Triumph 2.5 PI rally cars

Originally posted by Rob Lees
Here's XJB302H at the finish of the 1975 RL Brown Trophy rally, driven by Hartley Timmins.



I think I've got another shot of it in a similar era in an old Rally Sport somewhere, if it's worth digging out...?

Oh yes please Rob, thanks for this, I have very few pictures of the cars in their post works years, one of the things I'd love to do is to track their history and fill in as many of the blanks (and there are a lot) as I can. Especially as the cars went from person to person, some of which knew very little of their history (to be fair some cared very little too) to be the cars have faired pretty well over the years, most have survived. If anyone has any pictures of XJB305H after the World Cup and in it's Team Castrol days that would great too - as would any more info on it's fate.

Originally posted by RS2000


I haven't worked out how to add comments to the photos site. The "probably" VBL197H caption is "definitely" (another photo later on also shows it as car 1 on the 1969 RAC Rally). To pass scrutineering on that event, a sticker on the inside of the nearside rear side window had to be scratched off. I can't comment on whether that was under the then regulation that advertising could not be carried on glass areas or the regulation that adverts could not be of a political nature - but I saw it before that and it was on Brian Coyle's side of the car and it was of a distinctly extreme right wing nature...

Thanks for that - so many pictures! I think you may have to sign into Picasa (free - same ID for Google etc) to comment. I'll go fix it now.

Originally posted by chinn


Here you go Brian, here's one of your photos.
This is the ex-World Cup car UKV701H now registered as J6749 on the TAP. For those interested I'm putting the images I;ve collected up on the web for anyone to see and comment on. Have a look here

Good to see Brian Englefield turning up in the Nolstalgia Forum! Not having had any contact for 36 years!

I think this picture must be from the Scottish, not the TAP, as the number 129 on the bonnet ties in with the Forster and (David) Skeffington photo from the 1972 Scottish. BTW, I still think it was 1972 when I did the TAP with Brian.

Brian Englefield/Peter Barker No.129 Scottish 1972. Rally plate looks like Scottish and door square is just about visible ("Players No 6"?).
1972 Scottish:

I'm off to see Brian in Normandy on Thursday and one of the things I want to do is work through the cronology of the photos and rallies to see if I can piece together a timeline of whqat happened when, with whom and in what car - should be fun
The other thing I would like to do is to trace as many of the Abingdon works mechanics as I can, I'd really like to research howthe cars were built, by whom, when and where - there so little technical information around on their construction. It's now coming up to 40 years ago that they were built so this may be a challenge!

Originally posted by Ian McKean


Good to see Brian Englefield turning up in the Nolstalgia Forum! Not having had any contact for 36 years!

I think this picture must be from the Scottish, not the TAP, as the number 129 on the bonnet ties in with the Forster and (David) Skeffington photo from the 1972 Scottish. BTW, I still think it was 1972 when I did the TAP with Brian.

Yup, you're right, it's the '72 Scottish

Can anyone date this picture or identify the event for me please?

TAP 72 or later? Top sticker on rear door could be London or Lisbon (but actually doesn't quite look exactly either) and indicates a rally with multiple starting points - which by then was just Monte Carlo or TAP and the surface etc. is not the Monte. There are two others on here who should have all the necessary TAP data.
Hildebrand Bos the driver?

Edit: Plates/stickers appear right for 71 TAP but was No.4 (a London starter) for that. So 72?

Thanks for that, much appreciated. It all sounds plausible that it was the TAP - who are the TAP gurus here? I could do with a run down of the cars and drivers for the '70 to '75 period to see which Triumphs and drivers/owners were involved

Originally posted by RS2000
TAP 72 or later? Top sticker on rear door could be London or Lisbon (but actually doesn't quite look exactly either) and indicates a rally with multiple starting points - which by then was just Monte Carlo or TAP and the surface etc. is not the Monte. There are two others on here who should have all the necessary TAP data.
Hildebrand Bos the driver?

