Mercedes Benz W154 (merged)
#51
Posted 12 July 2007 - 08:26
Further rumors surfaced about the car being secretly restored by Mercedes Benz and that it was to appear for sale at some major auction, I can't remember off hand which. Terry got a court injuction issued but the car never appeared.
Terry was the father of Amanda Stretton. Terry wanted her to learn to race so hired Martin to teach her. He might have got a little more then he paid for.
Advertisement
#52
Posted 13 July 2007 - 09:26
#53
Posted 13 July 2007 - 10:27
Originally posted by Gary C
ten years later, the car still hasn't appeared, ANYWHERE, EVER! (BTW, I reckon Mercedes have it........)
RM advertised the W154 some (maybe 5 ish) years ago - there were photos of it in their adverts.
I came across the following details:
Chassis number 15, second last car built, 1939 specification e.g. W154/163 with different suspension and two stage supercharger.
Rebuilt by Mercedes Classic car division.
Apparently the lawyers sorted the ownership situation out and TC's claim was resolved, so any potential purchaser did not have to worry about an ownership dispute.
It was offered to some of the most likely potential owners and presumably found a new home.
#54
Posted 13 July 2007 - 12:48
#55
Posted 13 July 2007 - 13:29
"During the second half of 1945, a Rumanian engineer called Joska Roman found two W154 on the docks at a Black Sea port, all jumbled up with scrap being shipped back to Russia. He acquired them and took them home to Cluj in the western part of the country. He found that one was complete except for tyres, and the other less so. He fitted truck tyres to the complete car and ran in a hillclimb; unfortunately he crashed heavily due to lack of proper adhesion from the rear tyres in the wet, and the car caught fire. He was badly injured and was in hospital for over a year.
Although not able to work due to his injuries, Roman got in touch with Mercedes-Benz and this correspondence continued for over 20 years. He rebuilt one car with an H type engine and got it running, and then started on the second car, having to copy some bodyworks parts to replace the ones damaged in the accident.
Early in 1964 a man named Gene Jackson from Wisconsin heard about the two cars in Rumania through contacts in Stuttgart. Following the article in the March Road & Track, Jackson contacted Dick Merritt. Correspondance then started with Rumania but Merritt tired of the seemingly endless governement negotiations and passed the file of correspondence on to various dealers. Rob Box was one, and actually drove the complete car down the road in Cluj in 1968.
Finally, in 1971, Dr Georg Ott of Munich, acting on behalf of Dieter Holterbosch of New York, obtained the complete car from Rumania. It was shipped to Stuttgart early in 1972 where some minor work was carried out to get the engine running, but not up to racing revs. It did not have wheels when it left Rumania, but Mercedes made up new wheels centers and Borrani built new wire wheels. Dunlop supplied the tyres, and the car was shipped to New York in the autumn of 1972. Then the car was sold to Joel Finn in 1980 and he has had the engine rebuilt so that it now appears at occasional vintage events in the USA.
A number of other people have visited Clij since 1971 hoping to buy the parts making up the other car, but it is unlikely that they will be sold in the immediate future.".
#56
Posted 13 July 2007 - 15:23
#57
Posted 13 July 2007 - 16:05
Anyone know the history of Bernie's W25?
#58
Posted 13 July 2007 - 16:09
Originally posted by f1steveuk
OT i know, but.........
Anyone know the history of Bernie's W25?
Is this the new one he's ordered from Tom Wheatcroft?
#59
Posted 13 July 2007 - 16:29
#61
Posted 13 July 2007 - 16:46
Originally posted by f1steveuk
OT i know, but.........
Anyone know the history of Bernie's W25?
Does he have a W25?
I think he has the W125 that Colin Crabbe had - there is a photo of it being tested recently at Brands somewhere in this forum?
The Motorsport article says he has ordered the first Wheatcroft W125, I also wonder why he wants a 2nd one - hopefully we will see it in action rather than risk the original?
Or could it simply be to make sure he has a set of spare parts?
#62
Posted 13 July 2007 - 16:56
#63
Posted 13 July 2007 - 20:09
Originally posted by Peter Morley
Chassis number 15, second last car built, 1939 specification e.g. W154/163 with different suspension and two stage supercharger.
Rebuilt by Mercedes Classic car division.
Apparently the lawyers sorted the ownership situation out and TC's claim was resolved, so any potential purchaser did not have to worry about an ownership dispute.
