Lotus 23 Normand Racing 23-S-48 23-S-49

Michael,

23-S-25 was ex USA about 20 years ago maybe a bit less , bought in and restored very correctly
by Brian Wilson , without digging out file , was at one stage owned by a serving FBI agent which made
contact challenging apparently.

Bryan Miller.

So that's why I can't find a copy of the book , work in progress.

Bryan

Thanks for that, must have been interesting!

Michael

Vince,

That's an interesting thought but it was the 'raced in two events' bit which made me think the McLean car could not be 23-S-98, as to my knowledge it only did one race in 1963, the Autosport 3 hrs at Snetterton at the end of the season. But otherwise it would fit in well with the description... Perhaps it did another smaller race that we just don't know about? It is unlikely to be either of the other two cars as they were raced extensively (eg much more than two events) throughout 1963.

Michael

Hello r. atlos

My Lotus 23 ( EX. Behnke, Hurler, Floth , Lotterschmidt and Sebbach ) had a badge on the frame between the seats with the number MK23/9 !
Behnke says : The car comes to germany in 1965 with a 1100ccm Cosy and a Renault box.
Any new informations about the car ?
Why the number was MK23/9 and no S - Number ?
Is the car a real Lotus 23 oe a early fake ?

regards Karl

Hi Karl-Heinz - good to hear from you ! How is progress on your 23 or is still your RP9 first priority ?

I have not done much on my Lotus files in recent times but there is one thing for sure: The German history of your car is continously documented from at least 1966 onwards. That's not what I call a fake !

Ok, it did not look like a 23 in the end when it was in the hand of Lotterschmid (1971) or Sebbach (from 1972 onwards) but that's what many many sister cars suffered from, as well. If it was #23-S-09 (as your chassis tag says) it would have been the first car of Irish racer Billy Bradshaw but I am still missing the link how it got to Germany. However, where I get increasingly confused is whether we are talking about the Lotus chassis number or the frame number.

(One of the reasons is the discussion here around 23-S-04 which I have in my files as being a car having been in Germany in 1972 in the hands of Winkler with Porsche engine [and bodied like a KMW] and having subsequently moved to Pedrazza and further on.)

Back to your car: From the bits and pieces that Behnke had offered or sought I would suggest that it definately came here in 1965 or 1966 with a Colotti gearbox. I have small ads on file where Behnke offered it for sale with this 'box (July 1967 - but without engine) and where he has been seeking a Hewland (March 1966).

At one point in March 1968 (half a year or so after he sold the car to Karl Hurler) he has also offered a special three valve head conversion for a Kent engine. Has that been on the car when he bought it ?

May be all this gives some hints to our fellow members. One of the awful things when interviewing German or Continental drivers about the origin of their 2nd hand cars is when you ask them whom they bought it from: "From England ...."

Edited by r.atlos, 05 February 2011 - 23:43.

Presumably the number on Karl Heinz chassis means it is the 9th Lotus 23 chassis made by that particular chassis maker - it is a frame number, not a chassis number.
Normally the 9th Arch Motors chassis would have said AM9 in that spot.
So, did anyone other than Arch Motors make Lotus 23 chassis?
Did Lotus have their usual falling out with a supplier during the manufacture of 23s and change supplier at some time?

Lotus ordered chassis in batches from an outside supplier and then built them up into cars, so there is no exact correlation between the frame number and the chassis number (but there might be a record of which chassis had which frame), but it is fair to assume that a low chassis number would have used a low frame number since they arrived in small batches rather than 130 in one go - unless they changed suppliers part way through and the frame numbers started from 1 again...

So whether K-H's chassis is an early one would depend on when Lotus first used the manufacturer of his chassis...

There were of course other ways of obtaining Lotus chassis, going direct to the manufacturer and avoiding paying Lotus's mark up for example, but it would seem unlikely that such chassis would have been numbered!

Did Lotus make some of their own chassis to begin with. They must have made the first one and if there was an instant iorder book it may well have made sense for them to make the first few whilst waiting for Arch Motors to gear up.

