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Formula Two - the iconic proving ground

Started by Twin Window , Sep 01 2006 23:13

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186 replies to this topic

#51 Chris Bloom

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 19:25

Those are really fantastic pictures Stuart. It's fascinating to see the sort of things going on in the background of the paddock shots, the clothes people are wearing, the old cars, the general lack of corporate blandness! :clap:

Thank you for sharing them with us, even if it took me half an hour to load them all with my 56k modem:eek:

#52 Vicuna

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 20:47

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
Dave McConnell was a Canadian who regularly did the Tasman Series in using a Lotus 69, then a GRD, and Subsequently a Surtees, probably the same one shown here.
F2 was good then, but to fair we have hit a seam with GP2

I thought he was pretty good.

#53 Alan Cox

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Posted 06 September 2006 - 22:01

Here are some of my efforts from the August 1981 Donington Euro F2 round.

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Christian Danner+March 812

A selection of Stefan Johansson and his DS Team Toleman T850
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Eje Elgh (Maurer) leads Boutsen, Guerrero, Cecotto, Thackwell and Crawford.

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Mike Thackwell/Ralt RH6

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Geoff Lees, and Huub Rothengatter (March 812)

Manfred Winkelhock/Maurer
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Tiff Needell (AGS) leads Fredy Scharnwiler and Christian Danner

#54 Twin Window

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 10:54

Great stuff, Alan! :up:

Do you have any more?! I'm somewhat perplexed by the small number of mine I can find, so I'm going to have to do a mass trawl and see if I can unearth some more. I certainly took loads, but I fear they're long-lost...

#55 petefenelon

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 11:48

I've been instructed by a certain Johansson stalker er, fan ;) of my acquaintance to pass on thanks for all the shots of him...;)

#56 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 11:55

Was Thackwell caught auditioning for the next Lord of the Rings film?

#57 Alan Cox

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 12:40

Amazing the difference a couple of years can make - first photo is one of Mike taken in 1979, and then two years later at Donington

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#58 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 13:28

Originally posted by Rockford
Great pictures!

I've really enjoyed GP2 this season

F2 was just great! I remember being at Snetterton in '67 as a young lad for the meeting there and was at Brands for the final race in '84. Inbetween I saw many F2 races at Mallory, Thruxton, Donington, Crystal Palace and Silverstone but alas never Oulton or on the continent.

F2's modern equivalent GP2 is just fantastic! It does everything that F3000 did not and one thing it is doing is making the whole F1 paddock stop to look. F3000 never did that and no other supporting race does. It may be a one make formula but boy have they got it right, cars that oversteer, cars that can overtake and they look and sound brilliant. Driver talent really counts in GP2, hence the position young Lewis Hamilton finds himself in. If you ever get the chance to see the second GP2 race from Turkey, more overtaking than you will see in the entire F1 season by some margin. I'm with Ian Titchmarsh on this one, Lewis is the most exciting British talent since Tony Brise. GP2 makes up for the rest of the boring mundane modern racing scene.

For me the best things to have happened in this sport in the past 10 years are GP2 and The Goodwood Revival.

#59 Mallory Dan

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 13:31

The shot of Rothengatter, Alan, I don't think thats Geoff L behind him. Piero Necchi March I think.

#60 Hieronymus

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 13:50

I am still waiting for the day that someone will publish a decent book on the European F2 championship. So much have been written on F1 and Sports car racing, but F2 is still miles behind.

How about it Stefan???

#61 zakeriath

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 14:55

Originally posted by Hieronymus
I am still waiting for the day that someone will publish a decent book on the European F2 championship. So much have been written on F1 and Sports car racing, but F2 is still miles behind.

Have you seen "the complete book of formula 2 motor racing" by Tristan Wood, published 84, ISBN 0 85429 366 3.

#62 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 14:57

Yes, I have that but unfortunately it is not very 'complete'. Could do with a record of all race results.
I also have the Formula Ford version.

#63 zakeriath

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 15:04

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Yes, I have that but unfortunately it is not very 'complete'. Could do with a record of all race results.
I also have the Formula Ford version.

Fully agree, but its about the only "dedicated" book on F2 I have seen, and for £3.50 on e bay not to bad value.

#64 Alan Cox

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 16:42

Dan, quite right. It's Necchi behind Rothengatter - the reference to Geoff Lees should relate to the cockpit shot. Sorry to confuse.

#65 RTH

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Posted 07 September 2006 - 18:17

Originally posted by Cirrus
Minimal downforce and grippy tyres is a proven recipe for great racing. If I ever need cheering up, I watch a recording of the 1970 Crystal Palace F3 race (you know the one - 3 wheels on my Lotus 59 - handbags at dawn) and reminisce....