The car was acquired eventually by The Collier Collection in Naples, Florida. It embodies the ultimate pre-war specification of the W154, including the ultimate engine spec. Apart from the tail - damaged in Roman's fiery accident in Rumania, it really retains largely original body panels, as well as chassis, running gear, etc.
DCN
#64
Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:26
#65
Posted 13 October 2011 - 12:02
Mercedes-Benz W154 in Romania
but it sounds as though you have some fascinating new information to add.
#66
Posted 13 October 2011 - 13:12
I'm based in France. Have wheels will travel!!!..two missing W 154's from the 30's ! I was involved with Terri Cohn in the 80's to find and deliver the second Mercedes W154 from Romania. Pit crew chief Roman was given responsibility to hide the two race cars in Romania before Hitlers rampage began in '39. Met in England with Teri to discuss strategy on shipping the "national treasure"..[sic ]..out of Romania as containerized spare truck parts among 19 forty foot containers of dismantled heavy duty trucks to the USA.! One container was waylaid and lost in Switzerland.! I was there.! I think I know what happened.! Anybody want to share this adventure?
#67
Posted 13 October 2011 - 15:29
..two missing W 154's from the 30's ! I was involved with Terri Cohn in the 80's to find and deliver the second Mercedes W154 from Romania. Pit crew chief Roman was given responsibility to hide the two race cars in Romania before Hitlers rampage began in '39. Met in England with Teri to discuss strategy on shipping the "national treasure"..[sic ]..out of Romania as containerized spare truck parts among 19 forty foot containers of dismantled heavy duty trucks to the USA.! One container was waylaid and lost in Switzerland.! I was there.! I think I know what happened.! Anybody want to share this adventure?
Would love to know more about this story.
The story that we are aware of is:
Roman has two W154s, one of them (car 7, chassis number 189437/7) ends up with Joel Finn in the 1980s - and presumably passed onto Mr Samsung (Lee Kun-hee) from Korea and following his legal problems finds a new owner quite recently.
The other one (car 15, chassis number 189445/15) was rolled by Roman and caught fire, around 2006 Roman's son seemingly sold the remains to two different people (Terry Cohn & a Swiss gentleman), after the legal mess was sorted it ends up in the Collier collection.
I remember talking to someone who was involved in purchasing an Auto-Union from behind the iron curtain - his main involvement being to drive the E-type that was being exchanged for the Auto-Union to Eastern europe, the unusual feature of this particular E-type that made it valuable enough to be of interest were the gold bars that were fitted in the sills...
All the stories surrounding the post war rescue of the silver arrows are extremely interesting and usually just as good as any spy movie.
#68
Posted 14 October 2011 - 12:49
DCN
Edited by Doug Nye, 14 October 2011 - 13:12.
#69
Posted 14 October 2011 - 13:18
#70
Posted 14 October 2011 - 13:39
They were very astonished showing Mr. Cohn arriving (at Stuttgart?) on theroad with his, of course, well known, trusty Alfa Monza complete with trailer hitch. And, I hope I am not wrong there, I also seem to recall that it was snowing or (at least) heavily raining.
What a character !
#71
Posted 14 October 2011 - 21:10
Copyright JAG
#72
Posted 14 October 2011 - 23:50
Yep, 'In Search Of The Silver Arrows', I think. Produced by HRH Prince Edward's production company, Ardent Productions, I think.
#73
Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:21
Fairly sure our Doug Nye was a participant
Fascinating programme, anyway
#74
Posted 15 October 2011 - 09:07
Indeed: http://ftvdb.bfi.org...ft/title/547907'In Search Of The Silver Arrows', I think. Produced by HRH Prince Edward's production company, Ardent Productions, I think.
Like David, I still have it on video. It was/is excellent. The nearest Terry got to 'his' GP Mercedes was sitting in one of M-B's cars in the paddock before one of the early Festivals of Speed.
#75
Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:14
#76
Posted 15 October 2011 - 11:49
DCN
#77
Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:00
#78
Posted 15 October 2011 - 15:05
Should this thread be titled "Hitler's missing twin babies"? Did Mercedes not hide cars in pairs as with the Romanian ones? Was The Tommy Lee car not also one of a pair?..two missing W 154's from the 30's ! I was involved with Terri Cohn in the 80's to find and deliver the second Mercedes W154 from Romania. Pit crew chief Roman was given responsibility to hide the two race cars in Romania before Hitlers rampage began in '39. Met in England with Teri to discuss strategy on shipping the "national treasure"..[sic ]..out of Romania as containerized spare truck parts among 19 forty foot containers of dismantled heavy duty trucks to the USA.! One container was waylaid and lost in Switzerland.! I was there.! I think I know what happened.! Anybody want to share this adventure?
