is just a phone call to David Piper. See this FerrariChat thread, pages 5 and 6;)

Originally posted by Macca
... I don't think it could be called a replica. The term 'younger sister' has been used for David Piper's car.

Then perhaps the term 'born out of wedlock' should be used for this one!

Originally posted by MKIVJ6
when you have not personally examined the forensic evidence that show's that it very well may be and are aware that a claim has been made that it does and that Ferrari S.P.A is aware of this evidence and is in the process of futher investigating this evidence as you have been told several times prior to your making the above statement continues to show a reckless disregard for the truth.

The 'truth' Jim ? And what 'forensic evidence' ? Despite all the dozens of posts on 'FerrariChat', claiming unequivocally that your car IS #0846, no-one (on Ferrarichat), to the best of my knowledge, has been privileged to see any such evidence to substantiate your claims, nor the supporting documentation.

I would be very careful, if I were you Jim, as to the claims that you make for your undeniably beautiful 'Ferrari 330P4 reproduction' on THIS forum. It does not (as does FerrariChat) appear to be populated by 'Yes Men', and would-be lawyers. Having read a good number of threads now, Atlas F1 would appear (to me) to have many knowledgeable contributors, including the well-known and respected Ferrari historian Doug Nye.
One wouldn't want to leave themselves open to ridicule in such revered company, would one ?;)

P.S. F.A.O. Don Capps - I have no wish to turn this thread into a 'flame war' (as has happened many times before, when the subject of '#0846' was broached on FerrariChat). I felt that I needed to respond to Jim's post. If you do deem that this reply is 'inflammatory', it was not intended to be, please accept my sincere apologies.

Originally posted by P4Replica
Lost Cause(y)s
Lanciaman / T54.
This is a ‘cut and paste’ of a posting that I made on FerrariChat (in reply to a question from ‘Macca’), about 3 weeks ago:

Thanks for details about the Causey. Memory didn't serve too well- though I didn't think the car raced until '68 or '69. I don't think Causeys had a familial relationship with Porsche dealer Dick Kline and to my knowledge did not race Porsches unless very early on. They were known for racing some exotic machinery in the early 60s including a Birdcage. Dave Causey campaigned a Lola in CanAm for a number of years and had one burn to the waterline at, I think, MidOhio. Their shop wasn't anything like the well-lit, polished, highly-equipped sort of places that are typical nowadays, and was located at the family farm outside Indy. IIRC they were heirs of Charles Fairbanks, VP under Teddy Roosevelt and the Fairbanks Broadcasting fortune, and bless them, they invested in race cars. I don't think they ever had sponsorships. Dean is gone but Dave was still around as of a few years ago, living near Indianapolis.

Originally posted by lanciaman
Thanks for details about the Causey. Memory didn't serve too well- though I didn't think the car raced until '68 or '69. I don't think Causeys had a familial relationship with Porsche dealer Dick Kline and to my knowledge did not race Porsches unless very early on.

Those dates (of '65 and '66) quoted in the prior posting, were from Mike Kaske's email ("in quotes") ....

Replica Paul
Once again you are wrong. Many posters on FCHAT as well as posters on this forum have seen and in some instances been involved in the gathering of this evidence. In addition Ferrari S.P.A , FCA, the person writing an article about my car for the Pebble Issue of Vintage MotorSports, and the people writing articles for at least two other MotorSports Magazines are in possession of this evidence as well. Many of these people have physically inspected this evidence and have publically posted that they have and what they felt this evidence proved in FCHAT. Your statement that you are "unaware" of this is IMO laughable. Your continuing reckless disregard for the truth is noted and will be dealt with. Your threats are also noted.

Originally posted by MKIVJ6
Your continuing reckless disregard for the truth is noted and will be dealt with. Your threats are also noted.

My threats, Jim ?

:

I generally trot these icons out when I see the handbags getting polished, the razor blades in the toes of the high heels being sharpened, and the seconds quibbling over when is it dawn if it is overcast.....