We have here in Australia ,and it has been since late 1960's with a letter confirming the car's
origins FRAME # 23-S-23 , built by Frank Coltman at Progress Chassis for a Fiat car dealership
owner in the U.K. the car came to Australia circa 1968/9 and due to an owner many years ago
trying to prove [ badly] that is was 23-S-23 on the dash plate , he simply didn't understand , causing
a lot of hair tearing as the proper 23-S-23 went to Canada I believe.
That particular car with that frame number would not have had a chassis plate on dash ever ,one suspects.

So we have , Arch Motors , Progress Chassis , were Racing Frames doing Lotus chassis ?? , maybe Buckler
as they did early Brabham chassis , anybody know /suspect anyone else.

Bryan Miller.

We have here in Australia ,and it has been since late 1960's with a letter confirming the car's
origins FRAME # 23-S-23 , built by Frank Coltman at Progress Chassis for a Fiat car dealership
owner in the U.K. the car came to Australia circa 1968/9 and due to an owner many years ago
trying to prove [ badly] that is was 23-S-23 on the dash plate , he simply didn't understand , causing
a lot of hair tearing as the proper 23-S-23 went to Canada I believe.
That particular car with that frame number would not have had a chassis plate on dash ever ,one suspects.

So we have , Arch Motors , Progress Chassis , were Racing Frames doing Lotus chassis ?? , maybe Buckler
as they did early Brabham chassis , anybody know /suspect anyone else.

Bryan Miller.

I have it on good authority that 'Tom the Weld' - real name I believe Roy Thomas, now, sadly, no longer with us - produced Lotus 23 copies, which may explain some cars appearing that were not listed in the customer records or which could be accounted for by ownership changes...

Wondering if any one knows the chassis number of the Lotus 23B Chris Goodwin was driving at the Goodwood Revival this year ?

The white with two thin red stripes #22 entry appears to carry a registration number "T 22222" front and back which is unlike any UK or European registration I recall seeing and is not recorded on HPI, does this allude to a story about it's past ?

Relevant answers may be credited and used in a forth coming blog, thanking you in anticipation of your answers.

That's an Innsbruck registration ("T" for "Tyrol") and it appeared on the 23 of Alban Scheiber in 1963.

That's an Innsbruck registration ("T" for "Tyrol") and it appeared on the 23 of Alban Scheiber in 1963.

Thanks Lutz

Now if only the car had carried an 'A' on the back I might have guessed, thinking about it of course the red stripes were a bit of a give away

On racingsportscars.com Alban is shown as competing on 3 Hill Climbs with a Lotus 23 entered by 'OASC', afraid I was still in shorts and not yet at school in 1963 would you happen to know what OASC stands for Oestreiches Auto Sport Club perhaps ?

Edited by arttidesco, 28 November 2011 - 02:00.

Peter Lipskis recently posted this video mini-bio of the late Bob McLean:



Sadly, Bob's widow Kathie, who appears on the video, passed away earlier this year from cancer.

Just past the three-minute mark on the video, there is a brief video clip of a Lotus 23 being unloaded from a ship, presumably Bob's before it was repainted in Rob Walker colours. Does this give any clue as to who drove it in the UK in 1963 before Bob got it early in 1964, and which chassis it was?

Vince H.

On racingsportscars.com Alban is shown as competing on 3 Hill Climbs with a Lotus 23 entered by 'OASC', afraid I was still in shorts and not yet at school in 1963 would you happen to know what OASC stands for Oestreiches Auto Sport Club perhaps ?

Correct, ÖASC stands for Österreichischer Automobil-Sport-Club. They organised among other events the airfield races in Aspern (near Vienna) and Innsbruck and often also acted as entrants for Austrian and foreign drivers.

Alban Scheiber used to run a very successful hotel business (and still does today with his two sons) which explains why his presence on circuits and hills was sparse and in-between. I think his 23 passed on to Toni Fischhaber at one point and was one of three 23s used by him with BMW power.