Edit: Plates/stickers appear right for 71 TAP but was No.4 (a London starter) for that. So 72?

Definitely, the picture comes from the 6º Rallye TAP, 1972.


Carles.

Originally posted by chinn
Thanks for that, much appreciated. It all sounds plausible that it was the TAP - who are the TAP gurus here? I could do with a run down of the cars and drivers for the '70 to '75 period to see which Triumphs and drivers/owners were involved

Jorge (jrally) is our portuguese rally specialist.


Carles.

Thanks guys, 6º Rallye TAP, 1972 it is then :-)

Is there an entry list available for these rallies that I can look through?

jrally should have it - he had previously sent me, in conection with something else concerning TAP, the 71 data that enabled me to confirm your photo was not 71.

Incidently, the same photo has appeared on Forum Auto's Triumph Rally thread - who is leading whom?!
http://www.forum-aut...t378115-455.htm

My French isn't good enough to know for sure but they seem to be having the same discussion on whether it was 71 or 72 as us :-)

Keith Baker ( Car 39 World Cup Rally 1970) and I used to work together at the Ordnance Survey in Southampton and because of our mutual interest in motorsport ( I was a member of the Isle of Wight car club for many years) Keith invited me to one of his car club meetings one evening. I recall it was held in a pub someway north of Soton and during the course of the evening 3 of us were having a few beers and I distinctly remember asking if anyone had heard of a marathon event that was being planned to coincide with the World Cup Final to be held in Mexico as I had read about it somewhere. No one knew of this event and I recall there was some lengthy discussion and they were keen about finding more information. The third person talking to Keith and myself I remember as being quite a bit older than either of us and is highly likely to have been Adrian Lloyd- Hirst. I don't recall much more about the evening as I wasn't driving! Anyway the rest is history other than I still have a postcard sent to me from Keith from Rio dated 6.05.70 telling the story of what happened to the car on the European leg. I also have a christmas card photo of XJB304H on the '70 RAC. I've had a go a loading them on to this site without success but if anyone is interested I can email them by attachment. Just contact me ; info@memjog.com

Especially as the cars went from person to person, some of which knew very little of their history (to be fair some cared very little too) to be the cars have faired pretty well over the years, most have survived. If anyone has any pictures of XJB305H after the World Cup and in it's Team Castrol days that would great too - as would any more info on it's fate.

Just trying to clear up a slight mystery surrounding the 2nd placed World Cup car. I was told, by Patrick Walker who owns the ex-Cowan car XJB304H, at the NEC last November that XJB305H had been broken up by the factory "due to lack of space". Now, when I was working with BL at Canley in the 1970s I used to drive this car occasionally and once took it to a Standard-Triumph event in Devon. This would have been in 1974 and at that time the car was retained on the "demonstration" fleet in its last guise as a Team Castrol car alongside current production vehicles. This was separate from both the press fleet (maintained at the Service Division at Allesley) and the collection of Standard cars. I believe that the car, complete with event numbers from its last rally (Cyprus 1972?) was then exhibited initially at Donington on the formation of Leyland Historic Vehicles Ltd., and later at Syon Park.

Can anyone confirm if it survived beyond that period (late 1970s) and whether it wa subsequently broken up? It would seem to be a bit of an act of vandalism to have destoyed this car at such a late stage in its life. It did, after all, finish second on the WCR and not that far behind the victorious Escort either!

I think Cyprus 71 rather than 72. Someone I worked with was on holiday there and came back full of stories of encountering a rally and talking to Culcheth/Syer at a control. In 72 Culcheth/Syer were using a Dolomite on UK "home" Internationals like the Welsh and Scottish.

(Of course what I should have done was first checked Bill Price's book - Cyprus 71 is the last listing of a works 2.5Pi entry).

I think Cyprus 71 rather than 72. Cyprus 71 is the last listing of a works 2.5Pi entry).