Mind you, minimal downforce and low-grip tyres is pretty good as well - I've just been thinking about all the great 70s and 80s FF Festivals I've witnessed.

Nothing to stop us having 1 litre production based race engines again , nearly every manufacturer has one now, most are 3 cylinders and wingless F3 cars with plenty of daylight underneath them , ... with multiple chassis makers. Could be inexpensive racing !

#66 Hieronymus

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 05:40

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Yes, I have that but unfortunately it is not very 'complete'. Could do with a record of all race results.

I think we need something on F2 in the line of a TIME AND TWO SEATS, GRAND PRIX WHO'S WHO and Steve Small's GRAND PRIX!

Surely there are loads of information, photos, etc to play with...it is just a matter of fitting it all into one book. Nothing is impossible, though.

#67 petefenelon

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 09:03

Originally posted by Hieronymus

I think we need something on F2 in the line of a TIME AND TWO SEATS, GRAND PRIX WHO'S WHO and Steve Small's GRAND PRIX!

Surely there are loads of information, photos, etc to play with...it is just a matter of fitting it all into one book. Nothing is impossible, though.

It shouldn't just be data, it should be stories (although Janos and Steve both include lots in their books!). F2 seemed to have more stories than contemporary F1, because it still had that mix of professionals on the way up, journeymen, no-hopers and serious amateurs right up to the end. And without the bullsh*t and silly money it was a formula for racers.

The problem is of course the market. I've suggested to at least one writer that a history of F2 would be a good idea (he's already covered a lot of it from the perspective of various different marques) but he reckons 'no audience'. And maybe at the 20-quid mass market book he's right; maybe it does mean a specialist, expensive book that's only of interest to a few hundred people...

I know I'd buy it.

#68 petefenelon

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 09:03

Originally posted by Hieronymus

I think we need something on F2 in the line of a TIME AND TWO SEATS, GRAND PRIX WHO'S WHO and Steve Small's GRAND PRIX!

Surely there are loads of information, photos, etc to play with...it is just a matter of fitting it all into one book. Nothing is impossible, though.

...actually I think you meant Mike Lang's "Grand Prix!". One of the neglected classics.

#69 Hieronymus

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 09:40

Originally posted by petefenelon

...actually I think you meant Mike Lang's "Grand Prix!". One of the neglected classics.

Yes, correct. Silly mistake, sorry.

A specialist book on F2 is what I also have in mind, but as you mentioned it will only cater for a small market of enthusiasts. Still, though, we need a most definate reference guide on F2 racing and I am convinced that it will sell in the end.

#70 angst

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Posted 08 September 2006 - 10:22

Oohh, ooh, I loved F2. More pics, more stories, please.

Not the greatest contribution I know, but it's the best I can do right now.

#71 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 12 September 2006 - 22:49

Please anyone , tell me the colours of the Tecno F2 works team in 1968-69 ?
Regards Bjørn Kjer

#72 David M. Kane

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 00:21

Boy in the 2nd shot Mike Thackwell looks like he wasn't enjoying his racing at all! Was the pressure getting to him? I never saw him race; but I understand he had a lot of natural ability.
Was he too laid back, not ambitious enough...why did he walk away?

#73 Twin Window

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 05:59

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer

Please anyone , tell me the colours of the Tecno F2 works team in 1968-69 ?

Red, white and gold IIRC.

Originally posted by David M. Kane

Boy in the 2nd shot Mike Thackwell looks like he wasn't enjoying his racing at all!

He was ahead of his time...

Thack suffered a major shunt at Thruxton at the start of 1981 which not only affected him physically, it left some mental scarring too.

#74 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 06:52

Thank you Twinny , allthough I have great interest in the old F2, I really never noticed colours or so , only results, and I know that Tecno had a n ex Ferrari Bartoletti Fiat 2 stage transporter, so I am trying to get a little closer to "it". Regards Bjørn Kjer :smoking:

#75 Rob29

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 07:09

Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
Thank you Twinny , allthough I have great interest in the old F2, I really never noticed colours or so , only results, and I know that Tecno had a n ex Ferrari Bartoletti Fiat 2 stage transporter, so I am trying to get a little closer to "it". Regards Bjørn Kjer

Think they were red & yellow (Shell)colours in '69.F3 were the same-I have a Cevert photo somewhere.

#76 MonzaDriver

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 08:47

Dear Twinny,
thank you a lot for your F2 photos !!!!!
Many times I wondered about the Hunt and Hesket period before F1.
But I've never seen a single picture of those races ( I was a James's fan)
Now I've seen something. Nostalgia at full throttle I believe for you.

Ciao.
MonzaDriver

#77 Rob29

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:02

Originally posted by Rob29
Think they were red & yellow (Shell)colours in '69.F3 were the same-I have a Cevert photo somewhere.