Guys, to be honest I really give a flying wet **** as to whether it is a replica, fake, reproduction, or the genuine article sitting in someone's driveway. After a car or racing machine leaves the track and vanishes into the murky world of Old Racing Cars For Sale, I have learned to rarely get too much involved -- or even involved at all when Big Money seems to hang on each utterance.

Having long ago learned a hard lesson that the concept of "Truth" as it is applied to this field of endeavor is very flexible, I simply have a tendency to marvel at the lunacy of all this. Money makes what a should be a fairly rational discussion over history turn into a bargaining session over provenance.

However, it is pretty much an accepted hazard of having old racing cars around. Therefore, I generally step aside and make a determined effort to stay out of the path of the razor blades and handbags.

Actually, as some of us of the great unwashed figured out long ago, the identities of some machines that take the track are much like that of the Unknown Soldiers, known but to God.....

Just my lowly, uninformed, unsolicited opinion....

....Don, let's just sit back and enjoy the entertainment....

DCN

Originally posted by Doug Nye
....Don, let's just sit back and enjoy the entertainment....

DCN

....which I plan on doing at a safe distance.

Since things are a bit boring at the office during the slow season, I for one, am enjoying the scenery just fine from me side of the Atlantic...

Originally posted by P4Replica
THIS LINK takes you straight to the Causey P3 page.
So it looks like the Causey brothers may possibly have made 4 of their 'P3's.
A German friend of mine is tracking down the owner of this car at the moment …

I've recieved a reply from my German friend. The car's owner is, in fact, the person advertising it for sale on the website:

"I contacted Helmut Reuscher via email last night and talked to him today on the phone. He is a very friendly guy in his sixties with some background in vintage racing. He bought the (Causey) P3 in 1983 and restored it over a couple of years. He raced it in several historic events until 1990. Today he is showing the car at events and vintage car meets every now and then. Helmut lives near Düsseldorf (Meerbusch - not too far away from me), but the car is somewhere in Holland at the moment."

The car is currently fitted with a 1600cc Lotus Twin-Cam and a Hewland gearbox.

One interesting common factor in these affairs - which resurfaces time and time again - is the perhaps subconscious conviction of enthusiastic newcomers that nobody will still be around with the recall, or the hands-on experience, from 15, 20, 30 or 35 or more years ago occasionally to question claims they might make - or misrepresent - regarding genuine or fabricated, misleading or fraudulent, historic car identities...

Some such enthusiastic newbies don't appreciate quite how contemporary photographic and documentary evidence might have been accumulated over a long, long period which could yet prove or disprove some of their wilder schemes.

Perfectly genuine components might well check out for age, without anything other than long hidden photographic evidence to indicate precisely what car they might have been built into on any particular weekend, in any particular FIA Formula, or FIA regulation Group....come to think of it.

And there's always the possibility that some of this evidence, recalled, documentary, photographic... might at any time resurface, after lying half - but not entirely - forgotten...

DCN

How true. The first installment that is now before S.P.A. and others includes, among other things over 104 pages of just those things. I remember going through the same research with another car I own. The first edition of David Hodges "The Ford GT 40" stated:
J5
Ford Division/A.J.Foyt/H. Lindley. The yellow car at LeMans where it finished fourth...

J6 Ford Division/Ford Museum.
1967 Le Mans winner.

I also remember the research I did and presented to David and the Henry Ford Museum. That research contained much of what you spoke of as well.

The latest edition of David's "Ford GT40" is somewhat different.

J5 Ford Division/Henry Ford Museum. 1967 Le Mans winner.

J6 Ford Division/ A J Foyt/ L Lindley/ P Lavonas/ J Glickenhaus. A car that has caused much confusion, since it was repainted as clone of 1967 Le Mans winner (it was actually fourth in that race). James Glickenhaus restored it in correct colurs, and has covered thousands of miles in it on public roads.

David, Ronnie Spain, The Curator of the Henry Ford Museum and many other's who I wouldn't really consider "Newbies" had it wrong but that is often the case when people don't physically inspect things and do the kind of research you described.

BTW if you'd like to take a look at the 104+ pages I spoke of feel free to send me your postal address.