It still had the Cyprus Rally door number panels, etc., on it when I drove it. Just couldn't remember the year! Maybe the car is still hidden away somewhere. I was sorry to have missed the WCR40 event last year at Gaydon but I believe that XJB305H wasn't listed, which is a shame, and certainly would have been a tremendous pairing with FEV1H at the NEC display last year.

This is XJB304H on the WCR40 stand at the National Classic Motor Show in November 2010

Edited by Pullman99, 05 December 2011 - 06:44.

I couldn't make WCR40 either - and am now seeking the owner or keeper of the Hunter replica that was apparently there.

This is John Brundles example taken on a Norfolk road rally in the early seventies.

Martin's father Richard?

Yes Sterl, strangely enough I gave Martin a print of this on Wednesday when he was up at Snett for the circuit referb launch day. He actually remembered the reg number of the car even though he would not have been very old at that time. I had not seen this pic (Scanned from a slide) since the early seventies when I took it until I scanned it last weekend !

Edited by Richard Styles, 16 January 2011 - 23:31.

Robin was in some of the events that I did too...........

John, Martin & Robin did a very early Willhire 24hrs together in a Toyota Celica which according to Martin was a trade in off the garage forcourt !!

I think this was the car that Robin rallied too............great days. Love the P.I.

I couldn't make WCR40 either - and am now seeking the owner or keeper of the Hunter replica that was apparently there.

Is this the car? The owner was tackling the London to Sydney route with an exact replica of the 1968 car to raise funds for prostate cancer. Not sure of how they are, or were, getting on but I believe that Sky News was following it at one stage.

London to Sydney Hunter replica

Is this the car? The owner was tackling the London to Sydney route with an exact replica of the 1968 car to raise funds for prostate cancer. Not sure of how they are, or were, getting on but I believe that Sky News was following it at one stage.
London to Sydney Hunter replica

No, WCR London-Mexico 1970 (WCR40 was the 40th anniversary day at Gaydon), not London-Sydney 1968. I gather one of the London-Sydney replicas (3 at one time or 2 plus the real one?) may now have been re-worked into a WCR70 replica. I think Gordon Jarvis (better known now as one of Richard Burns two mentors) built one of the replicas. There's more than one WCR70 replica too, I think, but it's the one of No.81 with "E. J. Wolfe Ltd." on the front wing that I am interested in.

Edited by RS2000, 17 January 2011 - 21:37.

I think Gordon Jarvis (better known now as one of Richard Burns two mentors) built one of the replicas. There's more than one WCR70 replica too, I think, but it's the one of No.81 with "E. J. Wolfe Ltd." on the front wing that I am interested in.

Yes. I have now found my programme for the event. It was indeed entered at Gaydon by Gordon Jarvis as a replica of car No. 81. (MKV15F) although the replica is registered CMC946H. According to the short piece in the programme, it was built in 2004 from data supplied by Des O'Dell. The programme also lists the display of real WCR Hunter No. 83 (GEJ166F) ex- W G James and now owned by Graham Moore. Didn't realise that there were so many replica cars built! The original Cowan / Coyle / Malkin London to Sydney winner, despite having remained relatively unmolested after the event, was used by Andrew Cowan in the historic re-run in 1993 but has now been restored to original specification and is displayed in (and presumably now owned by) Coventry Transport Museum.

Hope this helps. You could always try contacting some of the organisers. The website appears to still be live:

WCR40 site contacts

Still on the lookout for definitive info on the fate of XJB305H

Thanks. I knew Gordon Jarvis in the early 70s and later on the RAC so can track him down. It was unfortunate that the only available crew member from car 81 was unaware of the WCR40 event at the time and only learnt of it afterwards in June when in UK to race in HSCC at Mallory Park. Bernard Unett is of course no longer with us and the entrant/3rd crew member, Mike Tyrrell is er.. otherwise engaged by HMG.

(CMC946H was the reg no of the real 81)

Edited by RS2000, 18 January 2011 - 21:32.