Simon Thomas
#79
Posted 16 October 2011 - 16:51
Should this thread be titled "Hitler's missing twin babies"? Did Mercedes not hide cars in pairs as with the Romanian ones? Was The Tommy Lee car not also one of a pair?
Simon Thomas
That car came from Prague - I believe - in what was then Czechslovakia, its twin surviving today in the National Technical Museum...after a couple of years off on display amongst the Donington Collection. But if Ameridacusa is still out there it would be fascinating to hear his recollections as offered.
DCN
Edited by Doug Nye, 16 October 2011 - 16:54.
Advertisement
#80
Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:14
That car came from Prague - I believe - in what was then Czechslovakia, its twin surviving today in the National Technical Museum...after a couple of years off on display amongst the Donington Collection. But if Ameridacusa is still out there it would be fascinating to hear his recollections as offered.
DCN
Cars were indeed stored in pairs with all oil, water and fuel lines removed - and lovely tapered wooden bungs inserted into the holes. Two were still at Stuttgart and two in Berlin in 1945. Others were moved east away from Allied bombing - but towards the advancing Russians. Tommy Lee and Prague Museum car were one pair, another pair supposedly in Poland (one now at Schlumpf) and the two with Joska Roman. First westerner to spot the Joska Roman ones in Cluj was Antione Raffaelli - see pages 71-74 of "Memoirs of a Bugatti Hunter". Someone who has an organised set of Classic & SportsCar could remind us of a story by Simon Moore in that magazine many years ago which told the story and listed engine numbers (both H and K series).
#81
Posted 17 October 2011 - 10:26
Mercedes Benz 1938 W154
where this listing was posted, gleaned from Historic Race & Rally magazine:
Here is information derived from Our Doug and Yves Kaltenbach which appeared in the late, sorely missed Historic Race & Rally Issues 3 and 4:
Mercedes W154 chassis log
Chassis no. werks nr. Kommission Nr.
W154/1 189 431 275 828
W154/2 189 432 275 829
W154/3 189 433 275 830
W154/4 189 434 275 831
W154/5 189 435 275 832
W154/6 189 436 275 833
W154/7 189 437 275 834
W154/8 189 438 275 835
W154/9 189 439 275 836
W154/10 189 440 275 937
W154/11 189 441 275 838
W154/12 189 442 275 839
W154/13 189 443 275 840
W154/14 189 444 275 841
W154/15 189 445 275 842
W154/16 189 443
Mercedes W154 race log
1938 Pau
W154/2 M154/H4 Caracciola
W154/5 M154/H6 Lang
1938 Tripoli
W154/9 M154/H9 Caracciola
W154/8 M154/H8 von Brauchitsch
W154/2 M154/H4 Lang
W154/5 M154/H6 & H7 training
W154/11 M154/H11 training
1938 France
W154/10 M154/H10 Caracciola
W154/4 M154/H12 von Brauchitsch
W154/2 M154/H11 Lang used M154/H6 in training
W154/5 M154/H7 training
1938 Germany
W154/10 M154/H10 Caracciola
W154/4 M154/H12 von Brauchitsch
W154/2 M154/H4 Lang
W154/7 M154/H11 Seaman
W154/1 M154/H2 training
W154/14 M154/H7 training
W154/8 M154/H8 reserve
1938 Coppa Ciano
W154/14 M154/H3 Caracciola
W154/9 M154/H13 Lang
W154/5 M154/H5 von Brauchitsch
W154/10 M154/H10 training
1938 Coppa Acerbo
W154/8 M154/H8 Caracciola
W154/2 M154/H7 Lang
W154/4 M154/H12 von Brauchitsch
W154/10 M154/H10 training
1938 Switzerland
W154/5 M154/H2 von Brauchitsch
W154/14 M154/H14 Caracciola
W154/6 M154/H5 Lang used M154/H13 in training
W154/7 M154/H2 Seaman
W154/10 M154/H10 training
1938 Italy
W154/6 M154/H10 von Brauchitsch used M154/H2 in training
W154/14 M154/H11 Caracciola
W154/12 M154/H3 Seaman
W154/9 M154/H14 Lang
W154/1 M154/H18 training
1938 Donington
W154/10 M154/H6 Baumer
W154/6 M154/H5 von Brauchitsch
W154/4 M154/H18 Lang used M154/H15 in training