Hmmmm..... For reasons unknown and from sources long forgotten, I have a note in one of my folders that simply says, "1967 L/M winner = J5 & not J6" and to the side several "???" There are also notes about various other cars and chassis and so forth, mostly for 1984 CART and GP cars.

It is simply a short note among others on a blue 3x5 card in pencil. No references or other reasons as to why this would be. It is in a folder that has a bunch of other notes from 1984 events and "stuff" related to that year -- CART, NASCAR, IMSA, and so forth. I have absolutely zero clues as to what the circumstances were behind it.

I have also, obviously, always thought it to be an error -- because there is no correction or notation in my Ronnie Spain book or or any of my other related books.

I wonder where I read that or who said something to me? I have no idea.

I thought of the card since I saw it only a few weeks ago as I was looking at some material for a possible article on something to do with the 1984 season.

Well, a tip of the hat is certainly warranted for tracking that down and correcting it.

Originally posted by MKIVJ6

BTW if you'd like to take a look at the 104+ pages I spoke of feel free to send me your postal address.

A most kind offer, thank you. Address on PM to you. Knowing the UK postal system this may take some time...

DCN

Don
J5/J6 error began in 67 at Le Mans. In the original scrutinising/application the drivers were listed incorrectly. As everyone knew that Gurney/Foyt were the winning drivers they assumed the chassis they were listed as driving was the car that won. Another problem was that soon after the race J5's chassis plate was stolen, as was it's steering wheel, and it's original engine was removed, dyno tested and lost as well. It's original radiator is also missing and that's why among other reasons that it has a label "Don't Start" on it's dash. After Le Mans J5, J6, J7, J8 went back to H&M. Ford had H&M "prepare the Le Mans winner for the Show circuit." They looked at the Le Mans records saw J6 was the winner and repainted it red. A clue to their mistake is the official studio shot. On the sill FORD is white. At Le Mans it was black. They also cobbled together the Andretti J7 wreck and painted it red as well. They sent "The Le Mans Winner" to various shows. If you look at the New York Auto Show photo you'll notice the H&M side windows (J7&J8) which are of course wrong as the winner J5 and J6 had Shelby side windows.
The error was compounded by Ford when they gave Foyt, their man of the year, "The Le Mans Winner J6" Foyt didn't help by adding later "Of course I have the winner I know the car I drove."
J6 still has it's chassis plate and original engine. (Shipping/Customs docs.) When I met Peter it was still painted as the winner. Even though the records and all of the GT40 books thought J6 was the winner I didn't. It just didn't seem credible that the car in the museum wasn't the winner because of the crack on the nose where I remember the fan with the large bottle of Champagne riding. The car in the Museum was examined and the place where the tub had been crushed, under the seat, to give Dan a few more inches plus the crack in the nose, plus a section of strengthening rope along the outer edge of the tail that is not on J6 convinced me that J6 was not the winner but the Donohue/McLaren fourth place finisher which was fine with me.
Peter and other's have commented that I'm the only person they know who owns a car that the records and books showed won Le Mans, said it ain't so and restored it to it's proper condition.

In light of the above I can assure you that my coming to believe that the P 3/4 I also own contains substantial parts of the chassis remains of 0846, the Type 593 P3 transmission that was originally in 0846 and raced in 0846 at Le Mans in 66, failed, was rebuilt and used as the Mule when 0846 was converted by Ferrari in the winter of 66 into the P4 prototype so that the Type 603 transmission could be cast which it was by the start of the Daytona race, (Whether or not 0846 was tested with this transmission before the 603 was finished is still being researched) and an original P4 engine which many parts of which including the heads ran at Le Mans in 67 is no idle claim and is rooted in extensive research and forensic investigation.

The first of several articles explaining this in further detail will be out soon. (Aug/Sept Vintage MotorSports) Other articles will follow in due course. In addition those in Monterey in Aug. will be able to have a look for themselves. In the end your analogy to the "Unknown Soldier" may prove to be correct and as I've said many times that's fine with me. There are very few race cars like J6 that raced in only one real race and remain relatively unchanged and as we have seen even those can be confused.