Just checked my records ;68-red;69-red & yellow;70-red & gold(Motul);71-Turquoise(Elf)

#78 Bjorn Kjer

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 12:35

And thanks to Rob 29.

#79 Nanni Dietrich

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 14:18

Originally posted by Rob29
Just checked my records ;68-red;69-red & yellow;70-red & gold(Motul);71-Turquoise(Elf)

I do agree. In 1971: works team Tecno, blue cars Elf sponsored (Cevert, Jabouille and Depailler) and Team Ceramiche Iris, white cars with red or green nose (Nanni Galli, Merzario, Fontanesi).

#80 RDV

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 14:36

Andrew Kitson -F2 was just great!

Quite agree.... was there at the time and quite enjoyable...... but wonder if it had something to do with being young....

.

Do remember sitting in bars late at night with the old lags as the new lad and hearing them reminisce about how racing had gone down the pan, and how great it was in the "old" days...

Have done some GP2 and it is a pale shadow of the old F2, with cars that are basicaly pigs... and you cant touch them either.... F3000 in its early period, with free chassis was a lot more interesting, be it in engineering, or in close fought races, just never got the coverage GP2 does.

Just looks good in comparison to F1....

#81 RTH

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 14:55

Originally posted by RDV

Just looks good in comparison to F1....

Wouldn't be hard.

#82 sterling49

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 14:57

I spent my early years living at Brands Hatch, being able to cycle there at evrey opportunity.Having seen the great years of 1962-1986, I now hardly ever go there, although I still live in the same area. Memories............ August Bank Holiday meetings, Jim Clark in a Lotus 30/40, F2 Lotus, Lotus Cortina on two wheels, in Mac Daghorns Felday B.R.M. 4WD....halcyon days. The quality of the F2 races were outstanding, but alas taken for granted as the norm back then.......Clark, Brabham, Hill, Rindt, Rees,Ickx,Stewart etc......modern racing.......thanks. but I would rather watch paint dry!!!!!
Boxing Day meetings, B.O.A.C 1000, ETC 6 hour races.......eat your hearts out you modernists!!!

#83 sterling49

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 15:07

.....oh, do any of you guys remember the incredible performance put up by Jacky Ickx in (I think) a Matra MS5 formula 2 car against the established Grand prix drivers of the day at Nurburgring ( 1966 or '67 I think).....I wish I was there but had a great image of the race thanks to my weekly bible....Motoring News.....why oh why can't Motorsport pick up on some of these incredible races, Pedro at the B.O.A.C in the wet with Porsche 917, John Fitzpatrick leading the Brands ETC round agianst much bigger cars...until a few laps from the end......in a Broadspeed 1300 G.T. Escort.......is it my "rose coloured spectacles?" or will the sport ever improve again?

#84 David M. Kane

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 15:16

Sterling49:

Couldn't agree more, Jackie Ickx was magic that day and Pedro in the 917 at Brands was awesome! Pedro sure impressed Amon!

#85 Updraught

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 15:21

Also, Dave McConnell and family owned the St. Jovite track for many years (at least 1980's and 90's). However, I believe its recent rebuild and rebirth has been under new ownership.

#86 sterling49

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 15:38

Cosworth......I watched a certain Dan Gurney a few times......put Jim Clark under such pressure in the '65 Race of Champions that he crashed...one of the few people he feared.

#87 RTH

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 15:59

Welcome, Sterling, you are in the right place, and quite right.

The sad thing is it doesn't have to be this way. I was at Brands every weekend in the early seventies as a spectator then a competitor, we had a packed programme of varied and diverse races of great interest at that time , its drifted off since that time.

#88 David M. Kane

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 16:04

Lawerence Strolle (spelling?) of Tommy Hilfinger fame now owns it. He sunk a ton of money into it...like $25M US for a total overhaul. It is mega now, one of the best tracks in the world; but is a very, very prissy environment where the common man is not made to feel welcome. They even treat the competitors like crap. We were treated so badly 2 years ago, we didn't race their this year. The grids I understand were very small this year, so others agreed with us.

#89 Hieronymus

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 08:01

For those that are interested in race statistics* , here are some data on all the European F2 Championship races from 1967-1984:

Most wins by drivers: Rindt (12), Giacomelli (11), Thackwell (9)

Most points by drivers: Thackwell (164), Henton (126), Depailler (119)

Overall Chassis successes: March (77), Ralt (23), Brabham (18)

Overall Engine successes: BMW12 (96), Cosworth FVA (41), Ford BDA (20)

* Stats taken from an article published in AUTOSPORT (4 Oct. 1984)

#90 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 13:21

I would have paid a lot of money to see Rindt race in F2.