Still on the lookout for definitive info on the fate of XJB305H

Is there any real evidence that it was not scrapped "on orders from top management" as Graham Robson writes in his WCR40 book? The only money keeping any sort of BL International rally programme going 73/74 time was from Leyland International with their Marina appearances dominating, so a no longer favoured model like the big Triumph might well have been subject to drastic decisions from the likes of the unsentimental Stokes.

Is there any real evidence that it was not scrapped "on orders from top management" as Graham Robson writes in his WCR40 book? The only money keeping any sort of BL International rally programme going 73/74 time was from Leyland International with their Marina appearances dominating, so a no longer favoured model like the big Triumph might well have been subject to drastic decisions from the likes of the unsentimental Stokes.

I have so far failed to obtain a copy of Graham's book. Must make amends! I drove XJB305H several times in 1973/74 and I think that any scrapping may have been done much later than that. Certainly after the departure of the late and unlamented Lord Stokes. In the 1974 period, the car was not part of any "historic" entity and was maintained by the same department that looked after all of the dealer demonstration fleet including any cars prepared for special events such as Wimbledon. Indeed, they wanted to replace all of its rally prepared mechanicals with standard units "to make driving it easier"! Leyland historic Vehicles was formed in 1976 to "sweep up" all of the historic materials and vehicles scattered throughout the empire and I believe that I am correct in saying that XJB305H was included in that transfer.

I was also amazed to see from the WCR40 programme that the 10th placed Rosemary Smith Austin Maxi is reported as "believed scrapped" following the closure of the apprentices school at the Pressed Steel plant at Swindon where it was stored. I'll leave the conjecture / debate continuing for now.

Paddy Hopkirk the Ex Motorcycle racer?

Just visiting the NMM at Beauleu this morning. They're preparing a new exhibition fo the Hall of Fame entrance entitled "Feats of Endurance". Amongst quite a broad selecton of vehicles are the World Cup Rally winning Ford Escort FEV1H and the Asutin Maxi of Prince Michael of Kent.

Unfortunately, the caption for this refers to the "Daily Mail World Cup Rally". The rally number panels with "Daily Mirror" emblazoned on them should have provided a slight clue!

Pic to follow when I have more time.

Edited by Pullman99, 01 April 2023 - 15:39.

I have so far failed to obtain a copy of Graham's book. Must make amends! I drove XJB305H several times in 1973/74 and I think that any scrapping may have been done much later than that. Certainly after the departure of the late and unlamented Lord Stokes. In the 1974 period, the car was not part of any "historic" entity and was maintained by the same department that looked after all of the dealer demonstration fleet including any cars prepared for special events such as Wimbledon. Indeed, they wanted to replace all of its rally prepared mechanicals with standard units "to make driving it easier"! Leyland historic Vehicles was formed in 1976 to "sweep up" all of the historic materials and vehicles scattered throughout the empire and I believe that I am correct in saying that XJB305H was included in that transfer.

I was also amazed to see from the WCR40 programme that the 10th placed Rosemary Smith Austin Maxi is reported as "believed scrapped" following the closure of the apprentices school at the Pressed Steel plant at Swindon where it was stored. I'll leave the conjecture / debate continuing for now.

When I was writing the WCR40 book, it was Brian Culcheth, no less, who told me that the scrapping took place. He was as miffed as many other people ....

By the way - I still have one or two copies of the WCR40 book, published in 2010, in stock here ....


GRAHAM ROBSON

By the way - I still have one or two copies of the WCR40 book, published in 2010

Which reminds me, I must ask who has the copyright of the photo therein of the 4 Hunters together.

Maybe for the Book Thread, but I only bought the book reluctantly, having hated all the Marathons in period for what they did to regular International rallying. I found it excellent with far more deep information than I expected at this distance from 1970.