If you PM me I'll be happy to send you a copy of my 0846 research to date as well.
Best

while on the subject of the p4s, i thought i'd share this shot taken by my father of bandini in front of the winning car at daytona 1967 in the ferrari garage. i'll have more shortly. sorry for the so so quality, but the print hangs on the wall in my studio and i took a quickie digital of it this morning.

Originally posted by jj2728
while on the subject of the p4s, i thought i'd share this shot taken by my father of bandini in front of the winning car at daytona 1967 in the ferrari garage.

Yes, JJ, this is definately #0846 - the winner of 1967 Daytona 24Hrs, but I suspect that the photo was probably taken early in the practice sessions. Note the different style of race number (without the day-glo orange borders) and the lack of sponsor decals - it would have had a 'Fram' decal on the leading edge of the door, plus 'Prestone' and 'Champion' decals on the tail, for the race ....

Now all I've got to do is figure out how to upload a photo on Atlas F1, to show you what I mean ! :

Originally posted by P4Replica

Yes, JJ, this is definately #0846 - the winner of 1967 Daytona 24Hrs, but I suspect that the photo was probably taken early in the practice sessions. Note the different style of race number (without the day-glo orange borders) and the lack of sponsor decals - it would have had a 'Fram' decal on the leading edge of the door, plus 'Prestone' and 'Champion' decals on the tail, for the race ....

Now all I've got to do is figure out how to upload a photo on Atlas F1, to show you what I mean ! :

yes you are correct, the photo was taken during the practice sessions as my father spent some days with the team. i do have other pictures of the car with the day-glo borders as i also do of the # 24 and 26 cars. btw, one of those FRAM decals given to my dad by the team (they probably had loads of them!) is somewhere in my collection of race memorabilia. as i said, once i have his selection of slides (100s of them) catalogued and scanned, i'll be sharing more of them online.

In another five minutes, we are going to have more P4's than Lotus 23's...

Originally posted by T54
In another five minutes, we are going to have more P4's than Lotus 23's...

Got some BAD news for you .... I've got details of 80 cars listed, worldwide, on my P4 Replica Register.
By the way - Lee Noble made a 'few' Lotus 23 replicas too ! Though he didn't make quite as many P4's as are claimed here: http://www.noblecars...te/history.html (about half this number in fact).

...make that 9 minutes...

:shrug:

In the end, though, it's nice that people are building beautiful cars so long as they aren't pawned off as an undiscovered VanGogh.

In the end, though, it's nice that people are building beautiful cars so long as they aren't pawned off as an undiscovered VanGogh.

Apparently too late in some cases...

Originally posted by T54: In another five minutes, we are going to have more P4's than Lotus 23's...

posted by P4Replica

Got some BAD news for you .... I've got details of 80 cars listed, worldwide, on my P4 Replica Register.By the way - Lee Noble made a 'few' Lotus 23 replicas too !

But of course those 'Lotus 23' replicas by Noble, or Xanthos or anybody else, are not original racing Lotus cars no matter how accurate in construction they are - and the Noble/Carpenter/Butler/Foreman/Sbarro P4 replicas are just lookalike kitcars with GRP bodies not even moulded from an original, on a different design of chassis, with different engine & gearbox (usually, but not always, not even Ferrari) - so they can't even be talked about in the same breath as a car which, at worst, was built to original factory plans around an original engine and gearbox.

posted by T54

You would be surprised to find out that complete engines, gearboxes and even complete cars have been carefully crafted when money is there and the old remains are too far gone (as I myself witnessed with utter amazement while visiting a very famous British restoration company), and little if any remain from the original P2/P3's, some of them with now P4 bodies out there. It's often a question of the "Old Number 1", or the story of the axe's handle and blade.

It's well known that new BRM V8, Climax 4, Maserati 250F and Ferrari 250GTO engines are being manufactured (though I've never heard of a P4 engine being made from scratch - yet); and it's precisely forums (or rather fora ) like these which are vital in bringing together the sources of evidence and information to ensure that the question is fairly considered and that Van Gogh gets a fair trial. As has been said elsewhere, the car in question has been the subject of the most public rebuilding on record, unlike a certain Aston Martin Project car that sprang out of the woodwork and was promptly discredited, or the occasional GT40 or 250LM duplication.