#91 Rob29

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 14:51

Originally posted by David M. Kane
I would have paid a lot of money to see Rindt race in F2.

Actually cost me I think,5 shillings (25p) Crystal Palace 1964

#92 David M. Kane

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 15:01

Did you get your monies worth? That must have been awesome!

#93 Rob29

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 17:34

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Did you get your monies worth? That must have been awesome!

I guess I thought so at the time.Was my favourite meeting ofthe year.Went to the spring F2 in 57,59,60,64-68,70-71.Great days-paddock pass was £1 extra and you could rub shoulders with the likes of Rindt,Clark,etc.

#94 Alan Cox

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 18:55

Some driver shots from Donington 1977

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Riccardo Patrese Posted Image

Piercarlo Ghinzani

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Alex Ribiero

And some from 1978
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Marc Surer leads Stephen South

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Marc Surer

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Keke Rosberg pressing on (as usual)

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Piero Necchi

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Hoshino in the Nova

#95 Twin Window

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 19:31

Great images as usual, Alan - I particularly appreciate the cockpit shots!

Now tell me... have you used Photoshop (or similar) to fettle them - plus the first action shot, perhaps - and not the others?

#96 Alan Cox

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 20:59

Yes I have, Twinny - on the first four shots. I couldn't decide on whether the others looked a bit washed out, so left them much as they were. You presumably think otherwise?

#97 Twin Window

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Posted 08 October 2006 - 21:24

Originally posted by Alan Cox

I couldn't decide on whether the others looked a bit washed out, so left them much as they were.

I wouldn't say 'washed-out' Alan, but like all old pics, their colours get distorted over time.

I had a very quick stab at the other four, by way of a comparison;

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Some makes of film seem to go red over time, others yellow, and others blue - yours (in this instance) have done the blue thing!

I love seeing your images, and would relish the opportunity of *restoring* (I've not cleaned any of these) the originals, as you have some magic material in your archive...

:up:

#98 Alan Cox

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 06:57

Thanks for your helfpul comments - in the case of transparencies I shall have a go at cleaning them all. Interesting that you spotted that the first four had been given some help.

#99 philippe7

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 07:24

Originally posted by Alan Cox
in the case of transparencies I shall have a go at cleaning them all.

Sorry to drift off topic for one moment but since Alan mentions "cleaning" : I recently gained access to a scanner that takes slides and negs and I went through a couple of boxes of old transparencies to sort them out and I was distressed by the sorry state they are in : it's not just dust that you could blow away, there are various dark spots ( mould ? ) strongly attached on the film, which I couldn't even start to get rid of with those small tissues for cleaning glasses (spectacles) I experimented with . I havent' dared to try with any other "stronger" fluids like 70 or 90% alcohol but can anyone propose a solution to this sorry state of affairs ? Thanks in advance

#100 David M. Kane

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 15:54

Jerry Entin arranged a lunch last Friday for Shairon and I with Brett Lunger. He said he was managed by Rod Campbell, and Rod negotiated a deal for him to do a factory F2 drive with March for 35,000 British Pounds. That included engine rebuilds, one mechanic...the whole deal; then the world currency turned very favorable to the the U.S. Dollar, so it became a REALLY good deal.

Rod Campbell also managed George Eaton, the Canadian driver who did Can-Am and drove some BRM F1 races.

Brett also drove a Chevron F2 which he thought was a good car too.

Currently, his passion is flying. Both he and his wife Caroline are avid pilots. He is extremely fit having done a lot of cycling until recently including quit a few races. He is also a keen runner.

He was a very enjoyable man to chat with, very open with a quick smile.

Does anyone have any other F2 photos of Brett?

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Formula Two - the iconic proving ground

#51 Chris Bloom

#52 Vicuna

#53 Alan Cox

#54 Twin Window

#55 petefenelon

#56 Allen Brown

#57 Alan Cox

#58 Andrew Kitson

#59 Mallory Dan

#60 Hieronymus

#61 zakeriath

#62 Andrew Kitson

#63 zakeriath

#64 Alan Cox

#65 RTH

#66 Hieronymus

#67 petefenelon

#68 petefenelon

#69 Hieronymus

#70 angst

#71 Bjorn Kjer

#72 David M. Kane

#73 Twin Window

#74 Bjorn Kjer

#75 Rob29

#76 MonzaDriver

#77 Rob29

#78 Bjorn Kjer

#79 Nanni Dietrich

#80 RDV

#81 RTH

#82 sterling49

#83 sterling49

#84 David M. Kane

#85 Updraught

#86 sterling49

#87 RTH

#88 David M. Kane

#89 Hieronymus

#90 David M. Kane

#91 Rob29

#92 David M. Kane

#93 Rob29

#94 Alan Cox

#95 Twin Window

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