The Hunters? Any photos of or notes on No.81 are needed for a history of Antiguan motorsport.
A very short item then?
Actually no. Tales of ex-works F2 Brabhams, 4 consecutive UK F3 poles in an ex-Tony Brise March, drug smuggling and long imprisonment, present day HSCC racing Alfas, island drag racing on track and street....and the 1970WCR and a donkey cart in Bulgaria.

When I was writing the WCR40 book, it was Brian Culcheth, no less, who told me that the scrapping took place. He was as miffed as many other people .... By the way - I still have one or two copies of the WCR40 book, published in 2010, in stock here ....GRAHAM ROBSON

Hi Graham,

We've bumped into each other a few times. Great to see you on the Forum!

I still cannot quite believe that, after seemingly being "preserved", XJB305H was then broken up under the auspices of the British Motor Industry Heritage Trust. The saga of the Rosemary Smith Maxi would also indicate that the Triumph was not alone in meeting this fate. In 1980, the NMM had a Royal Motoring theme at its stand at the NEC Motor Show and amongst the cars exhibited was HRH Price Michael of Kent's Maxi. At that stage, the 10th place Maxi was certainly still in existence within the BMIHT collection which at that time was based at Syon Park with its HQ at Studley. Maybe they did run oiut of room with vehicles scattered about the former empire but it does seem an ignominious end to great endeavours and has left the Triumph rallying heritage at least very much depleted. The legacy of Lord Stokes's ill-considered (to be polite) closure of the BL Competitions Departnment obviously continued into much later times!

Actually, remembering back, it was a surprise that the car survived at all as it was trundled around the dealers and shows for a long time after 1971 and I remember the boss of the department at Canley (it looked after the dealer demonstrator fleet) had suggested removing all the special WC equipment - gearbox especially - "to make it easier to drive". The late Bob Train and I convinced him otherwise! It was the only "historic" Triumph in the company's ownership at the time (all the other historic cars kept within the company were Standards) although (OT) a pre-war Gloria was acquired and restored for exhibition in New York for the marque's (car) 50th anniversary in 1973. The eventual outcome is a great shame although not without parallels in the aviation and maritime preservation worlds.

If you PM me with the details, I would love to order a WCR40 book.

Looking forward to the revisited "Works Escorts" book next year!

Ian

Edited by Pullman99, 11 October 2012 - 10:22.

If you PM me with the details, I would love to order a WCR40 book.

Looking forward to the revisited "Works Escorts" book next year!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not clever enough to send you a PM, as your system seems to be disabled. Please contact me instead, giving me a private e-mail address.

GRAHAM ROBSON

Pullman99, I was trying to send you a PM but it has been blocked. Could you PM me please re; Brian Culcheth's car, XJB305H.

Thanks
Nick

And I still have one or two copies of WORLD CUP RALLY 40 here, at home ....

My e-mail : aagrahamrobson@aol.com

GRAHAM ROBSON

Pullman99, I was trying to send you a PM but it has been blocked. Could you PM me please re; Brian Culcheth's car, XJB305H.Thanks Nick

Hi Nick,

Got your email and have replied. Good luck with your research. No, I couldn't get through the PM block either. Any ideas, Mr Moderator?

Ian

And I still have one or two copies of WORLD CUP RALLY 40 here, at home ....My e-mail : aagrahamrobson@aol.com
GRAHAM ROBSON

Thanks Graham.

My reply to Nick explains lack of response! I will contact you by email regarding ordering a WCR40 book. Many thanks for posting.

Ian

UKV appears in a couple of Works posters, one produced by BL South America and another by BL Australia I think ....

 

 

... France too ...spot the advertising agencies mistake ;-)

 

Thanks for the info on the fate of this car   

According to the GRO Death Index, he was born 6 Oct 1916. His death was registered in Surrey SW in Dec 1994.

http://tinyurl.com/3343gr

 

I wonder if this could be the same person as Cmdr Adrian Lloyd Hirst b 1917, d 1994 buried at the British Cemetery in Montevideo ?