It's another well-known fact that there were a total of eight P3s and P4s, that one disappeared, and one bitsa (so far), 0900, exists. That's all we've got to think about; replicas with no original parts whatever are irrelevant.

I would love to know what light Forghieri and Borsari would be able to throw on all this!


Paul M

posted by P4Replica:

Probably (in fact, almost certainly) - The BEST P4 replica in the World !

But that one's NOT a replica.

This one would merit that description - alloy body, accurately shaped, only spoilt by having a flat-12 engine:
[IMG]http://img23.exs.cx/...fakeP4fr.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img38.exs.cx/...keP4rear.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img38.exs.cx/...rearbody.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img38.exs.cx/...keP4buck.th.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img38.exs.cx/...P4engine.th.jpg[/IMG]

All images copyright Exoticcarworld.com

I would think that the 365GTC engine would be the nearest available road Ferrari engine to the P3 or P4.

Paul M

Paul ‘Macca’. When I wrote:

Originally posted by P4Replica
Got some BAD news for you .... I've got details of 80 cars listed, worldwide, on my P4 Replica Register. By the way - Lee Noble made a 'few' Lotus 23 replicas too !

it was intended as a facetious reply to Philippe’s (T54) post – a point obviously lost on you. IMHO, Jim Glickenhaus’ P4, is obviously in a different league to even the best P4 replicas, such as the Norwood P4’s and the (Shapecraft ally-bodied) P4 Spyder currently being built by Richard Wilson. As I said in my earlier post #49: “Probably (in fact, almost certainly) - The BEST P4 replica in the World !” Why you continue to delude yourself that this car is anything other than a very good reproduction though, amazes me.

Originally posted by Macca
Noble/Carpenter/Butler/Foreman/Sbarro P4 replicas are just lookalike kitcars with GRP bodies not even moulded from an original, on a different design of chassis, with different engine & gearbox (usually, but not always, not even Ferrari) - so they can't even be talked about in the same breath as a car which, at worst, was built to original factory plans around an original engine and gearbox.

Well – excuse me for breathing ! We are of course NOT talking about an original P4 engine, but a late 1966 3-litre 36-valve F1 engine that has been ‘cosmetically enhanced’ to look like a P4 engine, and a ‘prototype’ Ferrari gearbox of ‘unknown parentage (– possibly a 'prototype' P3 or F1), which is certainly not the correct P4 Type 603R gearbox.

Originally posted by Macca
…. and it's precisely forums (or rather fora ) like these which are vital in bringing together the sources of evidence and information to ensure that the question is fairly considered and that Van Gogh gets a fair trial. As has been said elsewhere, the car in question has been the subject of the most public rebuilding on record ….

A fair trial ? Come off it Macca ! The owner of this car was making specific claims that “this car is #0846” on FerrariChat as far back as October, 2002 – long before any of the so-called ‘evidence’ was ever produced on that forum. And have you ever stopped to think and ask yourself why this so-called ‘restoration’ was made so public ? It certainly helped to build up a big fan base amongst the readership, didn’t it ? So when sceptics like myself came along later, and started asking pertinent questions (which seldom, if ever were replied to), we were immediately shouted down by the ‘#0846 Tifosi’, who by that time were mesmerised by the P4’s beauty and totally brainwashed !

Originally posted by Macca

It's another well-known fact that there were a total of eight P3s and P4s, that one disappeared, and one bitsa (so far), 0900, exists. That's all we've got to think about; replicas with no original parts whatever are irrelevant. ….

And the ‘one that disappeared’ (#0846) is still missing - Paul. This ain’t it ! No matter how much you want it to be. What we are now discussing is another very good ‘Bitsa’ – albeit with far less (if any) original or correct P4 content than #0900 !

Originally posted by Macca
I would love to know what light Forghieri and Borsari would be able to throw on all this!