Edited by r.atlos, 28 November 2011 - 22:34.

Correct, ÖASC stands for Österreichischer Automobil-Sport-Club. They organised among other events the airfield races in Aspern (near Vienna) and Innsbruck and often also acted as entrants for Austrian and foreign drivers.

Alban Scheiber used to run a very successful hotel business (and still does today with his two sons) which explains why his presence on circuits and hills was sparse and in-between. I think his 23 passed on to Toni Fischhaber at one point and was one of three 23s used by him with BMW power.

Thanks for the ÖASC clarification Lutz

I noticed a lot of references to an alpine ski resort when I googled Alban.

I found two pictures of Alban in Lotus 23's one with the distinctive T22222 bodywork the other with dark body work and cut out rear wheel arches at Ollan Villars in 1965.

I notice the car Chris Goodwin drove is Ford powered on the entry list.



Does anyone have a chassis number for either the Scheiber car and or the Goodwin car ?

Peter Lipskis recently posted this video mini-bio of the late Bob McLean:



Sadly, Bob's widow Kathie, who appears on the video, passed away earlier this year from cancer.

Just past the three-minute mark on the video, there is a brief video clip of a Lotus 23 being unloaded from a ship, presumably Bob's before it was repainted in Rob Walker colours. Does this give any clue as to who drove it in the UK in 1963 before Bob got it early in 1964, and which chassis it was?

Vince H.

Hi Vince

Good spot! It could be the car delivered to hillclimber Betty Haig with a twin-cam in light blue on 20/02/63. Although she hillclimbed it at places like Shelsley Walsh and Prescott during 1963, she didn't get on with the car and exchanged it for an Elan because she 'had no time to race it in the 1964 season'. So it went back to Lotus in 1964, perhaps to be driven on occasion by a works driver? Not much I know... It has a distinctive colour scheme with those white stripes and the aluminium on the top of the rear bodywork, so hopefully someone should be able to ID it.

Michael

I found two pictures of Alban in Lotus 23's one with the distinctive T22222 bodywork the other with dark body work and cut out rear wheel arches at Ollan Villars in 1965.

[...]

Does anyone have a chassis number for either the Scheiber car and or the Goodwin car ?

I think the white (and original) Scheiber car of 1963 was 23-S-68, originally delivered through Walter Schatz in Austria. It must have passed on to Toni Fischhaber late in 1963 for the 1964 season.

The "dark" one from Ollon - Villars 1965 is a different one in my view, as one other ex-Fischhaber car seems to have gone back to Scheiber "some years later". This is thought to be 23-S-114.

Very interesting. However, Bob McLean received his Lotus 23B early in 1964...his first race in it was in April of 1964. So would it be the same one? If so, I wonder what the chassis number was, and if it is still around.

Vince H.

Hi Vince

Good spot! It could be the car delivered to hillclimber Betty Haig with a twin-cam in light blue on 20/02/63. Although she hillclimbed it at places like Shelsley Walsh and Prescott during 1963, she didn't get on with the car and exchanged it for an Elan because she 'had no time to race it in the 1964 season'. So it went back to Lotus in 1964, perhaps to be driven on occasion by a works driver? Not much I know... It has a distinctive colour scheme with those white stripes and the aluminium on the top of the rear bodywork, so hopefully someone should be able to ID it.

Michael

Very interesting. However, Bob McLean received his Lotus 23B early in 1964...his first race in it was in April of 1964. So would it be the same one? If so, I wonder what the chassis number was, and if it is still around.

Vince H.

Well, I suppose the wording leaves some room for interpretation, in that she could have decided towards the end of 1963 that she wasn't going to have time to race the car in 1964 and the deal to swap the 23 for an Elan was done then...

I think the white (and original) Scheiber car of 1963 was 23-S-68, originally delivered through Walter Schatz in Austria. It must have passed on to Toni Fischhaber late in 1963 for the 1964 season.