W154/7 M154/H9 Seaman
W154/12 M154/H2 training
1939 Pau
W154/9 M154/H16 Caracciola
W154/5 M154/H6 von Brauchitsch
W154/7 M154/H17 Lang
W154/10 M154/H15 training
1939 Eifelrennen
W154/10 M154/H6 Caracciola
W154/9 M163/K2 von Brauchitsch
W154/7 M154/H17 Lang
W154/5 M154/H19 Seaman
W154/6 M154/H15 Hartmann
W154/11 M154/H20 reserve
1939 Belgium
W154/10 M154/H20 Caracciola
W154/7 M154/H15 Lang used M154/H19 in training
W154/9 M163/K2 von Brauchitsch
W154/5 M154/H14 Seaman
W154/6 M154/H16 reserve
1939 France
W154/6 M154/H17 Caracciola used M163/K3 in training
W154/9 M154/11 von Brauchitsch
W154/8 M154/H6 Lang
W154/1 M154/H15 training
W154/10 M154/H6 training
1939 Germany
W154/10 M154/H20 Caracciola
W154/6 M154/H17 von Brauchitsch
W154/7 M154/H9 Lang used M163/K1 in training
W154/4 M163/K2 Brendel
W154/1 M154/H15 training
W154/8 M154/H14 training
1939 Switzerland
W154/9 M163/K2 von Brauchitsch
W154/6 M154/H9 Hartmann
W154/10 M154/H20 Caracciola
W154/7 M163/K3 Lang used M163/K1 in training
W154/8 M163/K3 training also used M154/H15
1939 Yugoslavia
W154/8 M163/K1 Lang
W154/15 M154/H10 von Brauchitsch M154/H18 in reserve
------------------------------------------------------
Here are the Post-War appearance:
1947 Indianapolis
W154/9 M154/H9 Duke Nalon
1948 Indianapolis
W154/9 M154/H9 Duke Nalon
1951 Premio Ciudad de Buenos Aires, Costanera
W154/12 M163/K5 Lang
W154/11 M154/H19 Fangio
W154/16 M154/H14 Kling
1951 Premio Eva Peron, Costanera, Buenos Aires
W154/11 M154/H19 Fangio
W154/16 M154/H17 Kling
W154/12 M163/K5 Lang
----------------------------------------------
Disposition as of the end of 1992:
W154/6 M154/H6 -- Schlumpf
W154/7 M154/H10 -- Joska Roman, Joel Finn, Hans Thulin
W154/9 M154/H9 -- Neil Corner
W154/10 M154/H20 -- Prague
W154/11 M163/K4 & W154/12 M163/K6
W154/14 M154/H4 -- Desutsches Museum in 1938 trim
W154/15 -- Joska Roman
W154/16 M154/H17 -- Schlumpf
-----------------------------------
With apologies to Our Doug if I have copied any information incorrectly. Once again: Pity the poor historian...
I'm sure it would now be useful to revisit this data to see what can be updated with the new info from the past eight years.
#82
Posted 17 October 2011 - 15:19
http://www.paulrusse...kOnTheTrack.pdf
It says the Neil Corner car (number 9) is the one that went to Samsung and is now back in Germany.
The other Roman car (number 7) that passed through Joel Finn's hands is now in the Arturo Keller collection in California.
#83
Posted 18 October 2011 - 16:02
#84
Posted 19 October 2011 - 15:22
#85
Posted 20 October 2011 - 21:47
DCN
#86
Posted 20 October 2011 - 23:02
At the end of 1938 all the existing cars were converted to the standard 1939 configuration. During 1938, cars were raced with short tail/large scuttle tank as follows:
Caracciola at Livorno, Berne and Monza, all W154/14. This car had a different frontal appearance from the other 1938 W154s
Lang at Berne, von Brauchitsch at Monza and Donington, all in W154/6
Seaman at Monza (W154/12) and Monza (W154/7?).
These were the only race appearances of 14, 6 and 12 in 1938. 7 also appeared at the German and Swiss GPs driven by Seaman in both cases. Seaman's car certainly had a long tail in the German GP and a short one at Donington.
So, if Seaman did drive 7 at Donington it was converted from a long tail configuration and it was the only car to which this was done during the season.
All this assumes that the sources listed above are generally correct, but it checks against photographs where I have been able to do so.
#87
Posted 02 September 2014 - 14:37
I am looking for information about this Mercedes Benz engine.