What would be far more interesting is what light David Piper could shed on this car. He did build it, after all. It’s a shame that he is reluctant to go public. Why don’t you give him a the courtesy of a phone call, Paul, and ask him to tell you about this car, as has been suggested on previous occasions ? I understand that it’s nearly 10 years since you last spoke to him. It’s about time that you updated yourself on the facts of the situation. Or could it be that you’re scared to know the real truth ?;)

Originally posted by Macca
This one would merit that description - alloy body, accurately shaped, only spoilt by having a flat-12 engine:

I think that trip to the opticians might still be in order, Paul.
The Norwood P4 at Exotic Car World (actually now owned by Joe Barone since January 2003) is powered by a 5-litre Batten billet V-12, fitted with TestaRossa heads. And Joe knows exactly what his car is - in an email to me dated 16th January 2003, he referred to the car he had just purchased for $250K as a "fake toy Ferrari". So he's not languishing under any illusions.
P.S. And had you studied any photos of Norwood P4's closely, then you would know that the body shape, especially the curvature of the underside of the nose; the shape of the rear wings and the 'basket handle', and the line of the scuttle (of some of the Norwood P4's) are not particularly accurate ....
Oh, Yes ... and they're all L.H.D.

Just for kicks and comparisons, below is a 3-view drawing I made from pictures I took of the real thing prior to the 1967 le Mans race for the French kit maker Heller. It should be pretty close as I actually measured the car at critical points to extract the correct profile (sorry for the poor quality of the old, beat-up document) :



Regards,

T54

Originally posted by T54
Just for kicks and comparisons, below is a 3-view drawing I made from pictures I took of the real thing prior to the 1967 le Mans race for the French kit maker Heller. It should be pretty close as I actually measured the car at critical points to extract the correct profile (sorry for the poor quality of the old, beat-up document) :

Yes Philippe, it was a good kit in it's day - but the main criticism of the Heller 1:24 P4 (not just my opinion, but other plastic modellers and slot racers) was that that the top line of the windscreen was wrong. On the Heller model, it slopes back a bit too far, and thus causes the roofline to 'recede'. I must admit that I was thrilled with the kit (and the Renault Alpine that was issued around the same time) when it first came out. I've still got my original built-up static kits. Of course it went on to be built under licence by both AMT and Union too, so it was a good seller.
Personally, though, for building (hardbody) 'retro' slot racers, in more recent times, I have found the Fujimi 1:24 kit more suitable (a stronger and lighter body, with fewer separate parts), and somewhat rather more accurately shaped ;)

but the main criticism of the Heller 1:24 P4 (not just my opinion, but other plastic modellers and slot racers) was that that the top line of the windscreen was wrong.

Very correct and observant you are, and when the kit came out this made me nuts! Look at my drawing and the high point is way further back.
The Fujimi is more correct on this level, no doubt. The Heller kit was first issued in 1968 of course, and it was at the time one of the most detailed plastic lit ever produced.
Regards,

T54

posted by P4Replica:

Purely as a matter of interest ....Does anybody have any other photos of this car, (which is not, of course, #0900, but yet another Ferrari P4 Spyder reproduction produced by David Piper)? This is the car which has recently been restored in the USA by Jim Glickenhaus, and is now fitted with aluminium berlinetta bodywork, and referred to as '0846' on the previous page.

Yes, I do.................several..............and quite a bit of video footage, all shot at Goodwood

(The Norwood P4) is powered by a 5-litre Batten billet V-12, fitted with TestaRossa heads.

You mean it hasn't even got a genuine Ferrari block, inside those distinctive TR heads? Even worse!

Well – excuse me for breathing ! We are of course NOT talking about an original P4 engine, but a late 1966 3-litre 36-valve F1 engine that has been ‘cosmetically enhanced’ to look like a P4 engine, and a ‘prototype’ Ferrari gearbox of ‘unknown parentage (– possibly a 'prototype' P3 or F1), which is certainly not the correct P4 Type 603R gearbox.

I don't quite understand how you have turned your speculation from another forum into a statement of fact - the pictures posted there showed the type 693a gearbox in a P3 - not 'possibly', not 'unknown parentage', but IN a P3 Ferrari. And who exactly are you stating has 'cosmetically enhanced' the engine (or to be precise, the cylinder heads) in question?