The "dark" one from Ollon - Villars 1965 is a different one in my view, as one other ex-Fischhaber car seems to have gone back to Scheiber "some years later". This is thought to be 23-S-114.

Thanks Lutz

I found two pictures of Alban in Lotus 23's one with the distinctive T22222 bodywork ...

I must admit that the Austrian Lotus webpage in your link has mislead me for ages, believing that their caption was right and that registration T22.222 was that of Alban Scheiber's 23 - until recently when I stumbled across a race number that did not fit ...

After some careful checking with other period shots I now need to correct my earlier statement above: Alban Scheiber had registration T13.080 on his 23 while T22.222 was that of Walter Schatz.

The confusion may probably come from the fact that both ran a white 23 with two red stripes in 1963 ! It was only from 1964 onwards that Walter Schatz changed his colour scheme to a navy blue with one single white center stripe.

Edited by r.atlos, 04 December 2011 - 17:42.

I must admit that the Austrian Lotus webpage in your link has mislead me for ages, believing that their caption was right and that registration T22.222 was that of Alban Scheiber's 23 - until recently when I stumbled across a race number that did not fit ...

After some careful checking with other period shots I now need to correct my earlier statement above: Alban Scheiber had registration T13.080 on his 23 while T22.222 was that of Walter Schatz.

The confusion may probably come from the fact that both ran a white 23 with two red stripes in 1963 ! It was only from 1964 onwards that Walter Schatz changed his colour scheme to a navy blue with one single white center stripe.

Interesting, Lutz. I don't have my records to hand (always dangerous!) but is that not because in 1963, they were both entered under the guise of the OAMTC? So the Goodwin car has the wrong registration, then?

For those interested in Austrian Lotus 23s, here are some stunning color photos of a nasty bunch of them against the Abarth works team at the 1965 Aspern Donau-Pokal :

http://www.technisch.../articleid/2406

Olav

Do you have a date for when Hildebrand made his first race appearance with his car? I guess the car could have been bought after Clark drove it at the Autosport 3hrs at Snetterton in 1963? Normand ran three cars - 23-S-48, 23-S-49 and 23-S-98 that day, I believe.

When did Cees Fokke Bosch buy the car from him and how long did he own the car for? Does he remember to whom (or which country/continent) he sold it?

Michael

Tonio never owned the car, he drove it. My father bought the car from Colin Chapman and Tonio raced it for the Lonertex racing team. I have a foto here of my father and Tonio in the car after a race on Zandvoort. Cardo Nerden

Tonio never owned the car, he drove it. My father bought the car from Colin Chapman and Tonio raced it for the Lonertex racing team. I have a foto here of my father and Tonio in the car after a race on Zandvoort. Cardo Nerden

If I find out how I'll post the foto here.

Tonio never owned the car, he drove it. My father bought the car from Colin Chapman and Tonio raced it for the Lonertex racing team. I have a foto here of my father and Tonio in the car after a race on Zandvoort. Cardo Nerden

 

Thanks Cardo, would be very interested to see the photo! And also to know when he bought it. If there are any documents giving chassis number etc that would be very useful too...

Coupe Benelux, Zandvoort, 7 July 1963:

 

Firmin Dauwe (ex-Belgian Motorcycle Champion) #27:

 

https://library.revs...pe-benelux/2353

 

https://library.revs...upe-benelux/902

 

https://library.revs...upe-benelux/255

 

Tonio Hildebrand, #30:

 

https://library.revs...upe-benelux/114

 

Note distinctive twin rear-view mirrors. (The owner was Loek Nerden.)

I can find no evidence that the Normand cars ever ran with two mirrors. 

Note matching mirrors here:

 

https://library.revs...-1000-km/194156

 

Namur Hill Climb, Sunday 29 September 1963

The main excitement of the day was the

sports car classes, particularly class 2. Class 1

was won by a Lotus 23B, driven by Walter

Schatz. Firmin Dauwe put up a magnificent

time in a 1.6 Lotus 23B to win class 2. His

time 1 min. 29.6 secs. was only 0.6 sec. slower

than Peter Westbury's time. Second place

went to the new Belgian Champion "Beurlys".

also in a Lotus 23B.