Unfortunately I have no other image.
Many thanks
#88
Posted 05 September 2014 - 15:57
#89
Posted 06 September 2014 - 07:41
The DAB was intended to power the 1936 Grand Prix car but was too heavy. In fact, Uhlenhaut was quoted by Karl Ludvigsen as saying that such a car could have got under the weight limit but would have been too nose heavy for road races.
Significantly more powerful than even the 1937 M125, the DAB was fitted to the record breaking cars of 1936, 1937 and 1938. In the last of these, Caracciola achieved a speed of over 268mph for the flying mile and kilometre. This was then and for many years ( it may still be) the highest officially recorded speed in Europe. Three years earlier it would have been within 10mph of Campbell's Land Speed Record. It was in trying to beat this speed that Bernd Rosemeyer was killed.
The DAB only appeared once at a race meeting, the 1937 Avusrennen, run to a free formula. Zehender had an otherwise standard 1936 Grand Prix car and von Brauchitsch a 1936 GP car with fully enclosed bodywork. Daimler-Benz built a wonderful collection of cars for this race. As well as the two V12s, Caracciola had a W125 with fully enclosed bodywork and Lang had a 1936 Grand Prix chassis with 1937 engine and fully enclosed body. Seaman had an ordinary(!) W125. Zehender's V12 broke in practice and he did not race. Von Brauchitsch won his heat but retired in the final with gearbox failure, possibly caused by overheating in the enclosed bodywork.
Early DABs used the traditional Mercedes pressurised carburettor but they were modified for the 1937 and 1938 record attempts to use the more normal suction carburettors. This followed the successful change in the M125 Grand Prix engine. The engine in the picture appears to be in this configuration so my guess is that it is at one of those record attempts.
Of course, it may not be a DAB....
Edited by Roger Clark, 06 September 2014 - 07:43.
#90
Posted 06 September 2014 - 12:32
#91
Posted 08 September 2014 - 13:46
Thank you for your answers.
Mercedes Benz says it would be a MD 25 DAB 3.
However, the pressure tubes of the carburetor is missing.
Perhaps a development with injection?
#92
Posted 09 September 2014 - 08:15
#93
Posted 09 September 2014 - 10:39
Fine, fine,
Thank you.
I write a report on the mercedes benz record car and I'm looking for a publisher.
#94
Posted 23 March 2018 - 22:13
The photos in the link he posted show a very scruffy-looking car described as Hermann Lang’s 1939 Belgian GP-winning car. As the very useful chassis listing by Don Capps earlier in this thread told us, the car which won in Belgium was chassis W154/7. As also detailed above, this chassis was one of the two obtained by Joszka Roman in Romania. It then passed through the hands of Dieter Holterbosch, Joel Finn and Hans Thulin before ending up with Arturo Keller in Sonoma, California:So if this really works: here are the pictures of it's competitor, the 1939 W154. A real racing car, not an overly restored let alone replica model. Just arrived in the Abbey in Stavelot when I was there early last year. Wonder if it is still there, and who are the owners of this real life racing car.: https://postimg.cc/gallery/ovzbbiti/
https://www.motorspo...idden-treasures
My understanding is that it has appeared at a number of historic events over the years, restored and in running order. Surely this scruffy thing in the Stavelot museum cannot be the same car? So if not, which chassis is it really?
#95
Posted 24 March 2018 - 09:52
#96
Posted 24 March 2018 - 13:09
Apparently the W154 has been loaned to Stavelot by the Cite de l'automobile Mulhouse (e.g. Schlumpf collection).
I don;t recall seeing anything that scruffy in the Schlumpf museum and wonder whether it has ever been on display there?
#97
Posted 24 March 2018 - 14:22
I recall having seen this very car at Deutsches Museum in München several years ago. I'm not entirely sure, but I think it was back in 1992. I remember that the tail was obviously new made. It was (as I think can be seen at the picture) not painted but polished aluminium in a way I've never seen the silver arrows appear.
It's funny that a casual observer can identify -- or attempt to identify -- differences in body construction.
And that my suggestion in the "Mercedes and paint-stripping" thread -- that one can look at bare bodywork to determine if it was made to be painted -- was dismissed by "experts".
#98
Posted 24 March 2018 - 17:34
#99
Posted 24 March 2018 - 19:17
Advertisement
#100
Posted 27 March 2018 - 14:58
The more complete of the two was used as in the early 1950s as a test bed for the new suspension of the W196 (telescopic shock absorbers etc).