And had you studied any photos of Norwood P4's closely, then you would know that the body shape, especially the curvature of the underside of the nose; the shape of the rear wings and the 'basket handle', and the line of the scuttle (of some of the Norwood P4's) are not particularly accurate ....

But then I haven't, because I'm not very interested in replicas, as opposed to racing cars.


As has been said on Ferrarichat, the historic facts and many old and new photographs are available for study, and when ALL the evidence is public we'll see it. Until then, you might notice that I haven't expressed a strong view on this thread about 'the ex-Piper car' since July last year, which has now been overtaken by events. What I continue to find extremely irritating is that you dismiss anyone who holds different opinions to yours as "Jim's tifosi".

Paul M

593A N7 (Not 693) In addition this box also bears LeMans 1966 scrutinising stamps.
As the heads on my engine also bear 1967 LeMans scrutinising stamps IMHO it's rather unlikely they're F1.
Best

That's a very interesting detail Mr G. So these ACO stamps appear on the cylinder heads and transaxle casing which you acquired in the car as delivered from Mr Piper? Or have I misunderstood...?

DCN

Yes. Photo's of them are included in the 104+ pages that are on route to you and Don. Including, for comparsion, photos of the stamps on 0844 and 0856. These stamps are on many other parts of my car as well. Ferrari S.P.A., The FCA and many others have this information as well.
Ferrari S.P.A has been aware of my findings for years and their actions, which have helped me restore my car, and postings on their copyrighted web site reflect this. (Copies of Ferrari S.P.A's invoice to me for "P4 SUSPENSION PA " and copies of those Web Site Postings are also included in the pages you should soon be receiving.
Best

What - 'yes' I have misunderstood - or 'yes' these ACO stamps appear on the cylinder heads and transaxle casing which you acquired in the car as delivered from Mr Piper?

And I would also be very interested - if I might enquire - if you could possibly confirm the swept volume of the engine which you acquired in the car from Piper?

DCN

Hi
" 'yes' these ACO stamps appear on the cylinder heads and transaxle casing
which you acquired in the car as delivered from Mr Piper?"

Yes. I and others can confirm that these Le Mans Scrutinizing Stamps appear on the cylinder heads and transaxle castings as well as other parts of my car which I acquired from Mr. Piper and were in the car as delivered from Mr. Piper and there are pictures of those stamps in the documents on route to you as well as answers to your second question including David's legal representations
as to the volumetric capacity, circa, originality and source of the engine he sold me and was in the car as delivered to me which he Warranted and Declared to be true and were described by him and his Lawyer in exactly the same way in each and every document as: "1967 FERRARI 330 P4" , including the Bill of Sale, the original of which resides with US Governmental Authorities and is of course is duly signed, stamped, and notarized.
Rather that go through this piecemeal, especially as I'm off to Monterey and will be a bit busy for the next two weeks, after you've had a chance to look over the material's I've sent you I'd be happy to do my best to answer any and all questions you and others may have.
In the mean time the first of several articles on my car is about to come out in the next issue of Vintage MotorSports. It was written by Ted West who has an excellent article in the new Car and Driver about Champion Audi's Le Mans adventure. In addition for those who wish to see my car in person it will be at Monterey at the FCA Concours at Quail.
Regards

My "packet" arrived on Wednesday and I have only had a chance to just skim it. I have not really begin to dig and sort things out as of yet. After you return from Monterey I should be able to address most of this a bit better.

Sorry I am easily confused and talk of 'warranted', 'notarized', 'lawyer' and 'Government' are about as likely to impress me as would a snake-oil salesman.

Package has arrived now and it's making a very well presented case.... I must confess I remain sceptical and look forward to being convinced - one way or the other - at Monterey...

Some over here are sceptical of your claims because - if you are happy to stand upon the paperwork foundation that Pipes provided "a P4" engine - i.e. 4-litre 36-valve PI 4-cam - when that car had run its life here with a 3-litre F1 unit installed why should one of your posts on FerrariChat, dated November 2003, claim standard original capacity not upgraded to 350 Can-Am spec whereas in a post on a GT40 forum, when asked the capacity of your engine, your response was apparently 4.2 litres, the over-bored 350 Can-Am size....