Autosport, 25 October 1963, Page 586

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 29 January 2023 - 13:29.

NORMAND LIMITED

(Racing Division)

Offer for sale their outstanding

1962 LOTUS 23

This car, driven by Mike Beckwith, is

undoubtedly the fastest 1100, holding

current lap records at

Silverstone Club, 1m 6.2

Silverstone G.P., 1m 44.8

Goodwood, 1m 30.6         

Oulton Park, 1m 48.2 

Snetterton, 1m 42.4

Castle Combe, 1m 14.6

Also secured 21 wins and Overall

Winner/Sports Racing Cars in ihe

"Autosport" Championship of 1962.

Maintenance has been carried out

regardless of cost and is now prepared

ready to race, complete with trans-

porter ard a wide variety of spares.

ENQUIRIES from genuine interested

parties.

M. BECKWITH,

c/o Normand Limited,

Cumberland Avenue,

PARK ROYAL,

London. N.W.10.

Autosport, 19 October 1962, Page 561

 

The car was sold to Robin McArthur, who lent it back to Mike Beckwith "to score another win and set up another class lap record at Brands Hatch on Boxing Day." 

 

LOTUS "23". Ex Mike Beckwith/ Robin

McArthur. Respray to customer's choice.

Converted Dormobile for towing also for sale.

—79 Abingdon Road, W.8. Phone: WEStern

9811.

Autosport, 22 November 1963, Page 723

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 28 January 2023 - 08:07.

Zandvoort, 3 June 1963:

"Ben Pon, (and not Tonio Hildebrand in the Lotus 23, which Jim Clark was driving last year), winner of the big race in the National Races of the Dutch Motorsport Association"

"The final piece yesterday afternoon was the great violence of the sports cars, with the showpiece being the Lotus 23, once owned by Jim Clark, now belonging to the Van Racing Team in Zandvoort and driven by Tonio Hildebrand."

Het vrije volk, Tuesday 4 June 1963

Hildebrand was driving #83.

 

Zandvoort, 23 June 1963:

Hildebrand, Lotus 23, wins the support race at the Dutch Grand Prix. 33 mins 13.6 secs. Fastest lap: 1m 45.4 sec.

Hildebrand was driving #69.

 

Coupe Benelux, Zandvoort, 7 July 1963:

(see above)

Sportwagen boven 1000 cc: 1. Hildebrand, Lotus 23, 18.22.6 (136.901 km); 2. Firmin Douwe (B) Lotus 18.52.7.

Tonio Hildebrand, #30; Firmin Douwe #27.

 

Zandvoort Trophy, 2 September 1963:

Tonio Hildebrand, Lotus 23, appeared at the races, but was unplaced due to a startline infraction.

 

These presumably are the advertised "four races this season only" referenced at post #15?

The case for Hildebrand racing two Lotus 23s remains open.

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 31 January 2023 - 05:30.

Zandvoort, Sunday 21 June 1964

Vrije formule wagens:

1. Tonio Hildebrand, Lotus 23 37.01.2=135.915 km per urur;

2. R. P. Anderson, Lotus 7 in 37.07.6;

3. R. J. Deinum, Lotus 23.

Snelste ronde Hildebrand 1.46.8=141.336 km per uur.

 

Coupe Benelux, Zandvoort, Sunday 5 July 1964

Sportwagens boven 1000 cc: 1. Tonio Hildebrand, Lotus 23 22.11.4 (136.050).

 

Zandvoort, Sunday 19 July 1964

Tonio Hildebrand was the fastest around the circuit in the free formula race with his Lotus 23 (1098 cc), but the battle was devalued here, because Jan Deken already sent his faster Lotus 27 into the sand of the Tarzan corner in the second lap. For Hildebrand there was then no longer any obstacle to victory. In the sixth lap he was threatened by Dudok van Heel with a DKW, but when Hildebrand pressed the accelerator a little deeper, Dudok van Heel also fell far behind.

Vrije formulewagens: 1. Hildebrand (Lotus 23) 34.11.2 (132.422 km/u.), 2. Dudok van Heel (DKW Special).

Hildebrand was driving #58*, a light coloured, possibly white Lotus 23, with three stripes, one central wider, two narrow each side. Light coloured helmet, narrow centre stripe. Deken was #57.

Picture: De Volkskrant, 20 July 1964.

*See post #68.

 

Photograph light coloured Lotus 23, with stripes, #2 in Angola 1964, Nieuwe Haarlemsche courant, 22 December 1964. Photo caption: "The low white car is the well-known Lotus seen on the back left Tonio Hildebrand with Loek Nerden next to him. The photo was taken in Angola, judging by the palms in the background." The car is not on the front row, there is #12 Porsche 904 alongside (Gerhard Koch).

Also at Grote Prijs van Uganda, Rob Slotemaker and Tonio Hildebrand, Porsche GT, Holland Racing Team.

 

Zandvoort, Monday 25 April 1966

Vrije Formule: 1. #2 R. J. Deinum, Lotus 23, 24.10.6, gem. 135,277 km/u. 2. #7 A. C. Keyzer, Lotus Super Seven.

R. J. Deinum a Suzuki dealer in 1990. 

 

RGDS RLT 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 29 January 2023 - 13:04.

Singapore Sprint, 19 January 1964:

SINGAPORE Mon. — Alan

Bond, driving world

champion Jim Clark's former

Lotus 23 for the first time,

did not risk driving flat out

in the rain-marred Old Up-

per Thomson Road Sprint

yesterday, but was good

enough to win a "double."

Bond won the the 1101 to 1600 cc

event for sports cars in 55.68sec.

and the 1501 cc and over event for

sports cars in 54.32sec. Bond was

placed third in the unlimited class

event won by Mike Cook.

The Straits Times, 21 January 1964, Page 17

 

Bond's car identified as a Lotus 23B — The Straits Times, 30 March 1964, Page 18.

 

The proliferation of ex-Jim Clark cars may have a grain of truth as it is possible he drove all three Normand cars from 1963, plus the #84 Nurburgring car, also in North America. At the Snetterton 3-hours, on 28 September 1963, Clark was to be provided "with a new Lotus 23B" — Autocar, 20 September 1963, Page 541. "Two of the 23s have been sold and the remaining one is in the team's workshop in Hammersmith" — Autosport, 29 November 1963, Page 735.

 

 

One Lotus 23B had gone to Singapore — what happened to the other cars?

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 03 February 2023 - 13:35.

For Lotus 23s in Asia and Normand photos go here:

 

https://rewind-media...otus23-in-asia/

 

There were three Lotus 23s at the Japanese Grand Prix, Suzuka, 3rd-4th May 1963.

1st) Peter Warr, 2nd) Mike Knight, 3rd) Arthur Owen.

 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/peter-warr-of-great-britain-and-driver-of-the-lotus-23b-news-photo/712823533

 

Later: https://www.imago-images.com/sp/0043576461?__hstc=52317686.2f3f33a24b44870ec4a577029c49e44b.1659139200246.1659139200247.1659139200248.1&__hssc=52317686.1.1659139200249&__hsfp=2727673963

 

https://youtu.be/Y2cD1f8UJ94

 

Peter Warr in Normand colours at Suzuka?

Did the Normand team compete elsewhere on the weekend 4-5 May 1963?

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 21 July 2023 - 10:49.

Japanese Grand Prix, Suzuka, 3rd-4th May 1963

The winning

Lotus had an experimental Cosworth

engine of 1,650 c.c. with pushrods, the

second-place car a Cosworth 1,098 c.c.

Ford unit and the third place car a

Cosworth-tuned "normal" 1,594 c.c.

twin-overhead camshaft engine.

Autocar, 17 May 1963, Page 868

 

RGDS RLT