I hope you can see why there is great suspicion in some quarters that your claims - or ambitions - have perhaps become a little overblown...?

DCN

Doug

What David warranted was only presented in answer to those who've claimed he represented something else to me and other's when he sold me the car which he didn't. Was I stupid to take him at his aural and written word? Perhaps, but in the scheme of things perhaps not.
The Scrutinizing Stamps on the Heads, Transaxle case, and other parts, the right side P4 curved casting rib on the block of my engine vs. the right side straight casting rib on the block of the F1 engine as confirmed by historical photo's are more to the point as is IMO the info about the chassis in my car contained in the packet showing why I believe it contains substantial parts of the chassis remains of 0846.

I believe that my reference to the 350 Can Am was related to the size of the wheel's currently fitted to my car. John Amet told me, among other things, that David used my car to earn money by tire testing GP Tires and therefore used the wider 350 Can Am wheels which were fitted to the car as delivered from David. As that was part of my car's history I decided to stay with that size. (For safety reasons as I plan to drive this car on the street Alberto Pedretti had the wheels recast in alum.) If I stated that, that was my cars current displacement (4.2 liter) that was an unintentional mistake.

As I go into in the packet, when I received the car I immediately had the engine removed and did not personally measure the connecting rods, pistons, or throw of the crank. At that time David had told me and Alberto this was a P4 engine and we believed him. I instructed Alberto and Bob Wallace to rebuild my engine to correct P4 specs. and I have no reason to believe they haven't. (They did replace many of the internals of the engine)

I'm very happy that you'll be in Monterey and look forward to showing you my car. Via PM. I'm sending you my cell #.
Best

FYI

http://www.vintagemo.../this_issue.asp

I admire your open-ness in continuing this discussion in a public forum.

I hope we're not boring anybody by continuing it here...

As I have made clear, I am easily confused. When you write "my reference to the 350 Can Am was related to the size of the wheel's currently fitted to my car" the question asked by one John Rusmussen had in fact been:

"Please excuse my ignorance, its a v12 right? I was trying to count the ignition leads..... BTW absolutely beautiful!!"

Your response to this was simply:

"4.2 liter (256ci) V-12 3 valve 2 plug per cyl. 450hp@ 8000 mech FI. Best Jim "



Thanks for your Monterey contacts - I will definitely try to find the time to discuss the evidence we both have. It's increasingly interesting.

I have to say I don't think it's very wise to assume that one photograph of a contemporary Ferrari Formula 1 engine's casting webs is conclusive evidence that ALL contemporary Ferrari F1 engines were so configured...

Amongst other questions I would like to explore are whether or not your engine has the sandwich plates inserted between the top deck of the block and each cylinder head? And which year Le Mans is indicated by the stamps you mention on your gearbox casing?

Thanks for your time.

DCN

I hope we're not boring anybody by continuing it here...

Au contraire!

Franco Sbarro will make you a perfect set of scrutineer's stamps for any year at le Mans.

Doug, hopefully we will run into you Saturday in the paddock. Please don't do like Mike Salmon who nearly died from sun exposure, bring some serious sun lotion and a cool hat.
Regards,

T54

I'm open to be corrected, but it is my understanding that the P4 in question was not accepted by either the Monterey Historic Automobile Races or the Pebble Beach Concours. It will appear at the Ferrari Club of America Concours as a "display only" item. I do not know whether the latter was the decision of the organizers or the entrant.

I do offer one note of caution here. David Piper knows the value of Ferraris as well as anyone. If he owned a P car that was real, why would he sell it for $500,000, when a $200,000 investment could turn it into something worth $5 million or so, IF he could produce the proper documentation?

I don't see this car being submitted to Ferrari for authentication soon.

BTW, regarding the original intent of this thread, two different Testa Rossas sold for over $10 million this year. P Cars seem to be stuck well below that, say 50-60%.